0:00:06 > 0:00:09The former Tory Chancellor Ken Clarke has seen political crisis
0:00:09 > 0:00:11after political crisis and watched Prime Ministers come and go,
0:00:11 > 0:00:15so what's his answer to the question of the Irish border and Brexit?
0:00:15 > 0:00:18Tonight on The View, we ask him how, or even if,
0:00:18 > 0:00:24that circle can be squared.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44He's a veteran of many political battles over 47 years as an MP.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Now, following the referendum, he's found himself out of step
0:00:46 > 0:00:48with many in his own party.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51Ken Clarke, a Remainer rebel at Westminster,
0:00:51 > 0:01:00has urged the government to row back from a hard Brexit.
0:01:00 > 0:01:05You can leave the EU and keep the best free trade deal that we have
0:01:05 > 0:01:10with anybody in the world, with our most important and biggest market.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Do that, you solve the Irish border problem.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16Also on the programme tonight: With no Irish nationalist voice
0:01:16 > 0:01:18at Westminster and with Stormont in limbo, is the House of Commons
0:01:18 > 0:01:25in danger of becoming too one-sided in favour of unionists?
0:01:25 > 0:01:28The government itself has a duty to be an honest broker and a neutral
0:01:28 > 0:01:30arbiter.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32I'll be asking two of our MPs for their views
0:01:32 > 0:01:33on the democratic deficit.
0:01:33 > 0:01:38And back again with their thoughts on another week of political twists
0:01:38 > 0:01:46and turns are columnists Fionnuala O'Connor and Alex Kane.
0:01:46 > 0:01:47Hello.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49His picture was splashed on the front page of
0:01:49 > 0:01:51the Daily Telegraph yesterday.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53Ken Clarke was one of 15 Tory rebels labelled the Brexit mutineers
0:01:53 > 0:01:56over their plans to join forces with Labour to block
0:01:56 > 0:01:58measures to enshrine the date for Brexit in law.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01When I spoke to Mr Clarke earlier, I began by asking him why he's
0:02:01 > 0:02:04opposed to the date - 11pm on 29th March,
0:02:04 > 0:02:072019 to be precise - being included in Westminster
0:02:07 > 0:02:13legislation?
0:02:13 > 0:02:17Anybody who knows anything about the negotiations will know that it is
0:02:17 > 0:02:23silly. You do not need it because Article 50 has set the date for
0:02:23 > 0:02:28leading. To suddenly make it Rajesh law that you have to leave at a
0:02:28 > 0:02:37precise minute -- British law on the evening of the 29th of March, that
0:02:37 > 0:02:40is quite unnecessary and for people who have to do the work of drawing
0:02:40 > 0:02:45up a new order, it could be very damaging because international
0:02:45 > 0:02:49negotiations, not just in Europe, if they come up against deadlines of
0:02:49 > 0:02:53this kind, they sometimes go over because of everyone is reasonable
0:02:53 > 0:02:57and that in a few more days or weeks you could sort this out then you can
0:02:57 > 0:03:04stop the clock and you just go on. To have the time rigidly fixed so
0:03:04 > 0:03:08you have no Deal and it has collapsed on that particular minute
0:03:08 > 0:03:12just so you can get a good headline in the Daily Telegraph is an
0:03:12 > 0:03:16unnecessary thing to do and my guess is, it is only a guess, I don't
0:03:16 > 0:03:20know, my guess is that people in the Foreign Office and the Brexit offers
0:03:20 > 0:03:23have been bombarding Number ten and asking why they have tabled this and
0:03:23 > 0:03:28this must be got rid of.You are now firmly cast in the role of Tory
0:03:28 > 0:03:32rebel and you mention that in the house on Tuesday. Some see you as
0:03:32 > 0:03:37the de facto Leader of the Opposition. How does that say with
0:03:37 > 0:03:41you?It is very surprisingly cos I have been an establishment man for
0:03:41 > 0:03:45the last 50 years and I joke with the people who are now the Tory
0:03:45 > 0:03:48establishment, I won't tell you which one, but a very hard-line
0:03:48 > 0:03:53Eurosceptic, a friend of mine and I have respect for his views, he was a
0:03:53 > 0:03:57Maastricht rebel and I was a minister in favour of liberal
0:03:57 > 0:03:59economic policies and social liberalism and very pro-European and
0:03:59 > 0:04:08I was the establishment then and he was the rebel now we have the other
0:04:08 > 0:04:11way round and I am the rebel and he is the voice of orthodoxy and I just
0:04:11 > 0:04:14stick to the policies of the Conservative Party until the last 18
0:04:14 > 0:04:18months I find myself rebel. It is more fun being a rebel but it is a
0:04:18 > 0:04:23strange thing that has happened because of the Europe issue that has
0:04:23 > 0:04:26produced this topsy-turvy catastrophe really in the political
0:04:26 > 0:04:30system of the United Kingdom.There is a very particular concern in
