0:00:01 > 0:00:04As the fallout continues from dramatic claims about political
0:00:04 > 0:00:09transparency from Northern Ireland's most senior civil servant.
0:00:09 > 0:00:17We ask: have our politicians been keeping us in the dark?
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Tonight on The View: What price transparency?
0:00:34 > 0:00:37I'll be asking MLAs past and present if there really was a culture
0:00:37 > 0:00:41of secrecy at Stormont.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Gareth Gordon has been assessing the odds of a return
0:00:44 > 0:00:46to a devolved Assembly.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50I don't know. I wouldn't want to be the bookmaker to take the odds on
0:00:50 > 0:01:00that at the moment, now.It's a cert. You could put your house on.
0:01:00 > 0:01:02We'll hear from Shane Harrison, who's been running his eye over
0:01:02 > 0:01:05the form guide in Washington ahead of St Patrick's Day.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07And just to prove there's nothing new in politics,
0:01:07 > 0:01:08we unearthed one of the classics.
0:01:08 > 0:01:13So what is your problem?Well, the minutes aren't written yet.I see.
0:01:13 > 0:01:18So, what should I do?Write them, dear man.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21And finally, with the inside track on all of the above,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23columnists Alex Kane and Fionnuala O'Connor are in their
0:01:23 > 0:01:29very own winners' enclosure.
0:01:29 > 0:01:30Hello.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32Not keeping records of meetings between Stormont Ministers,
0:01:32 > 0:01:36their advisers and officials was this week described by the Head
0:01:36 > 0:01:43of the Civil Service as "safer".
0:01:43 > 0:01:45The reaction to David Sterling's comments disputes that.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47So where does that leave the reputation of Stormont,
0:01:47 > 0:01:49in the shape of both the former political incumbents,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51and the senior civil servants who now run the place?
0:01:51 > 0:01:54With me to reflect on Mr Sterling's comments are two former Ministers -
0:01:54 > 0:01:57the Ulster Unionist Danny Kennedy and the Independent Claire Sugden,
0:01:57 > 0:01:59and the former Sinn Fein chair of the Assembly's Finance Committee,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03Daithi McKay.
0:02:03 > 0:02:08Thank you for joining us tonight. Claire Sugden did David Sterling's
0:02:08 > 0:02:10comments about an absence of note-taking come as a surprise to
0:02:10 > 0:02:14you?Yes because certainly the department was always keen to be in
0:02:14 > 0:02:19the room with me and take notes. Some circumstances I nearly had
0:02:19 > 0:02:23civil service on top of me. To be honest, I felt that almost ruined
0:02:23 > 0:02:29the dynamic in meetings I had. I think again David needs to clarify
0:02:29 > 0:02:32his comments because there's some situations where it's maybe not
0:02:32 > 0:02:35appropriate to have as many civil service in the room as would want to
0:02:35 > 0:02:40be.Why would that be the case in For example, as Justice Minister I
0:02:40 > 0:02:43was meeting with victims and they were telling me personal stories. To
0:02:43 > 0:02:46have ten people sitting behind me was intimidating.
0:02:46 > 0:02:52I had a note taker at the least in the room with me to give me cover or
0:02:52 > 0:02:56something was said or I said outside the room we had a record of that.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Was there an occasion when a senior civil service said to you, minister,
0:02:59 > 0:03:03it might be bet are for all sorts of reasons not to put everything down
0:03:03 > 0:03:09on-the-record because the last thing you would want would be an FoI
0:03:09 > 0:03:12request or inquiry application which would then reveal something that you
0:03:12 > 0:03:16might not want to be in the public domain. Did that conversation ever
0:03:16 > 0:03:21happen?Not a senior civil service, no, but a low grade civil service
0:03:21 > 0:03:26into my ministry reminded me that any comment I made in submission
0:03:26 > 0:03:31papers or anything I said would be subject to FoI. I don't think it was
0:03:31 > 0:03:35to encourage any secrecy or lack of transparency. If anything it
0:03:35 > 0:03:39encouraged me to be more thoughtful about what I put down in those
0:03:39 > 0:03:44submission papers. We have to be mindful around this, the debate on
0:03:44 > 0:03:49the FoI when requests are asked for they are very much asked about
0:03:49 > 0:03:53specific pieces of information. Policy a long development process. A
0:03:53 > 0:03:57piece of paper can be taken out of context in terms of the wider debate
0:03:57 > 0:04:00around that. . Reflecting on it now. Do you think there was ever a
0:04:00 > 0:04:06circumstance when you as a minister, in a meeting, that you knew was
0:04:06 > 0:04:08being noted, held back from saying something which you didn't want
0:04:08 > 0:04:12subsequently to be on the public record? No. I wouldn't have felt
0:04:12 > 0:04:17that I held back in anyway. I didn't really feel I needed to. I had
0:04:17 > 0:04:23nothing to hide Serge as a minister. I uphold that value of transparency.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28No, certainly, I'm not perfect. I rely on my civil servants to give me
0:04:28 > 0:04:30information and my perspectives may not have been correct. I wouldn't
0:04:30 > 0:04:32have say everything floating around in my head.
