:00:14. > :00:19.measles epidemic in Swansea. Should the MMR be obligatory for all
:00:19. > :00:23.children? Welfare of people - a special report by the Paralympic
:00:23. > :00:28.champion and member of the House of Lords, tanning great champion --
:00:28. > :00:38.tanning great Thomson. And wait take on closer look at Mrs Thatcher's
:00:38. > :00:41.
:00:41. > :00:46.involvement in Wales. -- we take a closer look. Great to be back, The
:00:46. > :00:54.Wales Report will examine the issues and to hold the decision-makers to
:00:54. > :00:59.account. One of those decision-makers -- what are they
:00:59. > :01:02.doing about the measles epidemic? There are growing fears that the
:01:02. > :01:07.epidemic will spread and one expert says it is certain to spread to
:01:07. > :01:11.Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan. Public Health Wales believes that
:01:11. > :01:21.40,000 miles children remain unvaccinated. Emergency clinics have
:01:21. > :01:25.in full this weekend, all of which prompts rather big question - if
:01:25. > :01:35.parents are not responsible, shouldn't the authorities take steps
:01:35. > :01:35.
:01:36. > :01:41.to make the MMR mandatory? It has been an anxious time for parents in
:01:41. > :01:48.Swansea. And the queues at the emergency clinics get longer as the
:01:48. > :01:53.outbreak grows. More than 6000 people, many teenagers, still have
:01:53. > :02:00.not been vaccinated against measles here. Measles can involve much more
:02:00. > :02:08.than a fever and a rash. Obligations can lead to deafness, brain damage
:02:08. > :02:13.and it can kill. This is the second egg measles outbreak in West Wales.
:02:13. > :02:22.Four years ago there was another without break and fewer than ten
:02:22. > :02:30.miles away from here. This nursery was at the centre. 265 people had
:02:30. > :02:35.the disease and VM's. Was one of four children attending the nursery
:02:35. > :02:41.who ended up in hospital. I woke up one morning and she was still in
:02:41. > :02:46.bed, not responding. I called the doctor and the doctors said it was
:02:46. > :02:53.measles and she sent us to the hospital, and we were admitted. It
:02:53. > :02:58.was a horrible time. She was lifeless, it was one of the scariest
:02:58. > :03:02.things I have been through as a mother. The outbreak in Swansea is
:03:02. > :03:11.three times eager. And she is terrified that other daughter will
:03:12. > :03:15.get it. Although Olivia is too young to have the vaccine, her mother is
:03:15. > :03:20.among a number of parents asking for the jab early to give their babies
:03:21. > :03:25.protection. There is a panic. Thinking she will go through what
:03:25. > :03:30.Abigail has been through. We have spoken to the doctor and they are
:03:30. > :03:40.willing to have her go down to have it earlier. They are happy for her
:03:40. > :03:43.
:03:43. > :03:53.to have that. So, why is this big outbreak happening? Why here and
:03:53. > :03:56.now? In the 1990s, there was widespread panic. There was the
:03:56. > :04:02.publication of the now discredited research strongly linked the MMR
:04:02. > :04:09.with autism. The number of babies receiving the MMR -- MMR dropped
:04:09. > :04:12.across the UK but in Swansea, it plummeted. The finger of blame has
:04:12. > :04:17.been pointed at the South Wales Evening Post, which at the time that
:04:17. > :04:24.the campaign which featured worried local parents. The editor at the
:04:25. > :04:31.time stands by his story. As I saw it, the concerns were totally
:04:31. > :04:37.genuine. What were we supposed to do? Tell them to go away? Newspapers
:04:37. > :04:42.listen to readers and report and they go to the relevant people and
:04:42. > :04:48.say, what have you got to say? that the outbreak we have no is
:04:48. > :04:54.happening, any regrets? No, it is impossible to have regrets because I
:04:54. > :04:59.am certain that if we wind the clock back and started again, I cannot
:04:59. > :05:05.imagine any bees and why we would not do it the same way. At no time
:05:05. > :05:11.did the newspaper ever say to parents, do not let your children
:05:11. > :05:17.have this? We never said that. I could argue that I regret the health
:05:17. > :05:21.authority did not make that point more effectively. Since then,
:05:21. > :05:27.professionals have been proactive in trying to rebuild trust in the MMR
:05:27. > :05:31.vaccine. Now, many in the medical community want to go further. They
:05:31. > :05:35.are calling for tougher rules to make sure children are immunised.
