:00:07. > :00:38.In Tonight: Widespread collusion. A former RUC Special Branch chief
:00:39. > :00:42.disputes the claims. Allegations of conspiracy are very easy to make but
:00:43. > :00:45.hard to disprove. Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey and the
:00:46. > :00:47.Ulster Unionist Party's Danny Kennedy join me live to debate the
:00:48. > :00:50.allegations. Also tonight: What now for planning
:00:51. > :00:53.as the Environment Minister changes tack because of legal concerns?
:00:54. > :00:56.It's the biggest change in the benefits system for decades, but
:00:57. > :01:07.where's the legislation for welfare reform? The Treasury are serious in
:01:08. > :01:09.their threat. I don't want to play Russian roulette with that sort of
:01:10. > :01:12.money. And with their view on the political
:01:13. > :01:20.week that was, I'm joined by commentators Paul McFadden and Alex
:01:21. > :01:22.Kane. And you can, of course, follow the
:01:23. > :01:32.programme on Twitter. Northern Ireland's bloody past
:01:33. > :01:36.dominated politics here again today. A new book claims that 120 sectarian
:01:37. > :01:39.murders in the 1970s were carried out by a loyalist gang based in
:01:40. > :01:46.County Armagh, which included members of the RUC and UDR. Deadly
:01:47. > :01:50.Allies is written by Anne Cadwallader, a researcher at the Pat
:01:51. > :01:55.Finucane Centre. She says it proves collusion was systemic. Earlier, I
:01:56. > :01:58.put her findings to a former head of the Special Branch in Belfast,
:01:59. > :02:05.Raymond White. I asked him if he accepts collusion was as widespread
:02:06. > :02:13.as the book claims. I don't believe it to be the case. There was police
:02:14. > :02:20.involvement and security force involvement in a number of cases,
:02:21. > :02:26.but certainly, it would be massively surprisingly 120 cases had direct
:02:27. > :02:33.security force involvement. Yet the author's conclusions were reached
:02:34. > :02:40.and backed up by HET evidence as well. One extract says there was
:02:41. > :02:45.indisputable evidence of security forces's collusion. Her point is it
:02:46. > :02:53.is much more than individual freelance acts. It is orchestrated.
:02:54. > :02:59.I don't accept the orchestration. Alarm bells were wrong in the 1970s.
:03:00. > :03:03.And that is why cases will rigourously investigated. HET's
:03:04. > :03:07.information is entirely based on that information already in police
:03:08. > :03:14.archives. If the information was there, it was known at the top level
:03:15. > :03:18.of both police and government. What's been the reaction amongst
:03:19. > :03:21.your colleagues about the fact this book has been published in some
:03:22. > :03:27.allegations are in the public domain? The thing is, they were
:03:28. > :03:35.talked about when the court cases took place in respect... They would
:03:36. > :03:42.talk about when prosecutions occurred. There is nothing hidden
:03:43. > :03:49.there. What you have now is a correlation of all this.
:03:50. > :03:56.Investigators in the 1970s will be well aware of the murder Triangle in
:03:57. > :04:03.a vast number of killings taking place on a daily basis. There is no
:04:04. > :04:08.doubt that there was security force involvement in a number of murders.
:04:09. > :04:14.Can I ask you specifically about the three steps bombing which killed two
:04:15. > :04:22.people in August, 1976? The book claims before the attack, the RUC
:04:23. > :04:26.new A-bomb was in place. The surveillance operation was ended and
:04:27. > :04:31.the bomb was used in the attack, and the book claims the RUC special
:04:32. > :04:38.Branch knew the identities of four people involved in the bombing. I
:04:39. > :04:44.don't know that specific mark, so I am not in a position to comment on
:04:45. > :04:52.the issue. But if that's true, that is very serious. All we have is what
:04:53. > :04:57.is stated in the book. I can't add anything to that statement, but all
:04:58. > :05:05.I'm saying is that if it is true, it is worthy of further investigation.
