:00:15. > :00:17.Tonight on the Wales report: Is Wales a haven for zero-hours
:00:18. > :00:19.contracts? Are Welsh workers particularly
:00:20. > :00:22.vulnerable to being exploited? We have new evidence.
:00:23. > :00:24.Could the answer to reviving some of our local economies be staring us in
:00:25. > :00:26.the face? have new evidence.
:00:27. > :00:28.Could the answer We look at some home-grown solutions.
:00:29. > :00:31.And, is Wales serious about its iconic buildings? We'll be asking if
:00:32. > :00:36.the time has come for a national blueprint.
:00:37. > :00:40.Stay with us for the Wales Report. Good evening and welcome to the
:00:41. > :00:43.Wales Report, where we examine the issues affecting lives in Wales, and
:00:44. > :00:54.question some of the decision makers. On tonight 's programme: We
:00:55. > :00:56.start with the significant task of revising the economies of
:00:57. > :01:02.communities right across Wales. In the moment we will look at one of
:01:03. > :01:06.the problems of the alleged exploitation of workers on 0-hours
:01:07. > :01:09.contracts. Before that let us consider the possibility that the
:01:10. > :01:14.solution to some of our economic problems is staring us in the face.
:01:15. > :01:17.Karel Williams of Manchester Business School is calling for a
:01:18. > :01:22.sharp local focus to reverse the trend that sees Wales lagging behind
:01:23. > :01:25.other parts of the UK. That means less emphasis on inward
:01:26. > :01:27.investment and more emphasis on local business initiatives, keeping
:01:28. > :01:30.money in local areas. Professor Williams has been back to his
:01:31. > :01:41.hometown of Llanelli to explore the potential benefits.
:01:42. > :01:46.I have come back to Llanelli. I was brought up here and my father was
:01:47. > :01:51.they get here for 20 years. I went to the local grammar school and then
:01:52. > :01:56.a lifetime later I am a professor at Manchester business School and my
:01:57. > :02:01.research is partly about how places like Llanelli can find a more
:02:02. > :02:05.sustainable and prosperous future. Coming back to where you grew up is
:02:06. > :02:10.always a troubling experience because the place you know no longer
:02:11. > :02:16.exists, it has been rebuilt and upgraded. But this place looks at --
:02:17. > :02:21.this place looks as if it has gone backwards. I remember this street in
:02:22. > :02:27.the 1960s, full of affluent factory workers. If the affluence has gone,
:02:28. > :02:37.what strategies and policies do we need to restore prosperity to
:02:38. > :02:43.Llanelli? Deindustrialisation is an ugly word and in Llanelli there is
:02:44. > :02:49.one place that symbolises it. The tin plate Works opened in 1951 and
:02:50. > :02:56.employed 2000 in its heyday. Now it is closer to 500. The site is not
:02:57. > :03:02.empty. They built a retail park here and it is sucking the heart out of
:03:03. > :03:07.Llanelli because the retail spend goes out of town and the community
:03:08. > :03:14.in return gets low-wage jobs, which is part of a wider British problem.
