0:00:04 > 0:00:06When is an agreement not an agreement?
0:00:06 > 0:00:09On the one hand Sinn Fein claims a deal was done,
0:00:09 > 0:00:11but not so says the DUP.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13So where does the truth lie?
0:00:13 > 0:00:14And does anyone, anywhere, know what happens next?
0:00:14 > 0:00:22Welcome to The View.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Tonight - the talks process that choked on a language law.
0:00:39 > 0:00:43We'll hear from the DUP and Sinn Fein on why they couldn't
0:00:43 > 0:00:45strike a deal and exactly what the stumbling blocks were.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48We'll also speak to the other main party leaders to hear
0:00:48 > 0:00:51whether they think the prospect of a deal any time soon
0:00:51 > 0:00:53is dead in the water.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55And "making an accomodation" in Commentators' Corner
0:00:55 > 0:01:03are Fionnuala O Connor and Alex Kane.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Hello.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10On Monday the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach arrived in Belfast
0:01:10 > 0:01:12hoping to endorse a deal to restore Stormont.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16Yet, a little over 48 hours later, the plug was well and truly pulled
0:01:16 > 0:01:18by the DUP, the devolved government here left languishing
0:01:18 > 0:01:19on life support.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21It's been an eventful week, even by the standards
0:01:21 > 0:01:29of Northern Ireland politics.
0:01:40 > 0:01:46The soundings from both in Gloucester and Mr McDonald were
0:01:46 > 0:01:49positive and I am hoping they can make an accommodation in the days
0:01:49 > 0:01:55ahead.Good evening. Today I have been meeting with the leaders of the
0:01:55 > 0:02:00main parties involved in the talks and I have urged them to make one
0:02:00 > 0:02:07final push for the sake of the people of Northern Ireland.There is
0:02:07 > 0:02:11not a deal yet. What there is is very good progress and we will keep
0:02:11 > 0:02:16at it and continue to work on that progress and that is why we are here
0:02:16 > 0:02:24today.We are not exactly they're just yet, but there is nothing
0:02:24 > 0:02:27insurmountable if there is the political will, if there is the
0:02:27 > 0:02:32political will.
0:02:32 > 0:02:39There will not be a freestanding Irish language act. There will not
0:02:39 > 0:02:43be compulsory Irish in schools, there will not be quoted in the
0:02:43 > 0:02:50civil service and there will not be bilingual directional signs.Now is
0:02:50 > 0:02:52the time for decisiveness and leadership and we cannot be
0:02:52 > 0:02:58distracted. In other words, the DUP have to make up their mind.It is
0:02:58 > 0:03:02unfortunate where we have ended up in the position where we are, we are
0:03:02 > 0:03:09not able to have an Executive at this time.I am sure we had a way
0:03:09 > 0:03:13forward on all the issues and we had an accommodation.Michelle O'Neill
0:03:13 > 0:03:17making her party's position clear, a deal was on the table.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20And this afternoon the first details of that draft agreement began
0:03:20 > 0:03:24to emerge at a Sinn Fein press conference at Stormont.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28We had a draft agreement by the end of last week. At that time we
0:03:28 > 0:03:33advised the leadership that the deal should be closed before those
0:03:33 > 0:03:37opposed to it could unpick everything we had achieved. We made
0:03:37 > 0:03:41it clear that if there was a delay, that there was every chance that the
0:03:41 > 0:03:47package would unravel. And so it came to pass. The DUP failed to
0:03:47 > 0:03:54close the deal and then went on to collapse the talks process. A lot of
0:03:54 > 0:03:56mistruths and inaccuracies have been peddled about the content of the
0:03:56 > 0:04:02draft agreement. So, for the record, the draft agreement included an
0:04:02 > 0:04:09Irish language act, and altered Scots actor, and respecting language
0:04:09 > 0:04:14and diversity act. The Irish language act included provision for
0:04:14 > 0:04:19the official recognition of Irish and the creation of an Irish
0:04:19 > 0:04:24language commissioner. The repeal of the ban of Irish in the course was
0:04:24 > 0:04:30also to be legislated for. Let me make it clear, at no stage was it
0:04:30 > 0:04:37envisaged to make Irish compulsory for anybody or to apply quotas to
0:04:37 > 0:04:42the public services. These were not considerations. There was no meeting
0:04:42 > 0:04:47of minds on marriage equality. We did, however, anticipate that the
0:04:47 > 0:04:51issue would be fully considered by an incoming Assembly in the form of
0:04:51 > 0:04:57a private member's bill and it was acknowledged that no party alone
0:04:57 > 0:05:01could table a petition of concern. There was agreement to review the
0:05:01 > 0:05:07petition of concern and to establish a committee to look at the bill of
0:05:07 > 0:05:12rights. Separate from the agreement between the DUP, Sinn Fein had and
0:05:12 > 0:05:17has a commitment from the British Government to put to consultation
0:05:17 > 0:05:22the legacy mechanisms agreed at Stormont house and, crucially, to
0:05:22 > 0:05:27release the funding requested by the Lord Justice, the Lord Chief
0:05:27 > 0:05:32Justice, for coroners' chorus. Sinn Fein accepted in the draft agreement
0:05:32 > 0:05:37the DUP proposal on the stability of the institutions. There was
0:05:37 > 0:05:40agreement that the British Government will legislate so that
0:05:40 > 0:05:44the Justice Minister will be elected in the same manner as other
0:05:44 > 0:05:53ministers, that is to say following the Assembly elections in 2022. We
0:05:53 > 0:05:58understood above all else that we had a deal. We understood that we
0:05:58 > 0:06:02had landed on a respectable, workable accommodation. From what I
0:06:02 > 0:06:07have told you, you will gather we did not get it on your own way. You
0:06:07 > 0:06:13never expect that to happen. We did make room for issues like the
0:06:13 > 0:06:20sustainability piece which was critical. We were
0:06:20 > 0:06:24critical. We were told that about all the package of legislation that
0:06:24 > 0:06:27contains the Irish language legislation also had the Ulster
0:06:27 > 0:06:33Scots legislation and had explicit legislation that recognised and
0:06:33 > 0:06:37protected British values and that sense of identity which we do not
0:06:37 > 0:06:42deny and which we do not seek to in any way undermine.According to the
0:06:42 > 0:06:47Sinn Fein leader the draft agreement as she called it contained explicit
0:06:47 > 0:06:51legislation that recognised and protected British values and
0:06:51 > 0:06:57identities. If that is the case, why did the DUP rejected?