0:04:30 > 0:04:35certain quarters on this side of the Irish key -- Irish Sea about what
0:04:35 > 0:04:40Brexit might mean for Ireland, north and south. Do you get a feeling that
0:04:40 > 0:04:44David Davies, Liam Fox and Theresa May understand that?I think they
0:04:44 > 0:04:48understand it. I have not met anyone yet from either side of the Irish
0:04:48 > 0:04:54Sea or on the continent who has the answer to it. I am sure David Davis
0:04:54 > 0:05:01profoundly sincerely, as is Theresa May, when they say they do not want
0:05:01 > 0:05:04to reintroduce a fixed border between Northern Ireland and the
0:05:04 > 0:05:10South and at the same time no one knows how you do that because if in
0:05:10 > 0:05:15two different countries, which is what they are, you have different
0:05:15 > 0:05:18customs rules and different market regulations and different
0:05:18 > 0:05:23immigration rules on both sides of the border, you have to do have a
0:05:23 > 0:05:28fixed border. The position of the government is perfectly sincere and
0:05:28 > 0:05:32it is totally contradictory. It is baffling people in Belfast, Dublin
0:05:32 > 0:05:36and Brussels, trying to find a solution to that.When James
0:05:36 > 0:05:50Brokenshire says, and he said it many times, that he doesn't want
0:05:54 > 0:05:57to see a return to the boards of the past and he does want to see a
0:05:57 > 0:05:59seamless, frictionless border, you are saying you can't work out at
0:05:59 > 0:06:02this stage how that is deliverable? Yes. I am sure James believes that.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05I believe in him strongly, for what it matters. I am also sure that he,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08like me, hasn't a clue how you are going to do that. If the British
0:06:08 > 0:06:10government sticks to its present position, which has no relation to
0:06:10 > 0:06:13the referendum, it wasn't what we were told in the referendum, that we
0:06:13 > 0:06:15are not only leaving the European Union but apparently we are pulling
0:06:15 > 0:06:18out of the single market and a customs union and the answer to me
0:06:18 > 0:06:20seems to be perfectly obvious, the public didn't vote to leave the
0:06:20 > 0:06:26single market or the customs union and you can leave the EU and keep
0:06:26 > 0:06:32the best free trade deal that we have with anybody in the world who
0:06:32 > 0:06:38are our most important and biggest market. Do that, you solve the Irish
0:06:38 > 0:06:42border problem.Your solution would be for Northern Ireland certainly to
0:06:42 > 0:06:46remain the customs union and the single market.I would like the
0:06:46 > 0:06:50entire United Kingdom two but that would be a fallback position and
0:06:50 > 0:06:55obviously in the interests of the Northern Ireland. It is plain as a
0:06:55 > 0:07:02pike staff to me.You do not need telling that the Unionists, such as
0:07:02 > 0:07:05the DUP, are supporting Theresa May and they want nothing to do with
0:07:05 > 0:07:09that scenario.The majority -- the majority of the Ulster people, if I
0:07:09 > 0:07:13was to use the language of the triumphalist Remainers, the voice of
0:07:13 > 0:07:17the people in Northern Ireland told them that they did they voted for
0:07:17 > 0:07:20remain. I would be irritated by the fact that we were having to operate
0:07:20 > 0:07:25a customs border between two parts of the United Kingdom and I am a
0:07:25 > 0:07:29perfectly fervent unionist myself, I Ulster says stay in the United
0:07:29 > 0:07:33Kingdom so it would be slightly idiotic in a way if we had to have a
0:07:33 > 0:07:38customs border along the Irish Sea but I think the southern Irish would
0:07:38 > 0:07:44be entitled to say that it is self-inflicted, isn't it? It is what
0:07:44 > 0:07:49you appear to have decided out is what you have to do because you help
0:07:49 > 0:07:51the referendum.Unionists would say and many are said to me and
0:07:51 > 0:07:55interviews in the past few months that that is not on the agenda
0:07:55 > 0:07:59because it was a UK wide referendum on wild Northern Ireland may have
0:07:59 > 0:08:03voted to remain, it is the UK vote that trumps the Northern Ireland
0:08:03 > 0:08:13vote.Didn't decide any of these details at all. If you think they
0:08:13 > 0:08:14were campaigning in the countryside in Nottinghamshire, which I
0:08:14 > 0:08:17represent, where you should have the border with the Republic of Ireland,
0:08:17 > 0:08:22when we left the European Union, that is nonsense. Nobody was told,
0:08:22 > 0:08:26when anybody mentioned leaving the single market the leaders were
0:08:26 > 0:08:32indignant, politics of fear. Boris Johnson told everybody that we would
0:08:32 > 0:08:35go on as normal and there wouldn't be any difference to how we trade
0:08:35 > 0:08:39with the outside world. It is only since the referendum and nothing to
0:08:39 > 0:08:43do with the referendum that these zealots have decided that they
0:08:43 > 0:08:47actually want to pull out of the single market and the customs union
0:08:47 > 0:08:52and the border problem in Northern Ireland, the supreme importance of
