:00:23. > :00:26.Coming up on The View tonight: The politics of religion. As the debate
:00:26. > :00:31.on same sex marriage emerges for the second time in six months, we
:00:31. > :00:34.hear from a senior Catholic cleric on the Church's challenge to MLAs.
:00:34. > :00:39.Divided on education. Has sharing trumped integration when it comes
:00:39. > :00:42.to the future for schools here? And is Stormont a charisma-free
:00:42. > :00:52.zone or does democracy demand dullness? A former politician
:00:52. > :00:56.delivers his damning verdict. are doled and second-rate.
:00:56. > :01:00.And what will our commentators make of that judgement? Tonight we have
:01:00. > :01:10.Professor Pete Shirlow and first timer, Koulla Yiasouma.
:01:10. > :01:10.
:01:11. > :01:14.And you can follow the programme on Tonight the Catholic Church stepped
:01:14. > :01:19.up its opposition to any move to allow same-sex couples the right to
:01:19. > :01:22.marry in Northern Ireland. A letter setting out the Church's position
:01:22. > :01:25.is being sent to all MLAs ahead of an Assembly debate next Monday when
:01:25. > :01:29.Sinn Fein will call for legislation to be changed to allow for same sex
:01:29. > :01:32.marriage. It's the first time the Catholic Church has taken such a
:01:32. > :01:39.step, so why now? Father Tim Bartlett is a spokesman for the
:01:39. > :01:44.Church. Think you for joining us on the
:01:44. > :01:48.programme. Why stared into this debate at this particular time?
:01:48. > :01:52.you see yourself, this coming Monday almost out of the brewers
:01:52. > :01:57.would appear, our Assembly is being asked to consider the future of the
:01:57. > :02:03.institution of marriage. We are appealing to our politicians on a
:02:03. > :02:07.number of friends. Say to all the mums and dads out there, they still
:02:07. > :02:12.matter in terms of bringing up children. The institution of
:02:12. > :02:16.marriage still matters in society. Marriage between a woman and a man.
:02:16. > :02:20.To say that the institution of marriage between a woman and a man
:02:20. > :02:27.is the same as the relationship between a relationship between the
:02:27. > :02:31.same sex, you can't say they are the same and therefore it isn't
:02:31. > :02:35.appropriate to say there should be treated as the same all equal.
:02:35. > :02:39.say you can't say they are the same their supporters of same-sex
:02:39. > :02:44.marriage would say nothing is being taken away from the traditional
:02:44. > :02:50.view of marriage. It is the view of extending it. You have nothing to
:02:50. > :02:54.fear. It is not to do with fear, but what is married and what
:02:54. > :02:59.constitutes marriage? Society recognises the ability of a woman
:02:59. > :03:06.and a man and only a woman and a man can do this to come together,
:03:06. > :03:11.to complement each other in their mutual physical integrity and to
:03:11. > :03:14.bring children into the world. That has been recognised by society as
:03:14. > :03:24.the fundamental building blocks of society. Same-sex couples can not
:03:24. > :03:27.
:03:27. > :03:31.do that. They are not the same. The reason we have managed is
:03:31. > :03:41.particularly in society. It is because of the nurturing and
:03:41. > :03:42.
:03:42. > :03:47.rearing of children. Are we saying for the first time in history that
:03:47. > :03:51.mums and dads don't matter any more? It doesn't matter what type
:03:51. > :03:57.of relationship, mums and dads don't matter any more. I don't
:03:57. > :04:03.think commonsense tells us that. Tells us about the letter the
:04:03. > :04:07.Catholic Church will sent to the MLAs ahead of Monday's debate. You
:04:07. > :04:11.will e-mail it over the weekend. It is the first time it will be
:04:11. > :04:15.discussed publicly. What are you going to be saying? Are less is
:04:15. > :04:19.being finalised but the kind of thing I expected to say is any
:04:19. > :04:26.debate about this matter from a Christian point of view has to be
:04:26. > :04:33.from the terms of respect, love and kindness for each other. That
:04:33. > :04:41.should be the tenor of any debate. There are differences of opinion.
:04:41. > :04:44.It could save mothers and fathers are important. -- it could save.
:04:44. > :04:51.For I am not in danger of getting into territory that you should not
:04:51. > :04:56.be getting into. People elect politicians to debate processes. If
:04:56. > :05:06.you on the church one to have your say, you have a pulpit, use it.