:03:15. > :03:21.60% of the jobs created since 2010 in the UK have been in low-wage
:03:22. > :03:27.retail and hospitality. So, what is to be done? Here we are at a
:03:28. > :03:32.crossroads. The old response was to crust -- trust in inward investment
:03:33. > :03:37.which would bring new success in tradable goods. Inward investments
:03:38. > :03:41.come and go and it is now time to question the idea that our future
:03:42. > :03:49.can be built on inward investment and exported goods. So, there is a
:03:50. > :03:55.new interest in managing what is left of the Welsh economy, what I
:03:56. > :04:01.call the foundational economy, the sheltered economy of services, of
:04:02. > :04:06.retail and utilities, of health and education. In Llanelli and many
:04:07. > :04:11.other places in Wales, that is what left -- that is what is left and
:04:12. > :04:16.managing what is left is the key to better services and better jobs. 15
:04:17. > :04:21.miles up the road from the tin works is the best of the alternative, a
:04:22. > :04:27.cafe which is meeting local social services. We put money together to
:04:28. > :04:31.start a cafe to develop a business for people with learning
:04:32. > :04:36.disabilities and other disadvantaged members of our community. It is
:04:37. > :04:40.worthwhile in itself but it is also tackling the problem of scaling
:04:41. > :04:44.things up so we have a chain and plans to franchise its model. We
:04:45. > :04:49.have five groups at the moment interested in starting one in their
:04:50. > :04:52.areas and we thought rather than repeating ourselves over and over
:04:53. > :04:57.again we thought we would come up with a business in a box that
:04:58. > :05:02.requires all the policies and procedures that they need to run
:05:03. > :05:07.from day one. We will not get far until we challenge the business
:05:08. > :05:13.models of the major players. Think of the supermarkets. There is a
:05:14. > :05:17.superstar -- a superstore on a roundabout near you. Their business
:05:18. > :05:22.model means a spend of ?75 per household per week and you can
:05:23. > :05:27.almost hear the giant sucking sound of money crossing the bridge. We
:05:28. > :05:32.need to build local supply chains that keep the money here where it is
:05:33. > :05:38.useful and needed for infrastructural things like social
:05:39. > :05:41.housing we need to think about keeping pension funds here, not
:05:42. > :05:48.sending them off to London and we need to think about low, steady,
:05:49. > :05:53.secure returns on socially useful projects. Let us not argue that the
:05:54. > :05:58.Welsh government needs more money and more power. What we need to do
:05:59. > :06:01.is change the limits on what is politically thinkable and
:06:02. > :06:04.economically doable in Wales. That is how Wales can win.
:06:05. > :06:09.Professor Karel Williams in Llanelli. That was plenty of food
:06:10. > :06:12.for thought. Joining me now is the businessman
:06:13. > :06:15.and co-founder of Hiett Denim, David Hieatt, and the chair of the
:06:16. > :06:24.Assembly's Enterprise and business committee Nick Ramsay. Thank you for
:06:25. > :06:28.coming in. David, to you first ball as someone who is famously
:06:29. > :06:33.responsible for a successful business model. Does it make sense
:06:34. > :06:38.to you to talk almost exclusively in terms of local solutions to local
:06:39. > :06:43.problems. I think what that film touched on was a doughnut town where
:06:44. > :06:49.the supermarkets create a hole in the middle. I have been thinking
:06:50. > :06:53.about this on the train on the here today and in Cardigan town the way
:06:54. > :07:01.they have worked out to beat that is by being better. We will not change
:07:02. > :07:05.habits by the sentiment alone. A town house to have a vibrant culture
:07:06. > :07:11.business, new businesses because old businesses have died there. The
:07:12. > :07:18.biggest employer in Cardigan, the old jeans factory, closed in 2001
:07:19. > :07:22.and many jobs went. We have created just a few jobs so we are just a
:07:23. > :07:27.small part of the answer as so we need many other companies to get
:07:28. > :07:32.back to where we were in 2001. Partly the answer is local. You
:07:33. > :07:38.cannot deny that the supermarkets and chains will not go away. And
:07:39. > :07:43.what do you think, the model simply is not working, life is being sucked
:07:44. > :07:48.out of these town centres and Llanelli is just one example. We are
:07:49. > :07:51.not really focusing on the local economic opportunities that there
:07:52. > :07:55.are. You can understand the anger. If you look at what has happened to
:07:56. > :08:02.many town centres across Wales in the last decades then, yes, things
:08:03. > :08:07.have got to change. I liked a lot of the ideas. The idea of more localism
:08:08. > :08:13.is a good one and the idea that it is not constantly about saying that
:08:14. > :08:16.we need more powers, but to shut the door on inward investment, I
:08:17. > :08:22.certainly would not do that. You need a balanced economy, it is a
:08:23. > :08:26.mixture of the larger economies and the supermarkets but also promoting
:08:27. > :08:29.and supporting the smaller businesses. I think he was maybe
:08:30. > :08:35.saying not about shutting the door but that we were over dependent on
:08:36. > :08:39.that notion of inward investment. That has made us blind to
:08:40. > :08:43.opportunities that were there. That cafe talked about the business in a
:08:44. > :08:49.box that you can franchise easily. Could that translate into a more
:08:50. > :08:53.successful model on a bigger scale, not just to do with cafes? What
:08:54. > :08:58.scales really well is when someone does something very well. In Bristol
:08:59. > :09:03.Bay have a Bristol pound. That currency can only be spent with
:09:04. > :09:07.independent shops and it is actually very successful. You cannot spend
:09:08. > :09:11.that money outside of Bristol and I think it is a really clever way of
:09:12. > :09:15.trying to keep the money into the town because it makes a lot of sense
:09:16. > :09:20.and creates a lot of jobs. A big controversy in the last few days to
:09:21. > :09:24.do with finance, Finance Wales is supposed to be helping businesses in
:09:25. > :09:28.Wales and there is criticism of how it has been run and how it is
:09:29. > :09:32.operating. Do you share those concerns and think that in the
:09:33. > :09:36.context of trying to help business, lots of them are desperate for
:09:37. > :09:41.funding source and do you think the picture in Wales is healthy enough?
