0:00:07 > 0:00:09In the ongoing political vacuum, victims of the Troubles continue
0:00:09 > 0:00:10with their struggle for truth.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13Tonight on The View, we hear from two men who drew up
0:00:13 > 0:00:16a legacy blueprint which - almost a decade later -
0:00:16 > 0:00:24is still gathering dust.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43In 2009, the Eames-Bradley report was meant to resolve
0:00:43 > 0:00:47many of the issues around legacy, but now in 2018 what do Lord Eames
0:00:47 > 0:00:50and Denis Bradley make of our changed political landscape?
0:00:50 > 0:00:54I'll be asking them if the prospect of Brexit has altered relationships
0:00:54 > 0:00:59here and if the ongoing problem of the past is now having an impact
0:00:59 > 0:01:01on our view of the future?
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Also tonight - she's been described as the most powerful woman
0:01:04 > 0:01:11in Westminster and now she's on her way to Stormont.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15There is something fundamentally wrong which is happening in Northern
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Ireland and I have no doubt she has been brought over to help sort out
0:01:18 > 0:01:25problems.I do not believe she has been parachuted in, I do not see how
0:01:25 > 0:01:26that could have happened.
0:01:26 > 0:01:27that could have happened.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Plus MPs vote "leave", but this time it's to get out
0:01:30 > 0:01:32of the Palace of Westminster while billions of pounds
0:01:32 > 0:01:33of renovations take place.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35I'll be asking the MP Ian Paisley why he thinks it's good
0:01:35 > 0:01:37value for taxpayers.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39And staying put in Commentators' Corner - we'll have the thoughts
0:01:39 > 0:01:46of Professor Deirdre Heenan and Newton Emerson.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48It's nine years since the Eames Bradley report was published -
0:01:48 > 0:01:52and we're still, it would appear, no closer to finding a solution
0:01:52 > 0:01:55to the legacy of the Troubles.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Tonight I'm joined by Lord Eames and Denis Bradley in
0:01:58 > 0:02:00what is their first major joint interview since unveiling
0:02:00 > 0:02:02the controversial recommendations of their report into dealing
0:02:02 > 0:02:03with the past.
0:02:03 > 0:02:09Welcome to you both.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12We'll come to the issue of legacy shortly but first to Brexit -
0:02:12 > 0:02:15a debate that both men have also become involved in.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17You have both engaged publicly in the debate over Brexit recently.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Lord Eames - you've expressed your reservations about a potential
0:02:20 > 0:02:22'knowledge deficit' in certain quarters regarding what Brexit
0:02:22 > 0:02:25could actually mean for how people live and work here.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28How concerned are you at the lack of awareness you've come
0:02:28 > 0:02:36across at Westminster?
0:02:37 > 0:02:42There is a confused attitude to what is happening in the devolved
0:02:42 > 0:02:49nations, Wales, Scotland and ourselves. When the negotiations are
0:02:49 > 0:02:54going on, Wales and Scotland have elected representatives speaking for
0:02:54 > 0:03:01them, searching out for solutions to those particular areas. For Northern
0:03:01 > 0:03:05Ireland, we have got dedicated civil servants listening and speaking for
0:03:05 > 0:03:10us but the impression that Westminster is very much, where is
0:03:10 > 0:03:18Northern Ireland? Why are we not at the table and pulling our wheat?
0:03:18 > 0:03:25Particularly over the question over devolved rights and duties after
0:03:25 > 0:03:30Brexit, how will they affect Northern Ireland? We think of
0:03:30 > 0:03:34farmers, fishermen is, education and hospitals. The confused attitude to
0:03:34 > 0:03:40this in Westminster is very marked because last night we too could the
0:03:40 > 0:03:45act which will allow us to look after our situation in the whole of
0:03:45 > 0:03:49the United Kingdom when Brexit comes, it has reached its next
0:03:49 > 0:03:54stage, it has gone to committee stage. Time and time again we were
0:03:54 > 0:03:59asked, what is the position of Northern Ireland? Houses the
0:03:59 > 0:04:02devolved administration in Northern Ireland going to be cheated
0:04:02 > 0:04:09alongside Wales and Scotland?We have MPs and peers in the House of
0:04:09 > 0:04:17Lords and Commons but are you saying we do not have a functioning
0:04:17 > 0:04:21Executive which is causing a problem over the problem of Brexit?
