0:00:03 > 0:00:05Tonight...
0:00:05 > 0:00:07More cracks are appearing between the British and Irish
0:00:07 > 0:00:09governments over Brexit.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12And, a proposed amnesty for soldiers deepens the rift
0:00:12 > 0:00:13between the DUP and Sinn Fein.
0:00:13 > 0:00:23Welcome to The View.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38Are proposals for an amnesty for soldiers likely to push the DUP
0:00:38 > 0:00:39and Sinn Fein even further apart?
0:00:39 > 0:00:43We'll hear from both sides.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey and the DUP's Emma
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Little-Pengelly are with me.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51Although they say they don't do coronations, there seems
0:00:51 > 0:00:55to be an heir apparent to the Sinn Fein presidency.
0:00:55 > 0:01:02I admire her for being in a male environment, as being gutsy and
0:01:02 > 0:01:05straight-forward and upfront.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Has the issue of the border become a game?
0:01:07 > 0:01:10This week the DUP leader accused the Taoiseach of being reckless
0:01:10 > 0:01:12and playing around with Northern Ireland.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14So can London and Dublin fight fair with each other?
0:01:14 > 0:01:17We'll hear a Westminster view from the former
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Tory Cabinet Minister, Peter Lilley.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22And back again with their thoughts on another busy political week
0:01:22 > 0:01:32are columnists Fionnuala O Connor and Alex Kane.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37Hello.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39As if there weren't enough obstacles to a return to Stormont,
0:01:39 > 0:01:42another one emerged this week when Sinn Fein accused
0:01:42 > 0:01:44the British Government of bad faith for considering what it says
0:01:44 > 0:01:46is an amnesty for soldiers involved in Troubles-related killings.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Or is it simply, as the DUP would say, drawing a line under
0:01:50 > 0:01:52the past for those who have already been investigated?
0:01:52 > 0:01:54Emma Little-Pengelly and Alex Maskey are with me.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Welcome to you both, thank you for joining us.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59Emma Little Pengelly, did the DUP know in advance
0:01:59 > 0:02:01that this consultation was going to include a proposal
0:02:01 > 0:02:03on a statute of limitations?
0:02:03 > 0:02:08Well, obviously there are a wide range of issues in relation to
0:02:08 > 0:02:10trying to find solutions of the legacy of the past in Northern
0:02:10 > 0:02:15Ireland. This had been discussed on many occasions previously. It's an
0:02:15 > 0:02:18emerging issue, not just in Northern Ireland. It has to be placed within
0:02:18 > 0:02:23the context of what is happening in terms of Afghanistan, Iraq and
0:02:23 > 0:02:28contemporary army activities around the world. I would take issue with
0:02:28 > 0:02:33the categorization as an amnesty. My understanding what is being talked
0:02:33 > 0:02:38about is a statute of limitations. We haven't seen -Kill answer that -
0:02:38 > 0:02:45Hold on. It's not our proposal at this point. There has been reference
0:02:45 > 0:02:48to it previously and we talked about reinvestigation and the
0:02:48 > 0:02:52disproportionate reinvestigation. Did you know that this consultation
0:02:52 > 0:02:55was going to be included when the paper was published last week? Did
0:02:55 > 0:02:59you know that would be in it because Sinn Fein clearly didn't?As I
0:02:59 > 0:03:04indicated there were a range of discussions about what would be in
0:03:04 > 0:03:11the paper. Sinn Fein and ourselves wanted thes -You are supporting the
0:03:11 > 0:03:14British Government in Downing Street, did you know that this
0:03:14 > 0:03:16proposal for a consultation was going to be included in this
0:03:16 > 0:03:20document?This is a British Government document.Did you know it
0:03:20 > 0:03:24was going to be -We weren't involved -You didn't know? We made
0:03:24 > 0:03:30representation in terms of a range of issues, as I indicated, including
0:03:30 > 0:03:35on the pension issue. It's a consultation to ask for views on
0:03:35 > 0:03:39this matter. Give me a simple answer to the question. Did you know it was
0:03:39 > 0:03:42going to be fwh it or did you not? Sinn Fein was clear we didn't know
0:03:42 > 0:03:47it was in it. We are horrified. We don't like it. You clearly do like
0:03:47 > 0:03:52it. Did you know it was going to be in the document?We have had
0:03:52 > 0:03:56discussions over the last yum of years, as have Sinn Fein. It's a
0:03:56 > 0:04:00British Government document. We were not involved in what was going into
0:04:00 > 0:04:04it or not.In terms of influence over the British Government. I'm
0:04:04 > 0:04:07wondering were you arguing for this to be part of the consultation? Did