:09:42. > :09:45.Businesses have been telling me and other assembly members for a long
:09:46. > :09:48.time now that they had big concerns about Finance Wales and concerns
:09:49. > :09:55.about their interest rates. Some of them are up to 12%. My party and I
:09:56. > :09:58.think, and the wider community thinks, that although Finance Wales
:09:59. > :10:04.might have been fit for purpose once, it is not now. It is not
:10:05. > :10:08.addressing the needs of businesses. There was scathing criticism of it
:10:09. > :10:13.in that it was giving out loans but it did not have an eye or focus on
:10:14. > :10:20.economic development in Wales. For business to flourish funding sources
:10:21. > :10:27.are crucial. What is your take on the easel difficulty of getting
:10:28. > :10:31.funding? Ideas need funding. I can only talk about Finance Wales in
:10:32. > :10:36.terms of my experience and actually they helped to fund me and it was
:10:37. > :10:42.very successful funding and they were very good to work for so I can
:10:43. > :10:46.only say I found. But if you are an ideas person, new need an idea and
:10:47. > :10:52.you need to build a team and get funding. The access to funding, not
:10:53. > :10:58.just in Wales, but in Britain is tough. Finance Wales has been to
:10:59. > :11:02.distance. In the report there is a recommendation that there should be
:11:03. > :11:07.a new development bank and whatever form that is, and the committee have
:11:08. > :11:11.not looked at this yet, what ever form it takes there is a strong
:11:12. > :11:16.argument to somehow localise Finance Wales and make it more public facing
:11:17. > :11:19.and more business friendly so that in the same way if you went into a
:11:20. > :11:23.bank in your high street and ask for a loan then the business should be
:11:24. > :11:34.able to access that information locally. A lot of businesses are
:11:35. > :11:37.made to go to talk to a faceless bureaucrat and that puts a lot of
:11:38. > :11:45.companies off at the early stage. Thank you for coming in. There are
:11:46. > :11:46.fears that more Welsh workers are being exploited by a
:11:47. > :11:49.highly-controversial type of employment contract which doesn't
:11:50. > :11:52.specify any hours of work. It's called a zero-hours contract,
:11:53. > :11:55.and it's seen by many as powerful tool for employers, which leaves
:11:56. > :11:58.workers vulnerable. Some experts warn that the number of people
:11:59. > :12:01.working on these contracts could be much higher than previously thought,
:12:02. > :12:04.and they seem to be particularly prevalent in Wales. There are calls
:12:05. > :12:16.for the Welsh government to step in and review the practice, as Helen
:12:17. > :12:21.Callaghan reports. They are the contracts causing
:12:22. > :12:26.controversy all across the UK and affecting the lives of many
:12:27. > :12:30.thousands of Welsh workers. Anyone on a 0-hours contract is not
:12:31. > :12:36.guaranteed a minimum amount of work. They do not know when they will be
:12:37. > :12:39.working or for how long. This woman who wants to remain anonymous was
:12:40. > :12:52.employed on one of these contracts by a Welsh council and says that the
:12:53. > :12:58.uncertainty was hugely stressful. You could be shopping or anywhere
:12:59. > :13:02.and get a call asking you to work that afternoon. She was working in
:13:03. > :13:06.the care sector and says that the 0-hours contract was not bad for her
:13:07. > :13:11.but it was also bad for the vulnerable children she was helping
:13:12. > :13:15.to look after because there was no continuity of care. I do not think
:13:16. > :13:22.it does any good for the service user, irrespective of what the