0:04:21 > 0:04:29Undoubtedly. When Milik at the role of central government, the role of
0:04:29 > 0:04:31devolved administrations, how will they have the relationship what
0:04:31 > 0:04:37happens at Westminster and especially ten Downing St, how will
0:04:37 > 0:04:43we relate that to the particular needs of Northern Ireland? Even
0:04:43 > 0:04:46today, the EU were saying to the Northern Ireland select committee,
0:04:46 > 0:04:52nothing has been agreed about the border. After all we have talked
0:04:52 > 0:04:59about, it is a devastating remark. Do you agree that is the democratic
0:04:59 > 0:05:04deficit at the moment on this critical issue?That is always a
0:05:04 > 0:05:08democratic deficit when people are not talking to each other and Brexit
0:05:08 > 0:05:16is huge. Sir Keir Starmer was here during the week and he had a look
0:05:16 > 0:05:25around. We taken the place which overlooks and Donegal, it has been
0:05:25 > 0:05:32there for 1400 years. You can't see the border but at this moment in
0:05:32 > 0:05:36time, this whole constitutional issue is back on the table in a way
0:05:36 > 0:05:42I do not think any of us foresaw. Certainly the party season Northern
0:05:42 > 0:05:45Ireland did not foresee it. It is a state of limbo where they do not
0:05:45 > 0:05:53talk to each other about these issues. They talk about smaller
0:05:53 > 0:05:57issues, about definite rights and so on for specific groups of people but
0:05:57 > 0:06:04at the same time, that is major debate going on. We are caught in
0:06:04 > 0:06:10this weird situation whereby I have never seen nationalist and more
0:06:10 > 0:06:16contented and settled and confident, certainly in my lifetime. Northern
0:06:16 > 0:06:21nationalism, and yet, in the form of Sinn Fein, it does not seem to be
0:06:21 > 0:06:26able to get past the organs which take responsibility for problems
0:06:26 > 0:06:32here in northern Ireland. I have never seen Unionism more fearful,
0:06:32 > 0:06:36more tetchy in the sense of somebody like me on an Irish prime ministers
0:06:36 > 0:06:42cannot say they are Irish and they want a united Ireland. It is time we
0:06:42 > 0:06:47got past that childishness and re-engage in proper debate. We need
0:06:47 > 0:06:54to get into rooms together and be capable of engaging in mature and
0:06:54 > 0:06:58creative conversations. We will not solve everything overnight, this
0:06:58 > 0:07:02debate will go on for years and no one knows where it will end apart
0:07:02 > 0:07:08from the fact that what will be different will be different from
0:07:08 > 0:07:15what we have at the moment. What is certainly true, Lord Eames is
0:07:15 > 0:07:21correct when he says that we need to get this act together. I should stop
0:07:21 > 0:07:25calling him Lord Eames. We need to get the institutions up and running
0:07:25 > 0:07:31for the sake of all of our people. We have succeeded in getting rid of
0:07:31 > 0:07:35violence but not in staying with each other in the same room to talk
0:07:35 > 0:07:42to each other.We just heard from Denis Bradley his view of the impact
0:07:42 > 0:07:45of Brexit on the nationalist committee and -- community and on
0:07:45 > 0:07:51the unionist community, are you concerned there is a real danger at
0:07:51 > 0:07:56the age old argument of orange and green will fall out all over again
0:07:56 > 0:08:04over the new issue of Brexit?There have been many assurances we have
0:08:04 > 0:08:09been given that the Northern Ireland situation has been taken seriously
0:08:09 > 0:08:14but negotiations are based on compromise. Discussions can lead to
0:08:14 > 0:08:19conclusions that were never imagined when it began. My worry is that once
0:08:19 > 0:08:24we get to the next stage of the Brexit negotiations, some of the
0:08:24 > 0:08:29assurances that we have been given about looking after Northern Ireland
0:08:29 > 0:08:34and its needs can be lost sight of if the bigger plan has to move
0:08:34 > 0:08:38forward. The impression I have at the moment in Westminster is that
0:08:38 > 0:08:44you have to wait until you see what the final plan is but it is now that
0:08:44 > 0:08:50we need to produce the arguments and now that we need to make the points
0:08:50 > 0:08:56as the devolved administration and that is why I am trying to emphasise
0:08:56 > 0:09:00to Westminster that the ordinary people of Northern Ireland are
0:09:00 > 0:09:05absolutely tired of what is not happening. They are wondering who
0:09:05 > 0:09:10will be responsible, who is going to listen to what is happening and who
0:09:10 > 0:09:15will make the special issues of Northern Ireland accepted at the
0:09:15 > 0:09:21highest level of the Brexit talks. He had said that the Prime Minister