0:04:07 > 0:04:10you want to see a statute of limitations included? Did you know
0:04:10 > 0:04:15it was going to be included? That is a really simple question.I've
0:04:15 > 0:04:19indicated we made representations on a range of issues. We were not
0:04:19 > 0:04:21involved in the process of what was going into this consultation or not.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25You didn't know?It's a British Government document -You didn't
0:04:25 > 0:04:29know.We were in no different position in relation to anybody -
0:04:29 > 0:04:34You didn't know.We made emarations in terms of pensions and be other
0:04:34 > 0:04:38matters to go into that document. You won't give me a straight answer.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42One last chance, did you know?It was a British Government document
0:04:42 > 0:04:45released. We were not privy to what was going into that document before
0:04:45 > 0:04:49it was released.I'm not sure if you can interpret that. It seems it
0:04:49 > 0:04:54might mean the DUP didn't know, logically must mean the DUP didn't
0:04:54 > 0:04:58know. You didn't knowWe certainly didn't know. The Irish Government
0:04:58 > 0:05:02said they certainly didn't know. I understand that the PSNI are saying
0:05:02 > 0:05:07they didn't know anything about this statement.You couldn't be surprised
0:05:07 > 0:05:10because, Emma Little-Pengelly has made it clear that the DUP and
0:05:10 > 0:05:13others would have been keen to see this kind of thing in the
0:05:13 > 0:05:16consultation?Well, you see, when Emma doesn't give you an answer,
0:05:16 > 0:05:20what she needs to do is tell the public, the viewers, and
0:05:20 > 0:05:24particularly all of those right across the victims' community, as
0:05:24 > 0:05:28they are called because all those sectors are opposed to any notion of
0:05:28 > 0:05:33an amnesty for anybody resulting from a conflict. Emma was involved
0:05:33 > 0:05:38as one of her leading party negotiators on the legacy issues for
0:05:38 > 0:05:44a number of years. I have sat in rooms with Emma in discussions like
0:05:44 > 0:05:46this along with other party colleagues. She would have made it
0:05:46 > 0:05:52clear there can't be a suggestion of an amnesty. That is why we end up a
0:05:52 > 0:05:57new investigation unit as part of the Stormont House Agreement. The
0:05:57 > 0:06:00question that needs to be addressed tonight to your viewers is - does
0:06:00 > 0:06:06Emma and does the DUP and will they support this concept as flagged up
0:06:06 > 0:06:09in this consultation? Furthermore, Emma needs to explain why she put
0:06:09 > 0:06:16her name with her colleague Jim Shannon in Westminster recently to a
0:06:16 > 0:06:20motion supporting this concept? On the one hand Emma and her party have
0:06:20 > 0:06:25been forthright for years around no amnesty, no discussion of amnesty.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29We have never supported an amnesty. I want to place that very much
0:06:29 > 0:06:32on-the-record. We are opposed to the concept of it. Emma's party were
0:06:32 > 0:06:38vocal on that. It would appear that Emma's party, Emma at least, can
0:06:38 > 0:06:41clarify that tonight, is supportive of giving some kind of amnesty.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46There can be nothing else other than amnesty -Do you accept that is the
0:06:46 > 0:06:51case? If it walks like an amnesty and if it talks like an amnesty,
0:06:51 > 0:06:56it's an amnesty?No, I don't. As Alex outlined we have been clear we
0:06:56 > 0:07:00are opposed to amnesty. We listened to many victims from across all
0:07:00 > 0:07:03communities in Northern Irelandle they want the opportunity nor
0:07:03 > 0:07:08justice. It's a statute of limitations. As I indicated we were
0:07:08 > 0:07:11not privy to what was going into that document. We are not privy to
0:07:11 > 0:07:16the detail of what is proposed. My understanding is this came out of a
0:07:16 > 0:07:18recommendation from the Defence Select Committee.Will you support
0:07:18 > 0:07:22it?At Westminster. I think it's an interesting suggestion. I think it
0:07:22 > 0:07:26is one that warrants a consultation to ask people's views. It's very
0:07:26 > 0:07:31important, first of all. Secondly, it requires a mature discussion and
0:07:31 > 0:07:35reflection about this. Although Alex indicated that he and his party have
0:07:35 > 0:07:38opposed amnesty, the reality of it is -You were in the negotiations
0:07:38 > 0:07:44with us, you know. ThatI will raise the issue. I went through a
0:07:44 > 0:07:51negotiating process with Sinn Fein during the Haass process kr. It came
0:07:51 > 0:07:55out Sinn Fein had done a deal on on-the-run letters.What did they
0:07:55 > 0:08:00contain?You have to be honest - What did they contain.It was
0:08:00 > 0:08:03immunity from investigation and prosecution.Let us hear Alex's
0:08:03 > 0:08:09response to that.There is hypocrisy here.How do you respond to. That
0:08:09 > 0:08:17you have done your own dirty little deal and you are being hypocritical.
