0:00:06 > 0:00:09Hello and welcome to a special edition of The View live
0:00:09 > 0:00:12from Brussels, at a crucial moment for the European Union.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15The Irish border has been a key factor in the first phase
0:00:15 > 0:00:17of Brexit discussions, and now it seems Theresa May's
0:00:17 > 0:00:19government has done enough to convince the other member states
0:00:19 > 0:00:21to move on to phase two.
0:00:21 > 0:00:21cash
0:00:21 > 0:00:22cash
0:00:23 > 0:00:26But there are still a lot of unanswered questions, and tonight
0:00:26 > 0:00:28we'll try to get some answers.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Here at the heart of the European Union, the leaders
0:00:50 > 0:00:53of the EU member states have been discussing issues which will have
0:00:53 > 0:00:55a profound impact on the UK and Ireland's future -
0:00:55 > 0:00:57north and south.
0:00:57 > 0:01:03With the Republic widely acknowledged as the country facing
0:01:03 > 0:01:09the biggest impact from the UK's withdrawal, I spoke
0:01:09 > 0:01:14to the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17that other people supporting Brexit and realised they are some of the
0:01:17 > 0:01:25people creating the problems and I'm the one with all that. I'm in
0:01:25 > 0:01:31Strasbourg speaking to MEPs who will have approved the final deal so what
0:01:31 > 0:01:35are the issues affecting them?
0:01:35 > 0:01:36I've been hearing how life
0:01:36 > 0:01:39in a post-Brexit Brussels could work to the advantage of businesses
0:01:39 > 0:01:41from both sides of the Irish border.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44With the British having removed themselves from the job market, that
0:01:44 > 0:01:48will create a lot of opportunities for people with Irish citizenship
0:01:48 > 0:01:50from the north and the Republic.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52And I'll be talking to some of the people who've been
0:01:52 > 0:01:54following the European story and its many twists
0:01:54 > 0:01:56and turns over the years...
0:02:02 > 0:02:06Welcome to the European Council building in Brussels where 18 months
0:02:06 > 0:02:10after the referendum, it seems the UK and the 27 remaining
0:02:10 > 0:02:15EU member states are ready to talk about their future relationship.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Tonight, EU leaders have been having dinner with Theresa May.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22The three tests from phase one - citizens' rights, the divorce bill
0:02:22 > 0:02:25and the most troublesome, the Irish border, have
0:02:25 > 0:02:27now been dealt with - sufficient progress seems to have
0:02:27 > 0:02:31been made to everyone's satisfaction.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34Ireland has, of course, been at the core of these
0:02:34 > 0:02:35negotiations throughout.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37It's generally acknowledged that its trade could be hardest hit
0:02:37 > 0:02:40of any EU state when the UK leaves and there was considerable media
0:02:40 > 0:02:43interest in what the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, had to say
0:02:43 > 0:02:49as he arrived at the summit this afternoon.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53Can I ask you how concerned you are that losing last night's vote in the
0:02:53 > 0:02:58House of Commons could have potentially quite seriously damage
0:02:58 > 0:03:04the leadership of Theresa May at a critical time in these negotiations?
0:03:04 > 0:03:08I know and understand that may have a tough job, she is leading a
0:03:08 > 0:03:13minority government supported by a supply arrangement, I can identify
0:03:13 > 0:03:17with that because that's what I'm doing, leading a minority government
0:03:17 > 0:03:20to supported by a confidence and supply agreement but I have faith
0:03:20 > 0:03:25and confidence in her she speaks for the government of the UK. That is
0:03:25 > 0:03:30the case as long as she is promised, we will do water and true tears as
0:03:30 > 0:03:35she had an overall majority.The Unionists continue to express
0:03:35 > 0:03:39concern that the difficulties the British government are having our
0:03:39 > 0:03:43visiting the Irish government with an opportunity to do what they see
0:03:43 > 0:03:47as an all Ireland agenda. They continue to say that despite the
0:03:47 > 0:03:49fact you've made it clear that is not the position, what is your
0:03:49 > 0:03:54message to them as this summit gets underway?Our message to all the
0:03:54 > 0:03:59people in Northern Ireland whether they are from a nationalist or
0:03:59 > 0:04:02unionist political point of view is we want to continue on the island of
0:04:02 > 0:04:07Ireland is what we have had the last 20th years,
0:04:11 > 0:04:17peace, freedom of trade and what is disrupting that is Brexit. I hope
0:04:17 > 0:04:20some of the people are supported and campaign for Brexit will realise or
0:04:20 > 0:04:23at least acknowledge that they are the ones who created this problem
0:04:23 > 0:04:26and I am one of the people trying to resolve it, trying to attain what we
0:04:26 > 0:04:31have had for 20 years, peace on an island for most of the past 20
0:04:31 > 0:04:35years. Power-sharing and free movement of people, goods, services
0:04:35 > 0:04:38and trade between Britain and Ireland and in Ireland, that's what
0:04:38 > 0:04:42I'm working towards.In terms of how wide-ranging regulatory alignment
0:04:42 > 0:04:45might be in the future if that is the backstop position which ends up
0:04:45 > 0:04:50adopted, is that the six issues that are mentioned in the Good Friday
0:04:50 > 0:04:56Agreement or the 142 that Michel Barnier's task force talk about?Are
0:04:56 > 0:05:00lots of people for their own political reasons that will try to
0:05:00 > 0:05:03put a particular spin or complexion on what was agreed last week in the
0:05:03 > 0:05:08joint retort. -- report. I will stand by the language there and
0:05:08 > 0:05:14dying which says maintained, full mod partial alignment and that
0:05:14 > 0:05:18applies to the rules of the internal market and Customs union that are
0:05:18 > 0:05:28required to avoid a hard border. And retain North- South cooperation, the
0:05:28 > 0:05:31all Ireland economy, that is the language used in the document. It is
0:05:31 > 0:05:34clear to me.Thank you.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36The Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, speaking to me earlier.