:13:23. > :13:27.service is. They can put people at risk. These contracts tend to be
:13:28. > :13:32.more common in the public sector, in areas like air, catering, cleaning
:13:33. > :13:37.and labouring and since one quarter of Welsh jobs are in the public
:13:38. > :13:38.sector, many believe that workers in Wales are disproportionately
:13:39. > :13:43.affected. At the moment no one is really sure
:13:44. > :13:48.how many people in Wales are working in this way. Recent estimates range
:13:49. > :13:54.from 40,000 to 55000 and many think the true figure could be much
:13:55. > :13:59.higher. The public service union has contacted every council in Wales in
:14:00. > :14:06.order to arrange an urgent meeting about these contracts. It wants
:14:07. > :14:09.better protection for workers. I hope the leaders and chief
:14:10. > :14:15.executives agreed to discuss the situation we are facing so that we
:14:16. > :14:20.can have some compliance and control around the use of these contracts.
:14:21. > :14:24.The unions are not the only ones calling for more to be done. One
:14:25. > :14:29.employment charity believes that when councils use private firms to
:14:30. > :14:33.do work for them, they should ensure that those on the these are not
:14:34. > :14:39.using anything resembling zero-hours contracts. I know of organisations
:14:40. > :14:43.where they are using these contracts, but they do not want to
:14:44. > :14:47.be, and the only reason they feel forced into going down that road, is
:14:48. > :14:51.because that is the only way they feel they can compete for public
:14:52. > :14:57.contracts. Recently, the Labour Party leader said that if they win
:14:58. > :15:02.the next general election, they will immediately move to restrict the use
:15:03. > :15:06.of zero-hours contracts. We know we have an epidemic in this country of
:15:07. > :15:13.zero-hours contracts. Exploitation at work. We should say yes to
:15:14. > :15:17.flexibility, but no to exploitation. And nowhere is that more true than
:15:18. > :15:23.when it comes to zero-hours contracts. But many are now saying
:15:24. > :15:27.that the Welsh Labour Government could take the lead here by issuing
:15:28. > :15:32.guidelines which could advise local authorities not to employ people and
:15:33. > :15:37.zero-hours contracts, or report contracts to companies which use
:15:38. > :15:40.them. What we would like to see, and what we will be asking the Welsh
:15:41. > :15:45.governments to do, is to issue a statement confirming that they will
:15:46. > :15:51.look at zero-hours contracts and they will look at ringing in some
:15:52. > :15:56.form of control around zero-hours contracts. -- bringing in. The
:15:57. > :16:01.concern is that, without such intervention in Wales, and in the
:16:02. > :16:05.present climate of spending cutbacks, money will be saved by
:16:06. > :16:09.using more and more casual zero-hours contracts, with the
:16:10. > :16:17.result being more and more people facing the worry of not knowing if
:16:18. > :16:22.they have a secure job. I generally have a good 37 hours per job. Then
:16:23. > :16:27.my father had a brain haemorrhage. Iranian to explain the situation and
:16:28. > :16:31.I did not get any more shifts -- I rang him to explain the situation
:16:32. > :16:42.and I did not get any more ships even though I said I was available.
:16:43. > :16:48.Joining me now is Assembly member Vaughan Gething. Thank you for
:16:49. > :16:55.coming. Are there any circumstances in which these zero-hours contracts
:16:56. > :16:59.can be justified? Yes. You see, some of these contracts are generally
:17:00. > :17:08.flexible and they do not exploit the worker themselves. For example,
:17:09. > :17:17.someone would describe some supply jobs as not being exploited.
