0:00:04 > 0:00:08Whatever you choose to call it - a draft deal, a draft framework,
0:00:08 > 0:00:11an accomodation, an understanding - the process is over and we're
0:00:11 > 0:00:13back in limbo - again.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17But how do we pick up the pieces - and where do we go from here?
0:00:17 > 0:00:25Welcome to The View...
0:00:39 > 0:00:42It was the week in which the only barrier to agreement seemed to be
0:00:42 > 0:00:45several sets of square brackets.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48The DUP's Sir Jeffrey Donaldson and Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly
0:00:48 > 0:00:51are with me to explain why the words contained within those brackets have
0:00:51 > 0:00:54been allowed to become the source of the latest political dispute
0:00:54 > 0:00:55here.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58I'll be asking them how they plan to break the current
0:00:58 > 0:01:01logjam over devolution, direct rule and Dublin involvement.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05And as the first formal steps are taken to hold a referendum
0:01:05 > 0:01:10on abortion in the Republic, we hear from both sides in the debate...
0:01:10 > 0:01:15I have been called a murderer. I know that I'm not. That is all that
0:01:15 > 0:01:20matters. How I sleep at night is that by 100% do not believe that.
0:01:20 > 0:01:28Less women are having abortions because our society has become more
0:01:28 > 0:01:31tolerant and compassionate and giving women better support.
0:01:31 > 0:01:32And back
0:01:32 > 0:01:33in Commentators' Corner
0:01:33 > 0:01:34to reflect on the latest
0:01:34 > 0:01:37twists and turns - the News Letter's Sam McBride
0:01:37 > 0:01:38and Allison Morris from the Irish News...
0:01:38 > 0:01:39Hello.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42It's just over a week since the Stormont talks collapsed amidst
0:01:42 > 0:01:43finger-pointing and recrimination.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47Since then we've seen the publication of a leaked thirteen
0:01:47 > 0:01:49page 'draft agreement text', the status of which the two big
0:01:49 > 0:01:52parties refuse to agree on.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54We've had statements, denials, assurances and a series
0:01:54 > 0:01:55of Prime Ministerial meetings.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58What we haven't had is any clear idea of what happens next.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Let's see if Jeffrey Donaldson and Gerry Kelly can clarify
0:02:01 > 0:02:02things for us tonight.
0:02:02 > 0:02:08Welcome to you both...
0:02:08 > 0:02:11Thank you for joining us. Sir Jeffrey
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Thank you for joining us. Sir Jeffrey, before we dive in, you have
0:02:13 > 0:02:18come from a meeting with the DUP executive, that meeting was
0:02:18 > 0:02:21discussing a restructuring of party officers, what form did that take?
0:02:21 > 0:02:28I'm not sure where that came from. It wasn't our meeting for changing
0:02:28 > 0:02:33anything. We received a report back from the party leader, from our
0:02:33 > 0:02:39negotiation team on the talks. The executive strongly endorsed the
0:02:39 > 0:02:44stance taken by our leader and the talks team.No promotion Saudi
0:02:44 > 0:02:49motions? Was Arlene Foster's leadership discussed formally?Not
0:02:49 > 0:02:57at all -- or demotions.Nothing about the past ten days?There was
0:02:57 > 0:03:01strong support for her at the meeting tonight.Was it unanimous
0:03:01 > 0:03:06support?I would describe it that way. As always, in the party, we had
0:03:06 > 0:03:11a good debate on the issues but in terms of the leadership, not a
0:03:11 > 0:03:15single dissenting voice.A good debate about the issues, there were
0:03:15 > 0:03:18dissenting voices on how the situation was handled?I wouldn't
0:03:18 > 0:03:25say that. A good debate is on the issues. There was no dissent around
0:03:25 > 0:03:29the stance the party had taken. Arlene Foster said yesterday very
0:03:29 > 0:03:33clearly that she was never contemplating an Irish language act.
0:03:33 > 0:03:40Do you believe her when she says that? Absolutely.Do think everybody
0:03:40 > 0:03:45else believes her? The facts speak for themselves. The DUP made their
0:03:45 > 0:03:53position clear. We do not dislike people speaking in Irish and
0:03:53 > 0:03:57teaching their children Irish, we spent £192 million in the last five
0:03:57 > 0:04:03years on the Irish language in Northern Ireland, £192 million.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Those are not my figures, independently verified statistics.
