0:00:13 > 0:00:15After 12 months of deadlines, what difference will one more make?
0:00:15 > 0:00:17The new Secretary of State says the Stormont talks
0:00:17 > 0:00:20are worth one last shot, but does anyone else think so?
0:00:20 > 0:00:28Welcome to The View.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Karen Bradley says the gaps between the DUP
0:00:39 > 0:00:42and Sinn Fein are narrow - so how can she then say
0:00:42 > 0:00:46there are still significant differences to overcome?
0:00:46 > 0:00:48We're about to find out where the reality lies
0:00:48 > 0:00:49in the next few weeks.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52And tonight we'll get a taste of what's to come.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55We'll hear from three of the five parties involved in the talks.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58And if you think no Stormont means you don't
0:00:58 > 0:01:00have a voice, what about copying the Citizens' Assembly
0:01:00 > 0:01:04in the Republic?
0:01:04 > 0:01:08I think something like this would be very timely in Northern Ireland. You
0:01:08 > 0:01:13have this vacuum right now. Why not use this opportunity the vacuum has
0:01:13 > 0:01:17created to try something like this?
0:01:17 > 0:01:19And bringing you the voice of the people in Commentators'
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Corner - Allison Morris from the Irish News,
0:01:21 > 0:01:24and the News Letter's Sam McBride.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26So, ten days into her new job and Karen Bradley
0:01:26 > 0:01:29has announced a fresh talks process aimed at getting Stormont
0:01:29 > 0:01:32up and running again.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34The Secretary of State said it could be the last opportunity
0:01:34 > 0:01:36to restore devolution, though she refused to be drawn
0:01:36 > 0:01:42on what options she might consider if the negotiations fail.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46The five parties and the Dublin government are also signed up, and -
0:01:46 > 0:01:48standing alongside Simon Coveney earlier today - she outlined
0:01:48 > 0:01:56the urgency facing the process.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06Based on my conversations so far, I believe it is possible to reach
0:02:06 > 0:02:13agreement. Progress must be swift.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17It is clear that Northern Ireland needs strong devolved government and
0:02:17 > 0:02:21political leadership.Are we talking about weeks rather than months here?
0:02:21 > 0:02:27I think it is fair to say this is urgent. I think there is angrowing
0:02:27 > 0:02:31realisation decisions need to be made by people elected here. All of
0:02:31 > 0:02:37our focus is on success, not failure.It must be a fair and
0:02:37 > 0:02:41balanced deal, one capable of being supported on all sides.Clearly
0:02:41 > 0:02:46there is no public appetite for long drawn-out discussions so I think it
0:02:46 > 0:02:48is important it is a short and sharp negotiation.
0:02:48 > 0:02:50Well, joining me now are the Ulster Unionist Roy Beggs,
0:02:50 > 0:02:52Dolores Kelly from the SDLP and the Alliance
0:02:52 > 0:02:53Party's Chris Lyttle.
0:02:53 > 0:02:57We did ask to speak to the DUP and Sinn Fein but we were told
0:02:57 > 0:03:01no one was available.
0:03:01 > 0:03:07Welcome to the three of you. Dolores Kelly, first of all.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10We've seen talks deadlines come and go over the past 12 months -
0:03:10 > 0:03:13what expectation do you have that this time it'll be different?
0:03:13 > 0:03:15I think in the backdrop of the crisis within the health sector and
0:03:15 > 0:03:19indeed education I think people are starting to get very angry and
0:03:19 > 0:03:23seeing what the absence of political leadership and decision-making makes
0:03:23 > 0:03:27to their lives.What is the evidence people are getting angry?I see it
0:03:27 > 0:03:33on the doorstep, and talking to people daily. You see it in the news
0:03:33 > 0:03:36columns, the editor's pages, people starting to have their voices heard,
0:03:36 > 0:03:44but I agree there is some way to go yet. But certainly
0:03:46 > 0:03:49yet. But certainly more and more people are stopping me in the
0:03:49 > 0:03:51street, talking to me all over the place, and saying that basically
0:03:51 > 0:03:53they want to see Stormont up and running, looking at decision-making
0:03:53 > 0:03:57and what is going on.Are they not a little annoyed and apathetic because
0:03:57 > 0:04:01after a year of no Stormont, this guy has not fallen in?I wouldn't
0:04:01 > 0:04:06agree. I think political parties need a serious reality check. We
0:04:06 > 0:04:09have serious problems in health service, older people waiting on
0:04:09 > 0:04:12trolleys in our hospital wards, school budgets under serious
0:04:12 > 0:04:17pressure, class sizes too big, teachers being made redundant,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20special education reduced. I think the parties need to realise there
0:04:20 > 0:04:26are serious issues. That we need to get back in the address, the
0:04:26 > 0:04:29restoration of the talks process. We have constructive puzzles we will
0:04:29 > 0:04:33put forward but we need a change of attitude from the political parties.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38The reality is we had all those problems and more before the storm
0:04:38 > 0:04:41and project fell apart, and there are similar problems in health and
0:04:41 > 0:04:45education in the Republic of Ireland and in Great Britain. It is not the
0:04:45 > 0:04:48absence of politicians working at Stormont cause and those problems.