:05:06. > :05:11.Is it possible that it be true? Given the capacities we had in the
:05:12. > :05:24.1970s, the RUC did not have any surveillance capacity. It was... If
:05:25. > :05:29.they supplied surveillance, we need to look in detail at the records to
:05:30. > :05:34.see what was said in respect of that incident. The form it 81st Minister
:05:35. > :05:42.has now weighed into the debate, claiming members of the gang were
:05:43. > :05:50.protected by some members within the special Branch. -- the form yet
:05:51. > :05:55.Deputy first Minister. I would like to see him develop his accusation. I
:05:56. > :06:02.am not aware of anybody being protected in any shape or form.
:06:03. > :06:10.Those murders and murder gangs were viewed in the same way. We abhor
:06:11. > :06:13.what they were engaged in and abhor the fact that members of the
:06:14. > :06:20.security forces were actually engaged at the same time in helping
:06:21. > :06:25.terrorists to uphold the law, when in actual fact, they were losing
:06:26. > :06:28.their own lives. Do you think this increases the need for finding a
:06:29. > :06:37.proper mechanism for dealing with the past? I think it does. We are
:06:38. > :06:49.engaged in helping the existing mechanisms work. In that sense, we
:06:50. > :06:55.are the only show in town. We will continue to do so. That is provided
:06:56. > :07:03.those investigations are done to a professional standard. Allegations
:07:04. > :07:07.of conspiracy are very easy to make that very hard to disprove.
:07:08. > :07:10.Raymond White talking to me earlier. With me now are Sinn Fein's Alex
:07:11. > :07:17.Maskey and Danny Kennedy from the Ulster Unionist Party. There we saw
:07:18. > :07:22.a former assistant chief constable who accepts there were isolated
:07:23. > :07:26.incidents where security force involvement was proven in murders,
:07:27. > :07:38.he refutes allegations of systemic collusion. The special Branch were
:07:39. > :07:44.one of the most hated organisations. That's part of our history because
:07:45. > :07:54.people in the meat community I represent knew what was going on and
:07:55. > :07:58.unfortunately, in this book, information comes from police
:07:59. > :08:06.themselves. The anybody to suggest this was not going on, was not
:08:07. > :08:12.systemic, should be really embarrassed. The me, the important
:08:13. > :08:23.thing here... And I speak of a victim of collusion. That deal was
:08:24. > :08:30.struck by the then Attorney General, got the dealer around the
:08:31. > :08:34.Cabinet table when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister. That's all fact.
:08:35. > :08:43.People are well aware of these revelations. This one particular
:08:44. > :08:49.case, this book, identifies 120 cases. This week alone, we have an
:08:50. > :08:55.inquest of an old lady shot dead in a house when there were surveillance
:08:56. > :09:01.cameras trained on that properly. -- trained on that property.
:09:02. > :09:07.Unfortunately, people tried to deny that happened in a systemic way.
:09:08. > :09:12.They are not doing the peace process any good. Is this evidence of a
:09:13. > :09:19.climate where the authorities were prepared to fight terrorism by any
:09:20. > :09:24.means? I don't believe it is. It is evidence of the ongoing Republican
:09:25. > :09:29.objective of forcing a narrative saying, things were so difficult for
:09:30. > :09:34.Republicans, that they had to take forcible arms when the truth is
:09:35. > :09:40.entirely different. Based on evidence contained in this book,
:09:41. > :09:44.though, there is evidence of collusion at the highest possible
:09:45. > :09:52.levels, and sheep quotes up to 120 murders. I don't believe collusion
:09:53. > :10:02.was systemic or anything like that. I think she has it wrong. There is a
:10:03. > :10:06.blurring of the lines here. It is wrong and unfortunate. I agree
:10:07. > :10:13.largely with the comments of Raymond White, who himself was a very fine
:10:14. > :10:18.police officer. He says, as far as the three steps cases concerned, he
:10:19. > :10:23.said, if it's true, it's very serious and worthy of further
:10:24. > :10:29.investigation. What's undeniable was that a lot of innocent people died
:10:30. > :10:40.tragically. I condemn murder and always have done. But I do have to
:10:41. > :10:44.say that I don't believe it was systemic. I believe that people were
:10:45. > :10:49.operating in difficult circumstances. I come from South
:10:50. > :10:56.Armagh and know what life was like to live there, and I also know the
:10:57. > :11:02.challenges. Sorry, this is important because I know of the challenges
:11:03. > :11:07.that this -- that the security forces faced in South Armagh. But
:11:08. > :11:17.that would not have justified systemic collusion, would it? I
:11:18. > :11:23.don't believe it existed. This book is largely based on HET reports.