0:08:17 > 0:08:22They were a statement of fact and a comfort -Between Sinn Fein and the
0:08:22 > 0:08:26British Government. Isn't that right?Let me finish the answer when
0:08:26 > 0:08:30you ask me a question. The on-the-run letters were a comfort
0:08:30 > 0:08:33letter and stated clearly if any evidence comes up, those letters
0:08:33 > 0:08:37will not prevent a prosecution. Anybody who got one of those letters
0:08:37 > 0:08:41could well be prosecuted tomorrow - Comfort against what? Comfort
0:08:41 > 0:08:44against investigation and prosecution. That came out in the
0:08:44 > 0:08:47courts because it was clear in the courts that the people who received
0:08:47 > 0:08:50them, it's clear the people who received them believed they would
0:08:50 > 0:08:57not be investigate and they would not be prosecuted. They were used as
0:08:57 > 0:09:01an abuse of process issue. It was bad faith. What is bad faith is Sinn
0:09:01 > 0:09:04Fein sitting in negotiations saying justice is important, no amnesty. By
0:09:04 > 0:09:09the way, by the way... We have these letters.No amnesty for anyone who
0:09:09 > 0:09:12received those letters. They were a statement of fact telling people
0:09:12 > 0:09:16there was no basis for a prosecution. It also told them if
0:09:16 > 0:09:20there was a basis for a prosecution that prosecution would proceed.A
0:09:20 > 0:09:26couple of things quickly. If you think it heys no validity and no
0:09:26 > 0:09:29legal expertise to say it's on thin ice as a workable idea. We will come
0:09:29 > 0:09:43on to that in a No, I have moment. Not said it has no
0:09:45 > 0:09:50are valdity -You said that. Let me ask my question, if you don't mind.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Let the consultation kill off the idea. Have the consultation and see
0:09:53 > 0:09:58what happens?You heard reaction from people across the victims'
0:09:58 > 0:10:05community, as it is called, they stated in their absolute opposition
0:10:05 > 0:10:09to a concept. They don't want it for anybody, state forces or anybody
0:10:09 > 0:10:14else.It's a consultation.I will repeat tonight, that would
0:10:14 > 0:10:18jeopardise this additional concept of this statute of limitations, an
0:10:18 > 0:10:23amnesty by another name for Crown forces. This actually will cast a
0:10:23 > 0:10:27long shadow over the consultation. It will make it more difficult to
0:10:27 > 0:10:30get an agreement because in the context of people trying to build
0:10:30 > 0:10:34good faith through negotiation and discussions this throws a real big
0:10:34 > 0:10:38spanner in the works.OK. Emma Little-Pengelly you are a barrister.
0:10:38 > 0:10:44When you read that expert assessment, which you will have red
0:10:44 > 0:10:48from Kieran McEvoy and Peter Rowe will need to apply to state and
0:10:48 > 0:10:55non-state actors. It could leave the UK open to state impunity. Do you
0:10:55 > 0:10:59ignore that?You nude need to look at the detail of the complexity of
0:10:59 > 0:11:10the issue. There is a strong view out there. Which I share, there is a
0:11:10 > 0:11:15disproportionate way of dealing with the pass a.Quantify that.Everybody
0:11:15 > 0:11:19someone in the IRA arrested, including when Gerry Adams was
0:11:19 > 0:11:23arrested there were rallies by Sinn Fein for him to be released. Justice
0:11:23 > 0:11:26is a concept for Sinn Fein that only applies to others.It's applicable
0:11:26 > 0:11:33to everybody.There has been a disproportion anyway focus -Can you
0:11:33 > 0:11:37quantify that?Has there? The police say that is not the case. You
0:11:37 > 0:11:42dispute those figures, do you?The statistics that the police release
0:11:42 > 0:11:48show in themselves there is disproportionate -Do they?They do.
0:11:48 > 0:11:5490% of the killings during the Troubles were by paramilitary
0:11:54 > 0:11:59organisations 10% by the state. On the figures it's more than 10% in
0:11:59 > 0:12:06terms of the focus -Let us see if that stands up. PSNI legacy
0:12:06 > 0:12:10investigations 1,118 killings. 530 ariped to Republicans. 271 to
0:12:10 > 0:12:17loyalists. 354 to security forces. RET completed investigations. 1,615
0:12:17 > 0:12:25cases. 1,038 to Republicans. 536 tole loyalists, 32 to the Army. It
0:12:25 > 0:12:31flies in the face of what you have just said.Those statistics, do
0:12:31 > 0:12:37quick percentages. The numbers you have indicated they are not a 90/10%
0:12:37 > 0:12:43split. They are not.There are fewer cases of investigation into killings
0:12:43 > 0:12:56by Crown forces than by others?Not 10%. It's disproportionate.1,038
0:12:56 > 0:13:01investigation into Republican killings. 32 into the army.And the
0:13:01 > 0:13:11previous you mentioned as well. 1,118 killings. 530 to Republicans.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15271 to loyalists, 354 -It's more than 10%.Another important
0:13:15 > 0:13:21perspective on this.Briefly. I need to ask you something else.
0:13:21 > 0:13:26Republicans have actually served thousands of years in prison. A very
0:13:26 > 0:13:29small tiny handful of members of the British forces have served a day in
0:13:29 > 0:13:33prison. Most of those on one hand have been released from prison in a
0:13:33 > 0:13:37short period of time. Brought back into the armed forces. And, more
0:13:37 > 0:13:44often, promoted. That's not -Early release of prisoners. On-the-run
0:13:44 > 0:13:50less letters. There has been a special package put in place in
0:13:50 > 0:13:54terms of paramilitary organisations Walked away scot free.You want a
0:13:54 > 0:13:58special package for the other side of the House?We need to reflect
0:13:58 > 0:14:01about a tailored solution to a particular problem. The statute of
0:14:01 > 0:14:04limitations is not an amnesty.We will not get you to agree. OK.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16I think we have exposed the nature of the gulf between the two parties
0:14:16 > 0:14:19on this issue., if you don't mind, I need to ask you very quickly the
0:14:19 > 0:14:23former Ulster Unionist Party Lord Kilcooney.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28No longer part of the Ulster Unionist Party. Coming under a lot
0:14:28 > 0:14:35of criticism tonight for referring to Leo Varadkar on Twitter as "The
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Indian". What do you think about that?