0:05:36 > 0:05:40And the Prime Minister has had a bruising 24 hours
0:05:40 > 0:05:43after her defeat at Westminster over the EU withdrawal bill.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45But she arrived here earlier saying she was certain
0:05:45 > 0:05:54she will deliver Brexit.
0:05:54 > 0:05:59It's clear you have problems in Parliament, as have to make more
0:05:59 > 0:06:03compromises with your own side as well as parliament?Look at the
0:06:03 > 0:06:07passage of the bill so far, it is making good process through the
0:06:07 > 0:06:10House of Commons. We have actually had 36 votes of the EU Withdrawal
0:06:10 > 0:06:15Bill and 135 of those with an avid majority of 22. The bill is making
0:06:15 > 0:06:20good progress, we are on course to deliver Brexit, on course for the
0:06:20 > 0:06:27vote of the British people. Will you compromise more? We have 35 out of
0:06:27 > 0:06:32our 36 votes on the EU Withdrawal Bill, it's making good, progress in
0:06:32 > 0:06:37the Commons and we will deliver the sovereign vote on the British people
0:06:37 > 0:06:40to leave the European Union, that is what we will do.
0:06:40 > 0:06:41That was political editor Laura Kuenssberg asking
0:06:41 > 0:06:44the questions of Theresa May and she's with me now along with
0:06:44 > 0:06:46RTE's Europe Editor, Tony Connelly.
0:06:46 > 0:06:52Welcome to you both. Thanks for joining us. How difficult, Laura, is
0:06:52 > 0:06:57the situation Theresa May is?Hard but I think some I will say
0:06:57 > 0:07:02something unfashionable. When the British government and say they are
0:07:02 > 0:07:06ready to move to x-rays, that is something of an achievement for the
0:07:06 > 0:07:08government. If you look at everything that's happened to
0:07:08 > 0:07:14Theresa May since you took office, the crashing loss of the majority in
0:07:14 > 0:07:18the election, all sort of rough and tumble in the Cabinet were
0:07:18 > 0:07:22significant decisions in the Tory party to get this far is something I
0:07:22 > 0:07:25have to say, from time to time at the last six months we have thought
0:07:25 > 0:07:29it didn't seem like it was possible. That doesn't for a second magic away
0:07:29 > 0:07:35all of the confrontations and contradictions, particularly over
0:07:35 > 0:07:37the Irish border question, that they still have to sort out in the next
0:07:37 > 0:07:43phase, but I do think tonight the number ten team is going to leave
0:07:43 > 0:07:48here feeling pretty chipper about what lies ahead.We gather Leo
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Varadkar and Theresa May had a meeting in the margins of that
0:07:51 > 0:07:56dinner. Do you have any idea what was discussed?I think it was a
0:07:56 > 0:07:59short meeting and I think both sides will be keen to take the temperature
0:07:59 > 0:08:06out of the situation because, speaking to both sides, it is clear
0:08:06 > 0:08:09that Anglo - Irish relations have been damaged by the last couple of
0:08:09 > 0:08:14months. There has been key episodes along the way, all the way up to the
0:08:14 > 0:08:19abort of the deal on the 4th of September. That week was fairly
0:08:19 > 0:08:23intense getting the deal over the line. And we end up with an
0:08:23 > 0:08:28agreement with so much constructive ambiguity in it that I think we are
0:08:28 > 0:08:33storing up a lot of problems for the future. The fact this is a 3-way
0:08:33 > 0:08:38tussle between Dublin, London and Belfast, the border is back in Irish
0:08:38 > 0:08:43politics and that opens up its own problems from its own toxicity. I
0:08:43 > 0:08:47think that meeting tonight was perhaps to say look, we have our own
0:08:47 > 0:08:55troubles my lets meet again in January, let's talk, we have human
0:08:55 > 0:08:59contact again after the trauma in the past few weeks.It is
0:08:59 > 0:09:02interesting because apparently Theresa May got a round of applause
0:09:02 > 0:09:06when she turned up and Leo Varadkar was supportive of Theresa May but
0:09:06 > 0:09:10they are people starting to feel sorry for her?I think there was a
0:09:10 > 0:09:15bit of a centre back at home, I have to say. When you talk to number ten
0:09:15 > 0:09:19insiders privately, they detect in their focus groups, and they would
0:09:19 > 0:09:22say this wouldn't they? That they do hope they do believe that the
0:09:22 > 0:09:29platinum are starting to say, "Goodness me, it is hard for her and
0:09:29 > 0:09:36she keeps going. " Now the political leader would want a sympathy vote,
0:09:36 > 0:09:40that is toxic for some leading the country, but there does seem to be,
0:09:40 > 0:09:44they she is still there. Even despite the difficulty of Brussels
0:09:44 > 0:09:48and the bad behaviour inside her own party. I think that anyone
0:09:48 > 0:09:51suggesting, the thing about the Irish border is not just the
0:09:51 > 0:09:54absolutely crucial importance of it for people north and south of the
0:09:54 > 0:09:59border itself, but I we saw in the last seven days it's kind of became
0:09:59 > 0:10:02a proxy for the really deep and troublesome divisions inside the
0:10:02 > 0:10:09Tory party. So when news came as he broke and then we heard MEPs
0:10:09 > 0:10:12suggesting at the beginning of the week that the British government
0:10:12 > 0:10:17rolled over to the concessions from Dublin, you had Eurosceptics in
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Westminster as well as the DUP think this will not do. We are not going
0:10:21 > 0:10:26to have it, we will not put up with it. And somehow the Irish border at
0:10:26 > 0:10:31this comparative early stage of the real talk, not the part the real
0:10:31 > 0:10:38talks, became a proxy, the weather division was with the Tory party.
