:00:06. > :00:11.Tonight on The Wales Report, we are at Westminster, asking just how
:00:11. > :00:15.many elected politicians does it take to govern Wales effectively.
:00:15. > :00:20.Is it time for a major rethink? And the price of union membership, we
:00:20. > :00:30.look at the case of the blacklisted Welsh workers, punished for
:00:30. > :00:36.
:00:36. > :00:40.exercising their basic rights. Stay with us. We are at Westminster for
:00:40. > :00:45.the programme, the Prime Minister failed to win approval for his
:00:45. > :00:50.plans to cut the number of MPs and constituencies by 50. We will be
:00:50. > :00:55.discussing the implications for Wales and its main Wales -- layers
:00:55. > :01:02.of government. But first, a scandal affecting many trade unions in
:01:02. > :01:06.Wells involved in the construction industry. That practice of
:01:07. > :01:13.blacklisting has had a devastating effect. As many as 40 building
:01:13. > :01:23.firms were said to be using a name, -- using those names, and there
:01:23. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :01:47.Employers regarded unions as troublemakers and no company bosses
:01:47. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:52.wanted a striker on their hands. Fast-forward 40 years, and it was
:01:52. > :01:56.in the nothing has changed. Throughout the Eighties and
:01:56. > :02:01.Nineties, some of the biggest names in construction used a secret
:02:01. > :02:05.database to vet staff. The secret files contained are the names of
:02:06. > :02:09.more than 3000 construction workers. Detailing their trade union links
:02:09. > :02:14.and whether they had reported health and safety breaches and a
:02:14. > :02:19.whole host of other personal information. Many on the list were
:02:19. > :02:24.branded trouble makers and politically motivated. Others were
:02:24. > :02:29.just on therefore simply raising health and safety concerns and some
:02:29. > :02:32.found it impossible to get work as a result of being on it. When I
:02:32. > :02:37.started on site, when they were jacket -- checking my details, I
:02:37. > :02:40.had been working there for a few days. At the end of my second day,
:02:40. > :02:48.by eight services were not what hat -- required. One a asked the
:02:48. > :02:50.question, I had to press it, it was told -- I was told about its it
:02:50. > :02:54.being about my trade union activities which was active on
:02:54. > :03:00.other sites elsewhere so because of that they refused. They were quite
:03:00. > :03:04.open about it. It was extremely difficult, there were many
:03:04. > :03:08.Christmases that I could not provide what other families could
:03:08. > :03:13.provide, or certainly other people could pride for their families.
:03:13. > :03:17.When I think about that, I become very bitter. This has affected many
:03:17. > :03:21.people's lives. Dramatically. Some people have taken their lives
:03:21. > :03:25.because they think there is no hope for themselves. The existence of
:03:25. > :03:32.the list which was set up by a company called the consulting
:03:32. > :03:35.Association was revealed in 2009. There database was sealed -- seized
:03:35. > :03:38.by the Information Office and the firm was shut down for breaching
:03:39. > :03:43.data protection laws. What was on the list provoked widespread
:03:43. > :03:48.outrage. We believe that this runs into tens of thousands of
:03:48. > :03:52.individuals. We have been unable to put an accurate figure on that,
:03:52. > :03:56.because the information commissioner has refused to tell us
:03:56. > :04:02.how many people are affected, they have also refused to contact those
:04:02. > :04:06.individuals which we think is a scandal. Tonight, we can reveal the
:04:06. > :04:12.full extent of the list's impact on workers across the length and brat
:04:12. > :04:19.of Wales. At least 111 builders and construction tradesmen living or
:04:19. > :04:23.working in Wales were on that list. Details of workers from Anglesey to