0:14:37 > 0:14:41I understood he has referred that, which is the right thing to do. We
0:14:41 > 0:14:44should not be referring to anyone in that way.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46I said earlier on that I think it is something racist, but it is also
0:14:46 > 0:14:50criminally reckless. Sitting in Belfast, in recent weeks, people
0:14:50 > 0:14:55have been put out of their homes, had cars burned, had their homes at
0:14:55 > 0:15:00five because they were Catholic or Protestant families. This behaviour
0:15:00 > 0:15:03from a senior political representative, albeit yesterday's
0:15:03 > 0:15:07man, although he still has a high profile, I think is remarks are
0:15:07 > 0:15:08unacceptable. I don't think he would accept the
0:15:08 > 0:15:11connection you have made with what he said on Twitter, which he has now
0:15:11 > 0:15:15withdrawn. Senior civic figure makes racist
0:15:15 > 0:15:19remark like that, he cannot escape it.He has now withdrawn that. Which
0:15:19 > 0:15:23you would welcome, presumably?He should put his phone away forever.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27And quickly on Dublin's emergency meeting tonight, the deal between
0:15:27 > 0:15:32Fine Gael and Fianna Fail falling apart, ie ready for an election?
0:15:32 > 0:15:37We are, and I'm sure a lot of people will welcome an election, because
0:15:37 > 0:15:40this current government has failed people come and look at the level of
0:15:40 > 0:15:43homelessness, the health service in the 26 counties. We think a problem
0:15:43 > 0:15:46we have here... You will be interested to hear this.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50We have just received a line from one of our colleagues, who has been
0:15:50 > 0:15:54a crust of elements in Dublin, and the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said
0:15:54 > 0:15:59Frances Fitzgerald will not be standing down as, so the stand-off
0:15:59 > 0:16:03continues.It looks like an election.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07It does, as we speak. We are ready for it. We will leave
0:16:07 > 0:16:09it there. Thank you both very much indeed.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12Now, when Gerry Adams steps down as Sinn Fein president next year,
0:16:12 > 0:16:15it's widely expected that he'll be replaced by Mary Lou McDonald.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17The Dublin Central TD is the front-runner and may take
0:16:17 > 0:16:20over without a contest. But what do we know about her?
0:16:20 > 0:16:22Will she change Sinn Fein's political direction and can
0:16:22 > 0:16:24she broaden the party's appeal? Stephen Walker has been to Dublin.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38Mary Lou McDonald's story is very different from the Sinn Fein
0:16:38 > 0:16:41politicians. She comes from a middle-class background and was
0:16:41 > 0:16:48brought up here in rat Park, one of Dublin's most desirable suburbs. --
0:16:48 > 0:16:53Rathgar. As a child she went to a private fee-paying school. In her
0:16:53 > 0:16:56teens, she became interested in politics, but it was not Sinn Fein
0:16:56 > 0:17:00that caught her eye. In the late 1990s, Mary Lou McDonald
0:17:00 > 0:17:05joined the enough oil in Dublin West, and political opponents say
0:17:05 > 0:17:08she was anxious to claim the political ladder.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11She was certainly a very active Keanu fail member, and within a
0:17:11 > 0:17:19couple of years, -- Fianna Fail member, and in a few years, she had
0:17:19 > 0:17:23changed sides and join Sinn Fein. The understanding locally was that
0:17:23 > 0:17:26she wanted to run for Fianna Fail, but there was no vacancy.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29But she says her switch to Sinn Fein was more about policy than personal
0:17:29 > 0:17:36ambition. This Dublin TD, who is now a minister, says she felt let down
0:17:36 > 0:17:38by Fianna Fail. She felt that they were going away
0:17:38 > 0:17:42from the whole idea of Irish unity and independence, and I think she
0:17:42 > 0:17:46was looking for a party that would reflect that view.
0:17:46 > 0:17:52How you doing? Nice to meet you? In 2002, she was Sinn Fein's
0:17:52 > 0:17:56candidate in Dublin West. She failed to get elected, but in 2004 made
0:17:56 > 0:18:00history by becoming the party's first NEP. Her role in Europe gave
0:18:00 > 0:18:05her a profile, and in 2011, she became a TD for Dublin Central.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09I think Mary Lou McDonald will prove to thought to be a Marmite
0:18:09 > 0:18:13politician. No one is neutral on her. You either love her or you hate
0:18:13 > 0:18:17her. She is a very, very forceful personality.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21Marylou McDonald's style has won her support from across the political
0:18:21 > 0:18:23spectrum. I admire her for being in a male
0:18:23 > 0:18:30environment, which the Dail is, and being gutsy and straightforward, and
0:18:30 > 0:18:37up front, and those are qualities which stand to one in any
0:18:37 > 0:18:41environment, but in a male political environment, she sure uses them and
0:18:41 > 0:18:44need them. But despite the praise, Mary Lou
0:18:44 > 0:18:49McDonald says her judgment -- say her judgment sometimes let her down.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53Some site her reaction to the case of Maria Cahill, the Belfast woman
0:18:53 > 0:18:57who said she was raped but then that the IRA covered it up.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01I was deeply disappointed and how, for instance, she responded to the
0:19:01 > 0:19:08revelations about Maria Queheille, and the fact that she had been
0:19:08 > 0:19:13abused. I thought she saw very little empathy, whereas in the Dail,
0:19:13 > 0:19:18on previous occasions, she has been extraordinarily sympathetic to women
0:19:18 > 0:19:20who have come through difficult situations.