0:10:38 > 0:10:44Nothing in the last 24 hours has sold about. What Theresa May has
0:10:44 > 0:10:48done has pushed that fight into next year, it is intriguing to hear you
0:10:48 > 0:10:51talking about that, it has been difficult for both of us, but at
0:10:51 > 0:10:56least let's get to do the next bit. Interesting to hear Leo Varadkar, he
0:10:56 > 0:11:00didn't pull any punches. Use diplomatic language but he's not
0:11:00 > 0:11:08happy with a lot of what he was saying, the DUP leader, he is saying
0:11:08 > 0:11:13unions don't see the way he sees it. He was clear about who was
0:11:13 > 0:11:15responsible for the Brexit difficulties, he is saying is tragic
0:11:15 > 0:11:23to other people's mess.I think there was a tussle between a the DUP
0:11:23 > 0:11:27and the Irish government that got worse over the past few months. The
0:11:27 > 0:11:31DUP fielded an agenda and a unity agenda, that Leo Varadkar is
0:11:31 > 0:11:37putting. -- feel there is an agenda. It comes on the different tone and
0:11:37 > 0:11:41personality that he is compared to enter Kenny. From the Irish point of
0:11:41 > 0:11:47view as we got to this deadline in December, they felt the British
0:11:47 > 0:11:50government was not producing enough product on the border issue and they
0:11:50 > 0:11:56had to raise the stakes, rate it in November with this whole suggestion
0:11:56 > 0:11:59that regulatory alignments with the customs union and single market,
0:11:59 > 0:12:04that was the first time it took shape in early November. Since then,
0:12:04 > 0:12:08I think the DUP has felt alienated by the Irish government poverty
0:12:08 > 0:12:14approach and felt cut out of the loop in Downing Street, because it's
0:12:14 > 0:12:18not a coalition, it's a confidence and supply arrangement, and they
0:12:18 > 0:12:21were not brought in as much as they would like to have been brought in,
0:12:21 > 0:12:25and all of this has come to a head and the language we have heard from
0:12:25 > 0:12:29the DUP about the Irish government in recent times, I think it will be
0:12:29 > 0:12:34hard-fought Simon Cope and need to get into the room with you DUP to
0:12:34 > 0:12:38talk about restoring the executive. That is a talent. Northern Ireland
0:12:38 > 0:12:41does not have a voice at these discussions and yet that is central
0:12:41 > 0:12:44to what is happening as far as Brexit is concerned. And then the
0:12:44 > 0:12:48issue is restoring devolution. That's right, and also as is my
0:12:48 > 0:12:53understanding and I confess I'm no expert in Northern Irish the correct
0:12:53 > 0:13:01me -- geography but in Westminster there was not a single sitting
0:13:01 > 0:13:03Northern Irish MP from a constituency that nudges up with the
0:13:03 > 0:13:10border. We have a Keary a situation where the people talking the talk in
0:13:10 > 0:13:14Westminster do not represent the areas that are actually affected.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18The whole of the North and South is affected by what others but there
0:13:18 > 0:13:22was a question Sinn Fein of course have strong views on this, they want
0:13:22 > 0:13:25to make their voice heard but they are not part of the Westminster
0:13:25 > 0:13:29discussion. Tony pointed to another thing present right across the
0:13:29 > 0:13:37Brexit talks, the idea of suspicion and all sides. The suspicion the
0:13:37 > 0:13:40DUP, the Irish government, suspicion back that way too. Suspicion also
0:13:40 > 0:13:44among Brexiteers in the Tory party of what the Remainer rebels are
0:13:44 > 0:13:48really up to. Suspicion among the Remainer rebels about what Theresa
0:13:48 > 0:13:52May really wants and then suspicion in the Labour Party about what
0:13:52 > 0:14:00Jeremy Corbyn really and vice versa. There was not much trust between
0:14:00 > 0:14:02Brussels, Westminster, Stormont, Dublin or even inside the political
0:14:02 > 0:14:08parties in Westminster itself. Finally, a bumpy few months ahead?
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Yes, you have the huge contradiction. The Irish government
0:14:11 > 0:14:15have a fixed idea about what full alignment means. They said they have
0:14:15 > 0:14:20legal advice on it in stride in the treaties. The British government's
0:14:20 > 0:14:22take on alignment is entirely different.Interesting stuff, thanks
0:14:22 > 0:14:32for joining us.We will be back with dictionaries, what alignment mean?
0:14:32 > 0:14:33The Irish government has played such a prominent role,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39Brussels is swarming with presidents and prime ministers for this summit,
0:14:39 > 0:14:41but there are few if any MEPs here.