0:08:52 > 0:08:58keeping a settlement in place in Northern Ireland and keeping peace
0:08:58 > 0:09:01in Northern Ireland is probably the single biggest and most important
0:09:01 > 0:09:05reason why it would be preferable for the United Kingdom as a whole to
0:09:05 > 0:09:09stay in the single market and the customs union. If the Brexiteers and
0:09:09 > 0:09:13these right-wing nationalists will not allow us to do that then the
0:09:13 > 0:09:17best solution, I agree with the Taoiseach actually, is to have a
0:09:17 > 0:09:22border through the Irish Sea.You say that you believe that the police
0:09:22 > 0:09:27process -- peace process and stability in Northern Ireland is in
0:09:27 > 0:09:31peril...That is exaggerated. There is such a desire for peace in
0:09:31 > 0:09:33Northern Ireland and it would be impossible to devise a better
0:09:33 > 0:09:38settlement in the short time medium future so the people in Ulster will
0:09:38 > 0:09:41work very hard to make sure that a border does not wreck the peace
0:09:41 > 0:09:46process. I may have been overdramatising it, but I just think
0:09:46 > 0:09:53it is so important that there is a name that every British politician
0:09:53 > 0:09:56shares that we showed if possible, if at all possible, stick with an
0:09:56 > 0:10:03open border without new controls. Simon Coveney has been criticised
0:10:03 > 0:10:08for having too much to say that the UK's handling of the Brexit
0:10:08 > 0:10:12negotiations but do you think the Irish government, which is the only
0:10:12 > 0:10:18country with an land boards are, do they have the right to talk about
0:10:18 > 0:10:22Brexit game of course they do. It is their border. They are the EU
0:10:22 > 0:10:29country most likely to be affected by this all going wrong.United
0:10:29 > 0:10:33Kingdom will suffer the most damage if these negotiations collapse but
0:10:33 > 0:10:38it won't do the Irish Republic any good either and they obviously have
0:10:38 > 0:10:42an entirely legitimate interest to express views on all of this. They
0:10:42 > 0:10:49are probably right to put it so high on the agenda so early in the
0:10:49 > 0:10:52process in the negotiations.I just want to end on the special
0:10:52 > 0:10:56relationship you have with the DUP, of course. I have already referred
0:10:56 > 0:11:01to it. Does it make it more difficult for some kind of special
0:11:01 > 0:11:05arrangement to be sold for Northern Ireland post-Brexit because your
0:11:05 > 0:11:11party is dependent on DUP votes to remain in government. Theresa May
0:11:11 > 0:11:16needs Nigel Dodds. That is the long and short of it, isn't it?Yes, but
0:11:16 > 0:11:20it is a very precise agreement. Nigel Dodds has signed up to
0:11:20 > 0:11:25supporters on Brexit and Finance bills and budget decisions. They are
0:11:25 > 0:11:30an extremely important voice in whole question so I don't think it
0:11:30 > 0:11:36is just linked to our dependence on their votes. Ireland is, the big
0:11:36 > 0:11:45issues in Ireland go beyond that. In deciding what we are able to do and
0:11:45 > 0:11:49keep an open border on the island of Ireland, you have to listen to the
0:11:49 > 0:11:56DUP.I happy enough to listen to the DUP more generally, or do you see it
0:11:56 > 0:12:00as a case of the DUP whacking the Tory dog in all of this?The deal
0:12:00 > 0:12:02with the DUP is giving the government a better majority on
0:12:02 > 0:12:09things like the budget and they are signed up to giving us a majority on
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Brexit, so they would be breaking their deal if they pulled out of
0:12:12 > 0:12:18that voted against anything on Brexit but this is a serious issue
0:12:18 > 0:12:22that needs to be taken more seriously than that. It is in the
0:12:22 > 0:12:26interests of everybody in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United
0:12:26 > 0:12:30Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland that we get a sensible
0:12:30 > 0:12:32agreement that does not jeopardise the perfectly good arrangements that
0:12:32 > 0:12:36we have at the moment with the invisible border, which is a big
0:12:36 > 0:12:42improvement on whether used to be. When you heard there was a £1
0:12:42 > 0:12:45billion deal struck between the DUP and your Conservative Party, how did
0:12:45 > 0:12:49you feel about that cash bonanza for Northern Ireland, given that you
0:12:49 > 0:12:56were a cautious, careful, some might say tightfisted Chancellor in your
0:12:56 > 0:13:00day?I wouldn't mind that description. I reflect on the fact
0:13:00 > 0:13:04that as long as I remember throughout my career negotiation has
0:13:04 > 0:13:07been absolutely a key part of the politics of Northern Ireland and on
0:13:07 > 0:13:12all sides in Northern Irish politics they are brilliant negotiators. They
0:13:12 > 0:13:18know how to get a good deal and I just hope that the British do rather
0:13:18 > 0:13:22batter in the negotiations in Europe.Maybe you should have Nigel
0:13:22 > 0:13:26Dodds on the negotiating table.He would be a valuable asset if he is
0:13:26 > 0:13:29on your side.