:17:18. > :17:21.Sometimes there is a requirement to accept work, and the real problem
:17:22. > :17:25.comes when there are especially low-paid workers, because regardless
:17:26. > :17:29.of the legal ins and outs, if that is work that you rely upon, and if
:17:30. > :17:35.you are called to do it at short notice, you may be afraid to turn it
:17:36. > :17:39.down. I accept there are real issues of exhortation that take place,
:17:40. > :17:42.especially in care work in retail and cleaning, so we realise this is
:17:43. > :17:50.a present challenge facing many workers in Wales and the rest of the
:17:51. > :17:53.UK. And the response should be? I think we should have legal reform,
:17:54. > :17:59.and that requires Parliament to act. We should have a ban on zero-hours
:18:00. > :18:04.contracts, where they will require exclusive performance. We should
:18:05. > :18:10.then contracts like this at do not have a mutuality of obligations, so
:18:11. > :18:15.that's work must be provided in that sense. We should see a band on a
:18:16. > :18:18.situation where you are required to take these types of contracts when
:18:19. > :18:22.you actually worked much more regular hours. That is difficult,
:18:23. > :18:28.because giving people right is one thing, having them enforced is quite
:18:29. > :18:31.another. What do you say to local authorities in Wales about
:18:32. > :18:38.guidance, are you actually being as rigorous as you should be in terms
:18:39. > :18:40.of using these contracts customer -- contracts? The West Government has
:18:41. > :18:46.been pretty clear that we do not support the use of these types of
:18:47. > :18:54.contracts. The calls from the unions are interesting, because the forum
:18:55. > :18:59.to have discussed is part of a Council -- is involved in part of a
:19:00. > :19:07.Council in which these issues that discuss the strap broke -- a Council
:19:08. > :19:18.in which these things can be examined. Do you think this issue is
:19:19. > :19:22.being examined as energetically as it might be? You are talking about
:19:23. > :19:25.partnerships and all the rest of it. Is there something more proactive
:19:26. > :19:28.you could be doing? The guidance that could come from the Council is
:19:29. > :19:33.guidance from the Government, which would meet the call made by the
:19:34. > :19:37.councils, but it is important to have the voice of the trade unions
:19:38. > :19:41.in the debate and discuss with them players where they can use these of
:19:42. > :19:45.zero-hours contracts, because there is an exploitative end of these
:19:46. > :19:48.contracts, which I recognise, but there can be other forms of the
:19:49. > :19:53.contracts where there are flexibilities and benefits for the
:19:54. > :19:58.worker. For example, the NHS is a good example. To deal properly with
:19:59. > :20:01.how you do something about these exploitative contracts, there should
:20:02. > :20:05.be a discussion involving trade unions, employers and the
:20:06. > :20:10.Government. Ed Miliband says there in -- says there is an epidemic of
:20:11. > :20:13.these contracts across the UK. Is Wales actually suffering more
:20:14. > :20:17.heavily in terms of these contracts in other parts of the UK? I could
:20:18. > :20:21.not say whether there is a bigger problem here in Wales, because this
:20:22. > :20:26.is not just restricted to the public sector, but we note from figures
:20:27. > :20:31.that we have seen that there has been a rise in these types of
:20:32. > :20:37.contracts as there has been wider -- wider unemployment. This should not
:20:38. > :20:41.surprise anyone. There is a large pool of Labour that is worried about
:20:42. > :20:46.their work. The circumstances are less favourable and employers will
:20:47. > :20:51.often exploit that. When you think of in work poverty, which is a
:20:52. > :20:56.particular concern of ours, you can see that the growth of the number of
:20:57. > :20:59.people being employed, but the problem can also be people who are
:21:00. > :21:03.working in part term hours and zero-hours of work as well. There is
:21:04. > :21:07.a really big issue here in Wales and across the rest of the UK. But
:21:08. > :21:11.basically, if people are expecting action, as in meaningful action, any
:21:12. > :21:18.time soon, what are you saying to them? Do not hold your breath? I do
:21:19. > :21:23.not think that is fair. I think the Council should take seriously the
:21:24. > :21:26.concerns of the trade unions. It is unfair to prejudge what that body
:21:27. > :21:32.will do. It would be wrong for me to say that I can't guarantee a change
:21:33. > :21:36.in a certain period amid -- I can guarantee a change in a certain
:21:37. > :21:41.period of time. We are very clear that we do not support the use of
:21:42. > :21:55.exploitative contracts. Thank you very much. The Millennium Stadium.