0:09:21 > 0:09:26needs to re-engage with Northern Ireland and quickly?Symbolism is
0:09:26 > 0:09:31very important. It has always been important in Northern Ireland. The
0:09:31 > 0:09:35symbolism of the Prime Minister being seen to take a particular
0:09:35 > 0:09:40interest in breaking the deadlock at Stormont cannot be missed. That is
0:09:40 > 0:09:46why I use that as an example on the float of the house, that is where
0:09:46 > 0:09:52people here would feel they have been listened to.That's their needs
0:09:52 > 0:09:57are being met. So she needs to come over here and directly take part in
0:09:57 > 0:10:03that talks process?There are other ways of showing that importance but
0:10:03 > 0:10:07it is important that people see that the very top of the British
0:10:07 > 0:10:10government is taking this seriously what is happening in Northern
0:10:10 > 0:10:16Ireland.Do you agree?I do but I also think the Taoiseach should be
0:10:16 > 0:10:21with her in the room. The only thing which works in Northern Ireland is
0:10:21 > 0:10:26when the two governments lead. I think it is shocking that we have
0:10:26 > 0:10:31been handling these talks, they do not want to declare themselves as
0:10:31 > 0:10:36joint cheers of these talks. They may produce a paper and get all
0:10:36 > 0:10:41parties in the same room. But they should have been producing a paper
0:10:41 > 0:10:46on the first day because they have had a year of talks and they know
0:10:46 > 0:10:54exactly the issues. They should have all the parties in the same room and
0:10:54 > 0:10:58thirdly, we have a democratic right, to know what is going on. It is
0:10:58 > 0:11:05grand to see we need some of these negotiations should be in secret,
0:11:05 > 0:11:11some should be in secret but after one year or two, it is time we knew
0:11:11 > 0:11:15exactly what the situation was and the two governments should be
0:11:15 > 0:11:21telling us. Stop pussyfooting to all of our parties. When the two
0:11:21 > 0:11:25governments act with authority and determination that is when you get a
0:11:25 > 0:11:30Good Friday Agreement and get the end of conflict and you begin the
0:11:30 > 0:11:37possibility of breakthroughs in relationships.Politics is also
0:11:37 > 0:11:42being played out against the backdrop of legacy issues. We had
0:11:42 > 0:11:47the divisive Kingsmills a few weeks ago and upset this week to the
0:11:47 > 0:11:52families of victims with a reduced sentence handed down to Gary
0:11:52 > 0:11:57Haggerty, where it is legacy issue is bigger in the wider debate, nine
0:11:57 > 0:12:05years and after your joint report? They are indeed making us depressed
0:12:05 > 0:12:09and depressed people with one thing on the agenda, our news headlines
0:12:09 > 0:12:17are full the past. We warned about this, this could become the dominant
0:12:17 > 0:12:24feature which will destroy a lot of things in Northern Ireland. It could
0:12:24 > 0:12:27destroy politics, social life, reconciliation. We needed to get
0:12:27 > 0:12:32past and beyond that. Reading the sign of the times at the moment, it
0:12:32 > 0:12:37is becoming a bit clear, well this is my reading of the situation, that
0:12:37 > 0:12:43the British government are thinking of introducing a statute of
0:12:43 > 0:12:49limitations. That has some great difficulties with it but it was in a
0:12:49 > 0:12:53report to a degree. We said the work she be done in five years and then
0:12:53 > 0:12:59it should stop. That is when the amnesty should come into being. The
0:12:59 > 0:13:02British government are thinking of doing something similar at the
0:13:02 > 0:13:07moment. I think they will not be able to do it just the veteran
0:13:07 > 0:13:10soldiers, they will have to do for everybody to make it constitutional
0:13:10 > 0:13:15and make it get the courts. If that happens, and other things will
0:13:15 > 0:13:24happen. Internationally it will be seen as probably against breaking
0:13:24 > 0:13:26international rules but I think the British government will probably
0:13:26 > 0:13:32face that down. The political parties here will jump up and down
0:13:32 > 0:13:37but behind-the-scenes they will be released. I think that will go,
0:13:37 > 0:13:43especially for Sinn Fein and DUP. The victims here will feel betrayed
0:13:43 > 0:13:47but the victims also need to face something perhaps, that if they are
0:13:47 > 0:13:51not going to get justice and truth which I think is becoming less
0:13:51 > 0:14:01likely as the years go by. As it dominates and darkens our lives then
0:14:01 > 0:14:05I think the victims need to also see there are a lot of other ways of
0:14:05 > 0:14:10dealing with the past and they may have to settle for dealing with