:04:23. > :04:27.Denbigh share, right down to Swansea and Cardiff. They were all
:04:27. > :04:30.on the consulting Association list. Many still are not aware of their
:04:30. > :04:35.names were on the list and no one knows exactly what was written
:04:36. > :04:39.about them. That particular list no longer exists. The UK group which
:04:39. > :04:43.represents some of the firms involved say that no company would
:04:43. > :04:48.ever discriminate against a worker for flagging up a health and safety
:04:48. > :04:54.issues. They also say that there is no evidence to suggest that workers
:04:54. > :04:59.are being blacklisted today. But we have been told by one construction
:04:59. > :05:02.worker that it is still going on all over Wales. He does not want us
:05:02. > :05:07.to reveal his identity because he feels speaking out would get him
:05:08. > :05:12.into trouble. Blacklisting has existed for such a long time, and
:05:12. > :05:17.is evident now. I do not think they want any sort of trade unionism at
:05:17. > :05:19.all on site. They prefer to dictate what goes on, and whether there are
:05:20. > :05:24.any concerns from the employee with regards to health and safety or any
:05:24. > :05:27.issues, they would rather undermine that and not have you there. There
:05:28. > :05:31.are many others who also believe that blacklisting is still
:05:31. > :05:37.widespread in the construction centre. They are calling for urgent
:05:38. > :05:41.action. A I think this is a widespread practice, and I would be
:05:41. > :05:45.deeply sceptical about this being the only instance and the only
:05:45. > :05:49.instance which is now finished. Publicly-funded construction
:05:49. > :05:53.project including the Olympic Stadium were built by companies to
:05:53. > :05:59.have admitted using the Consultant Association's lists to recruit
:05:59. > :06:03.staff. So how do we stop that from happening again? There are now
:06:03. > :06:09.calls for the Welsh government to attach conditions to publicly
:06:09. > :06:14.funding Bills, which spell out how recruited -- employees should be
:06:14. > :06:20.recruited. Failure to comply would result in a fine. I believe here in
:06:20. > :06:22.Wales we could do something about procurement policy. We cannot
:06:22. > :06:26.control the private sector procuring goods, there is a massive
:06:26. > :06:33.amount, three to �4 billion of public procurement every year here
:06:33. > :06:37.in Wales. If we can change and affect the way procurement works in
:06:37. > :06:40.Wales, we can make a big difference across Britain. This was a huge
:06:40. > :06:48.crime against thousands and thousands of workers, had without
:06:48. > :06:52.justification. Many working on building sites across Wales now
:06:52. > :06:56.want compensation for what they are calling the unemployable years, and
:06:56. > :07:03.they want the world government and local councils to help them stabbed
:07:03. > :07:07.at blacklisting as a practice -- the Welsh government to help them
:07:07. > :07:10.stamp out blacklisting. Only will those days when being part of a
:07:10. > :07:14.union landed you on a list of undesirables will truly be part of
:07:14. > :07:17.the past. With me now is Corinna Ferguson,
:07:17. > :07:21.legal officer for the civil rights group Liberty. Thank you for
:07:21. > :07:28.joining us. Lots of people will find it difficult to believe that
:07:28. > :07:34.this kind of thing still goes on. To what extent does it go on?
:07:34. > :07:38.we don't know and we are very concerned those operating in those
:07:38. > :07:42.industries do not have -- probably have not been given the deterrent
:07:42. > :07:48.or the penalties the part required to prevent this sort of activity
:07:48. > :07:51.going on in the future. It could be going on now. A there could be some
:07:51. > :07:55.people watching saying, if I'm one of business, I want people working
:07:55. > :08:00.for me he was committed and dedicated, I do not want trouble
:08:00. > :08:05.makers. I want to find out to those workers are that I wished to avoid.