0:06:57 > 0:07:01I'm joined by the DUP MP Gregory Campbell.
0:07:01 > 0:07:06She could not have been more clear than what she said this afternoon.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09The two parties had arrived at the draft agreement last week and the
0:07:09 > 0:07:14DUP failed to deliver on it.Let's look at the comments made yesterday
0:07:14 > 0:07:23and today. Yesterday, just to remind people, Michelle O'Neill said we had
0:07:23 > 0:07:26reached accommodation on all the issues. It was described as an
0:07:26 > 0:07:34accommodation and on all the issues. Now today we hear from the newly
0:07:34 > 0:07:38installed leader and she described it as a draft agreement, but there
0:07:38 > 0:07:41were some issues that we did not reach agreement on. You pay your
0:07:41 > 0:07:47money and you make your choice.How would you describe? Put us out of
0:07:47 > 0:07:50our misery because it sounds like you are dancing on the head of a
0:07:50 > 0:07:55pen. There was an accommodation, and agreement, some kind of draft deal
0:07:55 > 0:07:59that both are you had agreed as a framework for potential full
0:07:59 > 0:08:04agreement.Can you see that point? No, that is what Sinn Fein would say
0:08:04 > 0:08:08and I have just outlined to you how it changed in 24 hours from
0:08:08 > 0:08:14yesterday to today. In our position we said privately to Sinn Fein and
0:08:14 > 0:08:18publicly on scores of occasions that we would not agree to an Irish
0:08:18 > 0:08:24language act. That is what we said repeatedly, ad nauseam, in the
0:08:24 > 0:08:28public domain and privately to Sinn Fein. White then in the weekend when
0:08:28 > 0:08:36Gerry Adams was about to leave the stage would Sinn Fein say we know
0:08:36 > 0:08:40what they said privately and publicly, but we have got them to
0:08:40 > 0:08:45change their mind and we are going to do a deal and we have signed up
0:08:45 > 0:08:51to it. What fools do they take us for?What do you make of what she
0:08:51 > 0:08:56said today? They were not going to publish the details of the draft
0:08:56 > 0:09:00agreement in their entirety, but she wanted to give people a sense of
0:09:00 > 0:09:07what had been agreed between the two parties, a respectable working
0:09:07 > 0:09:11accommodation as she described it. It seems there was an Irish language
0:09:11 > 0:09:16act in some shape or form. There was also to be official recognition for
0:09:16 > 0:09:20the Irish language and the Commissioner for the Irish language.
0:09:20 > 0:09:27How did you everything you would be able to sell that your supporters?