0:04:32 > 0:04:37I was mindful about what I was trying to do. That was trying to do
0:04:37 > 0:04:40a good job and be as diligent as I could be not to discourage
0:04:40 > 0:04:49transparency.David Sterling said that in his experience it was fairly
0:04:49 > 0:04:53common across all departments that notes would not necessarily be
0:04:53 > 0:04:57taken. So that they were not recoverable at a later stage. Was
0:04:57 > 0:05:01that a surprise to you to hear?It was an interesting contribution. My
0:05:01 > 0:05:06initial take on it was that David was trying to create a distraction
0:05:06 > 0:05:11to ensure the focus of the session, in terms of his involvement with
0:05:11 > 0:05:17RHI, that wassic taen away. But I think I agree that he has to clarify
0:05:17 > 0:05:23what he means. He said a culture developed. Was it by ministerial
0:05:23 > 0:05:28direction or was it the senior civil servants acting in response to the
0:05:28 > 0:05:31political situation? This is an important point because the public
0:05:31 > 0:05:35has to remember as well that the performance of ministers doesn't
0:05:35 > 0:05:40only reflect on the ministers and their parties but the senior civil
0:05:40 > 0:05:43servants and their future career prospects. It may be the case that
0:05:43 > 0:05:46civil servants took it upon themselves to do this rather than
0:05:46 > 0:05:50the politicians. We don't not know at this stage.What about Sinn
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Fein's involvement. David Sterling said it was common across all
0:05:53 > 0:05:57departments, in the evidence he was giving he said it was particularly
0:05:57 > 0:06:02the case with the two main parties. The DUP and Sinn Fein?His comments
0:06:02 > 0:06:05are aimed towards the two main parties. I think it's important now
0:06:05 > 0:06:10that he follows through on this. The Information Commissioner is also
0:06:10 > 0:06:14wanting to hear further clarification from imhad. I don't
0:06:14 > 0:06:20think it's good enough for David to hide behind the fact there is an RHI
0:06:20 > 0:06:25inquiry going on his comments have wider ramifify cautions.s if
0:06:25 > 0:06:28ministers need to be named he needs to name them.People were surprised
0:06:28 > 0:06:34how upfront he was in the comments that he gave. If there was a
0:06:34 > 0:06:38criticism or a surprise expressed it was at the fact he was quite so
0:06:38 > 0:06:41open?Yesterday on the other hand today there have been many questions
0:06:41 > 0:06:45in regard to this. He hasn't come forward clarify.He is in America at
0:06:45 > 0:06:48the moment.Given the level of public importance on this, I think
0:06:48 > 0:06:51there is a duty on him to clarify this as soon as possible.Of course.
0:06:51 > 0:06:59He is due to appear before the RHI inquiry again in due course. If you
0:06:59 > 0:07:04were surprised, Mr Sterling made comments be quite openly this time.
0:07:04 > 0:07:08During the Finance Committee's Nama inquiry in 2015, you were the chair
0:07:08 > 0:07:12of the committee at that time, you will recall no doubt that he
0:07:12 > 0:07:15admitted civil servants, "need to be more consistent in our approach toic
0:07:15 > 0:07:19itting notes of meetings." He said it all before?He had said it before
0:07:19 > 0:07:25at that time. At that time Nama in the South were taking minutes of the
0:07:25 > 0:07:29meetings with DFP, but DFP were not taking minutes. Because there were
0:07:29 > 0:07:33so many questions about the Nama issues at that time it got lost in
0:07:33 > 0:07:36the undergrowth. He made reference to the fact that his minister at
0:07:36 > 0:07:41that time, I think it was Arlene Foster, had actually made the
0:07:41 > 0:07:43proposal that further minutes should be taken. He actually agreed with
0:07:43 > 0:07:49that. I think there is still so many questions around this, it just needs
0:07:49 > 0:07:53to be clarified before we can point the finger at anybody.It opens a
0:07:53 > 0:07:58whole can of worms. A lot of people were very surprised at what David
0:07:58 > 0:08:02Sterling had to say even though he had suggested it, it was the case in
0:08:02 > 0:08:06certain circumstances before, as we've discussed, back in November
0:08:06 > 0:08:112015. You were a minister for some time in the Executive before. Were
0:08:11 > 0:08:16you a ware of civil servants not noting minutes you were involved in
0:08:16 > 0:08:24for fear of subsequent recovery?No, my clear recollection is I neither
0:08:24 > 0:08:30sought that records would not be taken, nor did at any stage nicenor
0:08:30 > 0:08:33civil servant or any civil servant of any rank suggest to me it might
0:08:33 > 0:08:37be a good idea that people stop writing.Was it ever pointed out to
0:08:37 > 0:08:43you, as it was to Claire Sugden, you needed to be mindful of the fact
0:08:43 > 0:08:48anything you write on a paper could be recoverable under an FoI request?