:11:24. > :11:33.Another point that Raymond White made. For any senior RUC figure
:11:34. > :11:41.today saying they did not have access and could not join the dots I
:11:42. > :11:46.think is shameful. The evidence has been brought to them. They did not
:11:47. > :11:54.join up the dots do not believe that... The other point to want to
:11:55. > :12:02.make is this. The HET claimer rubber can conspiracy. -- claim a
:12:03. > :12:06.Republican conspiracy. Why don't people actually listen to the truth
:12:07. > :12:10.for once? You are picking and choosing here tonight. You have
:12:11. > :12:19.criticised the HET in the past don't like the way it operates in certain
:12:20. > :12:22.circumstances. You like tonight. The evidence in this book comes from the
:12:23. > :12:28.HET reports, which comes from the RUC. These were the reports produced
:12:29. > :12:35.by HET, not me or any Republican. The point of it is people need to
:12:36. > :12:41.get the truth. Let us get it all out there. Seamus Mallon, the former
:12:42. > :12:46.Deputy First Minister believes there was evidence of significant levels
:12:47. > :12:54.of collusion. Surely you have to take a man like that seriously? Alex
:12:55. > :12:57.is being selective, as Sinn Fein have been throughout this process.
:12:58. > :13:09.We have heard again selective wire graphical details from Alex tonight.
:13:10. > :13:27.-- biographical details will stop. I would like him to admit his actions
:13:28. > :13:35.within the Republican movement. Either he did not know it existed
:13:36. > :13:42.like his party leader... You have made that point. Answer the question
:13:43. > :13:46.on Seamus Mallon. A former Deputy First Minister. Not a member of Sinn
:13:47. > :13:51.Fein, not a member of the Republican movement, he hasn't raised serious
:13:52. > :14:02.issues. Should you not taken seriously? Are member accusations
:14:03. > :14:09.made by nationalists, including Seamus Mallon. They have caused
:14:10. > :14:12.serious hurt to the families of the security forces for the allegations,
:14:13. > :14:17.will weather made by Seamus Mallon or the Republicans or Sinn Fein, or
:14:18. > :14:30.people through a book, allegations require evidence. Had I died of my
:14:31. > :14:34.gunshot wounds, would I have been an innocent victim? You are talking
:14:35. > :14:46.about interpreting the past. Would I have been an innocent victim? Are
:14:47. > :14:54.you willing to admit your activities... Would I have been an
:14:55. > :14:56.innocent victim or not? I have absolutely conveyed my borrowings of
:14:57. > :15:13.innocent victim or not? I have violence of -- my cup abhorrence of
:15:14. > :15:20.violence. You should be able to give a simple yes or no. Thankfully, he
:15:21. > :15:26.did not die, but too many did die. A final sentence. Republicans are
:15:27. > :15:29.looking for answers from others when they will not give answers
:15:30. > :15:33.themselves and stop what my party have been clear about, let us have a
:15:34. > :15:38.truth process that we can all subscribe to. I look forward to
:15:39. > :15:47.that. People should not be afraid of the truth. I do very much to both of
:15:48. > :15:49.you. Now, are our politicians playing party politics with planning
:15:50. > :15:52.legislation? On Tuesday, the Environment Minister said he
:15:53. > :15:55.wouldn't be proceeding with his Planning Bill. Mark H Durkan told
:15:56. > :15:58.the Assembly he was withdrawing it because of legal concerns
:15:59. > :16:00.surrounding the DUP and Sinn Fein's proposed amendments setting up
:16:01. > :16:03.so-called economically significant planning zones in certain areas. Mr
:16:04. > :16:09.Durkan came into The View studio earlier today.