0:04:48 > 0:04:54It doesn't help, but it is not the cause.I disagree. Those problems
0:04:54 > 0:04:58are getting worse. We face the need to put the budget in place by
0:04:58 > 0:05:01February and that needs to be done by locally elected representatives,
0:05:01 > 0:05:05and we have a privilege and responsibility to take that
0:05:05 > 0:05:09ownership of those issues, and I sincerely hope the political parties
0:05:09 > 0:05:14take that opportunity given to them. It doesn't need to be done by those
0:05:14 > 0:05:19politicians. It could be done by direct rule ministers.It absolutely
0:05:19 > 0:05:24does, direct rule ministers have not taken the strategic decisions
0:05:24 > 0:05:27necessary, they have sown. They don't have the same accountability
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Government ministers can be helped and we very much need locally
0:05:30 > 0:05:34elected ministers in place to deal with these issues -- they have
0:05:34 > 0:05:39shown.You want that but it doesn't necessarily have to be the case.I
0:05:39 > 0:05:44think it does. I have seen locally elected ministers show greater
0:05:44 > 0:05:48responsibility with those issues. They are more accessible and
0:05:48 > 0:05:52consecutive Secretary of States have not taken the right decisions in the
0:05:52 > 0:05:56absence of consent is with parties here so we need to take that
0:05:56 > 0:06:03ourselves.Roy Beggs, do you think it is desirable are essential?Not
0:06:03 > 0:06:07essential but very desirable because it gives them accountable
0:06:07 > 0:06:10legitimacy. Undoubtedly we need a budget in place. Not only to allow
0:06:10 > 0:06:15the health service and other board to ignite bodies to plan better for
0:06:15 > 0:06:19the year...Karen Bradley could put a budget in place in consultation
0:06:19 > 0:06:24with Northern Ireland's civil servants, if she had to.And if
0:06:24 > 0:06:28politicians do not step up to the mark and reach a sensible
0:06:28 > 0:06:34arrangement something like that will probably happen.That is my point.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Well, actually the DUP and the Tories are making the decision, that
0:06:37 > 0:06:41is the problem.One of the difficulties in doing this, we will
0:06:41 > 0:06:44not be able to draw them could use of the additional money available.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49We do need a local assembler, local executive, to draw down and make use
0:06:49 > 0:06:54of that money.What money are you talking about? Additional money? We
0:06:54 > 0:07:04have had clarification on that today. You
0:07:04 > 0:07:06today. You don't need local politicians at Stormont for that
0:07:06 > 0:07:09money to be drawn down.It can be drawn down a lot faster and do a lot
0:07:09 > 0:07:11more good if there are local politicians taking the decisions
0:07:11 > 0:07:14along with that.The Secretary of State made a bit of a mistake today,
0:07:14 > 0:07:17firstly to Sam MacBride, and we will speak to him later in the programme,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20that local politicians had to be in place to draw that money down, then
0:07:20 > 0:07:23she had to issue a clarification on the back of what Nigel Dodds was
0:07:23 > 0:07:27saying on social media, that that is not the case.We have heard this
0:07:27 > 0:07:33before. This was a story with James Brokenshire, a similar story. Local
0:07:33 > 0:07:36decision-making, the executive had to come first, then they heard it
0:07:36 > 0:07:39wasn't, and that shows the relationship between the DUP and the
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Tories. I think the last thing people in the North want is for
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Jeremy Hunt to making decisions around the health service here in
0:07:46 > 0:07:53the North. It should and must be locally elected politicians.Chris
0:07:53 > 0:07:56Lyttle, do you believe the two main parties actually want devolution to
0:07:56 > 0:08:01be restored in Northern Ireland? Or are we just going through some kind
0:08:01 > 0:08:05of Charente where we need to be seen to be giving a final role of the
0:08:05 > 0:08:08days?I sincerely hope it is not awry because they are playing with
0:08:08 > 0:08:11the lively diplomat of people right across our community on the widest
0:08:11 > 0:08:17range of fish as possible. I said that they need a reality check --
0:08:17 > 0:08:22they are playing with the livelihoods of people. The budget
0:08:22 > 0:08:27put forward as a result of the confidence, and it is drop in the
0:08:27 > 0:08:31ocean in terms of the savings and reform that needs to be in Northern
0:08:31 > 0:08:37Ireland -- on the widest range of issues as possible.When they say
0:08:37 > 0:08:42they want to see devolution restored, and they are serious about
0:08:42 > 0:08:45that, at the same time they have made it very clear time and again in
0:08:45 > 0:08:49the past they are not prepared to make the kind of compromises
0:08:49 > 0:08:53necessary to secure that agreement. The need to be willing to make, for