0:08:48 > 0:08:54Of course. I think it's important to distinguish between any discussion
0:08:54 > 0:08:59that is are held within a meeting. But discussions are discussions,
0:08:59 > 0:09:04they are not decisions. I think when we talk about minutes I think we
0:09:04 > 0:09:10more properly describe them as records of meetings because they
0:09:10 > 0:09:16would normally reflect outcomes and actual decisions which I think is
0:09:16 > 0:09:19altogether different to having widespread discussions.Well, it's
0:09:19 > 0:09:25just interesting, if you read the civil servants guide "meeting notes
0:09:25 > 0:09:29are intended to record accurately any decisions taking or undertakings
0:09:29 > 0:09:35made by the minister." Reagreed by that "they may summarise the main
0:09:35 > 0:09:39facts and arguments used during that meeting" that's the critical point,
0:09:39 > 0:09:42isn't it?Yes. That would normally have happened through submissions
0:09:42 > 0:09:46which would have been written up and brought to the minister for his or
0:09:46 > 0:09:54her consideration. Mindful of the earlier discussion, those sub
0:09:54 > 0:10:00missions would reflect either the minister's view or, in certain
0:10:00 > 0:10:03contentious issues, an alternative view, leaving it clear for a
0:10:03 > 0:10:07minister to make the ultimate decision. So there's nothing wrong
0:10:07 > 0:10:16with that. I think the concerns that we have, that I have, with the David
0:10:16 > 0:10:22Sterling's remarks are that it strikes, or it seems to query the
0:10:22 > 0:10:27independence of the Northern Ireland Civil Service and also the openness
0:10:27 > 0:10:33and transparency of a local administration. Of course we... The
0:10:33 > 0:10:37Westminster conventions should be the one that is are followed. That
0:10:37 > 0:10:42is that whilst governments come and go, whilst politicians are
0:10:42 > 0:10:48transient, the civil servants are a constant. They have to reflect, not
0:10:48 > 0:10:55only the will of individual ministers, or even government, but a
0:10:55 > 0:11:04consistency across and an even handedness. I think the suggestion
0:11:04 > 0:11:10that David Sterling indicated certainly there may have been some
0:11:10 > 0:11:15type of control freakry at a senior level within the Executive needs
0:11:15 > 0:11:20further exploration.Claire Sugden, one former senior civil servant told
0:11:20 > 0:11:24this programme the practice was widespread and very prevalent on the
0:11:24 > 0:11:28part especially of the DUP. What do you make of that?I can only speak
0:11:28 > 0:11:33for the Department of Justice, which I will say is perhaps a
0:11:33 > 0:11:36differenclure to the other departments because it we was
0:11:36 > 0:11:41devolved later than other departments. The practices in
0:11:41 > 0:11:43Whitehall were practiced there better than in other departments. I
0:11:43 > 0:11:46didn't interfere from the DUP or Sinn Fein work in other departments.