:08:05. > :08:08.What is wrong with that? It seems that the industry definition of a
:08:08. > :08:13.company definition which constitute a troublemaker is someone who is
:08:13. > :08:17.simply eight member of a trade union, perhaps a shop steward. I
:08:17. > :08:21.have seen some of the extract from the blacklist of people who had
:08:21. > :08:25.raised genuine health and safety concerns and we are talking life
:08:25. > :08:29.and death matters, these are people who had have raised a very serious
:08:29. > :08:35.health and safety concerns, in the interests of all the workers on the
:08:35. > :08:39.building sites, and it is not proper grounds to exclude them from
:08:39. > :08:43.employment. We heard on the report there, people saying it still goes
:08:43. > :08:47.on. Is that something that you think government needs to tackle in
:08:47. > :08:51.a more rigorous way? The real issue is that they have not been the
:08:51. > :08:55.penalties in the past two deter companies from doing this, so I
:08:55. > :08:58.would not be at all surprised if they think if they can get away
:08:58. > :09:02.with it. So at the first move, the penalties should be increased
:09:02. > :09:06.drastically? The information commissioner has the power to issue
:09:06. > :09:13.monetary penalties, and they can be quite substantial, into the tens of
:09:13. > :09:16.thousands of pounds. They ought to be doing that if there is any
:09:16. > :09:22.suspicion that companies are engaging in this practice. We do
:09:22. > :09:25.think there are grounds for the information of Commissioner to look
:09:25. > :09:30.at this afresh, given that they did not go into it into any detail in
:09:30. > :09:34.2009. Thank you very much. If David Cameron had his way, there
:09:34. > :09:39.would be fewer MPs here at Westminster representing fewer
:09:39. > :09:44.constituencies. 600 instead of the current 650. Or Wales would lose 10
:09:44. > :09:47.of its 40 MPs, and there would be a new member -- method of collecting
:09:47. > :09:53.members to the National Assembly in Cardiff. Those plans are on hold
:09:53. > :09:57.after the loss of the parliamentary vote. The debate is still very
:09:57. > :10:00.active. Of the governed by too many elected representatives? -- are we
:10:00. > :10:10.governed by too many elected representatives? At the local level,
:10:10. > :10:13.
:10:13. > :10:17.There are business leaders to think so, and a Welsh MEP who thinks so
:10:17. > :10:22.and the Prime Minister thinks there as well. Think what? That Wales is
:10:23. > :10:26.over governed. Councillors to assembly members, MPs and MEPs, a
:10:26. > :10:29.list of world political representatives is long. We asked
:10:29. > :10:35.some -- We are some of the most governed people in the world,
:10:35. > :10:41.totting up 8000 community councillors, 1000 there had -- 1300
:10:41. > :10:45.councillors, more than Scotland, 60 AMs, and that is not touching the
:10:45. > :10:51.non-elected keepers of the public bodies. How many politicians does
:10:51. > :10:54.it take to change all run a country? This week the Prime
:10:54. > :10:58.Minister's attempt to slim down the number of MPs and cut the cost of
:10:58. > :11:04.politics, as he put it, was thwarted at a vote in Westminster.
:11:04. > :11:10.Welsh MPs who would have been floating -- facing a process can
:11:10. > :11:13.breathe easy for now. The notion that Wales has a divine right for
:11:13. > :11:18.40 MPs is a preposterous thing. Some of the arduous that have been
:11:18. > :11:27.heard recently trying to defend the status quo are visible and frankly
:11:27. > :11:33.embarrassing. There is no rational reason why Wales has no -- more MPs
:11:33. > :11:37.per head than any other part of the UK. The idea that 40 is necessary
:11:37. > :11:43.to reflect the cultural diversity and the community spirit which is
:11:43. > :11:50.apparently unique to Wales is just embarrassing. Why should Wales have
:11:50. > :11:54.more MPs per head than England or Scotland or Northern Ireland?
:11:54. > :11:58.devolved Wales, the focus is more and more on how we are governed and
:11:58. > :12:02.by whom. And whisper this, because they know it is the wrong time to
:12:02. > :12:08.say it, but there are those who believe that given the job there is
:12:08. > :12:12.to be done if now here in Cardiff Bay, we need more elected
:12:12. > :12:16.representatives to do it. A number of people have looked at this, most
:12:16. > :12:21.famously the Richard Commission. And have concluded that 80 members
:12:21. > :12:28.is of to them for the assembly. It can work with 60 as we have been
:12:28. > :12:32.proving. I think the best way to look at this is after a week -- if
:12:32. > :12:38.we stick with 60, we can do less than it we could with 80. If people
:12:38. > :12:40.want that, that is fair enough. comes a bit of science, sort of.