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Well, we did not. You are making the mistake others are making. Because
0:09:31 > 0:09:41Sinn Fein has a list of demands, I wish list, and then wishes to prepay
0:09:41 > 0:09:45or portrayed that some sort of accommodation or draft agreement,
0:09:45 > 0:09:52depending on the day you speak to them, you accept that as fact.A lot
0:09:52 > 0:09:56of commentators and journalists have spoken to people engaged in that
0:09:56 > 0:10:00process, and I have as well, and there was some kind of paper that
0:10:00 > 0:10:06you had signed off together to go to and take that to your respective
0:10:06 > 0:10:11supporters for further consultation. Can you see that point? There were
0:10:11 > 0:10:15papers exchanged throughout the process.Was there a final paper at
0:10:15 > 0:10:21the end of last week?No, there was not. I do not understand why
0:10:21 > 0:10:25journalists like you and others do not ask Sinn Fein why did you not
0:10:25 > 0:10:32make it the day before Sinn
0:10:32 > 0:10:36make it the day before Sinn Fein let Gerry Adams go? If there was a deal,
0:10:36 > 0:10:40why did it only emerge on the day before Gerry Adams was going to
0:10:40 > 0:10:44retire? It is utter nonsense.I would put questions like that to
0:10:44 > 0:10:50Sinn Fein if the party agreed to join us.There you go.That is their
0:10:50 > 0:10:56choice and I am talking to you. It is also clear in what Mary Lou
0:10:56 > 0:11:01McDonald said today is that it seems like, and I cannot understand why
0:11:01 > 0:11:05you will not concede this point, that you got quite a lot of what you
0:11:05 > 0:11:10wanted in this final draft paper. No stand-alone Irish language act in
0:11:10 > 0:11:15spite of what Sinn Fein says, no quotas, no compulsory learning of
0:11:15 > 0:11:21Irish, protection for British identity in a consolidated culture
0:11:21 > 0:11:24act, you sidestepped marriage equality legislation, why would you
0:11:24 > 0:11:28throw all of that away after so much hard work and plunge us into this
0:11:28 > 0:11:33political vacuum?Again you have accepted what Sinn Fein want as a
0:11:33 > 0:11:38wish list as some sort of agreed document which it is not.It is more
0:11:38 > 0:11:44than a wish list is ignored?Is it agreement on all the issues that
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Michelle O'Neill said yesterday, or is it agreement on some of the
0:11:47 > 0:11:53issues and just an accommodation as they were outlining today?I do not
0:11:53 > 0:11:56understand why you will not concede the point that there was some kind
0:11:56 > 0:12:00of final paper that went to consultation with DUP members. I
0:12:00 > 0:12:04know that to be the case, I have spoken to people in your party who
0:12:04 > 0:12:10have confirmed there was a draft paper that they took back to talk to
0:12:10 > 0:12:16MLAs and MPs about. Why will you not concede that?There were a series of
0:12:16 > 0:12:22documents.There was a final document that was consulted on.Who
0:12:22 > 0:12:29said that?I will not remain
0:12:29 > 0:12:37said that?I will not remain name them.I thought you would say that.
0:12:37 > 0:12:47It would embarrass you. I tell you what, embarrass me. No, I will not.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51Documents have been exchanged and swapped back and forth over recent
0:12:51 > 0:12:56months and weeks.I am talking about the final document, the latest
0:12:56 > 0:13:00document. You were not there, of course, you were off for ten days
0:13:00 > 0:13:04and not part of the negotiating team.Unfortunately people cannot
0:13:04 > 0:13:11prevent being ill.You accept you were not there.I was there on a
0:13:11 > 0:13:14series of previous occasions.You were not there at the end of last
0:13:14 > 0:13:19week and people we have spoken to work there at the end of last week.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22I was brave continuously as were all the other officers and there was no
0:13:22 > 0:13:28deal upon which we could agree. There was no deal, but there was a
0:13:28 > 0:13:33draft consultation paper for you to consider.There was no draft
0:13:33 > 0:13:37document. Mark, I don't know why you cannot accept some real politic
0:13:37 > 0:13:43here. Was Gerry Adams leaving the stage last weekend? Never mind about
0:13:43 > 0:13:50Gerry Adams. I am asking about why the DUP did not clinch the deal that
0:13:50 > 0:13:56was apparently on the table last weekend. It was to be rubber-stamped
0:13:56 > 0:14:00on Monday.You can keep asking the questions and I will answer them the
0:14:00 > 0:14:07way I want to answer them. Well people believe you? Was Gerry Adams
0:14:07 > 0:14:11going to leave the stage last Saturday or not? Did we all know
0:14:11 > 0:14:17that that was the case? Did anybody get any indication of some draft
0:14:17 > 0:14:25document 48 hours before he left the stage? No, nobody had any, and there
0:14:25 > 0:14:27was no gossip, talk, reference or commentators saying there was going
0:14:27 > 0:14:35to be an agreement because there was not an agreement on the table.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39There were plenty of articles written in newspapers. You know that
0:14:39 > 0:14:49very well. On Thursday of last week. You discussed that on The View last
0:14:49 > 0:14:53Thursday night.That's correct. On Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday when
0:14:53 > 0:14:56talks were ongoing, there was no indication from anyone involved in
0:14:56 > 0:15:01the talks or on the periphery of the talks or even commentators or
0:15:01 > 0:15:06reporters, and no indication anywhere that a draft document was
0:15:06 > 0:15:09going to be circulated, until we come towards the weekend when Gerry
0:15:09 > 0:15:13Adams was about to leave the stage. If you do not want to make that
0:15:13 > 0:15:17correlation or look at that, I am sure that there are many others who
0:15:17 > 0:15:21well. They can draw their own conclusions.Explain this to me,
0:15:21 > 0:15:25Sinn Fein made it clear today that they will make the text of the deal
0:15:25 > 0:15:28available to the British and Irish governments and they will also
0:15:28 > 0:15:34briefed parties north and south. How can they make available a text which
0:15:34 > 0:15:38you have said does not exist?We can certainly make some text of some
0:15:38 > 0:15:42kind that they may have put forward, we can do whatever they want in
0:15:42 > 0:15:47terms of some sort of repeats of documentation to our government and
0:15:47 > 0:15:55their own government and the public. -- release of document. Mary Lou
0:15:55 > 0:15:59McDonald said today... You will have to let me finish, what they cannot
0:15:59 > 0:16:02do is misrepresent that document as an agreed document. It is their own
0:16:02 > 0:16:07document...No one said it was an agreed document, they have said it
0:16:07 > 0:16:13was a final stage document which both of you were going off to
0:16:13 > 0:16:17consult on, your rank and file members on. This is what Mary Lou
0:16:17 > 0:16:21McDonald said, she said she had a firm understanding that it was an
0:16:21 > 0:16:26agreement, only presentational matters were outstanding. Are you
0:16:26 > 0:16:30telling us she was not telling the truth?She said she had an agreement
0:16:30 > 0:16:36with the dealership of the DUP. Is that not correct? That is correct.