0:19:20 > 0:19:25At the time, Sinn Fein insisted they did everything they could to help
0:19:25 > 0:19:29Maria Cahill, and say there are political opponents try to exploit
0:19:29 > 0:19:32the situation. Sinn Fein are now preparing for life without the man
0:19:32 > 0:19:37who has let them for three decades. So what will a Marylou McDonald
0:19:37 > 0:19:42presidency look like? She is urban, a woman, young, and
0:19:42 > 0:19:49would have her own ideas about what may be the party should do and where
0:19:49 > 0:19:52it should go. I'm sure she will ruffle some feathers.
0:19:52 > 0:19:56But will her approach to Northern Ireland change?
0:19:56 > 0:19:59Really, the concerns of the people in the Republic are quite different
0:19:59 > 0:20:05from concerns of people in the north, and she represents... She is
0:20:05 > 0:20:08a TD for Dublin Central, and the concerns of people there would be
0:20:08 > 0:20:11very different from people in Northern Ireland, so there are
0:20:11 > 0:20:16various issues she would have to very skilfully manage. Abortion is a
0:20:16 > 0:20:20big one. She would have a particular view which might not be widely held
0:20:20 > 0:20:23in Northern Ireland. Last weekend, the party talked about
0:20:23 > 0:20:35going into government, despite the fact that both Fine Gael and Fianna
0:20:35 > 0:20:38Fail have ruled out in coalition. So is Sinn Fein ready for Marylou
0:20:38 > 0:20:41McDonald to be in power? I think they will find it difficult
0:20:41 > 0:20:45to transition to being in government and part of a coalition which goes
0:20:45 > 0:20:48with all the collective responsibility which goes in
0:20:48 > 0:20:52Cabinet. So they have a bit of going up to do, and I think there will be
0:20:52 > 0:20:56a very steep learning curve, but I think Marylou will be up to the job,
0:20:56 > 0:21:00yes. Would Marylou McDonald make a good
0:21:00 > 0:21:04leader? I think she would make a feisty one.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07Some question whether Sinn Fein's current deputy president has the
0:21:07 > 0:21:09right experience. She has never held office in the
0:21:09 > 0:21:16sense of being a minister or having a role to carry out where she has
0:21:16 > 0:21:20had to make decisions other than, obviously, decisions made in the
0:21:20 > 0:21:28context of Sinn Fein and the republican movement as party. So she
0:21:28 > 0:21:30is untried and untested in that sense.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35Others insist that the Dublin TD has the right skills.She would be very
0:21:35 > 0:21:41competent, very professional, and I could see her handling the situation
0:21:41 > 0:21:44very, very well.I am an independent, and I am now in
0:21:44 > 0:21:48government.A lot of people thought that would not happen.Anything is
0:21:48 > 0:21:51possible in politics. If the political cards fall their
0:21:51 > 0:21:53way, Marylou McDonald could soon take their party towards government.
0:21:53 > 0:22:00She wants Sinn Fein to be in power quickly so she does realise Sinn
0:22:00 > 0:22:03Fein is going to have to compromise and is going to possibly have to go
0:22:03 > 0:22:09into power as the minority party. Mary Lou McDonald became a party's
0:22:09 > 0:22:11first NEP. The Dubliner could soon be making history again.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13Stephen Walker reporting.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15They've previously talked about their "constructive"
0:22:15 > 0:22:17relationship, but this week Arlene Foster was accused
0:22:17 > 0:22:22of slapping down Leo Varadkar over the Irish government's "reckless"
0:22:22 > 0:22:23position on Brexit.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25Then came a leaked Irish government report which branded
0:22:25 > 0:22:27the British Government's position one of "chaos and confusion."
0:22:27 > 0:22:29And speaking before an Oireachtas committee earlier today,
0:22:29 > 0:22:32the Irish Foreign Affairs Minister, Simon Coveney, didn't pull any
0:22:32 > 0:22:34punches when he said Ireland will not accept a bad
0:22:34 > 0:22:37deal for Ireland.
0:22:37 > 0:22:37So does Westminster need to put more effort
0:22:41 > 0:22:44The Taoiseach and I in particular have been very clear in terms of
0:22:44 > 0:22:50what we are asking for. That hasn't changed for months. What has
0:22:50 > 0:22:57changed, perhaps, is the expectation that Ireland, maybe when we come
0:22:57 > 0:23:02under a little bit of pressure, we might back off in terms of that ask,
0:23:02 > 0:23:06to a certain extent, or accent that it would be deferred interface two
0:23:06 > 0:23:09of the Brexit discussions. And some people seem to be surprised that
0:23:09 > 0:23:13that is not happening. -- into phase two.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Maybe they were not listening and we told the first, second, third or
0:23:17 > 0:23:22tenth time. But I think people are listening now.
