0:00:06 > 0:00:16ask him his priorities for our schools and the Welsh economy. And
0:00:16 > 0:00:26
0:00:26 > 0:00:29how does a man who does not have the Wales Report, a special edition of
0:00:29 > 0:00:33the programme. It is the last edition of the current series and I
0:00:33 > 0:00:39am delighted to welcome the first Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones.
0:00:39 > 0:00:43Thank you for joining us. pleasure. It has been a big week in
0:00:43 > 0:00:48this place, and given the debate on organ donations, it has been the
0:00:48 > 0:00:56strongest statement, if you like, of devolution in action. Do you see it
0:00:56 > 0:00:58that way? I think that is true. was many hours in debating with lots
0:00:58 > 0:01:01of very good and thoughtful contributions. And unusually a
0:01:01 > 0:01:06number of members did not make up their minds until the debate had
0:01:06 > 0:01:10finished, which is always unusual. It was an important piece of
0:01:10 > 0:01:14legislation, a long time in the making, but now we can move ahead
0:01:14 > 0:01:18with it. Interesting, talking to people after what happened, we are
0:01:18 > 0:01:2314 years into the process of devolution and lots of people said
0:01:23 > 0:01:25it was the first time they latched on to the fact that the Welsh
0:01:26 > 0:01:33Assembly had real powers in important areas. If it disappointing
0:01:33 > 0:01:37that we come to this stage and people do not realise that? I think
0:01:37 > 0:01:41people understand free prescriptions and bus passes, and they understand
0:01:41 > 0:01:45that if they come from here, they voted two years ago on a new package
0:01:45 > 0:01:49powers for the Assembly. But unmistakably the vote we had this
0:01:49 > 0:01:54week was particularly important. It led to the news on several channels
0:01:54 > 0:02:00and that is of course a first for this place. Including a very
0:02:00 > 0:02:10important news programme, if I might say. Absolutely, yes.You are
0:02:10 > 0:02:18
0:02:18 > 0:02:21clearly taking pride in that, and lots of people took pride that
0:02:21 > 0:02:23process. Let's talk about the things that people are not taking pride in.
0:02:23 > 0:02:2659,000 pupils in Wales at the moment under process of special measures.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28This is after 14 years of stewardship by the Labour Party in
0:02:28 > 0:02:32Wales. Does that bother you? course and we will do something
0:02:32 > 0:02:35about it, as people will expect. We have a new review, looking at the
0:02:35 > 0:02:39way education is delivered, and we have to look carefully at the number
0:02:39 > 0:02:43of local education authorities in Wales. We have 22 and just about
0:02:43 > 0:02:48everybody agrees that is too much. We have to make that far more
0:02:48 > 0:02:52efficient. When does that happen? The commission that I have set up
0:02:52 > 0:03:02will report by the autumn, and outline possibilities for the
0:03:02 > 0:03:04
0:03:04 > 0:03:07future. In terms of a timetable, we are looking at legislation beyond
0:03:07 > 0:03:092016 because work will need to be done in the meantime. Consultation,
0:03:09 > 0:03:12putting the structure in place, and beyond 2016 we will be able to
0:03:12 > 0:03:16increment it. Is that quick enough? You cannot do these things more
0:03:16 > 0:03:20quickly. It cannot be done overnight. It has to be prepared
0:03:20 > 0:03:24for. We have to think about how many authorities, what the boundaries
0:03:25 > 0:03:30might be, the effects on staff, all these things have to be prepared
0:03:30 > 0:03:33over time. Then of course the legislation comes at the end.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36concentrating on the wrong thing when we look at structure? Some
0:03:36 > 0:03:39people have been saying to us that there is a problem with teaching in
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Welsh schools and the standard of teaching is what feeds into the
0:03:43 > 0:03:48results. It is not to do with overarching structures and local
0:03:48 > 0:03:58authorities but what goes on in the classroom. Are you focusing on that
0:03:58 > 0:04:08
0:04:08 > 0:04:10sufficiently? We are. There are very good examples of superb leadership
0:04:10 > 0:04:12and teaching in schools in Wales. It is making sure that experience is
0:04:12 > 0:04:14spread across Wales that is important. We are introducing a
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Masters qualification in teaching, which will drive up the standard of
0:04:17 > 0:04:19teaching once again. That will ensure we get a better level of
0:04:19 > 0:04:21consistency. It is not all about structure. Structure is important,
0:04:21 > 0:04:24but it is also important to help teachers become better teachers in
0:04:24 > 0:04:28the future. What is the optimum number of authorities in your view?