0:14:10 > 0:14:15things like pension and welfare in good health facilities, all those
0:14:15 > 0:14:21other things which are also within our report. That there has to become
0:14:21 > 0:14:28part of our discussion.Thank you. If you're saying the UK Government
0:14:28 > 0:14:32will create an amnesty. Would you welcome that. Would you agree that
0:14:32 > 0:14:38is now necessary to break the logjam?No, I didn't welcome it nine
0:14:38 > 0:14:46years ago and I wouldn't welcome it now. But it is better to tell the
0:14:46 > 0:14:52truth about it. It is important to be truthful with people who have
0:14:52 > 0:15:00lost loved ones. If it is we are not going to get to the mechanisms of
0:15:00 > 0:15:04justice and truth, let's be truthful about that and not doubly hurt
0:15:04 > 0:15:08victims and then get on with the rest of it and do the things that
0:15:08 > 0:15:13are doable and helpful and creative to people. Many people live without
0:15:13 > 0:15:17pensions and many people live in trauma and all those things. It is
0:15:17 > 0:15:22better to be truthful if that is the road we are going down and be
0:15:22 > 0:15:28truthful now.Do you agree with that analysis?Hold on, the point I would
0:15:28 > 0:15:33put in addition to what Denis has said, which I largely agree with, is
0:15:33 > 0:15:38people cannot come to terms with the fact that a new generation that's
0:15:38 > 0:15:42going to inherit the mistakes that were made in our generation is a
0:15:42 > 0:15:47generation that's reading about these things in history books. They
0:15:47 > 0:15:52didn't come through the Troubles or the tra ma. That generation is
0:15:52 > 0:15:57inheriting what we are not doing. That is why I think it is important
0:15:57 > 0:16:02that we talk about the truth and say what is a victim looking for. I have
0:16:02 > 0:16:06been concerned for years with many of these victims and time and time
0:16:06 > 0:16:12again I have to remind people, it is to do with ordinary people. It is
0:16:12 > 0:16:16not just about politics. It is not just Westminster or Stormont. It is
0:16:16 > 0:16:19about people suffering in their lives, because of what they have
0:16:19 > 0:16:23come through. When you go to the generation that is eventually going
0:16:23 > 0:16:28to take over from us, that is a generation that only read of these
0:16:28 > 0:16:35things in the history books. That is post-Brexit.You also just to
0:16:35 > 0:16:42complicate this further, have had, I think its fair to say, a slight
0:16:42 > 0:16:50change of heart on the definition of victim and you're not entirely happy
0:16:50 > 0:16:55the the statutory definition.It is not that I'm uncomfortable with the
0:16:55 > 0:16:58moral question, but the fact I don't believe it is telling the whole
0:16:58 > 0:17:04story. A generation were victims of Troubles. There were particular
0:17:04 > 0:17:08cases and those were devastating cases, but we have got to take the
0:17:08 > 0:17:12longer view as we move on towards Brexit. I'm sorry but the two things
0:17:12 > 0:17:22are linked. We can't put them into little boxes of their own. The
0:17:22 > 0:17:26Brexit generation is bringing to the surface not just about devolution
0:17:26 > 0:17:31but how we have come to this point of major decisions for the whole of
0:17:31 > 0:17:35the United Kingdom and that generation I'm referring to in our
0:17:35 > 0:17:38schools, growing up, they're the ones who are going to interpret what
0:17:38 > 0:17:45we are talking about tonight.Denis? Well, I mean... My fear is that we
0:17:45 > 0:17:50are going to continue this battle. We said that if you dealt with
0:17:50 > 0:17:57the... If you dealt with our past within the criminal justice system,
0:17:57 > 0:18:01it would wreck us financially and emotionally. To some degree I think
0:18:01 > 0:18:08that has happened. The amount of money that has been spent in the
0:18:08 > 0:18:12criminal justice system is shameful and it hasn't delivered great
0:18:12 > 0:18:17results. The second thing is that it results in an emotional blackness,
0:18:17 > 0:18:21because it's... The criminal justice system doesn't feel with themes,
0:18:21 > 0:18:27doesn't deal with looking and analysing. It is about guilt and
0:18:27 > 0:18:32innocence. And that is if way we are dealing with it. That is the way we
0:18:32 > 0:18:35appear to be condemned to deal with it. Because our politicians couldn't
0:18:35 > 0:18:40get our act together and the two governments never got their act
0:18:40 > 0:18:46together. I wouldn't fully blame your local politicians.How do we go
0:18:46 > 0:18:50forward? The victims are not getting any younger or getting any answers.