0:23:22 > 0:23:30For anybody who sees this from afar as simply a trading barrier, you
0:23:30 > 0:23:33know, they fundamentally misunderstand the strength of
0:23:33 > 0:23:37feeling politically in Ireland on this issue, and I have made that
0:23:37 > 0:23:42point very forcefully to some of my counterparts and friends who are
0:23:42 > 0:23:49negotiating on the British side. And I think Michel Barnier, as I said
0:23:49 > 0:23:53earlier, really understands that. He has come here and spoken to people
0:23:53 > 0:23:57and communities on the border and really made the point that Ireland's
0:23:57 > 0:24:00problems in Europe's problems in the context of this process.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02So does Westminster need to put more effort
0:24:02 > 0:24:03into solving the border issue?
0:24:03 > 0:24:06I'm joined by former Conservative Minister, Peter Lilley.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10Thank you very much indeed for joining us tonight.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14Simon Kirby was not pulling any punches there. The border is a
0:24:14 > 0:24:16pretty big issue and the Irish government is not at all satisfied
0:24:16 > 0:24:20that the Irish government -- that the British government is
0:24:20 > 0:24:24approaching it with the kind of commitment and sympathy that is
0:24:24 > 0:24:27necessary. Do you have any simply for that position?Not a lot. I
0:24:27 > 0:24:30thought it would be better that he would respond to the concrete
0:24:30 > 0:24:32proposals the British government has put forward. I don't know what his
0:24:32 > 0:24:38response is to the proposal that all small, medium and micro businesses,
0:24:38 > 0:24:4280% of the trade across the border, should be exempt from any controls.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45What is the Irish government response to that? I don't know his
0:24:45 > 0:24:53disposal to the proposal of larger businesses being able to pay taxes
0:24:53 > 0:24:58and quarterly intervals. What is the Irish have an's response to that? I
0:24:58 > 0:25:01imagine he is gearing up for an election in Ireland and competing
0:25:01 > 0:25:06with Sinn Fein for a sort of Irish unity vote. That is not a really
0:25:06 > 0:25:10good way of ensuring a good outcome of the discussions on the border.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14We had hoped to be hearing from the Fine Gael Senator Neil Richmond this
0:25:14 > 0:25:18evening. He was very keen to debate this issue with you, but as we have
0:25:18 > 0:25:23just reported, there has been an emergency meeting of the Fine Gael
0:25:23 > 0:25:26parliamentary party in Dublin tonight, and Senator Richmond was
0:25:26 > 0:25:29called to that, and it looks like there could be an election, as you
0:25:29 > 0:25:33have suggested, in the South in the next few weeks. We're not sure about
0:25:33 > 0:25:36that, but that is the way things are shaping up. My understanding of the
0:25:36 > 0:25:39Irish government position on the issues you're just outlined is, it
0:25:39 > 0:25:43may seems simple from your perspective in London, but on the
0:25:43 > 0:25:47island of Ireland, it is not that simple. It is a lot more
0:25:47 > 0:25:49competition, and they don't really understand how a lot of the issues
0:25:49 > 0:25:53that you think, and the UK Government thinks, can be dealt with
0:25:53 > 0:25:57in a very straightforward fashion, will actually happen. It is a lot
0:25:57 > 0:26:00more public later than maybe some people across the water thing.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04It is all very well to save his competitive. Why don't they give a
0:26:04 > 0:26:08public it'd respond to our proposals? If they have completed
0:26:08 > 0:26:11proposals as I understand it, the Irish government has farmed out its
0:26:11 > 0:26:14policy to Europe and is saying, we will just do what ever Europe wants
0:26:14 > 0:26:18us to do and borders. That is a very sensible. There are countries in
0:26:18 > 0:26:23Europe by Croatia and Cyprus which have special arrangements of their
0:26:23 > 0:26:26borders with third countries. Why isn't Ireland 's pressing for
0:26:26 > 0:26:31special arrangements on the border with Northern Ireland, so that we
0:26:31 > 0:26:37can have a sensitive border free arrangement which does recognise
0:26:37 > 0:26:41these sensibilities? I'm very well aware of them. I was responsible for
0:26:41 > 0:26:46Customs and Excise and the border when the problems were still there.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48I am probably more aware of it than he is.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51It is actually your problem to come up with the solutions are, in their
0:26:51 > 0:26:55view.We have!To come up with workable solutions, because you are
0:26:55 > 0:27:00the people who want to Brexit.What is his response to our proposals?
0:27:00 > 0:27:03Well, the responses they don't think they are workable, and it is not
0:27:03 > 0:27:07just the Irish government. Managers quote this to you. Last week is very
0:27:07 > 0:27:12programme, your former Cabinet colleague Ken Clarke, still an MP
0:27:12 > 0:27:16said he does not understand how Conservative ministers can hope to
0:27:16 > 0:27:21deliver a seamless, frictionless border in Ireland post Brexit if it
0:27:21 > 0:27:28leaves both the customs union and free market. He says that he has in
0:27:28 > 0:27:32the first notion of how they can deliver what they say they will
0:27:32 > 0:27:34deliver. Ken has a unique position in
0:27:34 > 0:27:38Parliament. He voted against Article 50, he is trying to do all he can to
0:27:38 > 0:27:42reverse the British government's decision, the British people's
0:27:42 > 0:27:45decision to leave the European Union. He will say anything
0:27:45 > 0:27:48reinforces that. I don't think he really added much to our knowledge
0:27:48 > 0:27:53of how to reach a sensible solution on the Irish border. I agree that it
0:27:53 > 0:27:58is important to get a good one. I don't know what the details problems
0:27:58 > 0:28:01the Irish government see, the concrete proposals the British
0:28:01 > 0:28:03government has positively put forward. Just saying not good
0:28:03 > 0:28:09enough, it is... You know, we don't agree, it is not helpful. What
0:28:09 > 0:28:12specifically is wrong? Why don't they were?I don't think they see
0:28:12 > 0:28:16them as concrete.It is a very concrete proposal.I'm sorry they
0:28:16 > 0:28:20are not here to make the case. It is not for me to make the Irish
0:28:20 > 0:28:25government case, but they have talked about chaos and confusion.