:05:06. > :05:07.
:05:07. > :05:13.say our politicians are elected. How many of the politicians, will
:05:13. > :05:16.they put it to their electorate? I am not sure if they did. Have you
:05:16. > :05:22.ask people if they are an uncomfortable about those parties
:05:22. > :05:24.they voted for? One of the reasons we are doing this is the number of
:05:24. > :05:29.people have been telling the Catholic Church and the
:05:29. > :05:33.Presbyterian Church, they want somebody leadership from the church
:05:34. > :05:40.on this issue. They are not happy and comfortable with what some of
:05:40. > :05:45.our politicians are doing. First of all, the Catholic Church does not
:05:45. > :05:53.argue this matter as a matter of religion. This is a natural
:05:53. > :06:03.institution of society, it flows from man and woman. How have
:06:03. > :06:04.
:06:04. > :06:12.politicians lobbied you on this? am not naming parties but it's
:06:12. > :06:16.certainly elective people have told to meet their Ernie's. What is your
:06:16. > :06:20.message to people who have voted in the past for Sinn Fein and the
:06:20. > :06:24.SDLP? Are you saying to the Catholic faithful you need to think
:06:24. > :06:29.long and hard about supporting these parties? At the end of the
:06:29. > :06:35.day how someone votes is a complex decision but we are saying, yes,
:06:35. > :06:42.how a party takes a position on fundamental issues of morality, of
:06:42. > :06:51.the Gooda society, is the mix of things you have to decide when you
:06:51. > :06:56.vote. We make no apology for saying that politicians, there is this
:06:56. > :07:04.idea that politicians somehow I expected to lead -- leave their
:07:04. > :07:12.moral conscience by the door of the Assembly, that is nonsense. The are
:07:12. > :07:18.entitled -- they are entitled to be free to put forward their vision
:07:18. > :07:24.for what is good for society. are entitled, if they agree with
:07:24. > :07:30.you, to do that. If they disagreed and they claim to be a member of a
:07:30. > :07:35.particular faith, or no faith, but if they are part of the faith
:07:35. > :07:40.community which has a particular set of beliefs, there comes a point
:07:40. > :07:47.when that fete committee is entitled to say, it is what you
:07:47. > :07:50.saying consistent with that body of believes? A parish priest Father
:07:50. > :07:55.Owen Gorman said Catholics are started supporting the DUP because
:07:55. > :07:58.of the most consistently pro-life and pro traditional marriage party
:07:58. > :08:02.in Northern Ireland. Do you agree with that? How that is absolutely
:08:02. > :08:12.true. There is no irony that the Catholic Church has, purses with
:08:12. > :08:21.
:08:22. > :08:25.the DUP -- Common Purpose with the DUP on this issue? It should be
:08:25. > :08:35.significant is using devaluation of any Catholic when they exercise
:08:35. > :08:36.
:08:36. > :08:39.their vote. Catholics, faithful Catholics need to think long and
:08:39. > :08:45.hard about whether or not they continue to support signed Fein and
:08:45. > :08:54.the SDLP on this issue -- Sinn Fein? They need to think long and
:08:54. > :08:59.hard about these issues and how the individual or the parties represent
:08:59. > :09:02.their position on those views. Then maybe other balancing is used they
:09:02. > :09:07.have to take into account. That is a careful evaluation everybody has
:09:07. > :09:17.to make. But they are fundamentally important issues they should be
:09:17. > :09:18.
:09:18. > :09:23.considered. It is intriguing to hear your thoughts. For now, many
:09:23. > :09:25.thanks indeed for joining us. Still to come on The View: As a new
:09:25. > :09:33.report proposes better partnerships between schools, is integrated
:09:33. > :09:37.education at risk of losing out to Two weeks ago, Senator George
:09:37. > :09:39.Mitchell told The View how his teenage son was so bored watching
:09:39. > :09:45.an Assembly debate, he couldn't get out of the public gallery quickly
:09:45. > :09:49.enough. Could it be true? Is the Assembly too dull? Has Stormont
:09:49. > :09:59.become a colourless, charisma-free zone? Mark Simpson set out to find
:09:59. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:15.out. Never! Never! I don't give two
:10:15. > :10:21.balls of roasted snow what advice anybody gives me about those talks.