:12:40. > :12:46.There is a theory that says most countries throughout the world have
:12:46. > :12:50.ended up with assemblies or first house sounds is that Correspondent
:12:50. > :12:56.-- that corresponds to the cube root of the population, the optimum
:12:56. > :13:01.size. Instead of 60 assembly members, we would end up with 144.
:13:01. > :13:06.Eighties -- is it a case of cuts to tant tears of politics and a boost
:13:06. > :13:10.of others? We have too many politicians in the wrong place, too
:13:10. > :13:13.many MPs and councillors, not enough assembly members. In terms
:13:13. > :13:20.of the second chamber in London, Wales has not represented properly
:13:20. > :13:24.at all. The whole situation is in Congress, inconsistent, irrational.
:13:24. > :13:29.Given that long list of political representatives in debating
:13:29. > :13:33.chambers, towns all over Wales, in Cardiff Bay, Westminster, Brussels,
:13:33. > :13:40.some argue there is a confusion, and duplication event of, of roles
:13:40. > :13:45.between institution. Government is confusing. In modern society, we
:13:45. > :13:48.expect government to do so much that I get confused as to what is
:13:48. > :13:53.the responsibility of MPs and AMs sometimes because sometimes the
:13:53. > :13:57.border is very grey. We have had a bill of the Assembly passed to the
:13:57. > :14:03.Supreme Court to decide whether we have the responsibility or not.
:14:03. > :14:06.MEPs, MPs, AMs, councillors, is this a politician first or
:14:07. > :14:16.essential representation in a compressed so world? If you are of
:14:17. > :14:31.
:14:31. > :14:35.the over governed persuasion, Is Wales over governed? Yes and no.
:14:35. > :14:45.I agree that we have too many local authorities, which was the creation
:14:45. > :14:49.
:14:49. > :14:53.of the former Government. We have 22 -- three national parks, so the
:14:53. > :14:57.numbers are ridiculous. We also have health boards. The answer is
:14:57. > :15:01.to slimline the internal governance of Wales and then deal with the
:15:01. > :15:04.national governance and the external governments. We will come
:15:04. > :15:10.to those in a second. We will deal with the local authority's first,
:15:10. > :15:14.which date back to the 90s. It is a second devolution that does not fit
:15:14. > :15:18.today's settlement. How many should there have been? I think the
:15:18. > :15:25.decision has been made for us by the health structure. Wales should
:15:25. > :15:33.have something in the order of between 5 and 7 counties. That is
:15:33. > :15:38.an enormous reform to undertake. Is there any appetite? I am talking
:15:38. > :15:43.blue skies, well, grey skies. is realistic? What is realistic is
:15:43. > :15:47.for this job to be done by the Welsh local Government association
:15:47. > :15:52.alongside the Welsh Government or indeed the committee or commission
:15:52. > :15:56.of the Assembly and local Government together. So a drastic
:15:56. > :15:59.reduction paired with a significant reduction in the number of MPs at
:15:59. > :16:04.Westminster to 30? Do you think that is realistic? That should have
:16:04. > :16:09.happened already, really, shouldn't it? On the principles that we have
:16:09. > :16:16.heard already. I cannot disagree with that but politically I am
:16:16. > :16:19.supposed to take the other view. I regard the issue of the numbers of
:16:19. > :16:23.members of Parliament as a secondary issue to the issue of the
:16:23. > :16:28.governance of Wales. But you think there should be a reduction and his
:16:28. > :16:31.30 the number you would be happy with? I think it has to be equal
:16:31. > :16:36.throughout United Kingdom and I look at the United Kingdom as a
:16:36. > :16:40.federal state, so that means the second chamber as well needs to
:16:40. > :16:44.reflect the balance. When Scotland changes its relationship in one way
:16:44. > :16:49.or another from the rest of the United Kingdom, then that will be
:16:49. > :16:52.another determining factor. Just to nail that down, the 30 or 40
:16:52. > :16:56.reduction is something you would have been happy with if it had gone
:16:56. > :17:01.through? I am trying to wriggle on that because I did once vote to
:17:01. > :17:06.save the souls of those 10 MPs. as part of the bigger reform?