0:04:06 > 0:04:13Now, that being the case, the question for me is, what do we do
0:04:13 > 0:04:20next? The bottom line, Mark, it is clear for my party. We uphold and
0:04:20 > 0:04:25respect the right of whoever chooses and wishes to speak and learn a
0:04:25 > 0:04:29language in Northern Ireland. But we do not believe it is right to impose
0:04:29 > 0:04:35that language on others.Who is suggesting imposing it? A lot of
0:04:35 > 0:04:38proposals that have come forward from the Irish language groups and
0:04:38 > 0:04:43Sinn Fein, they include signage, using the language in public
0:04:43 > 0:04:47services, having a quota for people taking up employment in public
0:04:47 > 0:04:52services... In this text, I have it in front of me, I'm sure you've read
0:04:52 > 0:04:58it, 13 pages, are those issues addressed. These negotiations in the
0:04:58 > 0:05:03text, you made it clear?Yes, but there are issues still contained
0:05:03 > 0:05:06within the proposals that we find unacceptable.But it was a very
0:05:06 > 0:05:11advanced piece of work. Tightly argued and carefully drafted over a
0:05:11 > 0:05:16very long period of time. Ready to be signed off on. Presentational
0:05:16 > 0:05:21differences only at the very end. With respect, I think they were more
0:05:21 > 0:05:24than presentational. Square brackets around key elements of the document
0:05:24 > 0:05:30show there still wasn't agreement on the text within the document. Still
0:05:30 > 0:05:34not agreement on some of the proposals, specifically related to
0:05:34 > 0:05:38the Irish language act. If anyone takes time to read the document in
0:05:38 > 0:05:41any great detail, the number of words inside square brackets, that
0:05:41 > 0:05:46is very small in proportion to the 13 pages?As Arlene Foster made
0:05:46 > 0:05:50clear, before the talks came to an end, we had made real progress
0:05:50 > 0:05:55across a range of issues. We do not deny that. It is our progress, we
0:05:55 > 0:06:00worked hard to make it.With the greatest respect, your colleague,
0:06:00 > 0:06:05Gregory Campbell, on the programme last week, he denied the DUP's
0:06:05 > 0:06:10fingerprints were over this text at all. He said it was of no more
0:06:10 > 0:06:13significance of any of the papers exchanged over the last few weeks.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17One week and it looks very different?Let me be very clear. The
0:06:17 > 0:06:23document that you have is the latest iteration in a whole series of
0:06:23 > 0:06:26documents that were exchanged between the two parties. The
0:06:26 > 0:06:33document was constantly changing. The final iteration...That is not
0:06:33 > 0:06:37the final iteration. I disagree, it is not the final iteration. It
0:06:37 > 0:06:41cannot be because it is not agreed. There are still elements of that
0:06:41 > 0:06:46document not agreed. Let me be clear, in order for us to agree to
0:06:46 > 0:06:51the proposals, they need to be changes to the text that is that. We
0:06:51 > 0:06:55cannot and will not accept the document in its current form. That's
0:06:55 > 0:07:00our position. Gregory Rose White to say that there is -- Gregory was
0:07:00 > 0:07:05right to say there is not an agreement.But there was a very well
0:07:05 > 0:07:08developed most recent iteration of that document, and it is clear, if
0:07:08 > 0:07:17you read Eamon Malley and Brian Rowan, there was a large
0:07:17 > 0:07:19correspondence around that, during which senior representatives of the
0:07:19 > 0:07:25DUP, your party negotiators, were negotiating under the headline of
0:07:25 > 0:07:30"Final draft agreement text".The keywords you use there is the most
0:07:30 > 0:07:35recent iteration. That's all. It is not the final product. It cannot be.
0:07:35 > 0:07:43Because it has not been agreed.You pulled out. It is the last draft.It
0:07:43 > 0:07:49was as far as we had got.You decided to walk out, you did not
0:07:49 > 0:07:52tell us all the British government you were walking out, or the Irish
0:07:52 > 0:07:56government. You went straight to the press and you pulled the
0:07:56 > 0:08:01negotiations down. For the record, that is a DUP draft. That is the
0:08:01 > 0:08:08draft that came from the DUP.It came from the DUP to Sinn Fein?It
0:08:08 > 0:08:13can be proven, it was sent by e-mail.Do you accept Jeffrey
0:08:13 > 0:08:16Donaldson's point that there are significant portions of this that
0:08:16 > 0:08:21remain inside of square brackets which have not been signed off on.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24As you pointed out, these are presentational issues. But, let's
0:08:24 > 0:08:31get back to this, Jeffrey started off on facts and he talked about 192
0:08:31 > 0:08:37million. Let's deal with that. The statistic is that education involved
0:08:37 > 0:08:41in the Irish language medium. The children who have a human right to
0:08:41 > 0:08:48education, that money would have been spent on them anyway. So here
0:08:48 > 0:08:53we go again. With this misinterpretation of what was said.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57He started arguing against himself over the issue that this was going
0:08:57 > 0:09:11to be thrust on people.I did not say that.Your supporters said that.