:05:35. > :05:38.The first thing we should do is to ask for some evidence that the child
:05:38. > :05:45.has been immunised before they are allowed into school and that happens
:05:45. > :05:50.in America. Would that work?I do not know but we must try because we
:05:50. > :05:53.presently have a nasty outbreak of measles and we are hoping there
:05:54. > :06:00.won't be too many children affected severely and hoping we shall not get
:06:00. > :06:06.what is likely to be the inevitable death. What will it take to convince
:06:06. > :06:09.parents together children immunised? Will the week -- will be the
:06:09. > :06:17.required to have vaccines before being let into nurseries in order to
:06:17. > :06:23.stop another outbreak? Helen Callaghan. Joining the night, the
:06:23. > :06:31.Director of Health detection for Public Health Wales. So many
:06:31. > :06:35.concerned parents. What can you tell me? This outbreak has not gone away,
:06:35. > :06:39.we are still seeing 100 new cases every week and I am concerned the
:06:39. > :06:44.schools are opening next week and there will be huge opportunities for
:06:44. > :06:48.this to spread, more than over the Easter holidays. The vaccine is the
:06:48. > :06:53.only thing that. This, there are far too many children who have never
:06:53. > :07:00.been protected. We have seen parents demanding it. What is the level of
:07:01. > :07:04.demand? At the level that you think is showing a good response? There is
:07:04. > :07:11.no doubt that there must have been about 3000 parents across South
:07:11. > :07:14.Wales yesterday. That is tremendous. However, the children we really need
:07:14. > :07:18.to vaccinate or the older children and we have not seen them coming in
:07:18. > :07:24.the same numbers. What is your message to the parents of teenagers
:07:24. > :07:27.who are reluctant or think they have time on their hands? The important
:07:27. > :07:33.thing is that they signed the consent form, that is at the bottom
:07:33. > :07:37.of the schoolbag, so look out. Sign that and make sure their child
:07:37. > :07:44.leaves school with appropriate protection. I am convinced in my own
:07:45. > :07:52.mind that we have won the war. MMR is safe. You can see parents with
:07:52. > :07:57.little babies. I thought that everybody had agreed that it is?
:07:57. > :08:04.That argument was resolved some years ago? That is true, the Lancet
:08:04. > :08:08.in 2010, they said that. But for parents to be convinced. We have
:08:08. > :08:12.never had such media coverage or talked about the forgotten older
:08:12. > :08:20.children. We have not engaged parents of those children for a very
:08:20. > :08:25.long time in such an effective way. What kind of challenge are you
:08:25. > :08:30.looking at? How many people do you need to get vaccinated in the months
:08:30. > :08:36.to come? I would not like to say months, there is an urgency as soon
:08:36. > :08:42.as is. Within one month?Yes, huge efforts to capture the children in
:08:42. > :08:47.schools. How many?If you look at children who should have had at
:08:47. > :08:54.least one vaccination, there are 40,000. Children aged between five
:08:54. > :09:00.and 18, we should have had two doses, another 30,000. So about
:09:00. > :09:04.70,000 children. Within one month? This is across Wales and this is a
:09:04. > :09:09.priority, it is a public health emergency, and if we don't do this
:09:10. > :09:15.now, you might never get the opportunity again. While we have the
:09:15. > :09:22.media support. While this is on everybody's mind. Nobody wants to
:09:22. > :09:27.see any death. We might have to rip -- favoured sources but it should
:09:27. > :09:34.happen. Everybody will understand the force behind that statement. Is
:09:34. > :09:40.death possible to? It is, there were six in France in 2011 and five of
:09:40. > :09:43.those working ages. If we don't vaccinate, it will happen.