:16:10. > :16:15.I said in the chamber the other day, and I will say it again today. Those
:16:16. > :16:19.amendments have made it a toxic piece of legislation. It was brought
:16:20. > :16:27.with good intentions to speed up and improve the transfer of planning to
:16:28. > :16:31.councils. That has been derailed by a those amendments. Derailed by your
:16:32. > :16:35.decision not to proceed with the planning Bill. Because that is what
:16:36. > :16:40.you have done is that the good elements that people were supportive
:16:41. > :16:43.of and would have been keen to see on statute books I now lost. I
:16:44. > :16:55.remain committed to bringing through the good elements of the bill by
:16:56. > :17:02.different means. This bill was just an attempt to fast forward the
:17:03. > :17:08.powers that were coming their way. As time moves on, we have run out of
:17:09. > :17:13.road. That is why I felt I had to act. What we do need, what everyone
:17:14. > :17:16.needs in the planning system is certainty. These amendments created
:17:17. > :17:21.uncertainty. Had the bill progressed, I have no doubt that it
:17:22. > :17:26.would have been the subject of legal challenge and that would have done
:17:27. > :17:31.very little to speed up the transfer of these powers or to create a
:17:32. > :17:35.certainty. Playing schoolyard politics here with this because
:17:36. > :17:40.you're concerned fundamentally that part of your rig is being taken over
:17:41. > :17:46.by the office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. That is
:17:47. > :17:49.what it boils down to. This is about planning, not politics was a pit is
:17:50. > :17:55.not my Department being disempowered here. Don't forget, I'm still does
:17:56. > :17:59.ring powers to local councils. Two weeks ago, we voted to pass the
:18:00. > :18:04.local government reform Bill which deal with the transfer of powers to
:18:05. > :18:10.the local councils. Through the amendments, planning powers were
:18:11. > :18:15.being taken away from them. Also, if we are talking about power being
:18:16. > :18:18.taken away, one of the amendments is actually taking the power and the
:18:19. > :18:24.Right away from people to judicial review against planning decisions
:18:25. > :18:28.that they are not happy with. Can I ask you sought legal advice from. He
:18:29. > :18:34.did not consult the Attorney General. Why not and should you not
:18:35. > :18:44.have? My predecessor initially sought legal advice from one of the
:18:45. > :18:50.top five QCs on these islands. I have no doubt on the validity of
:18:51. > :18:58.that advice and indeed that opinion has been shared by any other lawyer
:18:59. > :19:01.I have spoken to , any other planning professional aye has hugged
:19:02. > :19:05.it. The only voices I have heard to contradict that legal opinion have
:19:06. > :19:19.been those of the DUP and most recently that of the Attorney
:19:20. > :19:24.General. I did not hear what he Attorney General said until after
:19:25. > :19:29.the debate on Tuesday. I have every right... You must have heard what he
:19:30. > :19:33.said to your predecessor? My predecessor did not receive advice
:19:34. > :19:39.from the Attorney General on this either. I have every right to seek
:19:40. > :19:47.legal advice, as any senior executive does from any source. That
:19:48. > :19:53.is the good the evidence here of the success of some executive ministers
:19:54. > :20:01.in court lately. Can I ask you a few things? Will you read use this bill?
:20:02. > :20:05.Is that a possibility? Not that I am aware. I have a meeting next week
:20:06. > :20:09.and I'm sure this will arise and I will be fully aware of the
:20:10. > :20:14.imprecations at a possible way forward. What are the indications
:20:15. > :20:23.for ordinary people who are interested in planning for reasons.
:20:24. > :20:26.What about developers who want to bring major investment into this
:20:27. > :20:32.What about developers who want to country? It came on the heels of an
:20:33. > :20:37.investment conference which trumpeted the fact that your bill
:20:38. > :20:43.was going through. The applications for both the man on the street and
:20:44. > :20:45.big business are good. The response has been good.
:20:46. > :20:49.The Environment Minister, Mark H Durkan. Now, it's the biggest change
:20:50. > :20:52.in the benefits system for decades and Stormont is supposed to be
:20:53. > :20:55.passing a bill to introduce the changes. These include a new
:20:56. > :20:58.universal credit payment to replace Child Tax Credit and Housing
:20:59. > :20:59.Benefit. But where's the legislation? Our Political
:21:00. > :21:08.Correspondent, Martina Purdy, has been investigating.