0:04:28 > 0:04:35Notched 22. It is difficult to put on an absolute figure, probably the
0:04:35 > 0:04:40early teens. As many as that?That is about right. I am not wedded to
0:04:40 > 0:04:45that idea. It may be too few. I have an open mind on those things but I
0:04:45 > 0:04:51do know that 22 is very difficult and certainly too much. Some viewers
0:04:51 > 0:04:56will think that we are starting at a late stage. Reforms are needed,
0:04:56 > 0:05:01reforms because lots of people are behind. But it is 2013. Why are we
0:05:01 > 0:05:08starting at this point? Why was this not started five or seven years ago?
0:05:08 > 0:05:11We could not do it until 2011. We could not do it until we got the
0:05:11 > 0:05:16powers to reorganise the structures of local authorities. We have only
0:05:16 > 0:05:20had the powers since 2011 and now we are able to use them. And you are
0:05:20 > 0:05:30having to think about these without the minister who was driving through
0:05:30 > 0:05:44
0:05:44 > 0:05:46the reforms, Leighton Andrews. Was that a big loss? He was a very
0:05:46 > 0:05:49talented minister and it is unfortunate what happened. No doubt
0:05:49 > 0:05:51he will play an important part in the future. Hugh Lewis is a former
0:05:52 > 0:05:54teacher and he will take forward those reforms. There is no change of
0:05:54 > 0:05:56direction. If Mr Andrews had not resigned, would you have continued
0:05:57 > 0:06:00with him in Government? Yes, that is clear. There will be a clear role
0:06:00 > 0:06:03for him in the future. What did you say to him when he found out he was
0:06:03 > 0:06:07campaigning against your policy and his own policy? It was very
0:06:07 > 0:06:14difficult. If he was to take a decision about school closures, I
0:06:14 > 0:06:20said this would come back. People said what about your constituency
0:06:20 > 0:06:25and it was very difficult. Did you consider sacking him? That would
0:06:25 > 0:06:31have happened in Westminster. resigned. But would you have sacked
0:06:31 > 0:06:34him? The situation did not arise. It would have been very difficult. He
0:06:34 > 0:06:39did resign and I accepted his resignation. These things happen
0:06:39 > 0:06:44from time to time. He is a great campaigner, a great campaigner, and
0:06:44 > 0:06:47he will be very valued in the future. Let's talk about his
0:06:47 > 0:06:51campaigns because he has been campaigning against the health
0:06:52 > 0:06:56policy and health reforms. Hospital reforms, where are you with that?