0:16:36 > 0:16:41And you have played a clip in the news before this programme started
0:16:41 > 0:16:45for the leader of the DUP made it absolutely clear that no such
0:16:45 > 0:16:48document existed, she also indicated that we have the collegiate
0:16:48 > 0:16:56leadership in the DUP. Now, you are asking me and my colleagues in Sinn
0:16:56 > 0:17:02Fein, telling them they are liars when you ask that? Did Nigel Dodds,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Gregory Campbell, Arlene Foster agree to this draft document? Ask
0:17:05 > 0:17:10that question and see if you are not laughed out of court.What are the
0:17:10 > 0:17:15implications for this mess of the leadership of Arlene Foster, because
0:17:15 > 0:17:18the way that it looks too many people outside of the process is
0:17:18 > 0:17:23that whatever you want to call it, whatever the paper was, whatever the
0:17:23 > 0:17:26latest thinking was, that she then discussed it with her senior party
0:17:26 > 0:17:31members, they did not like it, she could not sell it, and people are
0:17:31 > 0:17:37asking whether she is now in charge of her own party.Well, you see,
0:17:37 > 0:17:42Mark, a very small number of people have asked that ridiculous question.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46Well, lots of people have asked that.Why do you not answered? I
0:17:46 > 0:17:52definitely will answer it.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54definitely will answer it. Have you got any deviation from the answer
0:17:54 > 0:18:01I'm going to give you?I do not know what you will tell me.Go ahead.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05Arlene Foster has no difficulty within the party, did not have any
0:18:05 > 0:18:08difficulty last weekend and will not have any difficulty this weekend. Is
0:18:08 > 0:18:14that clear enough?That is pretty clear.And it is clear and you will
0:18:14 > 0:18:17get that same answer from every person that you pose the question
0:18:17 > 0:18:22to. So, any nonsense that people are peddling that this calls into
0:18:22 > 0:18:27question Arlene Foster's leadership, I mean, you really need to get a
0:18:27 > 0:18:32grip. Unionism gave the answer to Sinn Fein's demand that we accept
0:18:32 > 0:18:36the wish list. We were never going to do that and we did not do that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40You might have wanted to give a farewell present to Gerry Adams,
0:18:40 > 0:18:44that is fine if they want to do that.How does Arlene Foster as your
0:18:44 > 0:18:50leader get this
0:18:50 > 0:18:52leader get this process back on track again?Well, you are
0:18:52 > 0:18:55pejorative and how you have put that question, Mark, when you describe as
0:18:55 > 0:18:59my dear leader.Why did you do that? How does she get the process by
0:18:59 > 0:19:06contract again? We are running out of time. Give me a quick answer,
0:19:06 > 0:19:09please.We would not have run out of time if you had not blocked my
0:19:09 > 0:19:15questions and not allowed me to give answers. What we must do is be calm
0:19:15 > 0:19:18and settle down, everyone has to settle down, we have to get the
0:19:18 > 0:19:23budget passed next
0:19:24 > 0:19:25budget passed next week so that important issues like health,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28education, all of those matters can begin to be addressed. Then we have
0:19:28 > 0:19:31to get a cool, calm period of reflection when parties can sit down
0:19:31 > 0:19:38and say, are we going to go back into some sort of process any more
0:19:38 > 0:19:41realistic tone this time. So we will do away with preconditions and come
0:19:41 > 0:19:44with an open-ended book and we will seek within a short, sharp time they
0:19:44 > 0:19:49read we can get an agreement that we can all buy into.And we will end up
0:19:49 > 0:19:54where we are the last weekend, it all leads to the same conversation
0:19:54 > 0:19:57and the same hurdles have to be overcome.Our view is that we can
0:19:57 > 0:20:02set up a government tomorrow. We know that. You have known that all
0:20:02 > 0:20:05along and estate that somebody who's like Sinn Fein has said that we will
0:20:05 > 0:20:10not set up a government until we get what we want. That cannot lead to an
0:20:10 > 0:20:13agreement. Also people will have time for reflection now and we can
0:20:13 > 0:20:21try to reconvene in a much more constructive mode and anymore and
0:20:21 > 0:20:23that is designed to get agreement and consensus that we can all buy
0:20:23 > 0:20:27into, not just one party and one party saying it is our way or no
0:20:27 > 0:20:30way. That will not result in an agreement.We will have to leave it
0:20:30 > 0:20:35there. Gregory Campbell, thank you for joining us.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38And by the way, we had hoped to speak to someone from Sinn Fein
0:20:38 > 0:20:41live on the programme, but our invitation was declined.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45So, we've heard the views of the two main players at the heart of this
0:20:45 > 0:20:46political breakdown.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47But what about the other parties?