0:09:11 > 0:09:18But the DUP were in negotiations. The DUP knew that it was not true.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22Unhelpful for Sinn Fein, to have Irish language activists saying that
0:09:22 > 0:09:26on the airwaves. That undercut your position.It doesn't matter, people
0:09:26 > 0:09:30have the right to say whatever they want to say.But it did not help you
0:09:30 > 0:09:36in the negotiations, it spooked the DUP.To be clear, DUP negotiations
0:09:36 > 0:09:39went through line by line of the legislation involved in the Irish
0:09:39 > 0:09:47language act. And the Ulster Scots act. They went through and agreed
0:09:47 > 0:09:52it.What I am interested in, you have accepted, Jeffrey, that there
0:09:52 > 0:09:57was not a deal that you have said there was a long process of
0:09:57 > 0:10:01negotiation and this document is the most recent iteration of that
0:10:01 > 0:10:04process, you accept that it was carefully drafted and worded and a
0:10:04 > 0:10:10lot of hard work went into it. On Tuesday night, on Spotlight, your
0:10:10 > 0:10:14colleague said he had a hand in writing this document, Gregory
0:10:14 > 0:10:18Campbell said it did not exist a week ago but things have moved on.
0:10:18 > 0:10:27This draft is 13 pages long, and it has a series of detailed annexes.
0:10:27 > 0:10:32These bills spreading across some 20 pages, according to tonight's latest
0:10:32 > 0:10:40revelation on the Eamon Malley website. It doesn't stand up to
0:10:40 > 0:10:43intelligent scrutiny. You saying that suddenly at the last movement,
0:10:43 > 0:10:48all of the Irish language stuff would come out? I'm not saying that
0:10:48 > 0:10:54at all.I'm saying that elements of the document on the Irish language
0:10:54 > 0:11:00had not been agreed. We have major concerns on those proposals. In
0:11:00 > 0:11:06relation to the draft legislation... The point is the bits within square
0:11:06 > 0:11:12brackets were not agree. There's plenty in here about it, not in
0:11:12 > 0:11:16square brackets, but it was officially recognition of the
0:11:16 > 0:11:23language status in Northern Ireland. Going through the details of what
0:11:23 > 0:11:26the commissioner would do and will not do, the best practice standards,
0:11:26 > 0:11:31the same thing for Ulster Scots and the same for the white respecting
0:11:31 > 0:11:35diversity. Those are not in square brackets.They are not but the
0:11:35 > 0:11:38principle of how they will be dealt with why not agreed. On the basis
0:11:38 > 0:11:42that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, that's the
0:11:42 > 0:11:49basis on which we operate. I can say to you...You walked out! Of the
0:11:49 > 0:11:56negotiations.That was not prepared by our negotiators, the draft
0:11:56 > 0:12:00legislation was drawn up by officials within the Northern
0:12:00 > 0:12:09Ireland Office, who looked at the latest iteration and where it had
0:12:09 > 0:12:13got to. We had not accepted or endorsed or said that we would run
0:12:13 > 0:12:17with any of that stuff. The reason being, we had not agreed to
0:12:17 > 0:12:22anything.You were preparing to do a deal that would include legislation
0:12:22 > 0:12:26for the Irish language act. It does not tie in with what your party
0:12:26 > 0:12:31leaders said the other day. She was not contemplating it at all. Clearly
0:12:31 > 0:12:36someone in the DUP was contemplating it.We never said that we could not
0:12:36 > 0:12:40legislate, what we said was that we would not agree to a freestanding
0:12:40 > 0:12:46Irish language act. That is what we have said.You would accept Irish
0:12:46 > 0:12:52language legislation? Actually, this has shifted...We already have Irish
0:12:52 > 0:12:56language legislation.Fresh Irish language legislation?We said we
0:12:56 > 0:13:00would look but we are clear that while we will uphold the right of
0:13:00 > 0:13:06people, if they so wish, to learn or speak Irish, what we will not agree
0:13:06 > 0:13:09to, this is where there are difficulties to what is proposed at
0:13:09 > 0:13:12the moment, we think it still crosses the boundary for us and that
0:13:12 > 0:13:18is that we do not want to have circumstances for people who do not
0:13:18 > 0:13:23want to speak Irish have it imposed upon them.Where is it mentioned?