:10:21. > :10:30.This paper is unacceptable. I wouldn't say it is with a 40 ft
:10:30. > :10:34.pole. -- I would not touch it. haven't gone away, you know! This
:10:34. > :10:39.was the official portrait of the first Assembly, many of the most
:10:39. > :10:46.colourful characters are no longer at Stormont. Bob McCartney may have
:10:46. > :10:51.lost his seat but not his opinions. They don't make speeches any more.
:10:51. > :10:54.They get up and the read out a prepared statement that has got no
:10:54. > :11:02.connection with what has gone on before and even less with what is
:11:02. > :11:08.yet to come because the next. It is not a debate in the true sense.
:11:08. > :11:11.Churchill used to say that are really route -- good speech was the
:11:11. > :11:16.sustained logical arguments presented in the most attractive
:11:16. > :11:20.language possible. If you use that as your criteria for colour, and
:11:20. > :11:30.there is very little colour in the Assembly. Dare I ask, what advice
:11:30. > :11:34.would you give to the current crop of members? The are beyond advice.
:11:34. > :11:38.His first Assembly was colourful. There was rarely a dull moment but
:11:38. > :11:42.we should not forget a kept collapsing and looking back some of
:11:42. > :11:50.those involved say politics should not be about the personality that
:11:50. > :11:54.about stability. Almost need to pass the baton on. -- all of us. We
:11:54. > :11:59.need to pass on encouragements for younger was to enter politics.
:11:59. > :12:03.Politics is where it's at. Everybody thinks it's really easy
:12:03. > :12:08.to have a go at politicians. If he goes to the Assembly anywhere in
:12:08. > :12:14.the world and I have sat in other parliaments in the chamber, in the
:12:14. > :12:24.gallery watching, and it is boring. That is the nature of legislative
:12:24. > :12:27.
:12:27. > :12:31.bodies. Hello? Are you here? folks on the hill and what they
:12:32. > :12:37.used to be. They don't produce the same amount of, the material or
:12:37. > :12:41.news. Much to the annoyance of one Sunday newspaper editor. They call
:12:41. > :12:46.it the big white house on the hill, is should be the whitewash. There
:12:46. > :12:50.is no colour up there. If I put a political story on my front page I
:12:50. > :13:00.would leave -- lose 10,000 circulation. People aren't
:13:00. > :13:00.
:13:00. > :13:04.interested. The mundane nature of politics now, unless it is a huge
:13:04. > :13:10.scandal, politics will not sell newspapers. Is that not a good
:13:10. > :13:17.thing? No, it is not for a start they are supposed to be the
:13:17. > :13:21.lifeblood of politics. This manner painted the original portraits. He
:13:21. > :13:26.sent time can make the power seemed more colourful than it was.
:13:26. > :13:30.eyes of the world war on us. It is a great place when you were in the
:13:30. > :13:37.sunlight. Bill Clinton was a friend, Nelson Mandela. Everybody was
:13:37. > :13:42.watching us. But when the eyes of the world go away it has been it in
:13:42. > :13:48.the shadows which is much colder. Those personalities went
:13:48. > :13:53.charismatic, the events were. It is bland because the events are. We
:13:53. > :13:58.have nothing to react to. If you asked to paint their current
:13:58. > :14:03.Assembly would you paint it black and white? The personalities may be
:14:03. > :14:10.harder to recognise. We have had excitement when we need. It takes
:14:10. > :14:19.10,000 years to come out of an ice age. It was originally painted in
:14:19. > :14:26.black and white to start work. There are two of three versions of
:14:26. > :14:30.them underneath. I can remember that. A not everyone has gone,
:14:30. > :14:40.there are still some characters left. But whatever way you look at
:14:40. > :14:49.
:14:49. > :14:52.it in recent years, storm and seems education here was published on
:14:52. > :14:58.Monday. What is shared education? Here is how it is defined in the
:14:58. > :15:00.report. Two or more schools from different sectors, collaborating to
:15:00. > :15:04.deliver educational benefits, promoting equality of opportunity,
:15:04. > :15:08.good relations, equality of identity, respect for diversity and
:15:08. > :15:13.community cohesion. How does the report define collaboration? That
:15:13. > :15:16.involves teachers from different schools working together on key
:15:16. > :15:22.areas like training, curriculum planning and delivering lessons. For
:15:22. > :15:26.pupils, it means working on specific projects, sports and extracurricular
:15:26. > :15:30.activity. Rather than uniting opinion on a way forward, familiar
:15:30. > :15:34.divisions have been exposed. Much of the debate has focussed on academic
:15:34. > :15:44.selection. The report has drawn criticism from the integrated
:15:44. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:52.sector. With me now is Professor Paul Connolly and Baroness Blood.