0:08:53 > 0:08:57mice.Where's the evidence they are prepared to do that? We sit in this
0:08:57 > 0:09:02studio week after week and we are clear on the differences but when
0:09:02 > 0:09:06you ask about the comp myin no small part that is why we have
0:09:06 > 0:09:12called for an independent mediator to chair the stocks.Karen Bradley
0:09:12 > 0:09:16says you don't need one.We are calling for one and we believe it
0:09:16 > 0:09:21will bring the needed skills -- to cheer the discussions.She didn't
0:09:21 > 0:09:27seem terribly well disposed to the idea. Do you think she's capable of
0:09:27 > 0:09:31being an honest broker?We have seen the approach of the two parties so
0:09:31 > 0:09:33far and what that has achieved and I think we should be responsible
0:09:33 > 0:09:39enough in a negotiation, because it is useful to have in an equation and
0:09:39 > 0:09:43independent mediator to bring the transparency and skills to their
0:09:43 > 0:09:48other process.To you all agree with that?Yes, we do. Can I say that in
0:09:48 > 0:09:55this very studio, as I recall, Mr Campbell said that the DUP were
0:09:55 > 0:10:00prepared to compromise and compromise would be needed? Before
0:10:00 > 0:10:03Christmas they said they had stretched themselves for the common
0:10:03 > 0:10:06good. The problem is the public doesn't know, and our party is
0:10:06 > 0:10:10certainly don't know, what deal was almost reached by the DUP and Sinn
0:10:10 > 0:10:15Fein last year.Norma, and you have all asked for the position to be
0:10:15 > 0:10:22published? No clarification as yet? -- no, and you have all asked.
0:10:22 > 0:10:28People need that in no way things are, but the red line, we must get
0:10:28 > 0:10:31our way, our issues, and nobody else, those red lines must be
0:10:31 > 0:10:37removed.Do you see that equally of both Sinn Fein and the DUP? .Only
0:10:37 > 0:10:46red lines I know are of Sinn Fein, we
0:10:46 > 0:10:49we must get A, B, C, D and E.You think Sinn Fein are being
0:10:49 > 0:10:53unreasonable but the DUP are being perfectly reasonable?You could form
0:10:53 > 0:10:57an executive today if everybody allowed it to happen.But it isn't
0:10:57 > 0:11:02that simple, is it? If it was an could've been done a year ago.Who
0:11:02 > 0:11:07is stopping it?Well, who is stopping it happen?The real problem
0:11:07 > 0:11:11is the failure of these two parties to work collectively for the benefit
0:11:11 > 0:11:18of all the people in Northern Ireland.Hang on, OK. That one way
0:11:18 > 0:11:22of looking at it. Another way, Roy Beggs, is to say 66% of people who
0:11:22 > 0:11:27voted here in the general election last June backed the DUP and Sinn
0:11:27 > 0:11:30Fein, so those parties now have very big mandate is not to compromise on
0:11:30 > 0:11:35the key issues separating them? Where do we go from the Allison?It
0:11:35 > 0:11:43is not up for me to tell you. -- where do we go from here?It is not
0:11:43 > 0:11:48up to me to tell you but I am asking the question.They have created the
0:11:48 > 0:11:52barrier and they need to fix it. They went to the electorate and got
0:11:52 > 0:11:56very solid support, much bigger than all of you got, even combine, for
0:11:56 > 0:11:59them to continue with their existing positions.
0:11:59 > 0:12:04But is it not irresponsible to go forward with a manifesto which
0:12:04 > 0:12:06blocks democratic progress in Northern Ireland and democratic
0:12:06 > 0:12:11accountability? Both have been irresponsible and have created the
0:12:11 > 0:12:16problems.They don't think they have been responsible. They thumped you
0:12:16 > 0:12:22at the polls, Dolores Kelly?Not me personally.Your party.What they
0:12:22 > 0:12:27presided over in their years apart is actually creating a more divided
0:12:27 > 0:12:30society and community. We have had the fresh start. Where has that
0:12:30 > 0:12:38gone?Lets not go back. We are where we are.Yes, but Sinn Fein and the
0:12:38 > 0:12:42DUP had a joint charge of all of the bodies, the accountability
0:12:42 > 0:12:45mechanisms such as the equality commission in terms of protecting
0:12:45 > 0:12:49the rights of citizens across the North, so Sinn Fein and the DUP have
0:12:49 > 0:12:53got us into this mess, and if they have such a big mandates, where are
0:12:53 > 0:12:57they to make? Why are they afraid to sit on a panel with the other
0:12:57 > 0:13:01parties and face the public?We asked them to take part and they
0:13:01 > 0:13:07chose, as is their right, not to come tonight. I can't tell you any
0:13:07 > 0:13:09more than that but they are not there. Maybe you'll hear what they
0:13:09 > 0:13:13have to say next Wednesday and maybe next week when the talks have begun,
0:13:13 > 0:13:18or maybe you won't. Who knows? Where do we go from here, Chris Lyttle? We
0:13:18 > 0:13:21have seen it all over the last 12 months and it doesn't seem a lot has
0:13:21 > 0:13:25changed. The Secretary of State says there are significant divisions but
0:13:25 > 0:13:31it is a narrow gap rather than a weighed one. Is it credible?