0:28:25 > 0:28:30His point is that the proposals from the UK Government are not concrete.
0:28:30 > 0:28:35They are concrete. Let me repeat. One of them is that 80% of trade
0:28:35 > 0:28:39across the border, carried out by small, medium and micro businesses,
0:28:39 > 0:28:43be exempt from any controls whatsoever and not counted by
0:28:43 > 0:28:47international trade.How would you believe that?Well, you wouldn't,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50because it would not be counted as international trade. Then the 20%
0:28:50 > 0:28:54that does count as serious trade, they would all be exempt from any
0:28:54 > 0:29:02requirements which normally occur at third borders to provide prior
0:29:02 > 0:29:06notification of goods crossing the border. They just had to do with
0:29:06 > 0:29:09that regular intervals when they pay their taxes, if there are customs
0:29:09 > 0:29:13duties, or any other taxes they have to pay. That would avoid the need
0:29:13 > 0:29:16for border controls. What is wrong with that? Have we heard any
0:29:16 > 0:29:21concrete criticisms of that proposal?You do realise it is a
0:29:21 > 0:29:26very long and very porous border with many, many hundreds of
0:29:26 > 0:29:32crossings?Yes.So how would you deal... Revenue Commissioners and
0:29:32 > 0:29:35customs officials in the south have looked at this in some detail and
0:29:35 > 0:29:38published some interesting reports. They have said that actually,
0:29:38 > 0:29:44dealing with the volume of traffic that you would have to deal with
0:29:44 > 0:29:46would be virtually impossible.We have put forward proposals where
0:29:46 > 0:29:49they wouldn't have to be dealt with at the border also how would you
0:29:49 > 0:29:53deal with the issue of smuggling across the border, which as you will
0:29:53 > 0:29:57know very well, has been an issue promised 100 years? Yes, indeed, an
0:29:57 > 0:30:04issue when I was there. So, smuggling, avoiding what kind of
0:30:04 > 0:30:07tax?There Reds a problem with smuggling fuel, for a start, and
0:30:07 > 0:30:10livestock.How would you deal with it differently from how you do at
0:30:10 > 0:30:16present the macro it is not for me to tell you how I would deal!It is
0:30:16 > 0:30:22for the Irish government to say, how would you deal with it? It is your
0:30:22 > 0:30:26administration that wants to effect this change. What are your concrete
0:30:26 > 0:30:29proposals were dealing with the kind of issues that will need to be dealt
0:30:29 > 0:30:33with? They are not my words, they are those of the Irish government. A
0:30:33 > 0:30:36chaotic and confusing approach. Which is a very vague and unspecific
0:30:36 > 0:30:42response. We have said we will not have any hard border controls. We
0:30:42 > 0:30:46understand, of course, that the EU normally does put hard border
0:30:46 > 0:30:50controls on any third country, and if they choose to treat us as a
0:30:50 > 0:30:54third country, then it will be a question of the Irish Republic
0:30:54 > 0:31:01agreeing with European laws. We have suggested ways that could be
0:31:01 > 0:31:05avoided.So you would just say, if there is a hard border, to the Irish
0:31:05 > 0:31:08government's fault?No, we're selling our document we appreciate
0:31:08 > 0:31:12we need to put forward a puzzle that will help the Irish government,
0:31:12 > 0:31:15avoid having as border controls. We won't have any border controls. We
0:31:15 > 0:31:18have put forward as proposals and not had any concrete response. All
0:31:18 > 0:31:23they have done is league third rate to full title from second ranking
0:31:23 > 0:31:28diplomats. -- leak. From a government which is this week,
0:31:28 > 0:31:31wobbling and not fit.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35Is this is a government that you have to do business with. You are
0:31:35 > 0:31:40supposed to be on good terms with. This is a government that has a veto
0:31:40 > 0:31:44and Simon Coveney has indicated if he's pushed he will use the veto. He
0:31:44 > 0:31:49will exercise the veto and where does that leave anybody? That would
0:31:49 > 0:31:51leave them where they presumably don't want to be.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55They would be forced to impose a hard border with customs. We
0:31:55 > 0:31:58wouldn't do so. They would put themselves in that position. I don't
0:31:58 > 0:32:02believe the Irish government will do that. I think it's a threat made
0:32:02 > 0:32:05ahead of elections because they are worried about losing votes to Sinn
0:32:05 > 0:32:09Fein. We will leave it there. Thank you very much indeed for joining us
0:32:09 > 0:32:15tonight.
0:32:15 > 0:32:17Let's hear what tonight's commentators have to say about that.