0:20:47 > 0:20:49In a moment we'll hear from the SDLP, Ulster
0:20:49 > 0:20:51Unionists and Alliance.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53First though, here's how some people in Belfast reacted to the news
0:20:53 > 0:20:58that the current talks process was dead in the water.
0:20:58 > 0:21:04Pretty ridiculous, to be honest. I just think that in this teenage they
0:21:04 > 0:21:10should be able to agree on something for the country.I do not think any
0:21:10 > 0:21:13of the issues that anybody has been talking about that people on the
0:21:13 > 0:21:19street really care about more than getting health, education and other
0:21:19 > 0:21:24parts of the government working again. Sinn Fein represents a lot of
0:21:24 > 0:21:29waters and I do not think it is unreasonable that they would like to
0:21:29 > 0:21:35have an Irish Language Act. I do not think it is a huge expense when you
0:21:35 > 0:21:38consider the number of people that are represented.I think it is awful
0:21:38 > 0:21:45and they should put the lot of them into a boat out in sea no worse. Or
0:21:45 > 0:21:50stop their wages. I am working 30 hours each week for less money that
0:21:50 > 0:21:57they are getting, £30,000 each year and they are sitting on their
0:21:57 > 0:21:59bottoms for nothing!Sinn Fein want everything and do not want to give
0:21:59 > 0:22:02everything or anything back.Should there be some compromise around the
0:22:02 > 0:22:10Irish Language Act?No.What concerns you about it?The cost.The
0:22:10 > 0:22:15best thing I can tell you at this moment in time is never say never.
0:22:15 > 0:22:20All we can do mainly and I know it has been said many times before, but
0:22:20 > 0:22:25it is just to keep our heads up, go forward and wait and see because it
0:22:25 > 0:22:32is out of our hands. We have to hope that it gets sorted.I think we need
0:22:32 > 0:22:38direct rule for ASAP for at least five years.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41And joining me now are representatives from the three other
0:22:41 > 0:22:42main parties at Stormont.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44The SDLP leader, Colum Eastwood, is in our Foyle studio.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46His Ulster Unionist counterpart, Robin Swann, is with me
0:22:46 > 0:22:49in the studio, alongside the deputy leader of the Alliance
0:22:49 > 0:22:52Party, Stephen Farry.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54Welcome to you all.
0:22:54 > 0:22:55Welcome to you all.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Robin Swann, your party was very clear that an Irish Language Act
0:22:58 > 0:23:01should not be part of any deal, and on that rock, this deal
0:23:01 > 0:23:02appears to have perished.
0:23:02 > 0:23:03Are you happy about that?
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Our party has been clear on the position of an Irish Language Act
0:23:06 > 0:23:09for 20 years. We did not see any need for it in the Good Friday
0:23:09 > 0:23:11Agreement but back then we did want the creation of two distinct bodies.
0:23:11 > 0:23:17We knew back then that when language and culture was brought into
0:23:17 > 0:23:20politics and given to the hands of politicians that would cause a
0:23:20 > 0:23:24problem. That is really want to be and that is a problem we are at low.
0:23:24 > 0:23:34Politicians have made this into an issue that it not be.The quiet
0:23:34 > 0:23:36reflection on Gregory Campbell who maintains that there was no draft
0:23:36 > 0:23:38agreement, there was no accommodation, there was no deal.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42Mary Lou McDonald has a different perspective on things. How do you
0:23:42 > 0:23:45square that circle? It is not up to me to do that. What is your
0:23:45 > 0:23:50impression?We believe that there was a draft agreement.On the basis
0:23:50 > 0:23:57of what?On where we got two on Monday and Tuesday. It was clear on
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Friday had the Secretary of State had sight of an agreement at that
0:24:00 > 0:24:04stage and she said no. Over the weekend something dramatically moved
0:24:04 > 0:24:06enough to bring the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach to Northern
0:24:06 > 0:24:10Ireland, so there had to be something germinating between the
0:24:10 > 0:24:13two parties. There had to be something more than just a hope
0:24:13 > 0:24:18surely for both the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach to appear in
0:24:18 > 0:24:23Belfast.Colum Eastwood joining us, do you believe there was a draft
0:24:23 > 0:24:26deal or has that been overplayed?Of course, we were not in the room when
0:24:26 > 0:24:31these things were being done, but it is quite clear that my best guess
0:24:31 > 0:24:34was that there was a deal and I am told that it was on the table and
0:24:34 > 0:24:38October and people have walked away from it and walked back to it a
0:24:38 > 0:24:41number of times ever since. The most important thing that people need to
0:24:41 > 0:24:45be talking about, not whether there was a Friday night were not, but
0:24:45 > 0:24:53what we have now is no government and the prospect of the
0:24:58 > 0:25:00and the prospect of the British government bringing any budget here,
0:25:00 > 0:25:04a British government who are in cahoots with the DUP. So what this
0:25:04 > 0:25:06has delivered is the DUP taking decision to Northern Ireland on