:17:06. > :17:12.I think there is a deal to be done in a reduction of the number of
:17:12. > :17:15.local councillors, the reform of local Government, but as part of
:17:15. > :17:21.that good deal that also takes account of the number of MPs and
:17:21. > :17:24.the number of Assembly members. What drives the need for more
:17:24. > :17:30.representation in Cardiff is the amount of work that Cardiff now
:17:30. > :17:34.does. We will discuss Cardiff in one second. It may just complete
:17:34. > :17:39.the Westminster picture. What is the nature of Welsh representation
:17:39. > :17:44.to be in the House of Lords in the second chamber? Well, you know, I
:17:44. > :17:48.despair. I was one of the original members of something called
:17:48. > :17:56.Democratic peers, led by my friend Richard, and of course we have not
:17:56. > :18:01.got anywhere. It has all gone into the sand and I very much regret
:18:01. > :18:06.that. Partly because I find being called a Lord an embarrassment. I
:18:06. > :18:09.am a senator, in that sense, and that is not unusual, for people to
:18:09. > :18:14.be members of the National Assembly in their region and also to do work
:18:14. > :18:17.at the state level, or indeed at European level. What would an
:18:17. > :18:21.acceptable level of Welsh representation be in the second
:18:21. > :18:26.chamber? It has to be related to the population. So it would be 5%
:18:26. > :18:32.of the membership of a reformed House. I think that would work very
:18:32. > :18:38.well at 350. The US Senate has much less than that. Cardiff, crucially,
:18:38. > :18:41.given the increasing responsibility being taken on by it National
:18:41. > :18:47.Assembly, are you in favour of an increase in the number of AMs to
:18:47. > :18:50.80? Yes, I was convinced of it in theory when Richard reported. Along
:18:50. > :18:55.with that goes another reform, which is the introduction of the
:18:55. > :18:59.single transferable vote in multi- member constituencies. I am
:18:59. > :19:03.absolutely clear that this division between regional members does not
:19:03. > :19:07.make any sense for the electorate or the political parties. Therefore
:19:07. > :19:12.I think we have to go for that but also convince the people of Wales
:19:12. > :19:16.that it is necessary, at and get agreement across parties. This is
:19:16. > :19:20.how devolution has developed, different to Scotland, in Wales
:19:20. > :19:23.through the last referendum. So it does mean the Conservatives, the
:19:23. > :19:33.Liberal Democrats, Labour and played come we agree in the way
:19:33. > :19:34.
:19:34. > :19:38.forward. It is a challenge. -- and Plaid Cymru. It is a challenge and
:19:38. > :19:48.people tell us constantly that they are fed up with the numbers of
:19:48. > :19:48.
:19:48. > :19:56.politicians. Yes, but we are making laws. The level of governance of a
:19:56. > :20:00.small nation, if you prefer, that is why governments mostly happens.
:20:01. > :20:08.Finally, timescale. What you are talking about his ambitious, Major
:20:08. > :20:15.in scope. By one could such a reform package be implemented? --
:20:15. > :20:19.buy wine? I think by eight the next Assembly elections. How realistic
:20:19. > :20:26.is that? I am pragmatic and realistic but also ambitious for
:20:26. > :20:30.Wales. I do not see effective democracy ever come into the second
:20:30. > :20:33.chamber or even the first chamber in Westminster. I see the challenge
:20:33. > :20:39.that Scotland faces. Whatever happened in the referendum in
:20:39. > :20:43.Scotland, there will be changes in the Government. The Government of
:20:43. > :20:48.Wales must be effective. It must be possible to call Welsh ministers to
:20:48. > :20:52.account more effectively than we do now and to make better Welsh law.
:20:52. > :21:02.What is a point of making Welsh law after 1000 laws if we do not make
:21:02. > :21:08.