:15:52. > :15:55.You are both very welcome. Thank you for joining us. Paul Connolly, at
:15:56. > :16:03.what point did the powers-that-be decide that shared education should
:16:03. > :16:08.be the preferred way forward? powers-that-be in terms of who?
:16:08. > :16:14.political establishment? Is that what we are working towards?
:16:14. > :16:24.terms of reference was how we could advance shared education in Northern
:16:24. > :16:27.
:16:28. > :16:29.Ireland. It was about not just looking at divisions in terms of
:16:29. > :16:33.religion but in terms of socio-economic background. That was
:16:33. > :16:37.the terms of reference we were set. What is attractive about shared
:16:37. > :16:42.education, in your view? We see this as not another initiative, but it
:16:42. > :16:46.should be the driver for change within the education system. We see
:16:46. > :16:52.shared education bringing two main benefits. One is in educational
:16:52. > :16:57.terms, it will increase standards, it should increase attainment. But
:16:57. > :16:59.in terms of good relations, by bringing children together from
:16:59. > :17:05.different backgrounds, it should encourage children to develop the
:17:05. > :17:08.skills they need to work in an open society. Why is shared education a
:17:08. > :17:14.better model for Northern Ireland than integrated education? It isn't
:17:14. > :17:19.better. We need to move away from in idea that it is one versus the
:17:19. > :17:28.other. If you look at our report, there are recommendations in there,
:17:28. > :17:33.16 and 17, which talk about schools that are popular. The Department of
:17:33. > :17:35.Education are taking risks. They are for new schools to develop where
:17:35. > :17:41.there is demand and for existing schools to change their status. The
:17:41. > :17:48.issue there then is that those are the things that the integrated
:17:48. > :17:53.sector have been asking for for many years. Baroness Blood, you are not
:17:53. > :17:57.happy with elements of this report. What is wrong with it? It is too
:17:57. > :17:59.bland. We talk about shared education, and if you read through
:17:59. > :18:07.the report, the type of shared education they are speaking about
:18:07. > :18:11.has been going on here for years and years. It is not a new thing. Try
:18:11. > :18:14.getting the Department to allow you to increase numbers in a popular
:18:14. > :18:20.school. It is impossible. They talk about young people working together.
:18:20. > :18:26.That has been happening for years. I was at the City Hall on Saturday
:18:26. > :18:31.night celebrating 30 years of community relations in schools. It's
:18:31. > :18:36.not a new idea. This report, I welcome it because it opens up the
:18:36. > :18:39.whole aspect of talking about it. It is too bland. There is no innovation
:18:39. > :18:43.in this report. Peter Robinson, the First Minister, says it is an
:18:43. > :18:47.opportunity lost. Are you saying he has that right? He has got part of
:18:47. > :18:51.it right, yes. I think the panel that was set by the Minister had a
:18:51. > :18:55.real opportunity here to put through a report that would be innovative
:18:55. > :18:59.and taking risks and that has not happened. Did they miss a trick in
:18:59. > :19:05.your view because they didn't come down on integrated education as
:19:05. > :19:08.being the preferred model for the way forward? No. We have never said
:19:08. > :19:12.an integrated education, that it was the only way forward. We don't
:19:12. > :19:16.believe it. We do believe in parental choice which is a big thing
:19:16. > :19:22.in the report. I would like to know how the report intends parental
:19:22. > :19:30.choice to be gauged. Who is going to ask? They are going to get the same
:19:30. > :19:36.answers. What is the answer to that? How do you square that circle?