0:13:23 > 0:13:29Where has anyone suggested that? He does not want that, why do you keep
0:13:29 > 0:13:34mentioning it?There are elements in these proposals that give us cause.
0:13:34 > 0:13:39Can you clarify this for us?It has been clarified over and again. There
0:13:39 > 0:13:44was no issue of making anything compulsory for people to deductwhat
0:13:44 > 0:13:53about craters?Quotas were not involved. -- Reuters.And finally,
0:13:53 > 0:13:57here is the reality of the situation. With Sinn Fein's
0:13:57 > 0:14:01determination to push for a freestanding Irish language act, it
0:14:01 > 0:14:05has brought the whole thing tumbling down around everyone's ears. If you
0:14:05 > 0:14:09had been realistic and listened more carefully to DUP negotiators, you
0:14:09 > 0:14:15would have accepted that they could not sell it.Why would it be up to
0:14:15 > 0:14:19me? They are the negotiators, they need to work out what they can and
0:14:19 > 0:14:25cannot do.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28cannot do. You'd expect for 20 minutes. Let's deal with the issues.
0:14:28 > 0:14:35We got to this draft act, whatever you want to call it, but that's what
0:14:35 > 0:14:39it was. The fact that Jeffrey hasn't answered is that they didn't come
0:14:39 > 0:14:45back and argue for something else, they walk out, they walked out. They
0:14:45 > 0:14:51brought this to a fault. In fact, one of the things I noticed earlier
0:14:51 > 0:14:58on, either love -- I believe Baroness Paisley said, we wouldn't
0:14:58 > 0:15:04be in any of this if you'd read the text. Let me say this, because
0:15:04 > 0:15:08Jeffrey spoke for quite a long time. At the core of this, what we are
0:15:08 > 0:15:12dealing with and the issues we are dealing with other whether it is
0:15:12 > 0:15:22legacy or the Irish language act, is that the DUP's stance is to refuse
0:15:22 > 0:15:25those rights which exist everywhere else on these islands.That is not
0:15:25 > 0:15:32the case.Their people supportive of an Irish culture and language and
0:15:32 > 0:15:35feel there is not parity of esteem for their worldview in Northern
0:15:35 > 0:15:42Ireland.What rights do they not have that I have?They don't feel
0:15:42 > 0:15:50that their Irish this is respected. He is an -- give me an example of
0:15:50 > 0:15:53how people who regard themselves as Irish living on this part of the
0:15:53 > 0:16:00eyelid of parity of esteem with people who are British. -- part of
0:16:00 > 0:16:05the island.It costs five times more to educate an Irish child than it
0:16:05 > 0:16:10costs to educate the children that go to the schools that go in the
0:16:10 > 0:16:16community 's...You answer my question?My Britishness is being
0:16:16 > 0:16:21eroded. I could sit here and say that my rights are being denied. I
0:16:21 > 0:16:29see my Britishness being diminished in Northern Ireland.How?When I
0:16:29 > 0:16:33hear people in Sinn Fein constantly denigrating my Britishness, I can
0:16:33 > 0:16:38say that my rights... I don't accept... I do not accept that Irish
0:16:38 > 0:16:41language speakers in Northern Ireland have been denied rights. I
0:16:41 > 0:16:46don't accept that. I think we have provided very generously for the
0:16:46 > 0:16:54Irish language.Collectively. Listen to what he's saying, he is saying
0:16:54 > 0:17:01that... He is saying they had not been denied rights.And yet we were
0:17:01 > 0:17:05so far on in talking about this, so now Jeffrey is saying all of that
0:17:05 > 0:17:10stuff is nonsense, because their actual position is that there were
0:17:10 > 0:17:15no rights to talk about in the first place.I'd love to have time to
0:17:15 > 0:17:19explore this because I think it's interesting. Make it quick.Less
0:17:19 > 0:17:23than 1% of people in Northern Ireland speak Irish as their first
0:17:23 > 0:17:30language.It's become totemic because of how DUP has handled it in
0:17:30 > 0:17:41the past.That's rubbish.Jeffrey, you don't think the decision that
0:17:41 > 0:17:45was made 18 months ago has made a difference? You don't think that
0:17:45 > 0:17:54weaponised the issue?Sinn Fein weaponised the issue.You don't
0:17:54 > 0:17:58think those things caused difficulties?When you set those
0:17:58 > 0:18:01things alongside what the Northern Ireland Assembly has done to promote
0:18:01 > 0:18:04the Irish language in Northern Ireland, at huge cost, I don't
0:18:04 > 0:18:11accept that a language spoken by 1% of the population of Northern
0:18:11 > 0:18:14Ireland...This document looks like you were preparing to do an awful
0:18:14 > 0:18:20lot more. I would ask you where we go from here. Is this document the
0:18:20 > 0:18:25basis for future talks, Jerry Kelly? You can't look at and close down the
0:18:25 > 0:18:28negotiations, which is what was done, and we didn't know they were
0:18:28 > 0:18:32going to do it, the British and Irish governments didn't know, they
0:18:32 > 0:18:38walked out in the middle of what was a meeting.