:21:09. > :21:11.it better than it has been done in Westminster?
:21:11. > :21:14.Here in London the latest economic data suggests that retailers are
:21:14. > :21:17.weathering the economic storm a little better than other parts of
:21:17. > :21:20.the UK and certainly better than in many parts of Wales. Boarded-up
:21:20. > :21:23.shops, empty town centres, and a rise in out-of-town retail parks is
:21:23. > :21:25.an all-too-familiar scene. Is it already too late to rescue the
:21:25. > :21:35.Welsh High Street? One Welsh businesswoman says she has the
:21:35. > :21:40.answer. More from her in a moment. But first, the voices of Newport
:21:40. > :21:43.and shopkeepers there. In 15 months the foot fall has
:21:43. > :21:47.probably dropped by 25% because of fewer people coming into town
:21:47. > :21:51.because of shops disappearing. We are being pushed out by big
:21:51. > :22:01.companies like Tesco, ASDA, especially my trade personally as
:22:01. > :22:05.if shoe repairer. On the High Street is -- it is not looking good.
:22:05. > :22:12.When my lease runs out it might not be with me staying here. I have
:22:12. > :22:20.worked here for 22 years and I have seen it go from OK to worse.
:22:20. > :22:25.Unfortunately it is becoming much harder, very hard. This town had
:22:25. > :22:29.renovations in 1980, it is now 2013 and nothing has been done. Parking
:22:29. > :22:33.is atrocious and expensive. People cannot afford it and they tend to
:22:33. > :22:38.go out of town. If the Government and the councils do not pull out
:22:38. > :22:42.their fingers, there will be no city centres. We have been here now
:22:42. > :22:49.in the city centre for about eight years. The changes that we have
:22:49. > :22:52.seen have been at the drop in foot fall, and there is nothing being
:22:52. > :22:57.done down this end of the city centre to encourage shoppers down
:22:57. > :23:01.here. They need to do something with the business rates, and until
:23:01. > :23:06.then businesses will be leaving. Newport was starting to go downhill
:23:06. > :23:12.and we have seen that for a year or so. We have got to ride it out to
:23:12. > :23:16.see how long we can go. If anything is not done, within this year, I
:23:16. > :23:26.would not like to say what will happen. I have been here for eight
:23:26. > :23:30.years. About 10 shops have closed in the past couple of weeks, since
:23:30. > :23:40.Christmas. Most people are going. I will be going when my lease runs
:23:40. > :23:42.
:23:42. > :23:45.out. With me now is Laura Tenison, the founder and managing director
:23:45. > :23:51.of maternity wear and children's clothing chain JoJo Maman Bebe.
:23:51. > :23:56.That was depressing. Do you think that is representative? Absolutely.
:23:56. > :24:01.Newport city centre is just tragic. I love Newport, particularly the
:24:01. > :24:06.market. There is a real feel of community there, but over the years
:24:06. > :24:12.it is just dying, dwindling. What has gone wrong? Look at Tesco on
:24:12. > :24:16.the outskirts of town. It has just doubled its footprint, its space.
:24:16. > :24:21.Why? I don't know why we need to have a Tesco that drains everyone
:24:21. > :24:25.away from the city centre with free parking. As the other retailers
:24:25. > :24:29.were saying, the fact that business rates are still quite high, the
:24:29. > :24:33.fact that parking is virtually impossible in the city centre. I go
:24:33. > :24:36.into the town centre because I'm on my way to the station and I am on a
:24:37. > :24:41.bicycle but most people, unless they are on foot, they can't really
:24:41. > :24:45.get into the city centre. There is very little to come in for. The
:24:45. > :24:51.towns that are successful in this country are the towns and suburbs
:24:51. > :24:55.of large cities that have a vibrant local communities. What we want is
:24:55. > :24:59.people living above the shops so that they use the local retailers
:24:59. > :25:04.and form a community. Lots of people watching will say, hang on,
:25:04. > :25:08.we are dealing with the trend that has been going on for over 20 years.