0:13:29 > 0:13:30Ken Clarke speaking to me earlier.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33And we'll be hearing at length from a leading pro-Brexit
0:13:33 > 0:13:34campaigner in the near future.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37Now, a Labour MP who comes from South Armagh says nationalists
0:13:37 > 0:13:39are facing a democratic deficit because they're not
0:13:39 > 0:13:40represented at Westminster and the Stormont Assembly
0:13:40 > 0:13:41is not sitting.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44Conor McGinn said debates this week on the budget were one-sided and not
0:13:44 > 0:13:46reflective of the wider community.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49So is he right, and if he is, what can be done about it?
0:13:49 > 0:13:57Here's Gareth Gordon.
0:13:57 > 0:14:04In South Armagh allegiances of the. 100% nationalist, or as near as
0:14:04 > 0:14:16makes no difference. The image of a hunger striker, and in keeping with
0:14:16 > 0:14:28policy, the MP does not take his seat.
0:14:28 > 0:14:34What you saw in the debates around the budget was that the work
0:14:34 > 0:14:38one-sided and they were not reflective of the wider community
0:14:38 > 0:14:47stop this father is a former Sinn Fein councillor.Conor sits in
0:14:47 > 0:14:56Parliament as the Labour MP.If we move closer to direct rule that will
0:14:56 > 0:14:59be reflected even further and that is not a tenable for sustainable
0:14:59 > 0:15:06position.Back in his home village claims of a democratic deficit are
0:15:06 > 0:15:11dismissed by a man, who like him, was once an MP and remains one of
0:15:11 > 0:15:18Sinn Fein's leading figures. For ten months Conor Murphy has been
0:15:18 > 0:15:21involved in fruitlessly cushy issuance with DUP aimed at restoring
0:15:21 > 0:15:36power sharing.Have influence. -- fruitless discussions with DUP. We
0:15:36 > 0:15:47have spent the last ten months trying to put the Agreement back. We
0:15:47 > 0:15:50will try to Bishoo that with both and in the near future. We want to
0:15:50 > 0:15:58see that happen. -- we will try to pursue that.That DUP with its
0:15:58 > 0:16:06growing influence.Sinn Fein, instead of coming to this House and
0:16:06 > 0:16:10taking their place in the Assembly, being in the executive, are dying in
0:16:10 > 0:16:22Dublin pleading with their political opponents. -- are in Dublin.If
0:16:22 > 0:16:28nationalists are worried about a democratic deficit, big are hiding
0:16:28 > 0:16:33it well, in election after election, they are turning to Sinn Fein in
0:16:33 > 0:16:44ever increasing numbers.
0:16:44 > 0:16:49Margaret Ritchie is a victim of the Sinn Fein surge, the former SDLP
0:16:49 > 0:16:56Peter lost her seat to the party. This should come together and look
0:16:56 > 0:17:01at this issue, look at the situation where people are not being
0:17:01 > 0:17:04adequately represented either at Westminster or with the lack of
0:17:04 > 0:17:13political situations. Joint sovereignty, joint authority,
0:17:13 > 0:17:18whereby both traditions in the north of Ireland can be adequately served
0:17:18 > 0:17:24as represented. Sinn Fein has another idea. It is the
0:17:24 > 0:17:26responsibility of both governments to look at the Good Friday
0:17:26 > 0:17:32Agreement, an intergovernmental conference.An intergovernmental
0:17:32 > 0:17:38conference.What is that? It was devised to fill in the gap that
0:17:38 > 0:17:42devolution feels. When devolution happened they put it into cold
0:17:42 > 0:17:48storage but Sinn Fein are trying to get the two governments to convene
0:17:48 > 0:17:52this and pass legislation which they seek their British are responsible
0:17:52 > 0:17:57for passing, such as an Irish line which act. What will happen?