0:18:38 > 0:18:46OLD TALK AT ONCE. You walked out in November.Martin
0:18:46 > 0:18:51McGuinness walked out last January. I'm just stating that is what they
0:18:51 > 0:18:58did.And others walked out, including Sinn Fein.What was your
0:18:58 > 0:19:05question?What is the plan B?You can't walk out one day and then have
0:19:05 > 0:19:13the cheek the
0:19:13 > 0:19:16the cheek the next day, within hours, to say, we need to go back
0:19:16 > 0:19:18into talks, when everybody knows what the issues are, when we spent
0:19:18 > 0:19:2113 months trying to work it out, when we made huge progress and then
0:19:21 > 0:19:24the DUP, for their own reasons, were unwilling to sell it, or they
0:19:24 > 0:19:31couldn't sell it.Is Sinn Fein still prepared to go into talks?Where we
0:19:31 > 0:19:35go from here is, because the DUP are refusing on three issues, not just
0:19:35 > 0:19:40the Irish language, give people their rights, the two governments
0:19:40 > 0:19:42were signatories to the Irish language act in the St Andrews
0:19:42 > 0:19:48agreement as well, and the legacy issues which the British government
0:19:48 > 0:19:55has had sitting there for two years, we need to pick that up butwe don't
0:19:55 > 0:19:58have a lot of time, so you'd like to see Westminster dealing with these
0:19:58 > 0:20:09issues?I was in any of those sectors, the
0:20:09 > 0:20:11sectors, the Irish language or marriage equality, I'd want that
0:20:11 > 0:20:15moved ahead. The two governments have the responsibility, in the
0:20:15 > 0:20:24absence of the executive. I want the executive up.But if that doesn't
0:20:24 > 0:20:27happen, you are saying that the two governments take these issues to
0:20:27 > 0:20:33Westminster and legislate there?I'm saying, set up the British Irish
0:20:33 > 0:20:39intergovernmental conference and, yes, sort out these things. The two
0:20:39 > 0:20:43governments should be involved. Legislate through Westminster? Is
0:20:43 > 0:20:47that something you could agree with? Take it out of your hands and then
0:20:47 > 0:20:50there is plausible deniability all-round and then all of the
0:20:50 > 0:20:55problems you had with the document the British equitable deal with at
0:20:55 > 0:20:57Westminster and you could look your supporters in the eye and say, not
0:20:57 > 0:21:05my fault.No, it's not the right thing to do. The right thing is to
0:21:05 > 0:21:10take responsibility.What does that mean?The Irish government don't sit
0:21:10 > 0:21:15at Westminster, so any government taken forward for Northern Ireland
0:21:15 > 0:21:18will be by the government of northern Lee the United Kingdom.Do
0:21:18 > 0:21:22you mean by legislating at Westminster or getting back into
0:21:22 > 0:21:26talks with Sinn Fein and sorting the matter out and getting devolution
0:21:26 > 0:21:35back up and running? Why did you walk away from the talks?If they
0:21:35 > 0:21:38hadn't walked out, we could have been sorting this out. That's what
0:21:38 > 0:21:49that was about.You're not going to cut yourself out of this one.Hold
0:21:49 > 0:21:53on,...We said the talks, as far as these proposals were concerned, we
0:21:53 > 0:21:56didn't feel there was going to be a meeting of minds.And what happens
0:21:56 > 0:22:05now?In terms of where we are, we have set, and I repeat this, and
0:22:05 > 0:22:11while we are sitting here tonight, talking about this, I can tell you
0:22:11 > 0:22:14that back home in my constituency, what people are really interested in
0:22:14 > 0:22:22is waiting lists and hospitals.And I appreciate this.We know it, so I
0:22:22 > 0:22:27don't want to waste time. People don't disagree.I don't think we
0:22:27 > 0:22:31waste time when we talk about the issues that really matter to people.