0:14:41 > 0:14:42They've been meeting in the Strasbourg parliament
0:14:42 > 0:14:45all week, one of the three main cities of the EU.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49In the end, they too will get a say in the final deal with the UK
0:14:49 > 0:14:53and John Campbell has been there to get a range of opinions.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57Every month, any people might make the trip from Brussels to Strasbourg
0:14:57 > 0:15:04for its setting for Parliament. Its presence in the city a symbol of
0:15:04 > 0:15:10European reconciliation. The Irish border has been central to this
0:15:10 > 0:15:16first phase of Brexit negotiations. But, in truth, our reporter is a
0:15:16 > 0:15:20mere footnote in European history. When you compare it to the conflicts
0:15:20 > 0:15:24which have raised across this frontier. I am standing in France,
0:15:24 > 0:15:31and cross that bridge, over the river, that is Germany. Symbols of
0:15:31 > 0:15:34European conflict and cooperation are scattered across Strasbourg.
0:15:34 > 0:15:41Which of those parts will be taken in the next phase of the Brexit box?
0:15:41 > 0:15:44The deal we have struck will guarantee the rights of more than 3
0:15:44 > 0:15:51million EU citizens the commitment given by the UK Government and
0:15:51 > 0:15:54make's the late-night negotiations are treated with scepticism by Sinn
0:15:54 > 0:15:57Fein. Nobody knows the British government
0:15:57 > 0:16:01better than us when it comes to negotiations. They are masters of
0:16:01 > 0:16:08duplicity. I think when you look at the language of the document, it was
0:16:08 > 0:16:14laced with contradictions. Even the commission's communique identified
0:16:14 > 0:16:23those contradictions. So, at this stage, I think the parliament is
0:16:23 > 0:16:26made sufficient progress to move it to phase two, but it is not
0:16:26 > 0:16:32complete.And now, Mrs Dodds, you have the floor.Thank you, Mr
0:16:32 > 0:16:38President.The government's DUP allies are relaxed, having received
0:16:38 > 0:16:41reassurances about Northern Ireland's place in the UK.Well,
0:16:41 > 0:16:48look, we have heard a lot about this deal. We have heard a lot from some
0:16:48 > 0:16:50of our political opponents about special status for Northern Ireland
0:16:50 > 0:16:56within the EU. That is not in the deal. The deal specifically states
0:16:56 > 0:16:59that the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, will leave the
0:16:59 > 0:17:06single market and Customs union. Rules of alignment with the United
0:17:06 > 0:17:09Kingdom -- will be United Kingdom rolls of alignment. We all need to
0:17:09 > 0:17:14take a big deep breath, get herself geared up for that new relationship,
0:17:14 > 0:17:19for those essential talks to providing that a new relationship.
0:17:19 > 0:17:25The EU does have the ability to drain the emotion out of issues, and
0:17:25 > 0:17:31then negotiate workable solutions. But the veteran MEP says the
0:17:31 > 0:17:37challenges of this next phase should not be underestimated.Look, if we
0:17:37 > 0:17:43get a new type of customs deal, if we get trade, that is totally tariff
0:17:43 > 0:17:48free, I think that everything will flow from that. If we do not, the
0:17:48 > 0:17:52work is cut out for the negotiators. I do not think the next time they
0:17:52 > 0:17:55come to make a deal it will be as easy as the last one, and it was
0:17:55 > 0:17:59difficult enough. So, those are the views from our
0:17:59 > 0:18:04local MEPs. But how was the phase one deal feed from other places?
0:18:04 > 0:18:08Germany is the country with the most are presented as here, 96 out of
0:18:08 > 0:18:15751. One of its most prominent MEPs is happy that talks are moving on,
0:18:15 > 0:18:20but, in his view, the central contradictions of the Irish border
0:18:20 > 0:18:24issue has not gone away.I do see the problems. On the one hand, the
0:18:24 > 0:18:29UK wants to leave the single market of the customs union. On the other
0:18:29 > 0:18:32hand, the UK wants to avoid the creation of a hard border between
0:18:32 > 0:18:36Northern Ireland and the Republic, but they also want to maintain the
0:18:36 > 0:18:41unity of the United Kingdom. This is certainly too square the circle. The
0:18:41 > 0:18:45only possibility I see is that you have this regulatory alignment in
0:18:45 > 0:18:48Northern Ireland, but what this means for the future relationship
0:18:48 > 0:18:52between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK is something domestic
0:18:52 > 0:18:56British politics will have to decide. For us, one thing is clear.
0:18:56 > 0:19:03Under all circumstances, we want nothing at all which may be in
0:19:03 > 0:19:07danger for the Good Friday Agreement.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09One of his senior colleagues emphasises that the commitment on
0:19:09 > 0:19:15the border need to be legally kneeled down.The second phase is
0:19:15 > 0:19:22starting parallel negotiations to a withdrawal agreement. But without
0:19:22 > 0:19:26that, the questions of commitment are clearly a legally binding
0:19:26 > 0:19:29settles, and there will be no transition period and no further
0:19:29 > 0:19:34negotiations on the free trade agreement whatsoever. Therefore,
0:19:34 > 0:19:40this is not just for show, to counter the second phase.
0:19:40 > 0:19:45The EU says it needs to know what sort of relationship the UK want
0:19:45 > 0:19:52after it leaves. Be key to how the border issue is resolved.Debates,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56thoughts, sessions, everything... The Brexit supporter Daniel Hammond
0:19:56 > 0:20:01is very clear about what he wants.I want us to have the closest possible
0:20:01 > 0:20:04relationship with our European allies, compatible with being a
0:20:04 > 0:20:11sovereign country. Think of Canada and the US. The Canadians also have
0:20:11 > 0:20:15a federation on their doorstep, a political union. They are not part
0:20:15 > 0:20:19of it but they have the closest relationship with it that you could
0:20:19 > 0:20:24have, in not just trade but security, civil rights and so on. I
0:20:24 > 0:20:31think that is not a bad model for us, that we should become the EU's
0:20:31 > 0:20:35best friend and closest ally. Reconciling that sort of clean break
0:20:35 > 0:20:41with a soft border is not going to be straightforward. MEPs will
0:20:41 > 0:20:45continue to be consulted by the EU's negotiating team of the process
0:20:45 > 0:20:48unfolds. Ultimately, whatever is agreed will have to be approved by
0:20:48 > 0:20:51this Parliament.