0:11:46 > 0:11:51It wouldn't be appropriate to do that. When we came together was at
0:11:51 > 0:11:55the Executive table there were notes taken there. I think we need David
0:11:55 > 0:11:59Sterling to clarify his comments here because it's quite a sweeping
0:11:59 > 0:12:03statement to make and I'm not sure it's applicable to all meetings we
0:12:03 > 0:12:07had. As Danny has explained, it is absolutely important to take a
0:12:07 > 0:12:11record. For your own cover, more than anything else. I certainly
0:12:11 > 0:12:16wouldn't want someone I met saying toe m that I said something I
0:12:16 > 0:12:22didn't.I do say Mark, I don't agree with Daithi's earlier contribution
0:12:22 > 0:12:26that suggested that David Sterling was in some way starting another
0:12:26 > 0:12:31fire in a different part of the room to distract on any other issue
0:12:31 > 0:12:35regarding RHI. I think David Sterling is an experienced civil
0:12:35 > 0:12:43servant. A senior civil servant. The acting head of the Northern Ireland
0:12:43 > 0:12:45Civil Service, further clarification is
0:12:45 > 0:12:50required, I would stay well short of accusing him of trying to cause any
0:12:50 > 0:12:55kind of real distraction.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58It will be interesting to
0:12:58 > 0:13:02It will be interesting to see what comments or clarification he makes.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07I am sure he will dispute the suggestion you just said. He said it
0:13:07 > 0:13:13was prevalent from the two main parties, Sinn Fein has said that it
0:13:13 > 0:13:19is not the case as far as it is concerned, Mairtin O Muilleoir said
0:13:19 > 0:13:25it was claptrap, so were you aware of the DUP being involved in this?
0:13:25 > 0:13:29Do you think the former civil servant who suggested it was
0:13:29 > 0:13:37prevalent on the part of the DUP has it right?My sense of the DUP during
0:13:37 > 0:13:44my time in the Assembly is that they were defensive about issues, they
0:13:44 > 0:13:50didn't try for street processes with the office of First Minister and
0:13:50 > 0:13:56Deputy First Minister so it isn't a surprise that they haven't clarified
0:13:56 > 0:14:02their position, but there is a suggestion that freedom of
0:14:02 > 0:14:06information legislation is being interfered with because they are
0:14:06 > 0:14:10fundamental to political culture here and transparency, so what this
0:14:10 > 0:14:16flag is up for me is that the Freedom of information legislation
0:14:16 > 0:14:22needs to be strengthened.David Stirling pointed the finger at the
0:14:22 > 0:14:26two largest parties. Short of further clarification, there are
0:14:26 > 0:14:33issues to be addressed and there presumably is an opportunity for the
0:14:33 > 0:14:37civil service to get its act together in advance of Stormont
0:14:37 > 0:14:43being resumed, however unlikely that is.I think it is an issue we will
0:14:43 > 0:14:49return to. We would have liked to have been able to put these issues
0:14:49 > 0:14:54to a representative of the DUP but the party declined to take part in
0:14:54 > 0:14:59this discussion. A spokesperson said it is inappropriate that the DUP be
0:14:59 > 0:15:07asked to comment on issues that are subject to a live public inquiry.
0:15:07 > 0:15:08Thanks for now, we'll come back to you again later.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Now, a former Irish diplomat has said the British-Irish
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Inter-governmental Conference will only be brought back as a "fall
0:15:13 > 0:15:15back position" and would be a sign that Northern Ireland
0:15:15 > 0:15:17is in for a period of direct rule.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19Nationalists here and the Dublin government have called
0:15:19 > 0:15:22for the return of the body, which last met 11 years ago,
0:15:22 > 0:15:24to allow the two governments to plot a way forward
0:15:24 > 0:15:25in the absence of devolution.
0:15:25 > 0:15:30Gareth Gordon has been looking at the odds of Stormont coming back.
0:15:30 > 0:15:36For the British and Irish, the race to restart devolution in Northern
0:15:36 > 0:15:41Ireland runs without end. Just when they think they are in the final
0:15:41 > 0:15:47straight, they are dragged back to the start.My powers as Secretary of
0:15:47 > 0:15:52State for Northern are and are limited. The scope of this house to
0:15:52 > 0:15:58pass legislation on devolved issues is limited.Compared to that,
0:15:58 > 0:16:03picking a winner at Chaston seems easy. People who know about betting
0:16:03 > 0:16:09think Stormont is ably conducted.I think it's dead in the water, they
0:16:09 > 0:16:15need to bring the other parties in to help negotiate.What are the odds
0:16:15 > 0:16:23of Stormont coming back?I wouldn't take the odds on that.It's not
0:16:23 > 0:16:30something to bet your house on, it will never work with that crowd.The
0:16:30 > 0:16:35options available to Karen Bradley appear limited. Some form of light
0:16:35 > 0:16:40touch direct rule appears to be the front runner, in front of a shadow
0:16:40 > 0:16:46Assembly. A British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference seemed
0:16:46 > 0:16:52to be a safe bet although odds may have lengthened after remarks by the
0:16:52 > 0:16:58Taoiseach. An Assembly and full-blown direct rule remain
0:16:58 > 0:17:03outsiders. Whichever option Karen Bradley puts money on, someone will