0:13:31 > 0:13:35We certainly hope so and we have ourselves put forward significant
0:13:35 > 0:13:40proposals over some of the issues the DUP and Sinn Fein have presented
0:13:40 > 0:13:48as sticking points, including minority language, and we have
0:13:48 > 0:13:51proposed freeing votes in the Assembly on those occasions...If
0:13:51 > 0:13:56they wanted to reach agreement, in your view, they could?We believe
0:13:56 > 0:14:00so. The Alliance Party we believe has put forward constructive
0:14:00 > 0:14:06proposals. We will have worked constructively on their red lines
0:14:06 > 0:14:09and the mandate you referred to we believe require us to deal with
0:14:09 > 0:14:12those issues to get on with the pressing issues we face in our
0:14:12 > 0:14:16community around health, education, the voluntary sector and the
0:14:16 > 0:14:22economy.Briefly, optimistic or not optimistic?Always try to be
0:14:22 > 0:14:25optimistic and certainly our party going in with the construct of
0:14:25 > 0:14:29mindset to make it work.I hope there will be transparency of where
0:14:29 > 0:14:33they are and we can move forward but we need a willingness and I have yet
0:14:33 > 0:14:36to see that.We will leave it there and watched development as they
0:14:36 > 0:14:41unfold with interest. Thank you all very much for joining us tonight.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44The View has learned that plans for a Citizens' Assembly
0:14:44 > 0:14:46here are advanced and organisers hope the forum will be up
0:14:46 > 0:14:47and running this year.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50The unofficial body will be made up of 99 people picked
0:14:50 > 0:14:52randomly from the electoral roll who reflect Northern Irish society.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54They'll be asked to debate subjects that the politicians
0:14:54 > 0:14:56have failed to agree on.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59But will it really achieve anything, or is it doomed to become just
0:14:59 > 0:15:00another talking shop?
0:15:00 > 0:15:08Stephen Walker has been investigating...
0:15:09 > 0:15:14Malahide, County Dublin, and in this seafront hotel and experiment on
0:15:14 > 0:15:20democracy is taking place.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24Set up in 2016 this assembly is made up of
0:15:24 > 0:15:2699 citizens who were chosen at random.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Their job is to discussion and debate political and
0:15:28 > 0:15:33constitutional issues and come up with conclusions.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36They are talking about the fine print of politics yet not one of
0:15:36 > 0:15:41these people is a politician. This Assembly is made up of 99 citizens
0:15:41 > 0:15:45chosen at random. Their job is to discuss and debate controversial
0:15:45 > 0:15:49political issues and come up with conclusions. Those conclusions are
0:15:49 > 0:15:53then sent to the Government who must then provide a response.
0:15:53 > 0:15:59It is clear those who sit on the Assembly find it rewarding.I think
0:15:59 > 0:16:02it works because it enables your average person in the street to
0:16:02 > 0:16:10become involved in the conversation, at a political level.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13It has outcomes because we are able to make recommendations to
0:16:13 > 0:16:17Parliament.
0:16:17 > 0:16:18to make recommendations to Parliament.But those conclusions
0:16:18 > 0:16:22are only advisory.I suppose it is all very well having a group of
0:16:22 > 0:16:25citizens coming together and making recommendations here about topics
0:16:25 > 0:16:31but the critical part is what happens next. Will something be done
0:16:31 > 0:16:36about it, will our voices be heard, will action be taken?What will we
0:16:36 > 0:16:40learn from this citizens assembly? Would it provide a platform for
0:16:40 > 0:16:46debate and discussion in the absence of devolution? And with we establish
0:16:46 > 0:16:51something like that what issues will be discussed?Very timely and I
0:16:51 > 0:16:53think that is in Northern Ireland, we have this vacuum
0:16:53 > 0:16:54think that is in Northern Ireland, we have this vacuum right now and
0:16:54 > 0:16:57why not use this opportunity with the vacuum created to try something
0:16:57 > 0:17:05like this. We are focusing on issues south of the border that can work,
0:17:05 > 0:17:11why not try it north?From this Belfast office a citizen boss like
0:17:11 > 0:17:16-- assembly is being planned. The idea is to run this examined in
0:17:16 > 0:17:212018, with one signal topic and functioning over two weekends so you
0:17:21 > 0:17:25would have two week is where hundreds of members of the public
0:17:25 > 0:17:29would come together and discussed with topics with Esler witnesses and
0:17:29 > 0:17:33ask them questions and deliberate with one another, and the key thing
0:17:33 > 0:17:38here is talking to people who have different views from them. To sum a
0:17:38 > 0:17:43citizens assembly is a great way of testing opinion.I hear politicians
0:17:43 > 0:17:48he volley say all the time most people say... They don't know what
0:17:48 > 0:17:50most people say, but a citizens assembly as ways of finding out
0:17:50 > 0:17:54about.Why do you think it would work?It would work can be helpful
0:17:54 > 0:18:00and I think it is the only proposal that I can see that would get an
0:18:00 > 0:18:06assembly back up and running. In the medium term.Last week and Steven
0:18:06 > 0:18:16Agnew joint politicians and observed the assembly south of the border.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20Our concern what they Northern Ireland version would consider.In
0:18:20 > 0:18:23the Republic it has been used as a sounding board for controversial
0:18:23 > 0:18:27social issues such as a redefinition of marriage and changing the
0:18:27 > 0:18:34abortion legislation. I think there's the decisions there that
0:18:34 > 0:18:36should be made by educated assemblies, and they are important
0:18:36 > 0:18:42and made by elected representatives, rather than a unanswerable group.