0:17:57 > 0:18:02Nothing, because the Irish Government will not say they will
0:18:02 > 0:18:06demand a conference after the British to past such legislation
0:18:06 > 0:18:10because the British are likely to see, they mobbed the following
0:18:10 > 0:18:16things on the border for Brexit. Conor McGinn says the governor has
0:18:16 > 0:18:20to do something. Just because Sinn Fein MPs do not take their seats
0:18:20 > 0:18:24does not mean that the British Government can say they will not
0:18:24 > 0:18:30give a voice to nationalists. The Government has a duty to be a
0:18:30 > 0:18:33neutral arbiter and honest broker and reflect the concerns of the
0:18:33 > 0:18:41entire community in northern Ireland.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46A tricky question for any British governments, especially one which
0:18:46 > 0:18:49depends on the votes of the DUP for its survival.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51Gareth Gordon there, ending his report with
0:18:51 > 0:18:53Conor McGinn's take on what should happen next to counter
0:18:53 > 0:18:56the absence of a nationalist voice at Westminster.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58And there remain many questions around what should happen next
0:18:58 > 0:19:04as far as politics here is concerned - not least in the wake
0:19:04 > 0:19:07of the Northern Ireland budget being passed at Westminster this week.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10Joining me tonight from our Foyle studio are the DUP and Sinn Fein
0:19:10 > 0:19:13MPs, Gregory Campbell and Elisha McCallion.
0:19:13 > 0:19:21Thank you for joining us. Are you concerned that there is no
0:19:21 > 0:19:24nationalists voice currently being heard at Westminster?It is their
0:19:24 > 0:19:32choice. If Sinn Fein took a decision to bring down the Stormont Assembly,
0:19:32 > 0:19:44and to continue this Shabbat of not taking their seats at Westminster,
0:19:44 > 0:19:51-- this charade of not taking their seats, they know the outcome. When
0:19:51 > 0:19:55we went to negotiate with the Conservatives, we decided, despite a
0:19:55 > 0:20:00lot of people thinking that what we were about was a narrow agenda,
0:20:00 > 0:20:06responding to Sinn Fein's narrow agenda, we said no, look at this in
0:20:06 > 0:20:09an all-encompassing whistle that we try and advance the position in
0:20:09 > 0:20:13terms of health, education, infrastructure, so that everybody
0:20:13 > 0:20:19will win. This will be a genuine when - win and that is what we have
0:20:19 > 0:20:23tried to do. That nationalists, if they want to take their seats, their
0:20:23 > 0:20:28seats idea, it is a voluntary withdrawal from Westminster and
0:20:28 > 0:20:34Italy but bringing down of Stormont. If it is a democratic deficit, it is
0:20:34 > 0:20:38a self-inflicted one, because you are not taking your own seats, how
0:20:38 > 0:20:45is that good for democracy?Let us not lose sight of what happened in
0:20:45 > 0:20:49June this year. Clearly the electorate in large numbers turn
0:20:49 > 0:20:52their back on Westminster. Nationalists in the north have
0:20:52 > 0:20:58turned their back on Westminster for the first time since artesian. That
0:20:58 > 0:21:04is a sign as to where nationalists are. Look at what happened this week
0:21:04 > 0:21:08in terms of James Brokenshire producing the budget at Westminster.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12For any of your viewers who took the time to watch what happened there,
0:21:12 > 0:21:17he stood up to make his speech in quite an empty chamber, but the
0:21:17 > 0:21:20minute he began to speak about the budget, which was a significant
0:21:20 > 0:21:26thing for us in the north, the chamber empty, so the nonsense that
0:21:26 > 0:21:29there is anyone in the Westminster benchers, apart from those who
0:21:29 > 0:21:40either come from here, or who have any notion or any willingness to try
0:21:40 > 0:21:43and understand and deal with the issues of the Irish people as they
0:21:43 > 0:21:53nonsense.Do we take it you are rattles because the party is now
0:21:53 > 0:21:59calling for the meeting of the British- Irish intergovernmental
0:21:59 > 0:22:04conference, why?Because we believe that is the next step forward. There
0:22:04 > 0:22:08is provision for the conference in previous agreements. We believe that
0:22:08 > 0:22:12the British and Irish governments have responsibility and obligations
0:22:12 > 0:22:16in relation to ensuring that the rights of the people of all of this
0:22:16 > 0:22:21dozens of this island are adhered to. We spoke to the Irish Government
0:22:21 > 0:22:24yesterday, we will be meeting directly with the Visa me. That is
0:22:24 > 0:22:29what we do. When we need to speak to the British Government, we do not
0:22:29 > 0:22:33sit on empty backbenchers, we will go straight to the top, that is
0:22:33 > 0:22:37where we are going on Chiswick, we will be telling Theresa May quite
0:22:37 > 0:22:42firmly that direct rule is not an option. Direct rule is not an option
0:22:42 > 0:22:47for the north.You see it is not an option for Sinn Fein, but other
0:22:47 > 0:22:50option for the north, but if that happens there is nothing you can do
0:22:50 > 0:22:58about it.Of course there is. You are making the assumption that we