0:17:03 > 0:17:11attempt to put a in her way. Let's look more closely at the options. A
0:17:11 > 0:17:15shadow Assembly would keep the political class is busy until the
0:17:15 > 0:17:20real thing comes back. It's been tried before, most notably in the
0:17:20 > 0:17:261980s. It did not end well after being dissolved by the government
0:17:26 > 0:17:33against unionist wishes.The police say 21 officers were injured, more
0:17:33 > 0:17:36than half required hospital treatment. Police in the building
0:17:36 > 0:17:42were asked by the clerk of the Assembly to clear the chamber. They
0:17:42 > 0:17:48cleared in and politicians were thrown out.It was mainly a DUP
0:17:48 > 0:17:53protest although I youthful Jeffrey Donaldson was one of two Ulster
0:17:53 > 0:18:01Unionists also evicted.I have two members of my family murdered by the
0:18:01 > 0:18:07Provos and what do you do in return for that? You throw me out of the
0:18:07 > 0:18:12forum for which I was elected.The other Ulster unionist member
0:18:12 > 0:18:20involved remembers it.I remember a police officer saying to me, do you
0:18:20 > 0:18:26want carried out or would you walk out? I walked out with two policemen
0:18:26 > 0:18:31in front and two policemen behind and they left me at the top of the
0:18:31 > 0:18:35steps with members who had been carried out and some of them didn't
0:18:35 > 0:18:43do in a very dignified way but it was an interesting experience.An
0:18:43 > 0:18:48experience missed by the SDLP and Sinn Fein, who boycotted that
0:18:48 > 0:18:54Assembly and didn't seem keen on another.The Secretary of State
0:18:54 > 0:18:59hasn't made detail available but the idea we go into a talking shop while
0:18:59 > 0:19:05there is no movement on issues which has caused the blockage is a waste
0:19:05 > 0:19:11of everybody's time.The transitional Assembly fared better.
0:19:11 > 0:19:16Its first day got off to a bad start with an unwelcome visitor called
0:19:16 > 0:19:21Michael Stone.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24Michael Stone. The then Speaker doubts the present government would
0:19:24 > 0:19:33repeat the exercise.They thought they would try this to keep the MLAs
0:19:33 > 0:19:38who were directly involved in negotiations, to keep them thinking
0:19:38 > 0:19:43of themselves as parliamentarians and they would have work to do in
0:19:43 > 0:19:47the Assembly, it would still be alive thing. I think that is a good
0:19:47 > 0:19:54idea.Nationalists want the British-Irish Intergovernmental
0:19:54 > 0:20:02Conference, last held here 11 years ago.Devolved administration is the
0:20:02 > 0:20:08number-1 objective and if they achieve that by another method, that
0:20:08 > 0:20:14is fine. I see the conference as a fallback solution, it talks go well
0:20:14 > 0:20:21then you wouldn't want to antagonise local parties, especially the DUP.
0:20:21 > 0:20:26If you had the conference it would be a sign we are battening down for
0:20:26 > 0:20:31direct rule.Whichever ever or she backs, the Secretary of State may
0:20:31 > 0:20:32find that she cannot win.
0:20:32 > 0:20:33Gareth Gordon reporting.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36Let's hear what my guests Danny Kennedy, Claire Sugden
0:20:36 > 0:20:38and Daithi McKay make of those odds for a return to Stormont.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42Daithi McKay, if you were a betting man, would you take a punt
0:20:42 > 0:20:44on the Assembly coming back any time soon?
0:20:44 > 0:20:52I don't think so. In terms of the pretend Assembly, I don't think
0:20:52 > 0:20:57Nationalists will touch that with a barge pole, as far as the main
0:20:57 > 0:21:01nationalist parties are concerned the only show in town is the
0:21:01 > 0:21:11intergovernmental conference.You have come a long way. Danny Kennedy,
0:21:11 > 0:21:15will you be pushing for a pretend Assembly?I'm still trying to come
0:21:15 > 0:21:21to terms with the crowd by Daithi McKay about John Tait. I think what
0:21:21 > 0:21:31is more likely is more negotiations, I think this suggestion I would have
0:21:31 > 0:21:36is that they be made multiparty and not just to parties because that
0:21:36 > 0:21:43would lend some difference to it and it might create a better atmosphere.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48You were optimistic that the process can be reinvigorated sooner rather
0:21:48 > 0:21:55than later although it ended in a complete shambles a few weeks ago.I
0:21:55 > 0:22:00think there will be one more attempt by the two governments to achieve
0:22:00 > 0:22:07that, whether or not it is in the two largest parties' interests to
0:22:07 > 0:22:11have those negotiations, to widen them out to other parties or stay
0:22:11 > 0:22:17where they are with the Westminster influence of the DUP and the
0:22:17 > 0:22:23prospect of an Irish election for Sinn Fein.Claire Sundin, do you
0:22:23 > 0:22:30think the people will stand for some kind of transitional shadow
0:22:30 > 0:22:35Assembly? They want people to get on with their job or clear off and find
0:22:35 > 0:22:42another job.I think anything short of an executive and the Assembly,
0:22:42 > 0:22:49anything else would normalise the situation and allow the other actors
0:22:49 > 0:22:51involved, namely the British government in terms of their
0:22:51 > 0:22:57interest around Brexit, to let Northern Ireland to go on this way.