0:18:42 > 0:18:47Creating a new assembly for the debate has been tried before. Back
0:18:47 > 0:18:50in 2000 a Civic Forum was set up with people appointed from different
0:18:50 > 0:18:57sectors of society. So is there any room for a fresh body?We have our
0:18:57 > 0:19:00own Northern Ireland assembly, we had a Civic Forum in Northern
0:19:00 > 0:19:06Ireland until 2000 and. It does golf for 15 years and no one seems to
0:19:06 > 0:19:11have missed it. What we need to decide is whether there is a need
0:19:11 > 0:19:16for a third tier of government somewhere.Supporters say a citizens
0:19:16 > 0:19:20assembly is not the same of the old Civic Forum.This is very, very
0:19:20 > 0:19:22different and is asking ordinary people as opposed to representative
0:19:22 > 0:19:28bodies to come together and give the example shown in the south that it
0:19:28 > 0:19:33works. It shows it can be done quickly and the costs are absolutely
0:19:33 > 0:19:39marginal.A pilot scheme will cost around £200,000. Half of that money
0:19:39 > 0:19:42has already been pledged and a group has been appointed to run the
0:19:42 > 0:19:47operation. Topics for debate have you not yet been chosen but could
0:19:47 > 0:19:49include issues like the transfer test for organ donation. Or
0:19:49 > 0:19:56political deadlock.I think you will be surprised how 100 ordinary people
0:19:56 > 0:20:00could very quickly come to practical, pragmatic, achievable
0:20:00 > 0:20:05solutions and the politicians could be very grateful for that help.So
0:20:05 > 0:20:12later this year 99 citizens and a chairperson will meet. It will be an
0:20:12 > 0:20:15assembly, albeit an unofficial one looking for some like in a political
0:20:15 > 0:20:22landscape that for 12 months has been shrouded in uncertainty.
0:20:22 > 0:20:23Stephen Walker reporting.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25And joining me now with two very different perspectives
0:20:25 > 0:20:27on a Citizens' Assembly are the Green Party's Steven Agnew,
0:20:27 > 0:20:29who appeared in that film, and in Manchester,
0:20:29 > 0:20:30Professor Jon Tonge.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32Jon Tonge, you aren't persuaded that this kind
0:20:32 > 0:20:38of exercise is useful in fact - why not?
0:20:38 > 0:20:42Well, I don't see where it would get us. It won't break the deadlock. Why
0:20:42 > 0:20:45has there been a deadlock over the last 12 months question at the pit
0:20:45 > 0:20:51bull with has been disagrees with -- disagreement over the last month
0:20:51 > 0:20:57with a Irish language act. There were 1200, not 100 voters would be a
0:20:57 > 0:21:02more representative sample. One third of people said yes one third
0:21:02 > 0:21:06said no and one third said they don't know. If you put 100 people in
0:21:06 > 0:21:13the room, all we have is a other dysfunctional assembly. We can't
0:21:13 > 0:21:17have consensus out of a citizens assembly. I agree it has worked
0:21:17 > 0:21:19quite well in the Irish Republic but the Irish Republic doesn't have the
0:21:19 > 0:21:25problems that Northern Ireland has. You can't export the model from the
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Republic to the north and expected to work as well.You can't export
0:21:28 > 0:21:34the model from the Republic and Northern Ireland because we have
0:21:34 > 0:21:37additional political sensitivities. Did you buy that? The reality is the
0:21:37 > 0:21:44assembly, as we know the assembler assemblies dead. We have a talks
0:21:44 > 0:21:47process coming up which is a repetition of what we have had
0:21:47 > 0:21:52before. No new independent chair, nothing really different. It is the
0:21:52 > 0:21:56definition of madness, doing the same thing over again expecting a
0:21:56 > 0:22:01different result. We are in a place where need throwing to try something
0:22:01 > 0:22:04different. What we ignore is that the presence of the citizens
0:22:04 > 0:22:08assembly, perhaps if you sampled people now and ask them for their
0:22:08 > 0:22:12views you would get the type of division he talks about at the
0:22:12 > 0:22:15advantage of something like a citizens assembly if the
0:22:15 > 0:22:18deliberation, the days in between where people start with their
0:22:18 > 0:22:21interview, hear the experts can hear the arguments, and they start to
0:22:21 > 0:22:25change their mind and when I was part of the old constitution
0:22:25 > 0:22:31convention, the forerunner to the citizens assembly I sat and watched
0:22:31 > 0:22:33people change their mind every day. It is something political parties
0:22:33 > 0:22:39can do. If I check my mind I have to go up to hundreds of members, asked
0:22:39 > 0:22:44them if they agree, and put it through debate and conforming.What