:21:09. > :21:11.In February last year, Parliament passed a welfare reform Bill,
:21:12. > :21:18.spearheaded by this minister, Iain Duncan Smith. He says it is about
:21:19. > :21:22.signifying a complex system, getting people back to work and ensuring
:21:23. > :21:26.help for those who need it most. But with no sign of matching legislation
:21:27. > :21:32.at Stormont, questions were being asked this week. Does the Minister
:21:33. > :21:36.not agree that there is an urgent need to share with the people of
:21:37. > :21:43.Northern Ireland the details of the package? Has your Department
:21:44. > :21:48.conducted any analysis of the loss of income to the people and families
:21:49. > :21:55.most effective by the welfare reform? Is the Minister to say when
:21:56. > :22:00.he will bring the bill back to the House cost and Mike we decided to
:22:01. > :22:08.opt for our own welfare bill but it has been plagued by delays. Three
:22:09. > :22:12.ministers have dealt with the issue. The bill did not come to the
:22:13. > :22:17.assembled floor until October 2012. It passed the committee stage in
:22:18. > :22:25.February this share but in April the social development Minister pulled
:22:26. > :22:33.the plug. It is perhaps no surprise. The Sinn Fein wanted more
:22:34. > :22:38.negotiation with London. They're also complains about the so-called
:22:39. > :22:44.bedroom tax. There are also concerns that parts of Northern Ireland have
:22:45. > :22:50.a shortage of one-bedroom flats. An interview was given by Alex Maskey
:22:51. > :22:54.in August when he talked about not introducing the bedroom tax for
:22:55. > :23:04.existing claimants and just looking at that for new claimants. The View
:23:05. > :23:09.asked for a comment from Alex Maskey come the head of the committee
:23:10. > :23:12.looking into it. Sinn Fein declined, saying they are still looking into
:23:13. > :23:21.the issue. The DUP has a different position. My understanding is that
:23:22. > :23:28.Martin McGuinness did sign off on this. I cannot comment at all on the
:23:29. > :23:32.internal machinations of Sinn Fein. Earlier this month, the Deputy First
:23:33. > :23:37.Minister gave no hint a deal had been done on welfare reform. It can
:23:38. > :23:43.be very difficult form many people who will be impacted by the
:23:44. > :23:48.decisions that are being taken. The bedroom tax is obviously a critical
:23:49. > :23:51.one. There have been claims Sinn Fein is blocking the bill because of
:23:52. > :23:58.pressure from the SDLP or because the bill is a bargaining chip for
:23:59. > :24:07.wider negotiations will stop others see Sinn Fein as having an advantage
:24:08. > :24:12.in delay. Universal credit was not rolled out this month, apparently
:24:13. > :24:16.because of computer problems. They have looked across the water and
:24:17. > :24:22.seen that the timetable for universal credit has slowed down a
:24:23. > :24:25.lot, which has emboldened our politicians to take this more
:24:26. > :24:30.slowly. For those on the ground, there is uncertainty on what reform
:24:31. > :24:36.or means financially, not least for those facing assessments for their
:24:37. > :24:41.ability to work. This man had a stroke a few years ago and fears the
:24:42. > :24:50.reforms will do more harm than good. Seeing that they are cracking down
:24:51. > :24:55.on scroungers and the disabled may fall into the gap. He says there is
:24:56. > :25:04.an urgent need to end the uncertainty. The delay is causing a
:25:05. > :25:13.concern because people do not know what is coming. They don't know how
:25:14. > :25:15.fast it is coming. A strategy of delay is unrealistic according to
:25:16. > :25:22.the Conservative party in Northern Ireland. I think if they think they
:25:23. > :25:27.can take advantage of it, they are in some strange world. It is
:25:28. > :25:32.something that has been rolled out across the UK and the taxpayer will
:25:33. > :25:36.be expecting it to be rolled out in Northern Ireland as well. Stormont
:25:37. > :25:44.has warned that patients in London is wearing thing and if it does not
:25:45. > :25:54.roll out the bill soon, the Treasury will withhold payments. It will rise
:25:55. > :25:58.to ?200 million by 2017. The Treasury are serious in their threat
:25:59. > :26:01.that they will take around ?60 million out of our Budget. I don't
:26:02. > :26:09.want to play Russian roulette with that sort of money. Perhaps progress
:26:10. > :26:20.does not just depend on the leaders agreeing. Sinn Fein has to take into
:26:21. > :26:23.account its power in Dail. Martina Purdy reporting. Let's hear
:26:24. > :26:28.the thoughts of tonight's commentators, Alex Kane and Paul
:26:29. > :26:42.McFadden. Let us have a brief word on welfare reform. It's not going to
:26:43. > :26:48.go away. We saw Hamilton talking about not being prepared to play
:26:49. > :26:54.Russian roulette with this issue. I suspect Sinn Fein don't want to come
:26:55. > :27:02.across as a party which has one approaching the public and another
:27:03. > :27:07.in private. This is the most important piece of legislation to
:27:08. > :27:14.come before a Northern Ireland assembly or Parliament since 1921.