0:22:57 > 0:23:03People speak to me every day about how frustrated the art that
0:23:03 > 0:23:08institutions are not running because it affects them day-to-day so I
0:23:08 > 0:23:13worry this is another stopgap so they can get on with the other
0:23:13 > 0:23:17politics distracting them, and perhaps now that the budget has been
0:23:17 > 0:23:22passed at Westminster, maybe there is a chance for talks because it
0:23:22 > 0:23:28means the DUP have had an input into a budget so maybe now they might get
0:23:28 > 0:23:35back to talking.We will find out in due course if you are onto
0:23:35 > 0:23:37something. Thank you all for joining us.
0:23:37 > 0:23:39A St Patrick's Day reception is taking place
0:23:39 > 0:23:41in the White House this evening.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43Earlier the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, met Donald Trump for the traditional
0:23:43 > 0:23:45shamrock ceremony in the Oval Office.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47So will a trip across the pond help improve relations
0:23:47 > 0:23:49between the parties after last month's failed negotiations?
0:23:49 > 0:23:54Shane Harrison is in Washington for us this evening.
0:23:54 > 0:24:00What's happening as we speak, then, Shane?
0:24:00 > 0:24:06The Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has just left the White House after
0:24:06 > 0:24:10presenting Donald Trump with the traditional bowl of shamrock. There
0:24:10 > 0:24:16is a reception on going, not present are the current leaders and deputy
0:24:16 > 0:24:23leaders of Sinn Fein or the DUP but Gerry Adams, the former Sinn Fein
0:24:23 > 0:24:31leader, and Ian Paisley, the DUP MP for North Antrim. The two men met
0:24:31 > 0:24:35earlier, they discussed our hardboard and Brexit and the
0:24:35 > 0:24:40American president said he would like to visit Ireland soon and that
0:24:40 > 0:24:47he had a great property there. The Doon Bay golf club.And that golf
0:24:47 > 0:24:53club and the association with Donald Trump and Leo Varadkar now causing a
0:24:53 > 0:24:58bit of a difficulty for Mr Rudd cart because of previous contacts he had
0:24:58 > 0:25:05with the now president a couple of years ago.Leo Varadkar surprised
0:25:05 > 0:25:11many people in his speech at Capitol Hill when he went off script as if
0:25:11 > 0:25:15his sudden memory about a previous contact with Donald Trump had come
0:25:15 > 0:25:22to him and he remembered that four years ago he was in London for R&B
0:25:22 > 0:25:26weekend when Ireland played England and he got a phone call from someone
0:25:26 > 0:25:32saying Donald Trump wanted to talk to him about planning permission, to
0:25:32 > 0:25:38object to planning permission for up wind farm. Leo Varadkar said he
0:25:38 > 0:25:44contacted Clare county council and the wind farm was refused. He says
0:25:44 > 0:25:49he wasn't responsible for that bit of Donald Trump wants to give him
0:25:49 > 0:25:54credit, he will accept that. Clare county council say they have no
0:25:54 > 0:26:01record of Leo Varadkar's intervention.What about the
0:26:01 > 0:26:08appointment of a new US peace envoy? There had been speculation that
0:26:08 > 0:26:16perhaps to Donald Trump would announce the appointment of at UN
0:26:16 > 0:26:22special envoy. He didn't seem that keen on it, American encouragement
0:26:22 > 0:26:29but no need for an honest broker. This was an issue I spoke too with
0:26:29 > 0:26:33Congressman Richie Neal, who was a Democrat and friend of Ireland, and
0:26:33 > 0:26:41I asked where we stood with regard to this.In September I spoke to the
0:26:41 > 0:26:45president who indicated to me he intended Philippe to do that and
0:26:45 > 0:26:51later General Kelly confirmed they intended to do that. There has been
0:26:51 > 0:26:54a delay with the process but I understand they renewed their
0:26:54 > 0:27:02interest and expect to go forward. When do we expect an announcement?