:21:56. > :21:59.Caernarfon Castle. St David's Cathedral. The Senedd building. Each
:22:00. > :22:05.one has a claim to be the most iconic building in Wales. We all
:22:06. > :22:08.have our favourites. But for one of our leading experts on architecture,
:22:09. > :22:10.Wales isn't serious about increasing the number of exemplary buildings.
:22:11. > :22:12.Patrick Hannay, editor of Touchstone, Wales' only architecture
:22:13. > :22:15.magazine, says the current commissioning system does not set a
:22:16. > :22:18.consistent national standard. And as he explains, it's the Welsh
:22:19. > :22:23.Government's job to demand and set higher standards.
:22:24. > :22:27.Welcome to Newport. This city once had a proud industrial heritage.
:22:28. > :22:33.This is a gateway city. People come in from England. What do they see?
:22:34. > :22:40.And exciting mix of Arctic texture -- architecture, or do you see too
:22:41. > :22:44.many missed opportunities for excellence? But there is promise
:22:45. > :22:55.here. This is the city campus in Newport: . -- in Newport. It was
:22:56. > :22:58.designed by a famous architect. The interior is especially vibrant and
:22:59. > :23:02.colourful, and after all, it is inside where the staff and students
:23:03. > :23:08.live most of their life. Why can't this be the minimum standard? The
:23:09. > :23:15.picture continues across Wales. Too many blunders, too few delights,
:23:16. > :23:19.insufficient aspiration and little public promotion of talented
:23:20. > :23:25.architects aced in Wales. Take the wise building at the centre for
:23:26. > :23:33.alternative technology. It is award-winning, world-class, yet it's
:23:34. > :23:40.architects have not picked up a single substantial commission since
:23:41. > :23:44.its completion. Who is making architectural quality? With the rise
:23:45. > :23:48.of contractor power over the last decade, architects have been reduced
:23:49. > :23:54.to just simply being subcontractors to the process. Talent slips through
:23:55. > :23:58.the net. This is all because those at the heart of power have
:23:59. > :24:03.insufficient judgment about architectural design, and therefore
:24:04. > :24:06.will take no risks. Good architecture receives very little
:24:07. > :24:13.coverage in the public media. Our newspapers and television. Has
:24:14. > :24:18.anybody heard of the most important architectural award in Wales? The
:24:19. > :24:22.architects to create these great buildings are really named in
:24:23. > :24:29.national newspapers. This needs to change. -- are rarely aimed. This is
:24:30. > :24:34.not an original concept. In Scotland, there architectural
:24:35. > :24:41.policies are and their third reform. Should the body responsible, the
:24:42. > :24:44.Design Commission for Wales, actually act more aggressively in
:24:45. > :24:49.promoting in the public good architecture and being critical of
:24:50. > :24:55.the bad? Whether it be in our high streets or in our housing areas, or
:24:56. > :24:57.in major public buildings, I am calling for action at the centre of
:24:58. > :25:02.Government for putting sufficient architectural judgment and
:25:03. > :25:07.high-quality architectural patronage at the centre of their thinking and
:25:08. > :25:11.promote architectural debate with the public. It could be the start of
:25:12. > :25:18.an exciting future landscape for Wales.
:25:19. > :25:23.Patrick Hannay there. Joining me now is Carol-Ann Davies from the Design
:25:24. > :25:27.Commission for Wales. Good to have you with us. Thank you very much. Do
:25:28. > :25:31.you accept his main point, that we are not in a position where we can
:25:32. > :25:39.have proper safeguards for architectural standards? I think
:25:40. > :25:43.part of it is insightful. I do not think it is the whole story. We are
:25:44. > :25:48.in a far better place than we were ten years ago, or even when we were
:25:49. > :25:53.seeing what we call turning point buildings coming out of the ground.