0:22:31 > 0:22:37This also matters.You withdraw your preconditions and let's form the
0:22:37 > 0:22:43executive today, and we can continue in parallel with taking the
0:22:43 > 0:22:48decisions that help ordinary people who are waiting for operations,
0:22:48 > 0:22:54school principals struggling...You have made this point.Let's form the
0:22:54 > 0:22:58executive and continue to try and work out these issues.I appreciate
0:22:58 > 0:23:02the frank exchange of views, and I know we have tried to cover a lot of
0:23:02 > 0:23:06ground. Should people be optimistic that there is a glimmer of hope,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10that these issues would seem intractable can be sorted out
0:23:10 > 0:23:15quickly?In my opinion there was not an intractable problem that we've
0:23:15 > 0:23:22sold problems than this. If you wanted to move this forward, the
0:23:22 > 0:23:26first thing, the DUP said they want to be involved, it's about legacy.
0:23:26 > 0:23:32Give the money to the Lord Chief Justice and there are victims who
0:23:32 > 0:23:36have been waiting 45, 46 years, give them some respect, give the money to
0:23:36 > 0:23:40the Lord Chief Justice, that's nothing to do with politics.That
0:23:40 > 0:23:47isn't in this document.That is because we were involved in
0:23:47 > 0:23:52discussions with the British government.And you agreed that?
0:23:52 > 0:23:56There is a bit of sarcasm coming from the right.And you agreed it
0:23:56 > 0:24:01with the British government is to mockyes. The consultation was going
0:24:01 > 0:24:05to be put out and the money was going to be released to the Lord
0:24:05 > 0:24:13Chief Justice.When was it agreed? Alongside that.Why can't that
0:24:13 > 0:24:18go-ahead?It should.Even though this agreement has fallen?It should
0:24:18 > 0:24:28go ahead. If that issue of legacy payments has been agreed by Sinn
0:24:28 > 0:24:37Fein and the British government. Yes.We are
0:24:37 > 0:24:39Yes.We are happy...We believe victims and survivors should now
0:24:39 > 0:24:44have their say and it is long past time when they should have their say
0:24:44 > 0:24:48on those proposals, but as for handing over money to one element of
0:24:48 > 0:24:52the legacy problem, we don't believe...The Lord Chief Justice
0:24:52 > 0:24:56has asked for this money. I trust him to be an impartial legal figure
0:24:56 > 0:25:00who does what is right for everybody in Northern Ireland?It isn't that
0:25:00 > 0:25:07we don't trust the Lord Chief Justice.So you couldn't disagree
0:25:07 > 0:25:12with his call for the money.We are saying there is also money needed to
0:25:12 > 0:25:14investigate the unsolved murders for thousands of innocent people while
0:25:14 > 0:25:19waiting and waiting for their cases to be dealt with and, because they
0:25:19 > 0:25:23haven't gone for an inquest, they are not getting priority, and that's
0:25:23 > 0:25:27just not fair.To be clear, and we are ticking extra time, because this
0:25:27 > 0:25:33is an interesting development.A moment ago, Jeffrey said he didn't
0:25:33 > 0:25:36know there were negotiations going on about the legacy, and now he has
0:25:36 > 0:25:41given the opinions on it.In queue is to know, let's take a minute or
0:25:41 > 0:25:44two more, because we've got somewhere I didn't think we'd get
0:25:44 > 0:25:52to. -- I am curious to know. Did the DUP know that that issue had been
0:25:52 > 0:25:54agreed between Sinn Fein and the British government?We certainly
0:25:54 > 0:26:02didn't. I am our party's representative on legacy issues. I
0:26:02 > 0:26:06can tell you now that I am certainly not aware of, and was not aware of,
0:26:06 > 0:26:13the government agreed with Sinn Fein they were going to hand over money.
0:26:13 > 0:26:17To be absolutely clear, Jerry Kelly has told me that's been agreed, and
0:26:17 > 0:26:21I have to take his word, but you are now telling me, as the DUP's person
0:26:21 > 0:26:27on this, that you didn't know. Absolutely.Is that a surprise to
0:26:27 > 0:26:37you? Is a surprise it can say that? -- a surprise to hear him say that.
0:26:37 > 0:26:45As I understand it, and you may contradict this, I understood that
0:26:45 > 0:26:50members of the officer board of the DUP said, maybe including yourself,
0:26:50 > 0:26:54that you didn't know how far this agreement had gone. And therefore
0:26:54 > 0:26:57you didn't know about this as well. Is that right? So now you are
0:26:57 > 0:27:04talking as if you were completely... You've been left out in the cold by
0:27:04 > 0:27:10your own party.You are a version of events from Jerry Kelly. I will
0:27:10 > 0:27:15speak on this issue for the DUP, but I can tell you categorically that
0:27:15 > 0:27:19the DUP has not been involved in discussions, or been party...Here
0:27:19 > 0:27:28is what happened the macroexplain it to us.It was what happened.