0:22:58 > 0:23:02have no influence in institutions. That is clearly not the case. Sinn
0:23:02 > 0:23:09Fein have the biggest mandate in Ireland. We have representation in
0:23:09 > 0:23:16the Dail, in Brussels, the north, and the speaking to those who have
0:23:16 > 0:23:20influence and London.You cannot stop direct rule if James
0:23:20 > 0:23:27Brokenshire appoints direct rule ministers.We can. It is called the
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Good Friday Agreement. Messages rocking chair is going to tear up
0:23:30 > 0:23:33the Good Friday Agreement in front of us of just what would happen if
0:23:33 > 0:23:39we went back to direct rule, that will not happen. It is naive to
0:23:39 > 0:23:47think that will happen.That is not what I sense at all. Would you be
0:23:47 > 0:23:51happy to see the British- Irish intergovernmental conference meeting
0:23:51 > 0:23:56in the near future? At last met in Dundalk in February 2000 and seven.
0:23:56 > 0:24:01Would you be relaxed about that? We would not see the point on it.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05People are crying out for delivery on the services that are suffering
0:24:05 > 0:24:15at the moment. Sinn Fein cannot have it both ways. She talks about
0:24:15 > 0:24:18pressure and meeting people, the last time she went to London she
0:24:18 > 0:24:29complained about the size of hotel room. To talk about empty benches,
0:24:29 > 0:24:35what we have got to do is work our way through the problems. There are
0:24:35 > 0:24:38difficult problems to get Stormont back in place, but we can do it. We
0:24:38 > 0:24:44are prepared to do it tomorrow. There are difficulties with the
0:24:44 > 0:24:47health service, education, roads infrastructure. Those things need
0:24:47 > 0:24:52attention. They can be better dealt with by locally appointed ministers.
0:24:52 > 0:25:01You have said it before on this programme. A couple of weeks ago,
0:25:01 > 0:25:08John O'Dowd said, this phase of the toxin is over, I'd be telling me it
0:25:08 > 0:25:14is back up and running I gain? Discussions are being held with Sinn
0:25:14 > 0:25:19Fein and ourselves and the need to come to a conclusion.Would you
0:25:19 > 0:25:24characterise that as the talks process continuing?You can
0:25:24 > 0:25:31categorise it in whatever way you choose. How do you categorise it?
0:25:31 > 0:25:35Discussions are continuing. Hopefully they can come to a
0:25:35 > 0:25:40successful conclusion. If they are sensible and rational then we can
0:25:40 > 0:25:45reach a sensible conclusion. We need to reach that conclusion because
0:25:45 > 0:25:48people are looking for those services to be delivered. That is
0:25:48 > 0:25:53what they are wanting. They do not want roads held up, they want their
0:25:53 > 0:25:58schools repaired, money got to teachers and nurses. We can deliver
0:25:58 > 0:26:02that through direct rule or devolved governments but our preference is
0:26:02 > 0:26:10for default Government.Let us get it set up. Can you clarify for me,
0:26:10 > 0:26:14is the talks process a live one or is it dormant as was suggested by
0:26:14 > 0:26:27John or died on this programme a couple of weeks ago? Which is at --
0:26:27 > 0:26:36macro Brasanac. As the toss process continuing.The
0:26:36 > 0:26:48current phase -- is the talks process continuing weak kneed that
0:26:48 > 0:26:54governments to move this on, unless there is a change in attitude we
0:26:54 > 0:27:01will not get match in terms of moving this former. We are seeing
0:27:01 > 0:27:08what we need now are the two Mac governments to step in. Integrity is
0:27:08 > 0:27:14a word that seems to be lost on the DUP. We need the integrity from both
0:27:14 > 0:27:19of those governments who have signed up to those previous agreements, to
0:27:19 > 0:27:24step in now, and not do what they DUP has done over the past them but
0:27:24 > 0:27:29of years, and not implement what they previously agreed in all the
0:27:29 > 0:27:33agreements. We need that to happen as a matter of course and that is
0:27:33 > 0:27:39what we will be telling Theresa May on Tuesday.Just to be clear, within
0:27:39 > 0:27:44Sinn Fein you are still clear to see the devolved decisions of stomach
0:27:44 > 0:27:50and running as soon as possible? Absolutely. We have said that from
0:27:50 > 0:27:57the outset. Nobody can say that Sinn Fein as a party was not the party
0:27:57 > 0:28:02that stretched itself year after year in order to see the
0:28:02 > 0:28:07institutions remain in place. Why? Because we believe in them and are
0:28:07 > 0:28:11committed to them. We are committed to their Good Friday Agreement but
0:28:11 > 0:28:17we will not take a deal. When Martin McGuinness resigned in January this
0:28:17 > 0:28:20year we said we would not return to the status quo. We need similar
0:28:20 > 0:28:26could change in terms of the DUP. There is that Sinn Fein conference
0:28:26 > 0:28:30this Saturday, DUP conference the following Saturday, when we get
0:28:30 > 0:28:35those out of the way it will be be a renewed talks process at the end of
0:28:35 > 0:28:40this year, start of next year, maybe with an external facilitator
0:28:40 > 0:28:46controlling how the process works on a day to day basis?Whatever the
0:28:46 > 0:28:50mechanism is, we need to get devolved governments back in place.