0:25:06 > 0:25:08their own. That goes against everything that the Good Friday
0:25:08 > 0:25:10Agreement stands for, it goes against both of the progress that we
0:25:10 > 0:25:13have met. The Good Friday Agreement is underpinned by the idea that
0:25:13 > 0:25:15there are two different nationalities and they both have to
0:25:15 > 0:25:17have a place. We cannot accept and nobody should accept the British
0:25:17 > 0:25:20Government with the DUP making decisions in Northern Ireland. Let
0:25:20 > 0:25:28me tell you this, Mark. Unionism I believe has been badly served by
0:25:28 > 0:25:31people like Gregory Campbell and Arlene Foster. And as a nationalist,
0:25:31 > 0:25:35I would like to tell Unionists that my Irishness is not threatened, your
0:25:35 > 0:25:41Britishness is not threatened and we have to find a way to bring that
0:25:41 > 0:25:46common endeavour about to bring about something that will work for
0:25:46 > 0:25:50each other because this is going nowhere. Unless we get a grip of
0:25:50 > 0:25:55this thing. People have to understand that people like Arlene
0:25:55 > 0:25:58Foster and Gregory Campbell are driving nationals away from the
0:25:58 > 0:26:02notion of Stormont and I will do everything it can to bring them back
0:26:02 > 0:26:05to the position that we have to have partnership and co-operation but we
0:26:05 > 0:26:08need help and we have to move each other into the middle. This cannot
0:26:08 > 0:26:13go on like this for much longer and people have to understand the
0:26:13 > 0:26:17seriousness of this.Before I come to the Alliance representative, how
0:26:17 > 0:26:24do you respond to that?My Unionism is not threatened by his nationalism
0:26:24 > 0:26:27and vice versa, we have seen that in Northern Ireland. We have seen that
0:26:27 > 0:26:33for the first ten years since the Good Friday Agreement and we have
0:26:33 > 0:26:37tried to make this place work. In the last two elections we have seen
0:26:37 > 0:26:41polarisation in Northern Ireland. We have to build the live side by side,
0:26:41 > 0:26:43we will always have our differences and we have to work through them but
0:26:43 > 0:26:49it is how we solve that. I am not threatened by the Irish Language Act
0:26:49 > 0:26:54or Ulster nationalism, I have no problem with the Irish language. The
0:26:54 > 0:26:57Irish language actor something very different.But the sky would not
0:26:57 > 0:27:03fall down.
0:27:06 > 0:27:10fall down.Mary Lou McDonald talked about a commissioner and when we
0:27:10 > 0:27:14look back at the draft in 2015, a commissioner would have the same
0:27:14 > 0:27:22powers as a High Court to.You do not know that. I was told it was a
0:27:22 > 0:27:25very watered-down version of an Irish Language Commissioner that the
0:27:25 > 0:27:29strap was suggesting.You are saying that and so am I. The 2015 draft
0:27:29 > 0:27:35consultation... We have not seen anything different.I am only
0:27:35 > 0:27:39telling you what I have been told. An Irish Language Commissioner can
0:27:39 > 0:27:44mean lots of different things. Yes. Stephen Farry, let me ask you first
0:27:44 > 0:27:47week, at the beginning of this conversation, Mary Lou McDonald said
0:27:47 > 0:27:53there was a draft deal, Arlene Foster said that is not the case,
0:27:53 > 0:27:55what do you think?It would seem that there was some accommodation
0:27:55 > 0:28:02reached last week.Why do you say that?We had a briefing given to the
0:28:02 > 0:28:06Belfast Telegraph, I would doubt that was Sinn Fein doing that. The
0:28:06 > 0:28:09first paragraph carries the material of the DUP and I would suspect the
0:28:09 > 0:28:16other source of that briefing. They were confident enough, the DUP, to
0:28:16 > 0:28:24spurned. Can I tell you on the wider point, Northern Ireland today is in
0:28:24 > 0:28:28a very precarious situation, we have been pulled apart by the fact that
0:28:28 > 0:28:31there is no government, polarisation is more intense than at any time in
0:28:31 > 0:28:36the previous 20 years. There are massive problems around Brexit and
0:28:36 > 0:28:42we need something in place to manage any form special arrangement to get
0:28:42 > 0:28:43this through this massive challenge. None of that is currently on the
0:28:43 > 0:28:49table. We can only have power sharing in terms of our governments,
0:28:49 > 0:28:52we have to reflect the unionist and nationalist traditions and people
0:28:52 > 0:28:55from other backgrounds and the reality is that other people put it
0:28:55 > 0:28:59on the table or not, the reality is that we have to have an
0:28:59 > 0:29:02accommodation on the language issue, that is no route did evolution that
0:29:02 > 0:29:08does not run through some form of accommodation, and what we have seen
0:29:08 > 0:29:11even from Robin, there are a lot of things being erected as to what this
0:29:11 > 0:29:15act was going to have. They were false claims, you were talking about
0:29:15 > 0:29:18Gaelic and campaigning for things that were never going to be the
0:29:18 > 0:29:21final product. They put for this compromise around the potential
0:29:21 > 0:29:25bells and I am pleased to see that that has been reflected on what has
0:29:25 > 0:29:30been breathed so far. But we have to have a realistic approach to the
0:29:30 > 0:29:33Irish Language Act. We voted against the previous version because we
0:29:33 > 0:29:37thought that was too extreme and too far reaching. But equally we
0:29:37 > 0:29:43recognise we have to have some pragmatic compromise.