0:22:44 > 0:22:47is the point in doing that if they have no say at the end of the day on
0:22:47 > 0:22:53policy? Interestingly Jim Wells talked there about there being no
0:22:53 > 0:22:56need for what he described as a first tier of government. This
0:22:56 > 0:23:00wouldn't be one of those, there would be no authority whatsoever so
0:23:00 > 0:23:02any deliberations would be completely irrelevant, at the end of
0:23:02 > 0:23:08the day.It isn't in the interest in some respects do the DGP to almost
0:23:08 > 0:23:11hand over par but I am a believe it first thing is, one of the first
0:23:11 > 0:23:16things you should do in power is share it.They have been given power
0:23:16 > 0:23:22by the elected in the first place. But I believe in the deliberate
0:23:22 > 0:23:27nation of -- deliberation of democracy. It is about a continuing
0:23:27 > 0:23:32conversation will stop as I said in the peace we hear politicians say
0:23:32 > 0:23:35all the time that they know what people think but we don't come and
0:23:35 > 0:23:40we need to keep that engagement going. And what I would say... The
0:23:40 > 0:23:46process I think does need political meeting, a series of meetings with
0:23:46 > 0:23:50the parties in terms of putting this board I think this should be used to
0:23:50 > 0:23:55review and reform and writer leaves the Good Friday Agreement is, to get
0:23:55 > 0:23:57new institutions reformed institutions and coming up 20 years
0:23:57 > 0:24:01on, I made this point on the 15th anniversary, that if we don't review
0:24:01 > 0:24:06and reform the Good Friday Agreement it will collapse. That was almost
0:24:06 > 0:24:09five years ago, now, and we are faced with the 20th anniversary, no
0:24:09 > 0:24:12assembly, we have to get something back on the ground so the poor
0:24:12 > 0:24:16decisions that were discussed earlier can be made and can be taken
0:24:16 > 0:24:21by local bulimic or local represents this.Jon Tonge, we have a political
0:24:21 > 0:24:24vacuum to my hiatus in Northern Ireland. Maybe our politicians just
0:24:24 > 0:24:29need a little extra bit of help to focus their minds and to comment
0:24:29 > 0:24:33their deliberations and maybe the general public would take to make
0:24:33 > 0:24:37positive out of the exercise as well?There are means of doing that.
0:24:37 > 0:24:42You can go for outside assistance to mediate talks, a replication of
0:24:42 > 0:24:46Senator George Mitchell's role in 1998 on the 20th anniversary of the
0:24:46 > 0:24:52Good Friday Agreement might not be a bad idea. You could ask that, ask
0:24:52 > 0:24:56for control, but would talk about a citizens Emily, there was one in
0:24:56 > 0:25:022000 deemed an 815,000 voters went to the polls and 56% of them voted
0:25:02 > 0:25:07for the DUP and Sinn Fein, adding that Seri that we did of the 200
0:25:07 > 0:25:10voters the fact is they supported the is that we did of the 200 voters
0:25:10 > 0:25:14the fact is they supported the is the tuition which you have to have
0:25:14 > 0:25:18consent in both communities to get a measure through Stormont. That might
0:25:18 > 0:25:24be a recipe for paralysis but the public supported it. Those checks
0:25:24 > 0:25:29and balances put in in 1998 were for a reason, you could argue they have
0:25:29 > 0:25:32been abused or misused but they had a reason behind them. The issue here
0:25:32 > 0:25:36is not about creating a new assembly that would work in the same way that
0:25:36 > 0:25:38the Civic Forum earlier didn't work and I except there are differences
0:25:38 > 0:25:42between the form and the assembly. It is about getting Basson additions
0:25:42 > 0:25:46-- politicians de Kock miles. Last week Edwin Poots said his own
0:25:46 > 0:25:50community and party had to be prepared to make compromises and the
0:25:50 > 0:25:55same needs to be reciprocated from Sinn Fein. That is the way forward.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59But getting more deliberative bodies which was simple reed disagreed. --
0:25:59 > 0:26:08simply disagree. The idea that one third can miraculously change and
0:26:08 > 0:26:12other third's views is far too optimistic. All that would happen
0:26:12 > 0:26:15would be that the citizens assembly would pork back an impasse to the
0:26:15 > 0:26:18politicians who would take that as a further mandate to entrench their
0:26:18 > 0:26:26own views so it could potentially make things worse.Any deal that
0:26:26 > 0:26:30might be done but said last week to be difficult to sell the members of
0:26:30 > 0:26:34the party and party supporters. That is the exact quote. I wonder what
0:26:34 > 0:26:43you think of the other idea floated today just beautifully, a group of
0:26:43 > 0:26:49three former Good Friday Agreement negotiators, for June this year, did