0:06:56 > 0:06:58Lots of people are very concerned about their local services, about
0:06:58 > 0:07:04whether they are losing their casualty departments. I know that
0:07:04 > 0:07:10from my hometown. Are you focusing on the right areas here? Will people
0:07:10 > 0:07:14suffer because of your reforms? There is no choice. We need a health
0:07:14 > 0:07:18service that is safe and sustainable in the future. The reconfiguration
0:07:18 > 0:07:23that is driven forward is driven by clinicians, not politicians, in the
0:07:23 > 0:07:29teeth of opposition from doctors and nurses. People are not impressed by
0:07:29 > 0:07:32it. The doctors are. It is clinically driven. All of the
0:07:32 > 0:07:37departments tell me that the present structure will not work in the
0:07:37 > 0:07:41future. If you are a politician, do you ignore what you are being told
0:07:41 > 0:07:47by consultants? Do you listen to their professional views and then
0:07:47 > 0:07:50structure casualty in a way that is safer for people and for
0:07:50 > 0:07:55sustainable? You are listening to them but you have to answer to your
0:07:55 > 0:07:59own voters and people that are accessing those services. Some of
0:07:59 > 0:08:02these services will not exist in the future in the form they are in
0:08:02 > 0:08:06today. Are you telling me you are not mindful of what voters are
0:08:06 > 0:08:10thinking and you are just taking advice from clinicians and other
0:08:10 > 0:08:15people in the profession? You are bound to be mindful of what voters
0:08:15 > 0:08:19are thinking. I would have thought so. That does not mean that things
0:08:19 > 0:08:29can continue as they are. This is a problem across the UK, not just
0:08:29 > 0:08:56
0:08:56 > 0:08:58Wales. It is the easiest thing for a politician to do, to leave things as
0:08:58 > 0:09:02they are when there is controversy. The service will collapse in the
0:09:02 > 0:09:04future. We can't do it. It would not be fair on the people that depend on
0:09:04 > 0:09:06those services. Why is it so difficult to draw people into the
0:09:06 > 0:09:09medical profession in Wales? It is a problem elsewhere, you are right,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12but it is certainly an acute problem in Wales and more of a problem in
0:09:12 > 0:09:14some areas. People say poor training and bad working conditions. What
0:09:14 > 0:09:17makes Wales unattractive? It is not as though we have an enormous number
0:09:17 > 0:09:19of vacancies. The problem is trying to recruit people. In England, the
0:09:19 > 0:09:21problem does not happen because there are so many fewer casualty
0:09:21 > 0:09:24departments per head of population and we have so many. We cannot magic
0:09:24 > 0:09:27up consultants. People tell us to train new doctors, which we are
0:09:27 > 0:09:29trying to do, but they can travel anywhere in the world. We are trying
0:09:29 > 0:09:31to recruit consultants into Wales because of the quality of life,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34working conditions and training conditions. Doctors are saying to us
0:09:34 > 0:09:39that reconfiguration is the best way of achieving those goals. Bringing
0:09:39 > 0:09:43more people in as trainees, where they will see more opportunities and
0:09:43 > 0:09:46get more experience, and creating more situations where people feel
0:09:46 > 0:09:56they can flourish professionally in our casual to departments. They are
0:09:56 > 0:10:06
0:10:06 > 0:10:08telling us that unless we move forward with certain changes, then
0:10:08 > 0:10:11those conditions will not exist in the future that is bad for
0:10:11 > 0:10:13everybody. Casualty departments are such a hot topic. What do you say to
0:10:13 > 0:10:16people in areas where they are confronted with a big change in the
0:10:16 > 0:10:19kind of service they have got used to over the years? We can move
0:10:19 > 0:10:21casual to departments, have a more serious 115 miles away, there is no
0:10:21 > 0:10:25threat to life and it is not dangerous. Those reassurances do not
0:10:25 > 0:10:31wash with people. Even the changes that have been proposed, and there
0:10:31 > 0:10:35have been no decisions yet of course, do not suggest closing
0:10:35 > 0:10:39casual to departments. It is downgrading. We are not suggesting
0:10:39 > 0:10:43they will not be 24-hour departments. You can still go to
0:10:43 > 0:10:47them. There will be changes, but then we have always done that. If
0:10:47 > 0:10:51you have severe burns, you go to Swansea, which has always been the
0:10:51 > 0:10:55case, no matter where you live in South Wales. For serious head injury
0:10:55 > 0:11:01commie go to Cardiff, which is where the expertise is. If I have a
0:11:01 > 0:11:06serious head injury in Bridgend, I would be to Cardiff. We have always
0:11:06 > 0:11:10had a reconfiguration of services where expertise... You try to make
0:11:10 > 0:11:15them as local as possible, of course you do. But you need to have
0:11:15 > 0:11:20expertise in one place to have a better outcome. If that means going
0:11:20 > 0:11:23ten or 15 miles, which is the biggest distance possible to be
0:11:23 > 0:11:28travelled, to give people a better chance of surviving, we need to look
0:11:29 > 0:11:34at that. Why are people not buying that argument? Why are they so
0:11:34 > 0:11:42sensitive about the downgrading of services? It is bright. I understand
0:11:42 > 0:11:47that, our hospital, our area. -- it is pride. People do not understand
0:11:47 > 0:11:51the medical profession, not wilfully, but you have to say to
0:11:51 > 0:11:55people that you cannot just recruit doctors off the tree somewhere. We
0:11:55 > 0:11:58have to make sure that services are sustainable so that we can recruit
0:11:58 > 0:12:02enough doctors in one place to provide that service but also make
0:12:02 > 0:12:06sure they are safer. Years ago the medical profession was different.