0:27:02 > 0:27:08The White House say every day is a challenge, they seem to start with
0:27:08 > 0:27:14intentions but get derailed by another issue.Might the fact that
0:27:14 > 0:27:21Rex Tillerson is no longer Secretary of State complicate it?He confirmed
0:27:21 > 0:27:24that it was the Trump Administration's position that they
0:27:24 > 0:27:31would appoint an envoy.Leo Varadkar it didn't seem too keen on envoy, he
0:27:31 > 0:27:34said he was looking for encouragement but not an honest
0:27:34 > 0:27:42broker.There might be an argument that suggests differences between
0:27:42 > 0:27:46the parties now are relatively small compared to what they were 25 years
0:27:46 > 0:27:53ago so he might be saying that nurturing might be what they are
0:27:53 > 0:27:58interested in, at the same time I think getting those institutions up
0:27:58 > 0:28:05and running in a representative democracy are critical.Who does
0:28:05 > 0:28:11Irish America blame for this impasse?Irish America would
0:28:11 > 0:28:15indicate the DUP is responsible for the delay and I think Irish America
0:28:15 > 0:28:20play an important role in offering dimension to the success of the Good
0:28:20 > 0:28:23Friday Agreement.
0:28:23 > 0:28:29What happens over the neck couple of days?The Taoiseach will meet the US
0:28:29 > 0:28:33Vice-President Mike Pence there is Irish media interest in that. Mike
0:28:33 > 0:28:39Pence is not noted for his support of gay rights. Leo Varadkar has been
0:28:39 > 0:28:42referencing his support for gay rights, for same-sex marriage. There
0:28:42 > 0:28:46is a lot of interest in that. Later on in the day he will head to New
0:28:46 > 0:28:52York where of course there is the big
0:28:52 > 0:28:58St Patrick parade on Saturday.. You very much .thank indeed.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00Let's hear from tonight's commentators, Fionnuala
0:29:00 > 0:29:02O'Connor and Alex Kane.
0:29:02 > 0:29:07Welcome to you both. Good to have you back. Let's talk about
0:29:07 > 0:29:14transparency in government first of all. Fionnuala, how big an issue is
0:29:14 > 0:29:17it that Davidster Sterling said what had he said at the RHI inquiry?It
0:29:17 > 0:29:24seems to be a pretty big issue thchl is the head of the civil certificate
0:29:24 > 0:29:27advice behaving in a way that poses as many questions about civil
0:29:27 > 0:29:30servants as it does about politicians. That is an easy
0:29:30 > 0:29:35statement for him to make when he suggests that the two main parties
0:29:35 > 0:29:40were involved with no way of... The two main parties suggested this
0:29:40 > 0:29:46policy if they didn't actually enforce it of discouraging minutes.
0:29:46 > 0:29:52He didn't actually say - they said you must do this. He suggested a
0:29:52 > 0:29:57culture, I think that was the way he put. It which leaves you to suppose
0:29:57 > 0:30:00that civil servants decided off their own bat that this was a way to
0:30:00 > 0:30:05please the ministers. That they would not go for minutes. Really,
0:30:05 > 0:30:09that's a dreadful, very uncivil servant position to take.It could
0:30:09 > 0:30:13equally be the case that it was the ministers who decided that that's
0:30:13 > 0:30:19the road they wanted to go down and prevailed upon the civil servants
0:30:19 > 0:30:27to.Civil servants are supposed to be masters and mistresses of clear
0:30:27 > 0:30:32and logical pros. This was an owe bake thing to say. It was also a
0:30:32 > 0:30:36fairly shocking thing to say at the moment we are told repeatedly that
0:30:36 > 0:30:39civil servants are carrying government. That we are lucky to
0:30:39 > 0:30:44have them carrying government in lieu of the politicians. I was taken
0:30:44 > 0:30:50by the suggestion that might just have been an intended as distraction
0:30:50 > 0:30:55from the RHI inquiry, from David Sterling's role in the RHI scheme.