0:20:51 > 0:20:57John has made it back from Strasbourg and he's with me now.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01John, first of all, what is the relationship late between the EU's
0:21:01 > 0:21:04chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, and the Parliament?The Parliament
0:21:04 > 0:21:08has no formal role in the negotiations, other than the right
0:21:08 > 0:21:12to be regularly updated on progress. Read at the end of the process, it
0:21:12 > 0:21:17does have a vote on the withdrawal agreement. That means, in practice,
0:21:17 > 0:21:20the relationship between Michel Barnier, the chief negotiator, and
0:21:20 > 0:21:23the Parliament is actually very close. The Parliament has a Brexit
0:21:23 > 0:21:28steering group, which is headed by the energetic -- and energetic
0:21:28 > 0:21:35Belgian. Those two men will meet before each negotiating round,
0:21:35 > 0:21:38because really the EU does not want to get into the position were a deal
0:21:38 > 0:21:42is good but is not acceptable to the Parliament. All along, the
0:21:42 > 0:21:48Parliament and Michel Barnier's team will be unlocked state.So, good
0:21:48 > 0:21:54MEPs theoretically veto it? Theoretically, yes. But it would
0:21:54 > 0:21:57never get to that stage. The EU does not work that way. There is this
0:21:57 > 0:22:02pre-deal which will be announced tomorrow saying there has been
0:22:02 > 0:22:05sufficient progress, so again it will be like the final deal as well.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09You're not going to get into a position where one body will use the
0:22:09 > 0:22:12beetle.You spoke there are two of the local MEPs. They have got very
0:22:12 > 0:22:16differing views on how they see Brexit and what they think needs to
0:22:16 > 0:22:21happen next. -- to three of our local MEPs. Have they tried to
0:22:21 > 0:22:26influence the Parliament on their positions on a difficult issue?
0:22:26 > 0:22:30Particularly Sinn Fein have been energetic on doing that, as they see
0:22:30 > 0:22:33the Parliament as they waited to Toshiba Irish bit of this debate,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36because they are a member of the Nordic Green group. That has a
0:22:36 > 0:22:40representative on that Brexit steering committee of the
0:22:40 > 0:22:42Parliament. Sinn Fein will work through them. They will say that
0:22:42 > 0:22:46they have shipped some of the language which has been used in the
0:22:46 > 0:22:49Parliament's resolutions. It is not like the Parliament has adopted Sinn
0:22:49 > 0:22:53Fein positions also. For example, their desire for Northern Ireland to
0:22:53 > 0:22:56have a special status has not been adopted by the Parliament but they
0:22:56 > 0:23:00would say they have worked assiduously. They have talked to as
0:23:00 > 0:23:03many MEPs as they can and see it as a place where they can influence the
0:23:03 > 0:23:08debate.And what is Northern Ireland business looking for at this stage
0:23:08 > 0:23:16in the process? Bcertainty, that is whatever they want. This transition
0:23:16 > 0:23:20period, after we have left the EU for to years, we will continue to
0:23:20 > 0:23:23follow many of the regulations and rules. Business we want that
0:23:23 > 0:23:28transition period kneeled down so that they will have a breathing
0:23:28 > 0:23:32space which will take them to at least 2021 before a big change.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34Thank you very much indeed.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37Brussels is home to many of the EU's institutions and those bodies
0:23:37 > 0:23:39generate a mini-economy of their own made up
0:23:39 > 0:23:41of analysts, lobbyists, and public relations bodies -
0:23:41 > 0:23:43and prominent among them are some familiar accents.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04This is right in the heart of Brussels, it is the home of the
0:24:04 > 0:24:07European Commission. This city, of course, is filling up with diplomats
0:24:07 > 0:24:11from right across the European Union brought this week's crucial summit.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15There are a lot of people who live and work in Brussels right
0:24:15 > 0:24:19throughout the year of course, and I am off to meet three of them to hear
0:24:19 > 0:24:27how Brexit is impacting on the day-to-day life. Nicholas, how
0:24:27 > 0:24:31important, first of all, do you see this week's summit as being?This is
0:24:31 > 0:24:35crucial. This is the turning point at which we see whether there is
0:24:35 > 0:24:38going to be an ordered transition or a disorderly, chaotic cliff edge to
0:24:38 > 0:24:43the entire Brexit process. We have built up to this. This should have
0:24:43 > 0:24:46happened in October, do not forget. This should have been where we were
0:24:46 > 0:24:51three months ago and we are not. We are now at the stage where we have
0:24:51 > 0:24:54seen the government making a deal, then hints that it may withdraw
0:24:54 > 0:24:59partly from that, then moving from the EU's position. It has been
0:24:59 > 0:25:02surprisingly dramatic for a process that should have been done and
0:25:02 > 0:25:06dusted sometime back.Sean, some people thought whenever a deal was
0:25:06 > 0:25:10reached last Friday that that was it, we can all breathe a collective
0:25:10 > 0:25:15sigh of relief and Brexit had been put to bed. Nothing could be further
0:25:15 > 0:25:21from the truth in fact!That is correct. I think last week
0:25:21 > 0:25:25businesses, both in the UK and across the EU, breathe a huge sigh
0:25:25 > 0:25:29of relief because this one was the easy part in the negotiations, from
0:25:29 > 0:25:36a business perspective. Phase two, dealing with complex issues around
0:25:36 > 0:25:40regulatory alignment, customs procedures, Health and Safety, goods