0:26:49 > 0:26:53you throw your weight behind that? That is an aberration of this
0:26:53 > 0:26:57possibility. Politicians have to take tough positions in Northern
0:26:57 > 0:27:00Ireland and if they can't take them you have too wide of the simile. I
0:27:00 > 0:27:04have said for the longest time that a cut in salary or removal of
0:27:04 > 0:27:10salaries might concentrate minds the previous entry estate kept putting
0:27:10 > 0:27:12off decisions. It might be interesting to see if the new one
0:27:12 > 0:27:16can take tough decisions.Would you throw your weight behind that
0:27:16 > 0:27:21referendum?I don't think it is the way. I am approaching it in a
0:27:21 > 0:27:25similar way as he is but the problem with referenda is that they get
0:27:25 > 0:27:27divisive and you don't get that proper, calm deliberation that the
0:27:27 > 0:27:33light of a citizens assembly throws up. John says the public of
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Ireland's isn't as divided a country as Northern Ireland but if you take
0:27:37 > 0:27:42the issue of marriage equality, a divisive issue, it was discussed
0:27:42 > 0:27:46calmly and rationally and assessed in the assembly with a significant
0:27:46 > 0:27:49majority coming out in favour of it. And then it was put to a referendum
0:27:49 > 0:27:54after that considered conversation had been had and. That is the
0:27:54 > 0:27:57advantage that you can take somebody through that process and through
0:27:57 > 0:28:00respectful dialogue around a table like that, with people who don't
0:28:00 > 0:28:03know each other, have a conversation, know each other's
0:28:03 > 0:28:08views and with respect come to a conclusion. But every issue was
0:28:08 > 0:28:12there a definitive answer but let's face it with the number of issues we
0:28:12 > 0:28:15could be faced with, I believe the discussion of the institutions, how
0:28:15 > 0:28:23they would work, the coalition, the petition of concern,
0:28:23 > 0:28:25petition of concern, this is done in Northern Ireland, and then
0:28:25 > 0:28:27politicians might have the framework to make those tough decisions which
0:28:27 > 0:28:30they aren't doing in the first place.I suspect we will come back
0:28:30 > 0:28:33to this in the weeks and months ahead. Thank you very much both for
0:28:33 > 0:28:38joining us today.
0:28:38 > 0:28:39Let's hear what tonight's commentators
0:28:39 > 0:28:40make of what we've been discussing.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42Allison Morris and Sam McBride are with me again...
0:28:42 > 0:28:49New talks?
0:28:49 > 0:28:53Short, sharp, process, beginning next Wednesday. Are you heartened by
0:28:53 > 0:28:56anything you have heard is denied that this might concede bulimic and
0:28:56 > 0:28:59succeed where others have failed question mark no, absolutely not.I
0:28:59 > 0:29:03don't think there has been any real major change. We had a Christmas
0:29:03 > 0:29:06break and in fact New Year and we come back with a negative story and
0:29:06 > 0:29:10things are even more divided. What we have at present is Sinn Fein
0:29:10 > 0:29:17currently doing the rounds of voters. , they are going round their
0:29:17 > 0:29:19constituencies and saying they are taking on board what people are
0:29:19 > 0:29:25saying and that they changing views since Martin McGuinness step down a
0:29:25 > 0:29:29year ago. I can't see them moving from their position, going back on
0:29:29 > 0:29:32these red lines, they say to a prearranged agreements, and whether
0:29:32 > 0:29:37that leave us customer the DUP I don't think at this stage are in a
0:29:37 > 0:29:41position to, either. They have held those shoes for so long and they are
0:29:41 > 0:29:45also partners with weapons that. I think with the MPs, the ones
0:29:45 > 0:29:49currently holding that part, a lot of the people are involved in the
0:29:49 > 0:29:53Good Friday Agreement anyway, opposed to devolution back in the
0:29:53 > 0:29:57Paisley days and I think they see that a situation where they have a
0:29:57 > 0:30:00Tory Prime Minister they would have more aprons over them than they
0:30:00 > 0:30:05would over another.All the parties have at least bought into the
0:30:05 > 0:30:10process. There is a question mark of Sinn Fein getting back into talks,
0:30:10 > 0:30:14suddenly engaging with meaningful talks but they are back in there,
0:30:14 > 0:30:17Michelle O'Neill says she will participate. Do you believe that
0:30:17 > 0:30:22those two main parties actually wants to see devolution restored, or
0:30:22 > 0:30:25do you think they are simply going through the motions?I think they
0:30:25 > 0:30:31both wanted this board but on their terms. -- restored on their terms.