0:18:50 > 0:18:56How do you help them?The reason I talk about the signs of the times is
0:18:56 > 0:19:00that the British Government are still talking about national
0:19:00 > 0:19:05security or are now. When myself and Robin did a formal interview with
0:19:05 > 0:19:09the British government nine years ago there was never any mention of
0:19:09 > 0:19:14that. They talked of article 2 and 8, but that has come on to the
0:19:14 > 0:19:18agenda. The second thing is the statute of limitation in that narrow
0:19:18 > 0:19:26sense for British soldiers. That can't happen unless theres is a
0:19:26 > 0:19:30statute of limitation for everybody. So the possibility of justice is
0:19:30 > 0:19:37ruled out F that be the case, it is better to say that rather than not
0:19:37 > 0:19:42telling the truth. They will probably have a consultation and
0:19:42 > 0:19:45send that out to the public after the number of reports that have been
0:19:45 > 0:19:49done and the amount of study and consultation that has been taken
0:19:49 > 0:19:54place. Then they will decide it is complicated. For God's sake they
0:19:54 > 0:19:59were told that ten times within the last ten years. And then probably
0:19:59 > 0:20:05what they're going do is introduce some kind of narrow statute of
0:20:05 > 0:20:12limitation. If that be the truth, let's face it and the victims and
0:20:12 > 0:20:19particularly for the dignity and welfare of victims, let's do the
0:20:19 > 0:20:26other stuff we recommended - story telling, welfare, pension, all the
0:20:26 > 0:20:32aspects of the past are not contained there and there are issues
0:20:32 > 0:20:39that be paid for and implemented. You can sense the frustration. Do
0:20:39 > 0:20:43you share it.The problem with his frustration, whip I share is that in
0:20:43 > 0:20:50fact when our report came out, nine, ten years ago, we now know that
0:20:50 > 0:20:53society wasn't ready to think of those issues.Do you think it might
0:20:53 > 0:20:58be now? I think that the climate has changed. And I to. It is not just
0:20:58 > 0:21:04that we wrote the report. But time and time again over the last ten
0:21:04 > 0:21:12years, people are referred to some soft principle -- of the principles
0:21:12 > 0:21:16we put forward. But they couldn't accept it then. It haze changed. Do
0:21:16 > 0:21:23you think it should be reexam minuted if Karen Bradley is
0:21:23 > 0:21:28watching, or other advisors, what are you saying to them.It is not a
0:21:28 > 0:21:33question of flattery that we wrote the record. But we took a wide
0:21:33 > 0:21:38consultation before we made the proposals. The fact it got the
0:21:38 > 0:21:42reception it did was because society hadn't got to the points where they
0:21:42 > 0:21:46wanted to face up to those issues. But now, when people talk to me
0:21:46 > 0:21:50about what we said then, the attitude has changed and says
0:21:50 > 0:21:56perhaps we should look at it again. Denis, just a final sentence to you.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00What is your message to Karen Bradley and others who could change
0:22:00 > 0:22:07the course of this debate if they're watching?Be honest. Be a little bit
0:22:07 > 0:22:12courageous, work with the Irish Government. Encourage them to be
0:22:12 > 0:22:19honest and courageous. Tackle us all in a fashion which has some dignity
0:22:19 > 0:22:24and maturity, challenge us, make us grow up. And get us out of the
0:22:24 > 0:22:28depressive state and the negativity we have allowed ourselves to become
0:22:28 > 0:22:34and make sure that you drive our local politicians back into power.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38And remember how far we have come and the fact that we are living
0:22:38 > 0:22:44still with those memories. Don't let us sink back.Thank you. It has been
0:22:44 > 0:22:48fascinating to hear your thoughts nine years on from the publication
0:22:48 > 0:22:54of that report and what will be the public reaction of what you have
0:22:54 > 0:22:57said tonight.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59Now, she's been dubbed the woman who really runs Britain.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02Sue Gray is a civil servant with enormous influence right
0:23:02 > 0:23:05at the heart of Westminster - so how come she wants to run
0:23:05 > 0:23:06a department at Stormont?
0:23:06 > 0:23:08Her appointment as Permanent Secretary at the Department
0:23:08 > 0:23:11of Finance here has led to a tsunami of theories, including one that it's
0:23:11 > 0:23:14a sign the Government is getting ready for direct rule again.
0:23:14 > 0:23:15But could the reality be much more mundane?