0:28:50 > 0:28:55It needs to be on a sustainable basis. The last thing people will
0:28:55 > 0:28:58want having come through all the month that we have been through is
0:28:58 > 0:29:04to try and put something together for a few months, and then somebody
0:29:04 > 0:29:08throws a fit again, and walks out another time, and brings the entire
0:29:08 > 0:29:14charade tumbling down. We need is to get it on a sustainable basis and
0:29:14 > 0:29:23deliver for people.We get that point. Conferences out of the way,
0:29:23 > 0:29:27end of this year, start of next year, independent cheer, will that
0:29:27 > 0:29:34break the deadlock?We are up for dialogue any day of the week but we
0:29:34 > 0:29:39need a shift in attitude. There is no point in going into discussions
0:29:39 > 0:29:45again with the DUP in the same position.A shift in Sinn Fein's
0:29:45 > 0:29:51attitudes?We were willing to negotiate with Mike Cooper Mac but
0:29:51 > 0:29:58let me be clear on this, we would love to go to our membership this
0:29:58 > 0:30:01week at the Ard Fheis and see we had a deal. We want is to choose shins
0:30:01 > 0:30:06up and running. There is no relevance to our Ard Fheis happening
0:30:06 > 0:30:10this week in remission to what is happening with the talks, we are
0:30:10 > 0:30:14always willing to engage but the issue was not primarily how we went
0:30:14 > 0:30:18about the talks it was about the fact that there was no willingness
0:30:18 > 0:30:28from DUP or the British Government to invalid previous agreements.
0:30:28 > 0:30:37If an a quick final question to you. Ken Clarke was talking about the
0:30:37 > 0:30:39baffling and totally contradictory situation where there has to be a
0:30:39 > 0:30:44border it should be in the Irish Sea.If Ted Heath were alive he
0:30:44 > 0:30:49would be proud of Ken Clarke, gears of that ilk. He is a very good
0:30:49 > 0:30:52parliamentarian and quite a good Unionist party is a total Europhile
0:30:52 > 0:30:57and he doesn't see the reality of people demanding freedom and
0:30:57 > 0:30:59emancipation from the European bureaucrats that brought us down and
0:30:59 > 0:31:02cost as hundreds of billions and hopefully within the next 15 months
0:31:02 > 0:31:06we will be liberated.
0:31:06 > 0:31:07Thank you both.
0:31:07 > 0:31:10And let's hear what tonight's commentators have to say about that.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14Alex Kane and Fionnuala O Connor are with me.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17Fionnuala, personable, having listened to that conversation about
0:31:17 > 0:31:23the talks process, dead in the water, or advisable?Well, pretty
0:31:23 > 0:31:28unconscious in the water. I don't know if it is advisable. If it is
0:31:28 > 0:31:32you really couldn't be confident about what will happen after that.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36What we have had for the past two or three weeks is industrial scale
0:31:36 > 0:31:40jibber jabber between them, they say they want to do something but they
0:31:40 > 0:31:43never do it. There is already a whole series of preconditions. It
0:31:43 > 0:31:49will not happen. The process and the whole Good Friday Agreement process
0:31:49 > 0:31:56is dead in the water.Sinn Fein a meeting Theresa May on Tuesday, is
0:31:56 > 0:32:00that a light at the end of the tunnel?I would not have thought so.