0:32:17 > 0:32:19Alex Kane and Fionnuala O'Connor are with me.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23I wish we had 20 minutes. Have a quick word about what Peter Lilley
0:32:23 > 0:32:27said. I didn't see that coming at the end. Did you?Yes, it's just
0:32:27 > 0:32:33silly. It's an ex-MP. I don't know if we should spend very much time...
0:32:33 > 0:32:38Former Cabinet Minister.He's former. He's one of the gang of four
0:32:38 > 0:32:44who a month ago, led bio Wen Patterson and John Redwood who wrote
0:32:44 > 0:32:48a letter to Theresa May trying to undermine her further by saying she
0:32:48 > 0:32:53must prepare for a hard Brexit, effectively.He is a former MP. You
0:32:53 > 0:32:55are absolutely right about that. I suspect his views represent the
0:32:55 > 0:32:59views of some of those in the UK negotiating team. Is that fair to
0:32:59 > 0:33:04say? I think they probably do. Generally speaking, it was mostly
0:33:04 > 0:33:07nonsense thatter interview. He told you twice he knew about customs
0:33:07 > 0:33:11because he had been responsible for customs and the border. He was never
0:33:11 > 0:33:13responsible for the customs and the border when the two countries were
0:33:13 > 0:33:18in different places. Everything he said there.It sounded colonial at
0:33:18 > 0:33:22one point. We will tell you what to do. Get a move op. Why can't you
0:33:22 > 0:33:29just do that. There was nothing there.The last line, worried about
0:33:29 > 0:33:33losing votes to Sinn Fein. Where did that come out of? Lucky there is
0:33:33 > 0:33:41this election. It made it sound marginally less like a lunatic.
0:33:41 > 0:33:53There is an unfolding situation in Dublin the emergency meeting tonight
0:33:53 > 0:33:59is Francis Fitzgerald is going nowhere. If she stays and they
0:33:59 > 0:34:07deploy the missile that is going to bring the government down?It is.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10His backing for Francis Fitzgerald sounds stronger at the minute than
0:34:10 > 0:34:16it did earlier today and over the last two three days when he
0:34:16 > 0:34:20certainly wasn't fulsome. I imagine he hoped that she would walk. She
0:34:20 > 0:34:29has said she's not walking. He's been forcedd He can't win an
0:34:29 > 0:34:35election.He can't. The weather has changed. An election before
0:34:35 > 0:34:39Christmas is the opposite of what they want.Is it an election called
0:34:39 > 0:34:43through a no confidence vote. Which is lost, that would be the case in
0:34:43 > 0:34:47this instance, it has to be held within three weeks. That would be up
0:34:47 > 0:34:51the 22nd November?Nobody wants a Christmas election.December.The
0:34:51 > 0:34:54other thing about this Mark, all the stuff we have been talking about the
0:34:54 > 0:34:57border and Brexit talks. If there is going to be an election that will be
0:34:57 > 0:35:03on hold we will not know until three weeks time if Sinn Fein are in
0:35:03 > 0:35:09government. All the dynamics will have shifted within three weeks.Let
0:35:09 > 0:35:14us talk about Lord Kilclooney's tweet. Referring to the Taoiseach as
0:35:14 > 0:35:22"the Indian."Very smart man John Taylor, I'm amazed to discover he
0:35:22 > 0:35:26thinks "the Indian" is short hand for Varadkar. Someone pointed out
0:35:26 > 0:35:33there are eight letters in one and - Yeah. Leo Varadkar is eight The
0:35:33 > 0:35:41Indian is ten, not longer.Sad.I haven't seen a Twitter storm like
0:35:41 > 0:35:45that for a long time, if ever. Twitter was going mad tonight?It
0:35:45 > 0:35:50was. Understandably. My partner who loves me says to me on the phone,
0:35:50 > 0:35:55"put it down. Put it away. Do not tweet a response to that." Someone
0:35:55 > 0:36:01should have come to him quiet and said, "stop it. Don't push it." He
0:36:01 > 0:36:05apologised an hour later. On Twitter you cannot afford...He loves
0:36:05 > 0:36:12attention.He's a canny politician. He doesn't like this attention.We
0:36:12 > 0:36:18will leave it there. Thank you very much. Busy programme.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20That's it from The View for this week.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Join me for our coverage of the DUP Conference on BBC Two at 3.00pm
0:36:23 > 0:36:25on Saturday afternoon and, of course, Sunday Politics
0:36:25 > 0:36:27is at 11.35am on BBC One.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29But it was another busy week at Downing Street,
0:36:29 > 0:36:31so we sent our top man Gareth Gordon.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34What we didn't realise was that he has the power to control
0:36:34 > 0:36:35Government officials.
0:36:35 > 0:36:37Just keep an eye on Number Ten's front door.
0:36:37 > 0:36:42Good night!
0:36:57 > 0:37:05Yes I can hear you. Can you hear me? Were there any signs of progress
0:37:05 > 0:37:12made this morning in your view?As so often with the Northern Ireland
0:37:12 > 0:37:16peace process it's one step forward, two steps back. I'm not sure we even
0:37:16 > 0:37:20had a step forward this morning, but the interesting thing, first of all
0:37:20 > 0:37:25out of that Theresa May...