0:25:40 > 0:25:47and services and the market, these are incredibly complex issues.Your
0:25:47 > 0:25:51organisation represents business, third sector organisations. You've
0:25:51 > 0:25:56got a very strong Irish connection, it is an Irish company of course. Do
0:25:56 > 0:26:00you see a lot of common ground with the issues they are Sean is talking
0:26:00 > 0:26:04about as well, the kind of concerns that the people you are representing
0:26:04 > 0:26:09are bringing to the table at the moment?Absolutely. I think that
0:26:09 > 0:26:13certainty, whether for business or other organisations, on both sides,
0:26:13 > 0:26:19is absolutely critical. How do you plan what is going to happen in
0:26:19 > 0:26:22March 2019, what is going to happen after a transition? Where are we
0:26:22 > 0:26:25actually getting with this? What is the future of Europe going to look
0:26:25 > 0:26:30like without the UK in it? All of these questions are critical to
0:26:30 > 0:26:36decisions that any organisation is actually contemplating at this
0:26:36 > 0:26:40point, and planning ahead to deal with.Sean, there are clearly
0:26:40 > 0:26:45challenges in all of this, but business is no stranger to
0:26:45 > 0:26:51challenge. Are there also potential opportunities here that could be
0:26:51 > 0:26:54grasped in future?Indeed, business is incredibly pragmatic and Brexit
0:26:54 > 0:26:59if one of the risks that they have to deal with, among many, but Brexit
0:26:59 > 0:27:05of course is at Management board level, top management. People are
0:27:05 > 0:27:08looking at where are the opportunities for Brexit. One of the
0:27:08 > 0:27:13most evident once is around exploring markets across the world,
0:27:13 > 0:27:19not just the the European Union. Gill, how do you feel of a challenge
0:27:19 > 0:27:23first opportunity?, yes, I was just going to to that obviously
0:27:23 > 0:27:26businesses incredibly pragmatic, but they need to know what regime they
0:27:26 > 0:27:29are operating under, and it is that lack of certainty to know which has
0:27:29 > 0:27:33proved to be the most challenging thing, I think, that as soon as they
0:27:33 > 0:27:39know which conditions they will have to operate under, they can make
0:27:39 > 0:27:43their decisions about where they want to operate, where they need a
0:27:43 > 0:27:46licence, where they want to invest and where they want to employ
0:27:46 > 0:27:51people. It is that lack of certainty that I think is undermining business
0:27:51 > 0:27:57risk at the moment. Nicholas, there is not a voice for
0:27:57 > 0:28:01Northern Ireland at the heart of this debate at the moment. How big
0:28:01 > 0:28:07an issue is that? Irrelevant, or not very much You can keep up to date
0:28:07 > 0:28:09with the latest news and weather throughout the day via our Twitter
0:28:09 > 0:28:12feed it is a huge issue.The fact is, the Scottish Government and
0:28:12 > 0:28:14Welsh government are here pretty much every week making sure that
0:28:14 > 0:28:18their viewpoint is understood. Making sure that they are being held
0:28:18 > 0:28:21at commission level, Parliament level. And they do not have
0:28:21 > 0:28:24something similar from Northern Ireland because of the lack of an
0:28:24 > 0:28:27Executive. It does make a difference. It means that we are
0:28:27 > 0:28:31being talked about in the third person all of the time, rather than
0:28:31 > 0:28:34the first second person. Even though we have got a Secretary
0:28:34 > 0:28:39of State, even though, clearly, the Irish dimension is covered by the
0:28:39 > 0:28:44Taoiseach?And, indeed, by the Irish diplomats here who are extremely
0:28:44 > 0:28:47good at ensuring that the Irish viewpoint is heard clearly. Of
0:28:47 > 0:28:50course, the job is not to speak for Northern Ireland but for the
0:28:50 > 0:28:55Republic. They are extremely good at keeping everyone informed of what
0:28:55 > 0:28:58the Irish government is doing, in fact I have heard comments from the
0:28:58 > 0:29:01Scottish Government that they get better information from Dublin and
0:29:01 > 0:29:06London, which is a bit shocking about the Brexit process.I agree
0:29:06 > 0:29:11about Scotland. I have been an adviser to the Scottish Government
0:29:11 > 0:29:17on Brexit as well and you can see how important it is for them to stay
0:29:17 > 0:29:22connected, how important it is for them to stress how much part of the
0:29:22 > 0:29:27European process they continue to see themselves being, pre-Brexit,
0:29:27 > 0:29:30post-Brexit.I think it is worth bearing in mind, well we can
0:29:30 > 0:29:34understand and left the Northern Ireland issue every day, for a lot
0:29:34 > 0:29:37of the Europeans, Northern Ireland has not been in the news for 20
0:29:37 > 0:29:43years. There was quite a big exercise in educating both political
0:29:43 > 0:29:48leaders and, indeed, business representatives from across Europe
0:29:48 > 0:29:51widely Northern Ireland questions are so important, because of the
0:29:51 > 0:29:55peace that has resulted from the Good Friday Agreement.So, did
0:29:55 > 0:30:04Northern Ireland just a pure left field out of nowhere?One of the
0:30:04 > 0:30:08challenges and it is difficult, a lot of the issues that have related
0:30:08 > 0:30:11to Northern Ireland by Trulli phase two issues. Actually dealing coming
0:30:11 > 0:30:18up with the solutions for phase one of the Northern Ireland question is
0:30:18 > 0:30:24dependent on what future regime the UK has with the rest of the EU. It's
0:30:24 > 0:30:27difficult to have a complex, comprehensive answer and solution to
0:30:27 > 0:30:31the Northern Ireland question because the commission was very
0:30:31 > 0:30:38clear that we had to deal with phase one issue for phase two.There is a
0:30:38 > 0:30:42gap, clearly, between the British world to you and the Irish
0:30:42 > 0:30:48worldview. -- British worldview. That brought it into sharp relief.