0:23:15 > 0:23:19Gareth Gordon's been investigating.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24This is Sue Gray. She has been described as the most powerful woman
0:23:24 > 0:23:31in Britain. As deputy God. And as the most powerful civil servant you
0:23:31 > 0:23:40have never heard of. Although that's changing. Unlikely as it may seem,
0:23:40 > 0:23:48Sue Gray used to run a pub outside Newry. Today it is a creche. But
0:23:48 > 0:23:56once it was a pub and locals remember her. Adrian was one of the
0:23:56 > 0:24:04regulars.A good laid y. Top class land lady, run a good show.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07Basically a good mixed crowd. Both sides of the community drank in the
0:24:07 > 0:24:15pub. Good way with her. Very good way with her. The time we knew her,
0:24:15 > 0:24:22we knew she worked in the, well a Government or civil service job and
0:24:22 > 0:24:27then could be somebody who worked in the dole office. I only heard
0:24:27 > 0:24:34recently what she has come back to lead the department of finance.As
0:24:34 > 0:24:41Permanent Secretary of the department to be precise. .I'm head
0:24:41 > 0:24:47of...Here she is giving evidence to a Westminster committee. Head of
0:24:47 > 0:24:51propriety and ethics in the Cabinet Office is a very seen your position.
0:24:51 > 0:24:58She led the investigation which led to the resignation of Damian Green.
0:24:58 > 0:25:02Why would she leave this post for what many see as a back water in
0:25:02 > 0:25:12Northern Ireland? Well, her husband does come from County Down.# You
0:25:12 > 0:25:17got my number!
0:25:19 > 0:25:21got my number!Bill Connellan is a country singer. Could the couple
0:25:21 > 0:25:26want to return to his roots? This politician doubts it that is simple.
0:25:26 > 0:25:30No, I think and I think many other people would think she has come
0:25:30 > 0:25:33across to sort out the Northern Ireland civil service. Let's talk
0:25:33 > 0:25:39about the reality. We have a political Crisis and a crisis in the
0:25:39 > 0:25:43Government machine and each day when we hear more information from the
0:25:43 > 0:25:46RHI inquiry and what is going on with our energy market, what has
0:25:46 > 0:25:54been going on with everything from ratings to everything else, there is
0:25:54 > 0:25:57something fundamentally wrong and I have no doubt she has been brought
0:25:57 > 0:26:02to help sort out the problems.But this civil servants is not buying
0:26:02 > 0:26:08it.It far-fetched. There are stories she has been parachuted in.
0:26:08 > 0:26:14I don't see how they could actually have happened. There is not the
0:26:14 > 0:26:20legal power or the means of doing it. I think she is coming to do... A
0:26:20 > 0:26:26very interesting and challenging and worthwhile job.A journalist who has
0:26:26 > 0:26:32followed her career has another theory.I think the likely reason is
0:26:32 > 0:26:38nothing to do with the state of Northern Ireland politics, but she
0:26:38 > 0:26:43has an odd CV and has become seen your without having experience of
0:26:43 > 0:26:48running large teams. So it is difficult to go from her current
0:26:48 > 0:26:54very senior job to the next layer and become the Permanent Secretary
0:26:54 > 0:27:01of the department, because her CV is thread-bare. Going to a smaller
0:27:01 > 0:27:06department, that is a way to get to the next rank despite the problems
0:27:06 > 0:27:11in her CV that would stop her taking over the department of work and
0:27:11 > 0:27:20pensions.A spokesperson said:
0:27:24 > 0:27:31As for the notion that her appointment is a a forerun, Steve
0:27:31 > 0:27:34Aitken doesn't believe thatI thought they were getting ready for
0:27:34 > 0:27:38direct rule. But I don't think that. I think they realise there is
0:27:38 > 0:27:42something wrong that needs to be get sorted ow. Regardless of whether we
0:27:42 > 0:27:46get Government back up and running, she is there to sort out the
0:27:46 > 0:27:54problems.Who ever is right. It is a long way from running the Cove Bar.
0:27:54 > 0:28:01We thought she was the most powerful woman when she run the pub too,
0:28:01 > 0:28:07because she was the land lady
0:28:13 > 0:28:20scomplamMPs are to move out of Palace of Westminster. It is for
0:28:20 > 0:28:27improvements. There are problems with asbestos and collapsing roofs.
0:28:27 > 0:28:36MPs voted for a decant. But there was some emotion.This building is
0:28:36 > 0:28:39not just stone and marble and stained glass, it is not a
0:28:39 > 0:28:43structure. This is a home, a statement, this is a place of
0:28:43 > 0:28:49democracy. This stands for something in this nation and beyond. Far more
0:28:49 > 0:28:54than mere bricks and mortar. This is the place where democracy lives and
0:28:54 > 0:28:58if this, it is so easy to say we could move elsewhere and it would
0:28:58 > 0:29:08still be a Parliament. But it wouldn't be the building that has
0:29:08 > 0:29:13survived bombing fire and yet we have come through. I think it is
0:29:13 > 0:29:19crucial that that foot print be retained.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22Stephen Pound at his oratorical best there in the Commons.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24The DUP MP, Ian Paisley, is with me now and,
0:29:24 > 0:29:26unlike Stephen Pound, he's keen to leave
0:29:26 > 0:29:28the Palace of Westminster.