0:12:06 > 0:12:13Now medics increasingly want to see enough cases coming through casual
0:12:13 > 0:12:18to departments to get enough experience of treating those cases.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21If the hospitals do not provide that experience, the doctors leave. The
0:12:21 > 0:12:26trainees then don't come. It is difficult to explain it to people
0:12:26 > 0:12:30but that is the reality, unfortunately. At what point do you
0:12:30 > 0:12:35decide that a health board is too big, too unwieldy, too inefficient
0:12:35 > 0:12:39to continue as it is? At what point does it make more sense to split
0:12:39 > 0:12:49something up? There is no evidence of that at the moment. The
0:12:49 > 0:12:51
0:12:51 > 0:12:54commission that I have set up has been asked to look at the governance
0:12:54 > 0:12:57of the health boards but not that their boundaries. We went from 22
0:12:57 > 0:12:59health boards to the number that we have now. We have to be mindful of
0:12:59 > 0:13:02not reorganising the health service once again and the disruption that
0:13:02 > 0:13:07that would cause. It is important to make sure these structures work.
0:13:07 > 0:13:14these problems manageable? Are they explainable, justifiable? There
0:13:14 > 0:13:18needs to be a change, clearly, about management, but it is not as though
0:13:18 > 0:13:27every health board is going through the same difficulties as the biggest
0:13:27 > 0:13:33one. The other boards are not as big. In terms of population, they
0:13:33 > 0:13:36are. Having the right leadership is key. We see this with schools. The
0:13:36 > 0:13:40difference fresh leadership can make in a school is phenomenal. The same
0:13:40 > 0:13:45applies to the health service and anywhere in the public sector.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49view expressed by many experts about the biggest health board is to do
0:13:49 > 0:13:59with its size and its manageability, and you think the shape of it is
0:13:59 > 0:14:05
0:14:05 > 0:14:12fine? Is there an optimum size? Probably not. In terms of being able
0:14:12 > 0:14:17to provide the services it needs to provide, at the moment I would argue
0:14:17 > 0:14:24that the boundaries are right. Looking at the performance that are
0:14:24 > 0:14:27going to be on the table. Your colleague Owen Smith for example,
0:14:27 > 0:14:36campaigning against elements of that policy. How do you manage that
0:14:36 > 0:14:41process? It is quite clear that as a political party Welsh Labour, it is
0:14:41 > 0:14:49natural. There is no one hospital being forwarded in terms of
0:14:49 > 0:14:58another. The name of the party should not be attached to campaigns
0:14:58 > 0:15:04like that. Why are people out on the streets? I have spoken to people who
0:15:04 > 0:15:10think that the hospitals are going to close. Quite often people will
0:15:10 > 0:15:15fear the worst, I understand that. I have taken the time to speak to
0:15:15 > 0:15:24people to say, this is the situation. So Owen Smith has
0:15:24 > 0:15:29misunderstood the situation? People can make representations on behalf
0:15:29 > 0:15:36of hospitals in their own area, I have no difficulty with that.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40do not want to see them out on the street? It is important that people
0:15:40 > 0:15:45do not get the idea that Welsh Labour Party has a particular view
0:15:45 > 0:15:52in terms of hospitals. And there is no threat to the accident and
0:15:52 > 0:15:57emergency departments. Clearly the big umbrella is man -- is money.