0:29:43 > 0:29:48Colum Eastwood, have you spoken to anyone in Sinn Fein about the
0:29:48 > 0:29:51contents of this apparent accommodation or draft agreement? Do
0:29:51 > 0:30:01you know any more detail about what was in it?No, we will be speaking
0:30:01 > 0:30:05tomorrow. I was disappointed to hear the announcement today after a year
0:30:05 > 0:30:14of being asked whose rights are you going to compromise on? People were
0:30:14 > 0:30:17telling me I was sitting at the back of the bus because I was asking
0:30:17 > 0:30:24people to compromise. We wanted to ensure that any deal around language
0:30:24 > 0:30:29would be maintained and sustained. To find out there is no work done
0:30:29 > 0:30:34and that marriage equality has been left again in a way that it will not
0:30:34 > 0:30:38succeed through the Northern Ireland Assembly is very disappointing. If
0:30:38 > 0:30:43we want to get back to this again, we have to get back to the things
0:30:43 > 0:30:47that we have been saying, that we have to deal with the fact the
0:30:47 > 0:30:52Assembly is set up in such a way that provides a unionist veto. I do
0:30:52 > 0:30:57not want anyone to have a veto over people's rides and that is what that
0:30:57 > 0:31:06deal maintained.Sorry to cut across you. Do you think maybe the DUP
0:31:06 > 0:31:11played a pretty good hand during negotiations and managed to water
0:31:11 > 0:31:15down some of what may have seen some of the more acceptable demands of
0:31:15 > 0:31:21Sinn Fein, on things like same-sex marriage and on some of the things
0:31:21 > 0:31:26like the Irish language demands?I do not know the full detail of the
0:31:26 > 0:31:31Irish Language Act, but it seems to me they watered down all of it apart
0:31:31 > 0:31:36from the language. Let's wait and see the detail. If we are going to
0:31:36 > 0:31:40get back to a process of discussion, everybody should be involved because
0:31:40 > 0:31:44I for one will be making a very strong case as I have done for the
0:31:44 > 0:31:51last year that the petition of consent to make sure that issues
0:31:51 > 0:31:55like language do not get picked as we go through the legislative
0:31:55 > 0:31:58process. We have to make sure it is not a dead-end veto against people's
0:31:58 > 0:32:05right. That is what happened in the last couple of assemblies and that
0:32:05 > 0:32:10has to stop if people are serious about a rights -based society. That
0:32:10 > 0:32:14is the biggest bloc to people achieving their rights. If we are
0:32:14 > 0:32:20serious about getting back to this, let's do it properly. What I have
0:32:20 > 0:32:25seen so far is I do not think the DUP have done the job that they set
0:32:25 > 0:32:32out to do.Nobody seems to know what the next move is. What is it?We
0:32:32 > 0:32:39need to go to Westminster.A precedent had been set. Then do we
0:32:39 > 0:32:43need to go to an election? Technically that is what needs to
0:32:43 > 0:32:49happen.If an election is called and the Secretary of State thinks that
0:32:49 > 0:32:57is where we need to go, it would not change much. Let's see where we are.
0:32:57 > 0:33:01If the Secretary of State wants to call an election, I am not scared of
0:33:01 > 0:33:08one, we will take it as it comes, but it will not change the problems.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11That is what this current set of politicians were elected to do,
0:33:11 > 0:33:16change the problems and come up with solutions and work through them.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19Stephen Farry, I made the point at the end of the interview with
0:33:19 > 0:33:27Gregory Campbell and all people say that all roads lead back to the same
0:33:27 > 0:33:31place and the issues have to be resolved between Sinn Fein and the
0:33:31 > 0:33:36DUP.The issues remain the same, and there are other issues that need to
0:33:36 > 0:33:42be addressed as well. But we have had massive issues in terms of the
0:33:42 > 0:33:46health system, the education system and the economy and it is all
0:33:46 > 0:33:48building up and sitting on the shelf and we are falling behind in terms
0:33:48 > 0:33:56of these challenges. Yes, we need something clarified through London
0:33:56 > 0:34:03sometime next week. But we have to come back to some sort of talks.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07There is a lot of bad blood as a consequence of what happened this
0:34:07 > 0:34:11week and also in terms of the credibility of the people doing the
0:34:11 > 0:34:18negotiations. But we have to get round that in some shape or form. We
0:34:18 > 0:34:25have to reflect the diversity of opinions.What do you think needs to
0:34:25 > 0:34:30happen next? I know you have talked about the importance of the British
0:34:30 > 0:34:34intergovernmental conference. It has not met for a very long time.There
0:34:34 > 0:34:39is a first step and we have to understand the spirit of the Good
0:34:39 > 0:34:41Friday Agreement that recognises there are two traditions and they
0:34:41 > 0:34:46both need to be respected. We cannot have the DUP and the British
0:34:46 > 0:34:50Government making decisions for everybody in Northern Ireland. The
0:34:50 > 0:34:54Irish government has to be involved in a real way. That is why the
0:34:54 > 0:34:58British Government and the leaders of all the political parties in the
0:34:58 > 0:35:02South need to reiterate that call. We cannot be left at the whim of
0:35:02 > 0:35:07people like Gregory and Sammy Wilson doing deals in Westminster. That
0:35:07 > 0:35:11cannot happen, it would be a very regressive step and one that would
0:35:11 > 0:35:16be difficult to come back from. Thank you all for joining us.