0:29:28 > 0:29:37You voted to leave again.It is a very serious matter. I don't think
0:29:37 > 0:29:42Stephen said anything I disagree with or I said anything he disagreed
0:29:42 > 0:29:47with. We love that building, we love the history and cherish what has
0:29:47 > 0:29:53happened there because it is so significant but if we make sure
0:29:53 > 0:29:58we're good custodians for future generations, we have to do something
0:29:58 > 0:30:03now because 70 years ago people failed to do something for the
0:30:03 > 0:30:10building so we must make sure it is properly refurbished. A special
0:30:10 > 0:30:17committee should be setup to look this issue. They just want us out of
0:30:17 > 0:30:23this building and I want to stay. The evidence is so overwhelming that
0:30:23 > 0:30:26the building needs to be refurbished. There are options and
0:30:26 > 0:30:33each one is more expensive. Would it have people working round is the
0:30:33 > 0:30:36next 40 years which would cost billions more than the proposal to
0:30:36 > 0:30:43move out for a short period of time. This is the cheaper option and best
0:30:43 > 0:30:50for the taxpayer?It is the best value option. We looked at all the
0:30:50 > 0:30:54options, it is not feasible. When people are having their whole
0:30:54 > 0:30:59kitchen pulled out in the Roman homes, the last place they want to
0:30:59 > 0:31:04be is trying to live and work in that environment. How much more up
0:31:04 > 0:31:08with the building of that significance were about as asbestos
0:31:08 > 0:31:17and fire hazards. Three people have to walk grind up building 24 hours
0:31:17 > 0:31:23every day, every week. -- walk around. Not to look for a fire spot
0:31:23 > 0:31:29to put them out.Some Tories think there is a subplot, to get you out
0:31:29 > 0:31:35of the building and never get back in again and turn into a museum,
0:31:35 > 0:31:45what if is true?We decide when we go out. We decided through a special
0:31:45 > 0:31:52purpose committee and we decide when to go back in. Further into
0:31:52 > 0:31:59Whitehall that is plenty of space. There is a building in East Belfast
0:31:59 > 0:32:08doing nothing.There is.Maybe you should go to purse or Stormont.The
0:32:08 > 0:32:13seat of power has to be in the capital city of our nation, that is
0:32:13 > 0:32:20London and that is whether it should be.Stephen Pound referred to the
0:32:20 > 0:32:24young thrusters who want to get this under way as soon as possible, do
0:32:24 > 0:32:30you see that as yourself?As a 51-year-old, I'd take that as a
0:32:30 > 0:32:36compliment.But daily Telegraph today was talking about the idea
0:32:36 > 0:32:44that you begin the campaign and you will never get back again. It might
0:32:44 > 0:32:47be your son who finally makes the decision and maybe he will be
0:32:47 > 0:32:58persuaded to go somewhere else. You think that is a false argument?Yes.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01We are the politicians elected by the people and we will be in charge
0:33:01 > 0:33:06when you go back into that building. It is essential the work is done
0:33:06 > 0:33:11correctly, it is the most iconic building on these islands and for us
0:33:11 > 0:33:18to allow it to go to rack and ruin and foolishly putting off this work,
0:33:18 > 0:33:27probably for about four years. Then we get back in.Just to pick up what
0:33:27 > 0:33:33Lord Eames and Denis Bradley talked about, what is needed no is
0:33:33 > 0:33:37truthfulness and openness to deal with the legacy which is a running
0:33:37 > 0:33:40sore, nine years after the publication of their report. Is
0:33:40 > 0:33:45there any merit at that report being dusted off the shelves and looked at
0:33:45 > 0:33:52again?The basis of what Dennis said is that someone is not telling the
0:33:52 > 0:33:58truth. I think people are being honest but truth hearts. It is
0:33:58 > 0:34:05difficult to get a solution. They both need to get back into Stormont
0:34:05 > 0:34:10and run the government of Northern Ireland to deal with these serious
0:34:10 > 0:34:16issues instead of hitting minor issues in the way of progress.
0:34:16 > 0:34:20Compromise on all sides? My party has a track record of doing the
0:34:20 > 0:34:25difficult stuff.We will leave it there, thank you very much for
0:34:25 > 0:34:25joining us.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27Over now to Commentators' Corner where Deirdre Heenan
0:34:27 > 0:34:30and Newton Emerson will no doubt have plenty to say about tonight's
0:34:30 > 0:34:32discussion with Lord Eames and Denis Bradley.