0:30:48 > 0:30:55Will the gap because all will that be a problem -- or will that be a
0:30:55 > 0:30:59problem in the next 18 months and beyond?There is a fundamental part
0:30:59 > 0:31:03of the British media scene which is British people and particularly
0:31:03 > 0:31:06British politicians tend to read only British newspaper. The problem
0:31:06 > 0:31:10is the French and Germans and indeed Irish all with their own newspapers
0:31:10 > 0:31:15but also read the British newspapers as well. You therefore have a
0:31:15 > 0:31:19situation that everybody else understands the British worldview
0:31:19 > 0:31:26because they are reading it and hearing it. But there isn't the same
0:31:26 > 0:31:28feeling of engagement from the British side with the rest of Europe
0:31:28 > 0:31:34with the rest of the world.Is that a position of splendid isolation?
0:31:34 > 0:31:38Splendour anyway whether it is isolation or not. I think that is a
0:31:38 > 0:31:44fundamental problem.Certainly our feeling and what we are hearing from
0:31:44 > 0:31:48sources across the European government that there is a huge rise
0:31:48 > 0:31:53of sympathy for the question about the border. Particularly for Ireland
0:31:53 > 0:31:58as a result of this because they will suffer some economic hardship.
0:31:58 > 0:32:03There is a question about what can be done to before them. -- support
0:32:03 > 0:32:07them.What do you think post-Brexit Brussels might look like or is it
0:32:07 > 0:32:11too early to start thinking about that?You have to think what is the
0:32:11 > 0:32:15role of the UK in the European Union since it started? And join for
0:32:15 > 0:32:20economic reasons, is not even for political reasons. If you look at
0:32:20 > 0:32:23the economic agenda of Europe at the moment, it has now been submitted.
0:32:23 > 0:32:29It's around free and fair trade, open markets, competition, single
0:32:29 > 0:32:34market, digital, these are all agenda points that successive UK
0:32:34 > 0:32:42Government and the British community has pushed. The UK is a strong
0:32:42 > 0:32:46advocate. You take one from the table and you have a shift in access
0:32:46 > 0:32:50to a more protectionist agenda whether it is French or Italian.
0:32:50 > 0:32:54There is a big fear within the EU business community and in certain
0:32:54 > 0:32:59governments that the loss of that British voice and pragmatism of
0:32:59 > 0:33:03competition that Europe could become a bit more inward looking and
0:33:03 > 0:33:06protectionist. That is not in the UK business interest because it is our
0:33:06 > 0:33:13biggest trading market.You agree that?Terms of voices, one thing we
0:33:13 > 0:33:18will hear more of an Irish voices from both sides of the border.
0:33:18 > 0:33:24English remains the working language of the European Union and their
0:33:24 > 0:33:26weedy rumours after the referendum that might
0:33:28 > 0:33:32in this type -- there were rumours that might stop at every deal done
0:33:32 > 0:33:38is in English. The British removing themselves from the job market, that
0:33:38 > 0:33:41will create opportunities for people with Irish citizenship from the
0:33:41 > 0:33:48north and go public. -- and the republic. Partly linguistic thing
0:33:48 > 0:33:54and partly because there was the clarity of understanding with the UK
0:33:54 > 0:33:58in the future and that will remain an issue with Brussels for some time
0:33:58 > 0:34:01to come.Fascinating situation, thank you all very much indeed for
0:34:01 > 0:34:04joining us.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10That's the view of some of our ex-pats living
0:34:10 > 0:34:11and working here in Brussels.
0:34:11 > 0:34:15With me now is our Europe Correspondent, Kevin Connolly.
0:34:15 > 0:34:21And George Parker from the financial time. Welcome to you both. Kevin
0:34:21 > 0:34:25drum of the main business today was not about Brexit, it's being
0:34:25 > 0:34:30discussed tomorrow, Theresa May is not here?That's right, there is
0:34:30 > 0:34:35ironic moment in the Brexit posters, the big, good moment for the UK's
0:34:35 > 0:34:40point of view, the rules of the EU will not be here, she now sit the EU
0:34:40 > 0:34:46at 28. The rest of the European Union passed the United Kingdom of
0:34:46 > 0:34:49course, she then leads one to talk about Brexit, that critical moment,
0:34:49 > 0:34:55the moment she has been waiting for when they say the test of sufficient
0:34:55 > 0:34:59presence of the past one shall be back in London, she did as a
0:34:59 > 0:35:01compensation as discussed together round of applause this vehicle. The
0:35:01 > 0:35:04first one of the browsers I would guess possibly the last in the
0:35:04 > 0:35:11process for quite someit's intriguing she got it, I was asking
0:35:11 > 0:35:18Laura Kuenssberg Eardley, was that a sympathy vote?European leaders have
0:35:18 > 0:35:24loved Bond Theresa May because they've got fear something worse
0:35:24 > 0:35:29like Boris Johnson as leader. They want to shore up her position,
0:35:29 > 0:35:31someone fairly moderate on the European issue and keep her on
0:35:31 > 0:35:36track. We have seen the summit a lot of support for Theresa May, there
0:35:36 > 0:35:42was a moment over aperitif between Angela Merkel and Theresa May where
0:35:42 > 0:35:44they explained pleasantries about working with minority government.