0:27:28 > 0:27:36Arlene Foster was very upset she was getting back the legacy money.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Jeffrey Donaldson has now told us they were holding back that money. I
0:27:39 > 0:27:46said, OK, well, what is it precisely? I was being told by the
0:27:46 > 0:27:52negotiators they had no problem with that. And one of the other
0:27:52 > 0:27:57negotiators, who was clearly more in charge, said, hold on, we have a
0:27:57 > 0:28:06position. Explain that the officer board didn't know what was going on?
0:28:06 > 0:28:09I presume parts of the board, certainly the lead of your party,
0:28:09 > 0:28:14was involved in the negotiations.
0:28:14 > 0:28:19What is communication like at senior levels in the DUP?Excellent, in
0:28:19 > 0:28:24relation to the legacy inquest and funding and legacy proposals, no
0:28:24 > 0:28:28such proposal was put to me. I most certainly am not aware of any
0:28:28 > 0:28:33agreement reached between Sinn Fein and the UK Government to hand over
0:28:33 > 0:28:36money for legacies.This is interesting, he did not know about
0:28:36 > 0:28:42that. Gerry was surprised you did not know that, it seems that Gregory
0:28:42 > 0:28:45Campbell did not know some of the details of this agreement last week
0:28:45 > 0:28:49either. Where there is some negotiators trying to go ahead and
0:28:49 > 0:28:52reach compromises with Sinn Fein and other senior members of the party
0:28:52 > 0:28:57were not told about that?I do not believe that is the case.Could you
0:28:57 > 0:29:01understand why people may think that?Based on what Jerry is telling
0:29:01 > 0:29:05you...You say that you do not believe him, and what he just said
0:29:05 > 0:29:13tonight.I have heard his version of events. I am telling you that in the
0:29:13 > 0:29:17meetings of the party officers that I attended, that this issue did not
0:29:17 > 0:29:25arise.Did you attend them all?I was there at all of them.Will you
0:29:25 > 0:29:30phone after this to see how you were blindsided?I don't think I need to.
0:29:30 > 0:29:35We are hearing what Sinn Fein were saying but we will be talking to the
0:29:35 > 0:29:39government at Westminster about it. You would be pretty annoyed with the
0:29:39 > 0:29:42government if you discovered what Gerry Kelly was saying and you did
0:29:42 > 0:29:51not know?Once again the DUP are refusing the rights of victims...A
0:29:51 > 0:29:55final question, we have gone way over on this. Do you have a document
0:29:55 > 0:29:59that clearly shows the issue of legacy payments has been agreed
0:29:59 > 0:30:07between Sinn Fein and the British government? I can prove it. Will you
0:30:07 > 0:30:10bring it into the public domain? Otherwise we just had to take your
0:30:10 > 0:30:15word for it.You can take my word for it. I understand, but it is not
0:30:15 > 0:30:21my choice. It is not my decision. Therefore I will not commit to put
0:30:21 > 0:30:24it out there.Unfortunately there we just have to take your word for it
0:30:24 > 0:30:28and it is your word against Sir Jeffrey's.Fair enough, but I have
0:30:28 > 0:30:34not discussed this with the leadership. I'm not going to give a
0:30:34 > 0:30:36commitment on this programme.It is quite a development tonight, that is
0:30:36 > 0:30:46for sure.Just to be clear, to say that the DUP, or Jeffrey, did not
0:30:46 > 0:30:50know about this, is erroneous.An intriguing conversation. Thank you
0:30:50 > 0:30:55to both of you for joining us and thank you for your frank exchange of
0:30:55 > 0:30:59views. I suspect that this is an issue that we will come back to very
0:30:59 > 0:31:03soon. And your phone may be beeping overnight, I would have thought
0:31:03 > 0:31:08people would want to talk to you! We will leave it there. We are not
0:31:08 > 0:31:12going to hear Shane Harrison's report from Dublin on the reform of
0:31:12 > 0:31:15the eighth amendment for obvious reasons. I think you would
0:31:15 > 0:31:19understand that. Of course, we will endeavour to bring it to you as soon
0:31:19 > 0:31:21as we can.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24Now a change of guard in Commentators' Corner tonight -
0:31:24 > 0:31:27and I'm joined by the News Letter's Political Editor, Sam McBride,
0:31:27 > 0:31:28and Allison Morris from the Irish News...
0:31:28 > 0:31:31Welcome, we don't have a lot of time. That was very interesting.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35First, did you see that coming? Did you know that there had been an
0:31:35 > 0:31:40agreement between Sinn Fein and the British comment on legacy?I do
0:31:40 > 0:31:47know, the 150,000,004 inquest a completely different part of money.