0:34:32 > 0:34:39Welcome to you both. Let us dive in, there was a lot of passion in what
0:34:39 > 0:34:44Denis Bradley was talking about, dealing with an issue which has been
0:34:44 > 0:34:50sitting like a festering sore?A lot of passion and frustration,
0:34:50 > 0:34:55understandably. There seem to be intractable issues regarding the
0:34:55 > 0:35:02past, a solution has eluded it as Ford two decades. What we have at
0:35:02 > 0:35:08the moment is an ad hoc situation, we have the coroners Court and
0:35:08 > 0:35:12private prosecutions which is causing harm, it is eroding
0:35:12 > 0:35:19confidence in our political system. It is causing harm to victims and
0:35:19 > 0:35:23the system of governance. We could bring and academics from across the
0:35:23 > 0:35:29world, with the say anything substantially different from James
0:35:29 > 0:35:36Bradley? It is in the Stormont agreement, get on with it. --
0:35:36 > 0:35:41Eames-Bradley report.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44Eames-Bradley report.Is there an inevitability to some kind of
0:35:44 > 0:35:51amnesty across-the-board?Only if we reach a conclusion before everyone
0:35:51 > 0:35:57involved has died of old age which is how it seems to be at the moment.
0:35:57 > 0:36:03There was something in the Eames-Bradley report is all nine
0:36:03 > 0:36:07years ago... Look back on other talks, they are sitting on this
0:36:07 > 0:36:16fresh start agreement, whenever this issue crops up, the same outline...
0:36:16 > 0:36:21Although it is an extremely complicated structure, the fact he
0:36:21 > 0:36:25coming and people come back to it means maybe it is an effective
0:36:25 > 0:36:34cancer. It is hard to get your head around what you need to back and
0:36:34 > 0:36:40provides a comprehensive solution. -- effective answer. Even though it
0:36:40 > 0:36:46may be painful for some parties?We can work around the small details
0:36:46 > 0:36:51but the principles are -- there and they will not change. Will you get
0:36:51 > 0:36:59truth and justice? All those other ideas about oral history and
0:36:59 > 0:37:01disclosing information are important to people who want to know the
0:37:01 > 0:37:08truth.It is part of a package which post Lord Eames and Denis Bradley
0:37:08 > 0:37:13said, there may be parts that some individuals preferred to others but
0:37:13 > 0:37:19you have to take it as a whole. Different combinations of truth or
0:37:19 > 0:37:24justice depending on what you as the victim want or expect but in the end
0:37:24 > 0:37:30it is all wrapped up under themes by a panel of experts to reach a
0:37:30 > 0:37:35conclusion. It is important the process reaches an end but at the
0:37:35 > 0:37:41moment, we are waiting for time to brush it under the carpet.Lord
0:37:41 > 0:37:45Eames brought the conversation brought -- brought the conversation
0:37:45 > 0:37:52back to Brexit to see you cannot see it without the context of Brexit
0:37:52 > 0:37:56happening, as far as not having devolution in Northern Ireland is
0:37:56 > 0:38:03concerned, do you see where he's coming from?I think he's talking
0:38:03 > 0:38:07about the withdrawal bill, there were huge discussions in the House
0:38:07 > 0:38:12of Lords and no discussions in the Northern Ireland. The Secretary of
0:38:12 > 0:38:18State Kimmel said she could not discuss broadband because it is
0:38:18 > 0:38:23devolved issue. These issues will be taken back to London and no one has
0:38:23 > 0:38:29batted an eyelid. Yet Scotland and Wales have said we do not want those
0:38:29 > 0:38:37powers return to London.Lord Eames thinks it is a big problem?That is
0:38:37 > 0:38:41because we are not talking about it. There is no possibility of dealing
0:38:41 > 0:38:46with this huge issue in the future when we can do with the issues of
0:38:46 > 0:38:52the past.It is very interesting, do you think people will look at it a
0:38:52 > 0:38:59fresh?I think they will have to. How many times do we need to go out
0:38:59 > 0:39:03to consultation, as he said? We have the answers, it is about having the
0:39:03 > 0:39:06will to move it on.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08That's it from The View for this week.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC One.
0:39:10 > 0:39:11And we leave
0:39:11 > 0:39:15you with a reminder of one of the big stories of the week -
0:39:15 > 0:39:18the return of Sir Kenneth Branagh to receive the Freedom of Belfast.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21He may have left here at the tender age of nine but we've unearthed
0:39:21 > 0:39:24a little gem that shows he never lost his ear for Belfast humour.
0:39:24 > 0:39:32Good night!
0:39:33 > 0:39:41MUSIC.
0:39:58 > 0:39:59Holy