:25:08. > :25:12.Out-of-town shopping centres, people drive to them and find them
:25:12. > :25:16.convenient in many ways. The parking is easy and all the rest of
:25:16. > :25:20.it. It is pie in the sky to talk about reversing that. It will not
:25:20. > :25:25.happen. These town centres need to be helped in a different way,
:25:25. > :25:28.surely. The big shops are not going to come back in, are they?
:25:28. > :25:32.disagree completely. My entire business plan is based on
:25:32. > :25:36.regenerating local high streets. We don't go into out-of-town shopping
:25:36. > :25:41.centres, and that we boycott them. I occasionally go into a shopping
:25:41. > :25:47.scheme, but only when it is city centre. The reason is because I
:25:47. > :25:51.cannot bear the waist. We have these amazing buildings. I know
:25:51. > :25:55.Newport well. The buildings and architecture, the community
:25:55. > :26:00.atmosphere, it is fantastic. But the lack of foot fall means that
:26:00. > :26:07.everything is dying. What we can do is look at the long-term prospects
:26:07. > :26:11.for the city and do not allow any more out-of-town building.
:26:11. > :26:16.Encourage people in with lower rates and good incentives. Why
:26:16. > :26:20.can't we have good, local free parking in the city centre? Are you
:26:20. > :26:24.paying a price for the way that you have gone about this, in business
:26:24. > :26:28.terms? If you had gone into the big out-of-town shopping centres with
:26:28. > :26:33.the high football, would you have done better business? Is that right
:26:33. > :26:37.or wrong? I don't think so because I am filling a gap in the market.
:26:37. > :26:42.We find that if we go into the right towns, there is a lot of
:26:42. > :26:47.passing trade that does not want to put their small children in a calf
:26:47. > :26:54.and drive to an out-of-town shopping centre. -- in a car. In
:26:54. > :26:58.fact people call us up and ask us to come into their town. They don't
:26:58. > :27:03.want to put their toddlers in the car for an hour and dry for an hour
:27:03. > :27:07.to the shops. If you have the shops in your local community, you can
:27:07. > :27:11.have a really nice day out. Shopping centres are very
:27:11. > :27:15.impersonal. How often do have a nice chat with the security guard
:27:15. > :27:21.in a shopping centre? You don't. You walk in and do your business
:27:21. > :27:24.and there is no community atmosphere. In your local town
:27:24. > :27:33.there is a community and this fear and in Newport we can see that
:27:33. > :27:37.still but something has to happen quick otherwise it will be too late.
:27:37. > :27:41.-- community atmosphere. You think there is still some hope? Some
:27:41. > :27:45.people think it is too late. have to act quickly but we have got
:27:45. > :27:49.some success stories. I am opening in Monmouth later in the year,
:27:49. > :27:53.which has a thriving High Street. It has good independent retailers
:27:53. > :27:59.that have been there for years. Actually, even through the tough
:27:59. > :28:03.economic times they have succeeded. We have some small chains coming in.
:28:03. > :28:09.Some national names coming in. Actually I do believe that while I
:28:09. > :28:16.am an independent retailer, I don't happen to have 56 stores, I have
:28:16. > :28:23.grown because I unsuccessful. We have an enormous mail order based
:28:23. > :28:26.as well. If I open in Monmouth, he does not mean that the other
:28:26. > :28:31.retailers will be damaged. It actually means that they will
:28:31. > :28:34.benefit. What is sad about Newport and the High Street there, you
:28:34. > :28:38.don't see many national brands because they have moved to the out-
:28:38. > :28:41.of-town shopping centres. If the council had not given them planning
:28:41. > :28:46.permission to open out of town, they would be in the city centre.
:28:46. > :28:50.They want to get the Newport spent, but they will get it whenever it is
:28:50. > :28:59.most convenient. It is good to hear about a good Welsh success story.
:28:59. > :29:02.Thank you. That's it for this week's programme. We're taking a
:29:02. > :29:05.break next week, it's the big BAFTA night, but remember you can get in