:25:54. > :25:58.The Millennium Stadium and other buildings around the rest of Wales.
:25:59. > :26:03.We have got to remember that it is not just about buildings. It is
:26:04. > :26:09.about homes and streets and schools and health care buildings and all
:26:10. > :26:15.sorts of public spaces. Are we in better shape? Yes. Is there more to
:26:16. > :26:18.be done? Yes. We are working on it. Do you have the Design Commission
:26:19. > :26:24.have the powers necessary to enforce the kind of standards that you would
:26:25. > :26:29.like? Lots of comparisons are drawn. He pulsate to look at Scotland.
:26:30. > :26:32.Would you like to be the Scottish -- people say to look to Scotland.
:26:33. > :26:36.Would you like to be in the Scott's position, where you can say, sorry,
:26:37. > :26:45.that is not good enough, we have got better standard than that? I think
:26:46. > :26:49.we have got a number of tools. Wales has very good design policy, written
:26:50. > :26:55.into its planning policy, and divine policy was put at the heart of our
:26:56. > :26:58.decision-making process. -- design policy. What has happened in
:26:59. > :27:03.Scotland is great, however standards, and force, power, is that
:27:04. > :27:07.really how you bring back the process of design? Maybe it is. If
:27:08. > :27:12.you look around Wales and the awful buildings that. -- performed badly
:27:13. > :27:17.as well, that is what some local authorities are putting up. Maybe
:27:18. > :27:22.you do need the powers to say, sorry, that is not good enough. We
:27:23. > :27:27.are happy to say, sorry, that is not good enough. We rent a national
:27:28. > :27:34.design -- three run a national design service throughout Wales. 37
:27:35. > :27:39.then tested professionals unpaid throughout the whole of Wales
:27:40. > :27:45.championing good design. The things we should not forget as well, I
:27:46. > :27:47.think, is that we have fantastic designers in Wales that the export
:27:48. > :27:52.across the whole of the world. Is that talent being exported more than
:27:53. > :27:56.it should be and we are not benefiting from the kind of skills
:27:57. > :27:59.that are being developed here in Wales? That is a key issue, and it
:28:00. > :28:03.is also about teams and risk aversion. We might want to look
:28:04. > :28:09.about how we want to skewer stop that is not -- procurer. That does
:28:10. > :28:15.not mean you should throw caution to the wind. You have to have value for
:28:16. > :28:20.money. But, for the long-term, we could be looking at how we manage
:28:21. > :28:27.risk and how we assess attracting talent and procure it for projects
:28:28. > :28:33.all across Wales, and let's not forget, attracting some of the best
:28:34. > :28:39.in the business. Are we rather reluctant in Wales to take risks
:28:40. > :28:43.with buildings? Are we in Wales sometimes too reluctant to take
:28:44. > :28:48.risks? I do not think we are more reluctant than anywhere else. There
:28:49. > :28:53.is a tendency to see that the grass is greener elsewhere. It is
:28:54. > :28:59.interesting to see one Institute, it is a fantastic building and has been
:29:00. > :29:03.highlighted at the building of the decade in Wales. With big projects,
:29:04. > :29:06.you always want them to be high-quality, on-time and on
:29:07. > :29:13.budget, without question, but there has to be a case for magic. If you
:29:14. > :29:19.look at the Royal Welsh holly jug music and drama, they are absolute
:29:20. > :29:26.gifts. -- College of music and drama. We have designed panelists
:29:27. > :29:30.who are out there working for nothing and championing good design.
:29:31. > :29:39.We look forward to seeing how things move forward in the future. Thank
:29:40. > :29:42.you. That's it for this week's programme. We'll be back next
:29:43. > :29:49.Wednesday. In the meantime you can get in touch with us about the
:29:50. > :29:56.issues discussed tonight. Thanks for watching. Good night. Nos da.