0:15:57 > 0:16:05Having been in this post since the last election, what is your death
0:16:05 > 0:16:12now on the balance, if you like. Do you have the levers that you need,
0:16:12 > 0:16:17with all the debate about needing powers to borrow, do you have the
0:16:17 > 0:16:22economic levers that you need? are never going to have all the
0:16:22 > 0:16:30economic levers. Some will stay with the UK government, and many are
0:16:30 > 0:16:37outside of the control of the UK government. When we seek new powers
0:16:37 > 0:16:42we do it for a reason. For example arriving. We should be able to
0:16:42 > 0:16:46borrow to a limit. In the same way as Scotland and Northern Ireland.
0:16:46 > 0:16:51That is important because there will be some projects, transport for
0:16:51 > 0:16:58example, that will need to be taken through in Wales in the next few
0:16:58 > 0:17:04years. And the money can only come through borrowing. The argument put
0:17:05 > 0:17:12forward by the Treasury is that you need a source of revenue. Northern
0:17:12 > 0:17:18Ireland does not have that. So our argument has been stamp duty, but it
0:17:18 > 0:17:25very important. And we would argue passenger duty as well. That would
0:17:25 > 0:17:34give us around 200 million of an income stream. I just go into as
0:17:34 > 0:17:41quickly, wide did you purchase Cardiff airport? -- why. The airport
0:17:41 > 0:17:49would have closed, it was being run down. And hundreds of jobs would
0:17:49 > 0:17:57have gone with it. It is important for the country to have an airport.
0:17:57 > 0:18:03Some people geographically, do not use Cardiff airport. But when I go
0:18:03 > 0:18:09abroad I'm often asked, does Wales have an international airport? And
0:18:09 > 0:18:14if it did not then that would reflect badly. If you have an
0:18:14 > 0:18:24international airport you are taken seriously. But nobody uses it.I
0:18:24 > 0:18:27disagree. The percentage of passengers has increased by 9%. We
0:18:28 > 0:18:34understand that it is still a long way short of the store. Money has
0:18:34 > 0:18:41been putting to refurbish the arrivals area and that has gone down
0:18:41 > 0:18:45well. We are looking at the road system outside the terminal which
0:18:45 > 0:18:51frankly looks unwelcoming. There is an issue about the state of the
0:18:51 > 0:18:59terminal building itself. Airlines are looking at the airport as an
0:18:59 > 0:19:04investment. If you are an airline and the building looks as if it is
0:19:04 > 0:19:11in a bit of a state you are going to think, passengers are not going to
0:19:11 > 0:19:17come here. If you are a passenger and have to log -- to walk along way
0:19:17 > 0:19:21from the car park, these things have two be addressed. Is that enough to
0:19:21 > 0:19:27bring some of those big airlines back from Bristol to Cardiff with
0:19:27 > 0:19:32Mike because without that do accept that it is not going to look like a
0:19:32 > 0:19:36flourishing economic prospect? Discussions at taking place at the
0:19:36 > 0:19:40moment. Landing charges are important. There was a very rigid
0:19:40 > 0:19:45structure in place before and that is now being changed. The idea is
0:19:46 > 0:19:53not to buy an airport and kissed the money goodbye. We will subsidise it,
0:19:53 > 0:19:58no question. But we are looking for commercial operators to coming into
0:19:58 > 0:20:04partnership with us. Perhaps to bike path of the airport so that the
0:20:04 > 0:20:08money comes back that quickly. And there is interest out there, large
0:20:08 > 0:20:12operators who do have that interest. I would have been worried if they
0:20:12 > 0:20:17had been no interest from the commercial sector, but it is. It is
0:20:17 > 0:20:23just a question of taking it through a very difficult period. To go back
0:20:23 > 0:20:33to where we wear for that exchange, and in the same context, if you have
0:20:33 > 0:20:38the power to borrow, what more then can you do? What would your ambition