0:30:55 > 0:31:01It's a theory he floated. No evidence to suggest -What a weird
0:31:01 > 0:31:05thing for a civil servant to be doing.The former senior civil
0:31:05 > 0:31:09servant who we spoke to who said it was indeed pretty prevalent
0:31:09 > 0:31:13particularly on the part of the DUP told us it's got a lot worse in
0:31:13 > 0:31:18recent years. FoI began when the government's position was to give
0:31:18 > 0:31:22information. That turned around into trying to not give the information
0:31:22 > 0:31:26to members of the public.What we don't know for certain is how long
0:31:26 > 0:31:31it's been going on. Certainly the information seems to be that SDLUP,
0:31:31 > 0:31:34and Alliance ministers are saying they had no experience of it. They
0:31:34 > 0:31:39didn't understand this. Did it happen in 2016 when the DUP and Sinn
0:31:39 > 0:31:44Fein cut their own deal.Obviously not. In the Finance Committee
0:31:44 > 0:31:49inquiry into Nama in November 2015 David Sterling was then telling
0:31:49 > 0:31:55Daithi McKay was a problem and they needed to stop doing that.I accept
0:31:55 > 0:31:58that. It the doesn't seem to have changed. The most extraordinary
0:31:58 > 0:32:03thing about Sterling's comment was that this seems to have been done to
0:32:03 > 0:32:07spare the blushes of the Sinn Fein and the DUP. That will they might be
0:32:07 > 0:32:11doing or making unpopular decisions. Thinking the unthinkable.Given the
0:32:11 > 0:32:14timing of this, Mark, two weeks after Sinn Fein and the DUP falling
0:32:14 > 0:32:18about over pieces of paper which ended up being leaked. This man now
0:32:18 > 0:32:24saying - we are keeping touch away. . The whole idea is consist sent i
0:32:24 > 0:32:31and continuity. We record this, but won't bother with this. Say a new
0:32:31 > 0:32:34minister comes in or disagreements with the parties you need records.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37If it will embarst ration a minister further down-the-line, tough, that
0:32:37 > 0:32:44is what politics is.Let us tie it into the other conversation about
0:32:44 > 0:32:46whether or not transition/shadow Assembly could be in the offing
0:32:46 > 0:32:49sooner rather than later. If you were a betting woman, would you take
0:32:49 > 0:32:56a punt on that?Oh, not for a minute. It ties together in an odd
0:32:56 > 0:32:59way, when you think of it. The suggestion is that they we have to
0:32:59 > 0:33:03have the Assembly back because civil servants should not be left to run
0:33:03 > 0:33:07government because this isn't right. This isn't democratic. Meanwhile we
0:33:07 > 0:33:11get this intervention by a civil servants which makes us think, are
0:33:11 > 0:33:15we so sure about the civil service? What I do think is absolutely
0:33:15 > 0:33:21unlikely is that there would be any nationalist buy into this at all. As
0:33:21 > 0:33:25again Daithi McKay said. Who would will go back to that? This is
0:33:25 > 0:33:28pre-Good Friday Agreement proposition. No Executive, an
0:33:28 > 0:33:33Assembly that is a talking shop. Final thought on that. Nationalists
0:33:33 > 0:33:36won't wear it, AlexI don't think anybody will wear it. The public
0:33:36 > 0:33:43won't wear it. A real Assembly that doesn't work. Even bring in a
0:33:43 > 0:33:46pretend, that is crazy stuff.We will leave it there. Thank you both
0:33:46 > 0:33:50very much.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52That's it from The View for this week.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35am, here on BBC One.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57But we leave you tonight with the observations of one
0:33:57 > 0:34:00of Britain's finest civil servants on what should - and should not -
0:34:00 > 0:34:01be a matter of public record.
0:34:01 > 0:34:02Good night.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05What is your problem?Well, the minutes aren't written yet.I see.
0:34:05 > 0:34:12So what should I do?Write them, dear man.The problem is, the Prime
0:34:12 > 0:34:15Minister did try to suppress the chapter, didn't he?I don't know,
0:34:15 > 0:34:20did he?Didn't he, don't you remember?What I remember is
0:34:20 > 0:34:25irrelevant Bernard. If the minutes don't say he did, he didn't.You
0:34:25 > 0:34:29want me to fallify the minutes.I want nothing of the sort. It's up to
0:34:29 > 0:34:34you Bernard, what do you want?I want to have a clear conscience.A
0:34:34 > 0:34:39clear conscience.Yes.When did you acquire this taste for luxuries? The
0:34:39 > 0:34:45purpose of minutes is not to record events it's to protect people.You
0:34:45 > 0:34:48do not take notes if the Prime Minister says something he did not
0:34:48 > 0:34:51mean to say, particularly if it contradicts something he has said
0:34:51 > 0:35:04pub iically. But how do I justify that?You are his servant.Oh, yes.