:19:36. > :19:39.me say, May is right. We have had 30 years or more of schools coming
:19:39. > :19:43.together. The big issue we have learnt from the research is that
:19:43. > :19:47.schools that come together for short periods of time, without sustained
:19:47. > :19:50.contact, that is where the problem is. It has no effect. There's a
:19:50. > :19:55.fundamental difference between those old schemes and shared education. If
:19:55. > :20:00.you look at our report, I disagree with May. We have a radical
:20:00. > :20:05.conception of what shared education is about. It is about local schools
:20:05. > :20:07.having deeper relationships, professional development of
:20:07. > :20:13.teachers, working together, sharing expertise, children learning
:20:13. > :20:16.together in a better way. Crucially, we are asking for equality and
:20:16. > :20:20.inclusion to be at the heart of the system. That has not been happening
:20:21. > :20:24.before. You are shaking your head? With the greatest of respect, Paul
:20:24. > :20:29.is showing you what integrated education is about. Shared education
:20:29. > :20:34.has been on the books here for years. It has always been privately
:20:34. > :20:38.funded. If you read the report, we are being told that private funders
:20:38. > :20:43.would be interested in this. They have been doing it for years.
:20:43. > :20:49.There's good results coming out of shared education. They are not being
:20:49. > :20:56.taken up by the Department. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I
:20:56. > :21:00.might press her by saying it is like you are reinventing the wheel. You
:21:00. > :21:05.haven't gone far enough? I think if you look at our recommendations, we
:21:05. > :21:10.are asking for the equality legislation to be put on to schools,
:21:10. > :21:13.Section 75. That is a radical change. We are asking for a
:21:13. > :21:17.fundamental review from young children through to the youth
:21:17. > :21:22.service to talk about controversial issues in school. The support that
:21:22. > :21:28.teachers need. These have taken us forward. May says about integrated
:21:28. > :21:32.education. This is good integrated education. We would disagree. The
:21:32. > :21:36.starting point is parental choice. We have a vision of a more diverse
:21:36. > :21:38.education system where parental choice is at the heart of that. Some
:21:38. > :21:42.parents with strong faith convictions for their children would
:21:42. > :21:46.want their children to be brought up in integrated schools. You talk
:21:46. > :21:49.about parental choice. Critics of the report have said you are keen on
:21:49. > :21:52.the notion of parental choice, except where that choice is in
:21:52. > :21:55.favour of academic selection, which you don't like? Yeah. Parental
:21:55. > :22:01.choice is important. As long as everybody has that choice. As long
:22:01. > :22:07.as that choice is open to all. Including parents who want academic
:22:07. > :22:12.selection? Let's say we set up new schools in Northern Ireland and that
:22:12. > :22:16.is open for parental choice but only for white parents. We would be up in
:22:17. > :22:20.arms, quite rightly. In terms of this debate - this is a very
:22:20. > :22:26.important point. There's been hysterical reaction over the last
:22:26. > :22:30.few days. We have had politicians calling us right-wing fascists. The
:22:30. > :22:37.key issue here, all of those people, not one of them addressed our
:22:37. > :22:41.evidence. I would want to give one statistic. If we look at children
:22:41. > :22:46.entitled to free school meals, the odds of those getting a place at
:22:46. > :22:51.grammar school is one to five. For every other child, it is evens. My
:22:51. > :22:56.challenge to people who have been criticising us on this issue, let's
:22:56. > :23:01.have their views on that statistic and they have two choices. They can
:23:01. > :23:05.say that is acceptable and they need to justify why or they need to say
:23:05. > :23:14.it is unacceptable and they need to tell us what they are doing about
:23:14. > :23:19.it. OK. All right. I am sure they will be keen to have that debate
:23:19. > :23:25.with you. This is a very significant report. It is a weighty report. A
:23:25. > :23:28.lot of effort has gone into it. What needs to happen now? Let's see how
:23:28. > :23:33.many of the recommendations the Department and the Minister takes
:23:33. > :23:37.up. There have been report after report in the education system. They
:23:37. > :23:43.are gathering dust. If we want to have parental choice here, let's
:23:43. > :23:50.find a mechanism for doing it. Let's find a mechanism for working it out.
:23:50. > :23:57.All right. That is an interesting point and a positive note to leave
:23:57. > :24:04.it on. Thank you both very much for joining us on the programme. Plenty
:24:05. > :24:09.for our commentators to discuss tonight. Joining us is Koulla
:24:09. > :24:15.Yiasouma - welcome - and here alongside her is Professor Pete
:24:15. > :24:20.Shirlow. Nice to see you. You were in the States? I was.Let's talk
:24:21. > :24:25.about shared education. You both have a keen interest in education,
:24:25. > :24:29.obviously. Koulla Yiasouma, interesting contribution or did it
:24:29. > :24:38.underperform? Was it a missed opportunity? I think it's very
:24:38. > :24:45.difficult to disagree with anything in this report. I welcome,
:24:45. > :24:49.particularly what Professor Connolly just said about Section 75. I
:24:49. > :24:56.welcome the assertion that we have to do away with academic selection.