:27:15. > :27:19.It affects everyone. Here they are, for five years later, still tromping
:27:20. > :27:25.over every little bit of it. It's actually a derogation. Let's talk
:27:26. > :27:30.about the main issue on the programme tonight: These allegations
:27:31. > :27:34.of widespread, systemic collusion. What did you make of that debate?
:27:35. > :27:43.It's quite revealing the number ways. Revealing and an away
:27:44. > :27:47.disappointing. Any law-abiding citizen would be disturbed by the
:27:48. > :27:58.revelations contained in the book. The you have 20 former security
:27:59. > :28:03.forces involved -- the claim that you have. Given the provenance of
:28:04. > :28:13.the information and research, we're not talking... We're talking about
:28:14. > :28:19.the HET. These allegations need to be taken seriously. Not so says
:28:20. > :28:27.Danny Kennedy and Raymond White. The huge problem here, it's about the
:28:28. > :28:35.truth process. To some people in Northern Ireland, it won't matter
:28:36. > :28:41.what she writes. You believe what you want to believe in Northern
:28:42. > :28:44.Ireland. What you saw between Danny and Alex, it was competing
:28:45. > :28:54.narratives, a clash of what they want in terms of agenda. And
:28:55. > :28:58.virtually no common ground. There can't be common ground. The both
:28:59. > :29:07.sides, there are no grey areas. Everything is black and white,
:29:08. > :29:13.orange and green. Even though deep inside they may believe it,
:29:14. > :29:19.orange and green. Even though deep you have the state accused of being
:29:20. > :29:33.involved in up to 120 cases of murder. It doesn't shock me. White
:29:34. > :29:43.acknowledged that. What the clashes here, the minute you admit it was
:29:44. > :29:46.orchestrated, how far did it go? Does this help us move towards
:29:47. > :29:55.finding a mechanism to deal with the past, or does the debate we saw
:29:56. > :30:01.tonight hinted that process? I don't think it advances us. Whatever kind
:30:02. > :30:09.of mechanism we need to address, I don't see any evidence of that model
:30:10. > :30:14.being in place. I agree. Both sides believe their own truths. When you
:30:15. > :30:23.don't have agreement on a narrative, it's not possible to have truth.
:30:24. > :30:30.Here is a tweet which called everyone at's attention this week.
:30:31. > :30:50.-- which caught everyone's attention. I was astonished that
:30:51. > :30:54.there were so many politicians willing to accept the engagement.
:30:55. > :30:59.This day and age, it's not the way to go about business. They have had
:31:00. > :31:02.the polygamy round this row. Paul and Alex, thank you. Just time,
:31:03. > :31:04.then, for our insider's look at what's been happening up on the
:31:05. > :31:25.hill. Planning Bill withdrawn, and now the
:31:26. > :31:32.final straw poll on moving this a poster competition away from storm
:31:33. > :31:40.on it! They do not care about the ordinary man. Meanwhile dissident
:31:41. > :31:53.republicans firebombed a store. Do I smell a united Ireland? No, if you
:31:54. > :32:04.shrivelled brains. Now, they have got Edwin's own piece of performance
:32:05. > :32:08.art. Man urinating in the winter. -- in the wind.
:32:09. > :32:12.That's it from The View for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics at
:32:13. > :32:14.the slightly later time of 12:20 here on BBC One. For now, though,
:32:15. > :32:21.bye bye.