0:20:38 > 0:20:44be, five years down the line? What kind of things would you be looking
0:20:44 > 0:20:51to do with that extra money? Mainly infrastructure. The other aspect is
0:20:51 > 0:20:57the Severn Bridge. If you can borrow, you can invest not just in
0:20:57 > 0:21:02transport infrastructure but digital infrastructure as well, to create
0:21:02 > 0:21:09the conditions for economic growth. We are not seeking some enormous
0:21:09 > 0:21:14fiscal power, but it could be used in a targeted way. Looking at
0:21:14 > 0:21:22motorways, for example, the railways, all those games. Along
0:21:22 > 0:21:26with broadband. Is that the key element that Wales economically is
0:21:26 > 0:21:33dragging behind the rest of the UK? It has not trapped behind, we are
0:21:33 > 0:21:38doing better than other areas such as the North East of England. The
0:21:38 > 0:21:44employment rate in Wales is lower than London for example. But we do
0:21:44 > 0:21:48want to do better. For me the big challenge is not just transport
0:21:48 > 0:21:52infrastructure but broadband. If you put in place a fastball band
0:21:52 > 0:21:59structure then people can set up the business anywhere they want. They do
0:21:59 > 0:22:05not have to move out of Wales. It is the equivalent of what the railway
0:22:05 > 0:22:12lines used to be in the 19th century. The economic benefits would
0:22:12 > 0:22:19the enormous. In the next few weeks, when you talk about delivery in the
0:22:19 > 0:22:24year ahead, in the position of First Minister who does not have a
0:22:24 > 0:22:28majority in the assembly, how much of a handicap is that? And does that
0:22:28 > 0:22:34podcast doubt over any ambitions that you express? Well we have
0:22:34 > 0:22:41managed so far. But as I said in this very building the day after the
0:22:41 > 0:22:44election, we want to work with the other parties. We have tried to do
0:22:44 > 0:22:50that to get legislation through. We have worked with other parties on
0:22:50 > 0:22:56the budget. We are aware that we do not have an overall majority. But it
0:22:56 > 0:23:02is not like Westminster. I would argue there is far more working
0:23:03 > 0:23:07between parties. Were used to the fact that for 14 years there has not
0:23:07 > 0:23:13been a party with an overall majority. Are you unsettled or
0:23:13 > 0:23:18anxious about the fact that the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru
0:23:19 > 0:23:25have decided to put on a united front to discuss budget options with
0:23:25 > 0:23:30you? I am not surprised. In some ways I am surprised it has taken
0:23:30 > 0:23:35them that long. They have decided their strongest position is to work
0:23:35 > 0:23:40together but that is a matter for them. What is important is that we
0:23:40 > 0:23:46have a budget for the end of the year that reflects the priorities of
0:23:46 > 0:23:51the government, yes, but of some other parties as well. That is the
0:23:51 > 0:23:56way budget negotiations are conducted here. Give me one thing is
0:23:56 > 0:24:01for viewers to latch onto and come back in one year to say, Carwyn
0:24:01 > 0:24:07Jones said he would do this. Something that would be symbolic of
0:24:07 > 0:24:13his determination? It would be investment in the economy.
0:24:14 > 0:24:19Investment into Wales by companies overseas. That has been driven by
0:24:19 > 0:24:25the fact that we have gone out there and sold Wales in a way that has not
0:24:25 > 0:24:30been done in a few years. We work of course with the UK government to
0:24:30 > 0:24:36promote Wales and that is important. It is to seek more money and more
0:24:36 > 0:24:42jobs coming into Wales. That is what I ask people to judge me on. We will
0:24:42 > 0:24:47come back and measure that. Thank you for talking to us. Just some of
0:24:47 > 0:24:51the challenges facing the First Minister and the Welsh government in
0:24:51 > 0:24:55the year to come. We will be back in the autumn to examine any progress
0:24:55 > 0:25:00because this is the last edition of the programme for this series. Over