0:31:47 > 0:31:52Jeffrey was trying to combine the two, they are very separate. It is
0:31:52 > 0:31:55interesting, what we were told first of all is that it wasn't a deal or a
0:31:55 > 0:31:59draft but now what we are being told is that there was a side deal in
0:31:59 > 0:32:02relation to legacy between the British government and Sinn Fein,
0:32:02 > 0:32:06which would be good news if that was the case for victims waiting on
0:32:06 > 0:32:10inquests but it also shows the distrust between the two parties
0:32:10 > 0:32:18within those talks, that it is greater than we thought. What
0:32:24 > 0:32:26exactly was going on behind closed doors, we had Gregory Campbell
0:32:26 > 0:32:29denied that he was ever dealing in the first place and Arlene Foster is
0:32:29 > 0:32:32still denying that there was a deal and Jeffrey Donaldson saying that
0:32:32 > 0:32:34they had agreed to most of the proposals. I am proud of the fact
0:32:34 > 0:32:37that he helped to write it, even though we were told two days before
0:32:37 > 0:32:40that it did not exist.I don't know if you -- what you make of what
0:32:40 > 0:32:44happened in the studio this evening but it moves things on
0:32:44 > 0:32:47significantly?The possibility of this being a side deal, as Alison
0:32:47 > 0:32:51has suggested, that will not be very reassuring to DUP supporters, if
0:32:51 > 0:32:56that is what has happened. There could be plausible deniability, if
0:32:56 > 0:33:02there were people in the DUP who did know about that. It becomes a
0:33:02 > 0:33:04crucial issue. Jeffrey Donaldson should have known about it, that is
0:33:04 > 0:33:09his area but what we did learn earlier in the discussion which is
0:33:09 > 0:33:16very significant, Jeffrey Donaldson basically saying that Irish will be
0:33:16 > 0:33:18an official language in Northern Ireland. Do they support an Irish
0:33:18 > 0:33:23language act, will they accept it or not? Arlene Foster saying that she
0:33:23 > 0:33:26would not contemplate it. It seems to me that they will accept the
0:33:26 > 0:33:29heart of what would be an Irish language act but it will be called
0:33:29 > 0:33:34that and there will be other bells and whistles to cover over what has
0:33:34 > 0:33:38actually happened.Where do we go on the issue of proving all of this?
0:33:38 > 0:33:44Gerry Kelly was very clear. He explained it, as he sees it. He says
0:33:44 > 0:33:49he has proved, it is accurate, what he said tonight. Jeffrey says he
0:33:49 > 0:33:53knows nothing about it but Gerry says he will not put evidence in the
0:33:53 > 0:33:56public domain. There will be a lot of questions asked over the next few
0:33:56 > 0:34:02days!We will have to wait and see whether the aim and marry website
0:34:02 > 0:34:08can produce evidence not! That it is clear that the agreements were a lot
0:34:08 > 0:34:12further on than what we were led to believe by the DUP. Clearly we are
0:34:12 > 0:34:22at a more advanced stage and what does surprise me is that the DUP
0:34:22 > 0:34:26will tell them this is going to happen and are doubling down on the
0:34:26 > 0:34:31lie that there was no deal.And there was a hint that Westminster
0:34:31 > 0:34:35need to take responsibility for this. Westminster to legislate for
0:34:35 > 0:34:39the languages and on the issue of legacy and other issues like
0:34:39 > 0:34:46same-sex marriage?You can understand, whether it is people
0:34:46 > 0:34:50arguing for Irish language, it is not so attractive potentially to
0:34:50 > 0:34:56some of those people if it breaks with the fact Parliament does not
0:34:56 > 0:34:59legislate on devolved matters.Thank you very much.
0:34:59 > 0:35:01That's it from The View for this week.
0:35:01 > 0:35:03Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC1.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07Finally tonight, we know in this part of the world anthems can be
0:35:07 > 0:35:09seen as controversial, divisive - even inflammatory.
0:35:09 > 0:35:10But sometimes anthems are just really, really bad.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Ladies and gentlemen, I give you popstar Fergie at this
0:35:13 > 0:35:14week's NBA All-Star game in Los Angeles.
0:35:14 > 0:35:22Good night...
0:35:30 > 0:35:34# O Say does that star-spangled
0:35:34 > 0:35:42banner yet wave
0:35:43 > 0:35:51(POWERFULLY) # O'er the land of the free
0:35:59 > 0:36:07and the home of the brave? #