0:35:44 > 0:35:50Our support and sympathy for her. She had a meeting with Leo Varadkar,
0:35:50 > 0:35:53how bigger difficulty is she in at the moment as a leader, particularly
0:35:53 > 0:35:56after losing the vote in the House of Commons early in the week was
0:35:56 > 0:36:00because she has glossed over that. She says with one photo
0:36:02 > 0:36:11-- one-vote among many. How much that is actually going to matter,
0:36:11 > 0:36:15the parliamentary defeat, atmospherically, people via Tele
0:36:15 > 0:36:16macro Leo Varadkar welly saying
0:36:19 > 0:36:24-- worry about carrying on talking to the government because it is the
0:36:24 > 0:36:30government. But it does send a chill through the process that as she
0:36:30 > 0:36:33arrives, George, surely the fact she has just lost a vote is not looking
0:36:33 > 0:36:38great.I think she is in trouble, they read the British labels and
0:36:38 > 0:36:43asked if she can deliver on packs in 2018? Do you think she is in
0:36:43 > 0:36:48trouble? Now, I think her weakness is her strength. People in the
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Conservative Party whether they are Eurosceptic or pro-Europe, think
0:36:51 > 0:36:56that moving Theresa May will make things worse, creating chaos in the
0:36:56 > 0:36:58Conservative Party, the leadership contest, nobody knows who will win,
0:36:58 > 0:37:03and the possibility of a general election and Brexit going up in
0:37:03 > 0:37:10smoke. Everybody, such as angler Michael, Bill Cash, or want to keep
0:37:10 > 0:37:18Theresa May going right through to 2018 and Brexit.We think there will
0:37:18 > 0:37:23be significant process to phase two. Phase one has not been completely
0:37:23 > 0:37:26sorted out, there are still outstanding issues, what are the
0:37:26 > 0:37:29next step is to look out for?Nobody needs to feel nostalgic about the
0:37:29 > 0:37:33celebrated phase one issues of the border and citizens rights and the
0:37:33 > 0:37:37money because they are not fixed. Just enough process is then made so
0:37:37 > 0:37:42far to allow us to stop talking. First of all, transition. -- starts
0:37:42 > 0:37:54talking. First of all, transition, for the 2019, the UK will feel like
0:37:54 > 0:37:56they are in the European Union with the crucial difference they have no
0:37:56 > 0:38:03longer a voice at summits like this but they will to all intents and
0:38:03 > 0:38:10purposes remain a member, then as a going along, issues like defence
0:38:10 > 0:38:13cooperation where Britain feels it strong, and the feet of trade, the
0:38:13 > 0:38:17border, they would say it has been kicked down the road, they would say
0:38:17 > 0:38:20the cam has been lifted up and carefully placed at a strategic
0:38:20 > 0:38:27point of further down the road. That is far from settled. I don't see
0:38:27 > 0:38:30what the settlement on the board is that squares the circle.I don't
0:38:30 > 0:38:36think there is a solution. It's a classic fudge and to mix the
0:38:36 > 0:38:40metaphors, the fudge has been kicked down the road. We don't know how you
0:38:40 > 0:38:44can fix the situation, that two different customs regimes existing
0:38:44 > 0:38:49alongside each other where you don't have border control.Both sides in
0:38:49 > 0:38:53that fudge think it has been sorted out to that satisfaction.They are
0:38:53 > 0:38:56strident about that.But they haven't thought of the border
0:38:56 > 0:39:01question.They have sorted out a load of wording that gets past the
0:39:01 > 0:39:05council. Mobley is worked out how to sort it out, and were speaking to
0:39:05 > 0:39:08someone from the Treasury asking what they will do about it, if you
0:39:08 > 0:39:12have ideas, but in a letter and send them in.Is not the first time in
0:39:12 > 0:39:15the history that the British think they found an answer to the Irish
0:39:15 > 0:39:20question in some form of elastic wording, this than some point down
0:39:20 > 0:39:26the road the elastic will go. There's plenty to keep you in
0:39:26 > 0:39:31business for some future.This is going to suck all the energy out of
0:39:31 > 0:39:37British politics.Is in for me for foreseeable future. It took 11 years
0:39:37 > 0:39:42for the British to negotiate into the European unit in the 1960s, I
0:39:42 > 0:39:47wouldn't say it was certain it would take less time to get back out
0:39:47 > 0:39:49again.Kevin, George, thanks for joining us.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52That's it from this special edition of The View live from the press
0:39:52 > 0:39:54centre in the European Council building in Brussels,
0:39:54 > 0:39:57where some crucial discussions have been going on and will continue
0:39:57 > 0:39:58to go on.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00Thanks to everyone here at the Council for their help.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35am here on BBC One.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05We leave you tonight with some festive fun from the beautiful
0:40:05 > 0:40:08Grande Place here in Brussels.
0:40:08 > 0:40:15Thanks for watching. From all of us, goodbye.