0:35:16 > 0:35:17Thank you all for joining us.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19Only one story to talk about tonight with our commentators
0:35:19 > 0:35:24Fionnuala O Connor and Alex Kane.
0:35:24 > 0:35:28They have been waiting patiently. Good evening. Thank you for joining
0:35:28 > 0:35:35us again on the programme. Good to have you both back. Let's talk about
0:35:35 > 0:35:41Gregory Campbell. He is clear there was no draft deal up for discussion
0:35:41 > 0:35:45in spite of what Mary Lou McDonald said. People will wonder how they
0:35:45 > 0:35:52can both be right.He was not clear, he was evasive and it was very
0:35:52 > 0:35:55difficult to think how he would convince anybody when he kept going
0:35:55 > 0:36:00off into that nonsense about Gerry Adams.What was that about? I was
0:36:00 > 0:36:05not sure. But he wanted to talk about it. Did you understand the
0:36:05 > 0:36:09point he was making about Gerry Adams?Most extraordinary thing
0:36:09 > 0:36:16about this process is these guys have been talking point ten months
0:36:16 > 0:36:20in a government of 30 months and they have not got a clue about what
0:36:20 > 0:36:25they agreed. Two people said they did nothing but talk to each other
0:36:25 > 0:36:30and they know nothing. You know I never thought a deal was likely.
0:36:30 > 0:36:36Last week it seemed likely and the DUP said no. But by Monday morning
0:36:36 > 0:36:41they were so spooked the DUP grassroots put so much pressure on
0:36:41 > 0:36:46the leadership that Arlene Foster had to close it down. Whatever was
0:36:46 > 0:36:52agreed at that point it scared them enough to stop it.It leaves Arlene
0:36:52 > 0:37:02Foster very badly damaged.He was annoyed I asked that question.He
0:37:02 > 0:37:06has been out of it for two weeks with the flu or whatever and he can
0:37:06 > 0:37:11say what he likes. But it is undeniable. She is badly damaged and
0:37:11 > 0:37:16I do not know how she goes forward into another set of negotiations,
0:37:16 > 0:37:22how anyone can take her seriously. It is almost pitiable. Inside that
0:37:22 > 0:37:25party there is nobody else who is willing to take the job and there is
0:37:25 > 0:37:34nobody else jockeying for it. Everything she has touched has gone
0:37:34 > 0:37:40bad and there is the inquiry coming up shortly.He was very robust. He
0:37:40 > 0:37:44said he was fully briefed and he knows what happened and he said it
0:37:44 > 0:37:48was a ridiculous question even to raise about her position as leader.
0:37:48 > 0:37:54He would say that. He was put up because he had not been at the talks
0:37:54 > 0:37:57for the last couple of weeks and he was going to say what ever needed to
0:37:57 > 0:38:02be said. He was being very loyal, he has not always been loyal to the
0:38:02 > 0:38:08leadership.I think her authority has been damaged, but neither of
0:38:08 > 0:38:12these parties have come out of it well. These parties made an
0:38:12 > 0:38:14arrangement ten years ago that they would provide consensus and a stable
0:38:14 > 0:38:22government. They said they could do better. They have had ten years of
0:38:22 > 0:38:26stand-offs, of crises and after 13 months to say we are better, we have
0:38:26 > 0:38:32got the Monday, and they still cannot do it.
0:38:33 > 0:38:38cannot do it.Both parties failed to reach agreement.Sinn Fein. They did
0:38:38 > 0:38:41reach an agreement. I want to know what they thought why they reached
0:38:41 > 0:38:47an agreement. It is very hard to see what they got out of it.Were you
0:38:47 > 0:38:53surprised by that?I was surprised how Mary Lou McDonald presented it.
0:38:53 > 0:38:57She presented it as fact, there was no attempt to dress it up.Did it
0:38:57 > 0:39:03surprise you?We were told on same-sex marriage would go to a
0:39:03 > 0:39:08private member's build and one party would be allowed to produce a
0:39:08 > 0:39:16petition of concern.One party could not do it on its own.The DUP and an
0:39:16 > 0:39:20Ulster Unionist, Jim Allister, would be able to cripple that bill.I was
0:39:20 > 0:39:26struck by the fact that they said they had an agreement, and they did
0:39:26 > 0:39:34in Saint Andrews. But on legacy, come on!It is fascinating stuff.
0:39:34 > 0:39:35That's it from The View for tonight.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37There's no Sunday Politics this weekend, but, unlike Stormont,
0:39:37 > 0:39:39The View will be back next week.
0:39:39 > 0:39:47Good night.
0:39:58 > 0:40:07# And I am stuck on you and I am here still trying to figure it out.
0:40:07 > 0:40:16# I can hardly sleep, I am still trying to figure it out.
0:40:16 > 0:40:28# And I am stuck on you and I am here still trying to figure it out.