:24:56. > :24:59.That has to happen. I do agree with Baroness Blood when she says, not
:24:59. > :25:06.that it is bland, it could have gone further. We are asking our children
:25:06. > :25:09.to do a number of things that we have been asking them to do, in the
:25:09. > :25:13.23 years I have been closely involved with Northern Ireland. We
:25:13. > :25:17.are not asking our adults to do that. I would have wanted to see a
:25:17. > :25:21.report like this as part of a shared future for Northern Ireland policy.
:25:21. > :25:24.We are trying to do something in our schools but we are not doing them in
:25:25. > :25:29.our communities. All of the people who criticise this report are
:25:29. > :25:36.criticising aspects of this report and they never question failure. If
:25:36. > :25:43.only one in five school kids on free school meals get to grammar schools,
:25:43. > :25:50.why is that not being addressed? Kids in deprived environments are
:25:50. > :25:55.getting a second-class education. That's right. I have come back from
:25:55. > :26:00.Canada - you couldn't get a more ethnically diverse society than
:26:00. > :26:06.that. Canada is a major economy. One thing we know is that social mixing
:26:06. > :26:09.creates better results. I agree. This is why this report is the
:26:09. > :26:13.beginning of something. We work with children and we send them into
:26:13. > :26:22.communities that are segregated. We can't do that. Let's move on. Let's
:26:22. > :26:26.look at your moment of the week. was interested in the campaign to
:26:26. > :26:33.stop the Maze Long Kesh and I think one of the problems in our society
:26:33. > :26:36.is this argument that the Maze Long Kesh site will be a shrine. And
:26:36. > :26:44.there is a Unionist intolerance of this becoming a shrine. There are
:26:44. > :26:54.shrines in our society. If we drive a mile from the studio, we will
:26:54. > :26:55.
:26:55. > :27:01.Segar dens of remembrance. -- we will Segar dens of remembrance. --
:27:01. > :27:04.we will see gardens of remembrance. The one thing that is important -
:27:04. > :27:10.the transformation centre is not going to be a shrine to anything.
:27:11. > :27:15.Your moment of the week - it is a picture? It came this morning. I
:27:15. > :27:19.think we have to applaud and amaze at the photograph on the front-page
:27:19. > :27:23.of the Irish News. Genius photography. I would like to think
:27:23. > :27:32.it was by complete design. It is going to be an iconic image of this
:27:32. > :27:36.year. It is. It is an amazing picture. It is Willy Russell at the
:27:36. > :27:43.launch of the Protestant Coalition. It looks like face painting. But it
:27:43. > :27:47.is not. It is how serious he looks and what he is trying to say and
:27:47. > :27:55.there is that image. What is it they say? A picture says a thousand
:27:55. > :28:00.words. This one does! Yes. Tweet of the week? My tweet of the week, as I
:28:00. > :28:03.understand Pete has yet to discover Twitter, my tweet comes from a
:28:03. > :28:13.wonderful columnist and commentator from across the water called Owen
:28:13. > :28:30.
:28:30. > :28:34.see the start of Lazarus rising aden with Fianna Fail Ard Fheis. We saw
:28:34. > :28:38.Michael Martin talking about the failure of the Executive which is
:28:38. > :28:42.having a poke at Sinn Fein. There is a big fight between them over who is
:28:42. > :28:48.going to win seats. You are look ahead to something we have already
:28:48. > :28:53.touched on? I call upon the Assembly to vote for the call that is coming
:28:53. > :28:56.from Sinn Fein that says they should bring forward the necessary
:28:56. > :28:59.legislation to allow for same-sex marriage and they should continue to
:28:59. > :29:03.bring it forward every six months. Interesting contribution from the
:29:03. > :29:10.Catholic Church? They have every right to voice their views. The
:29:10. > :29:17.Catholic Church is wrong in this instance. You can't have a faith
:29:17. > :29:21.based on love and exclude people. It has upped the ante. Yes.The
:29:21. > :29:25.first time the Catholic Church has written a letter like this? You are
:29:25. > :29:29.trying to hit at those who are faith-driven. If we want a modern,