0:32:00 > 0:32:06I don't think Theresa May is in the business of, she has the DUP to
0:32:06 > 0:32:14consider, I was more interested in Ken Clarke 's bland and gruff
0:32:14 > 0:32:17proposition that the only solution to all of this is to have the border
0:32:17 > 0:32:22through the middle of the Irish Sea as the Taoiseach has said. He put
0:32:22 > 0:32:28his finger on it and he said it again and again in his own way that
0:32:28 > 0:32:32there is no solution to this conundrum. You cannot have a soft
0:32:32 > 0:32:40border and you cannot have a hard border that does not restore border
0:32:40 > 0:32:43fortifications and the only way around it is, as he said, for
0:32:43 > 0:32:46Northern Ireland and preferably in his view the whole of the UK to stay
0:32:46 > 0:32:56in the single market and in the Common Market and the single union
0:32:56 > 0:33:00so he said it can't be done and nobody else has been able to come up
0:33:00 > 0:33:04with a way around it so that is something that Theresa May is up
0:33:04 > 0:33:09against now and it is something that the DUP are up against as well.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12Alex, did you think that Ken Clarke showed an interesting light on where
0:33:12 > 0:33:16he is and where the Brexit discussions are as far as London is
0:33:16 > 0:33:21concerned? Let us just say he is out of step with the secretary of state
0:33:21 > 0:33:26on most of the issues that he talked about in the interview tonight.
0:33:26 > 0:33:31Absolutely clearly he is wary was in 1975 in the original referendum. The
0:33:31 > 0:33:34notion he is talking about that somehow you could keep Northern
0:33:34 > 0:33:37Ireland in the single market and the customs union, even if the rest of
0:33:37 > 0:33:43Great Britain stays in, that will never sell. It is not only the DUP
0:33:43 > 0:33:46but no Unionist will ever buy that because that would change
0:33:46 > 0:33:52fundamentally the relationship between Northern Ireland and the
0:33:52 > 0:33:54rest of Britain, it will never happen, no matter how pleasing Ken
0:33:54 > 0:33:57Clarke will try and make it sound. It is not happening.Hebert finger
0:33:57 > 0:34:01on it, there is no other way around it and no one has been able to come
0:34:01 > 0:34:07up with it. The proposition was not put to people in the referendum that
0:34:07 > 0:34:11UK was leaving the customs union and the single market.In fairness,
0:34:11 > 0:34:16neither side did. You are right. Neither the British or the Irish
0:34:16 > 0:34:19governments have that debate. They didn't say to people whatever way
0:34:19 > 0:34:23you vote, remember these are the consequences, they never have that
0:34:23 > 0:34:28debate. They never expected Brexit. British government, Irish
0:34:28 > 0:34:31government, Belfast, Brussels, none of them expected this result and
0:34:31 > 0:34:37they are all like ducks in a dark room and the consequences, they
0:34:37 > 0:34:39never have that debate. They never expected Brexit. British government,
0:34:39 > 0:34:41Irish government, Belfast, Brussels, none of them expected this result
0:34:41 > 0:34:43and they are all like ducks in a dark room again what is happening.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46They are also talking about a special case for Irish -- Northern
0:34:46 > 0:34:49Ireland and that is what the DUP is saying, they want a bespoke union
0:34:49 > 0:34:51but it cannot be the special case that Sinn Fein want.Again, as often
0:34:51 > 0:34:54happens, we have asked questions but we haven't come up with too many
0:34:54 > 0:34:56answers, but thank you very much for trying!
0:34:56 > 0:34:58That's it from The View for this week.
0:34:58 > 0:35:00Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35am here on BBC One.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03Earlier we heard from the Commons' Father of the House, Ken Clarke,
0:35:03 > 0:35:06who was given the honour of asking the final question of
0:35:06 > 0:35:08the departing Prime Minister, David Cameron, in July last year.
0:35:08 > 0:35:10And Mr Cameron couldn't resist turning the tables.
0:35:10 > 0:35:15One of the toughest conversations I had in politics was actually when I
0:35:15 > 0:35:18was Leader of the Opposition and I was trying to get him to join my
0:35:18 > 0:35:22front bench and he was on a bird-watching holiday in Patagonia
0:35:22 > 0:35:25and it was almost impossible to persuade him to come back. Not many
0:35:25 > 0:35:29people know this but actually his first act as Chancellor of the
0:35:29 > 0:35:36Exchequer was to fire me as a special adviser.
0:35:36 > 0:35:41He is not always the easiest person to get hold. Tory modification --
0:35:41 > 0:35:44modernisation has not got as far as getting Ken Clarke to carry a mobile
0:35:44 > 0:35:49phone. He briefly had won, but he says the problem is that people keep
0:35:49 > 0:35:54bringing me on it. We had to move, I seem to remember, in opposition, we
0:35:54 > 0:35:57had to move our morning meeting to accommodate his AM cigar.