0:30:31 > 0:30:35It pretty much goes on with the DUP when it collapsed, and Sinn Fein
0:30:35 > 0:30:41want radical change. Reject gay marriage for example. A very long
0:30:41 > 0:30:49list of things. We can do this if voters are prepared compromising.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51The fundamental issue here is that there is no sense from the
0:30:51 > 0:30:54supporters of the DUP or Sinn Fein that they want this change and at
0:30:54 > 0:30:58some point if there is a period of direct rule, it is unpopular, a
0:30:58 > 0:31:01crisis going on for protracted period in the health service perhaps
0:31:01 > 0:31:04that might build but it doesn't seem anywhere near this point.Three
0:31:04 > 0:31:11smaller parties, are facing the spectators?I think it is
0:31:11 > 0:31:15unfortunate but regardless of what they say and they do have a mandate
0:31:15 > 0:31:19at this time, this is a talks process between the British
0:31:19 > 0:31:22Government and DUP and Sinn Fein. They are on the periphery and won't
0:31:22 > 0:31:25have too much influence I don't think. The Secretary of State seem
0:31:25 > 0:31:32to have a different personality from the previous secretary of state and
0:31:32 > 0:31:35keen on getting the talks going but that doesn't mean there will be any
0:31:35 > 0:31:39difference as to what Sam said, every has changed their position.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43The lines are still there and Straughan and the voter base, they
0:31:43 > 0:31:47say that is what they want, and they have helped this stage for too long.
0:31:47 > 0:31:52They are saying no compromise now. Both the DUP and Sinn Fein are
0:31:52 > 0:31:57unlikely to be truthful with their supporters.I don't think this is
0:31:57 > 0:32:01dishonest, but it is what people are genuinely telling us. If you take it
0:32:01 > 0:32:05at face value, it is about simply in in past agreements. The big question
0:32:05 > 0:32:09is what is there to talk about? What is there to negotiate? That is one
0:32:09 > 0:32:18of the fundamental difficulties.
0:32:18 > 0:32:23Karen Bradley seemed to be very positive today about the prospects
0:32:23 > 0:32:26for success, she believes she is an honest broker and it can be achieved
0:32:26 > 0:32:30with that incite any evidence for why suddenly the two main parties
0:32:30 > 0:32:34will do a deal?And I think when it was put to what has changed, causing
0:32:34 > 0:32:38the parties to come back in, it was Simon Coveney who jumped in and
0:32:38 > 0:32:43could see it when she couldn't, she is different. And I think if she is
0:32:43 > 0:32:47a different person, that will be how we will see fundamentally what will
0:32:47 > 0:32:52change it.And she dropped the ball. You asked a question and she got the
0:32:52 > 0:32:56answer wrong.Yes, and I have sympathy for anyone fresh off a
0:32:56 > 0:33:00plane in Northern Ireland, doesn't know the situation, but if she is
0:33:00 > 0:33:05not on top of her brief, and can she actually be on top of it in such a
0:33:05 > 0:33:09short time, no matter how good she is an hard she works? Is she simply
0:33:09 > 0:33:14at the mercy of her officials and advisers etc?And the citizens
0:33:14 > 0:33:18Assembly?On the face of it you can see it has worked very well,
0:33:18 > 0:33:23policies on the referendum, same-sex marriage, and there will be the
0:33:23 > 0:33:26abortion referendum later on this year. But this place is completely
0:33:26 > 0:33:30different. Firstly we are much smaller and also there is too much
0:33:30 > 0:33:33division here, so when they come to randomly select these mentioning
0:33:33 > 0:33:37people, you know what will happen? The whole 19 A will be dissected as
0:33:37 > 0:33:40to what section of the community they come from, whether Loyalist or
0:33:40 > 0:33:48Republican. -- the whole 99 will be dissected.Central to it is to
0:33:48 > 0:33:52select these people. If we are giving these people lots of power we
0:33:52 > 0:33:54need to be clear on that.OK, thank you very much indeed.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56That's it from The View for this week.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC1 -
0:33:59 > 0:34:02but before you all head off to the land of nod, spare a thought
0:34:02 > 0:34:04for the Tory MP, Sir Desmond Swayne.
0:34:04 > 0:34:07Not even Ken Clarke could keep him awake on the green benches -
0:34:07 > 0:34:10mind you, it was the 11th day of debate on the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:34:10 > 0:34:15Goodnight, and sweet dreams.
0:34:15 > 0:34:18I was a supporter of the Treaty of Lisbon and I voted against my own
0:34:18 > 0:34:23party with the then government quite frequently throughout those
0:34:23 > 0:34:26proceedings, and I thought the treaty was highly desirable. I'm
0:34:26 > 0:34:30glad to see when we came to power we showed not the slightest sign of
0:34:30 > 0:34:34wishing to undo any of it, but the Charter of fundamental rights is the
0:34:34 > 0:34:42bit I was least keen on.Sir Desmond Swain!
0:34:42 > 0:34:53LAUGHTER Order, order, the Right Honourable
0:34:53 > 0:34:58gentleman is extremely alert! And I'm alert to what he is going to
0:34:58 > 0:35:01say. So Desmond!