:09:43. > :09:50.parents watching, still wondering if you are on top of this, what do you
:09:50. > :09:54.say? I think we have done a huge amount, there is a real effort to
:09:54. > :10:00.get this done in schools and they understand the seriousness, they
:10:00. > :10:03.understand that the vaccine is the only way to prevent the spread and I
:10:03. > :10:10.want them to work with us, the ball is in their court. In the weeks
:10:10. > :10:13.coming forward. Get the consent form. In some cases, is it not worth
:10:13. > :10:19.taking the ball out of their court and making this obligatory? I would
:10:19. > :10:23.not like that. I think parents choice is very important and parent
:10:23. > :10:30.choice based on good, accurate information is crucial. The choices
:10:30. > :10:34.that parents made 13 years ago were based on what they understood to be
:10:34. > :10:38.the risks. While the professionals might have said it was safe, they
:10:38. > :10:42.did not hear that, they saw a motive parents on television and heard
:10:43. > :10:47.tragic stories and they made the decision that was right for their
:10:47. > :10:53.children. They now recognise, and I have spoken to parents, that if they
:10:53. > :11:00.could go back, they would. But they did not know. It'll be a very month
:11:00. > :11:02.ahead. We wish you well. Thank you very much. This month sees the
:11:02. > :11:07.introduction of the biggest changes ever and limited in the welfare
:11:07. > :11:13.system. A study this week by Sheffield Hallam University says the
:11:14. > :11:14.changes will have a particularly adverse impact in Wales. Of the ten
:11:14. > :11:24.local authorities, most heavily affected across the UK, three of
:11:24. > :11:32.
:11:32. > :11:36.them are in Wales. Tony Grey Thomson that came into force two weeks ago
:11:36. > :11:41.have described as the biggest shift since its inception. The restructure
:11:41. > :11:45.was required to make the system more simple. But also because of the
:11:45. > :11:48.number of times that cost was mentioned, to save money. I don't
:11:48. > :11:56.think anybody would have created a system that ended up being this
:11:56. > :12:00.contributed or this expensive. There are very few people who do not agree
:12:00. > :12:04.that reform is needed. It is harder to agree what that looks like.
:12:04. > :12:11.Successive governments have tried to tackle this demand inefficiency but
:12:11. > :12:18.it is an uphill battle. Welfare is an emotive issue. The language of
:12:18. > :12:22.elephant scroungers has changed to strivers and skivers. They remind me
:12:22. > :12:24.of the undeserving and deserving poor of the 1940s and I don't now
:12:24. > :12:29.anybody who thinks those who cheat the system should be allowed to. But
:12:29. > :12:34.part of the problem does lie in public perception and in reality,
:12:34. > :12:37.those cheating are relatively few. Emotion exists in the language and
:12:37. > :12:43.nowhere is this more clearly seen than when discussing the bedroom
:12:43. > :12:50.tax. Regardless of whether you think this is a tax or a subsidy, the
:12:50. > :12:54.words have got people talking in recent months. Steve from carefully
:12:54. > :12:58.as one of those people whose lives will be seriously affected by the
:12:58. > :13:03.new tax rules. The former security guard who worked all his life but
:13:03. > :13:06.had to give up his job because of chronic kidney disease needs
:13:06. > :13:13.dialysis three times a week and his spare bedroom has been transformed
:13:13. > :13:20.into his treatment room. The one spare room that they say I have,
:13:20. > :13:26.they want to stop 14 % of my housing benefit, roughly �12 a week, that is
:13:26. > :13:31.money I simply have not got. Benefits, that is not a great deal
:13:31. > :13:38.of money, it is the bare minimum that they think you can survive on.
:13:38. > :13:43.�50 a month out of that is going to be a real hardship for me. It is not
:13:43. > :13:48.a lifestyle choice. It is not, this is not a life, this is just an
:13:48. > :13:52.existence. It is hard to argue against the philosophy that people
:13:52. > :13:57.should be living in appropriate sized housing for their needs. But
:13:57. > :14:00.what has been attempted here is a correction to policy. But holding
:14:00. > :14:07.the right size automotive housing where it is really needed. There is
:14:07. > :14:17.no quick fix. The reality of moving people is somewhat different to when
:14:17. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:20.you see it written down. Because of the move in people, it is not
:14:20. > :14:27.quantifiable and the true cost I'd only be realised in several years,
:14:27. > :14:31.when we can look back and analyse the data. Recent UK government
:14:31. > :14:35.statements have suggested that reining in the welfare spending will
:14:35. > :14:38.be an extremely challenging task. But I believe a huge amount could be
:14:38. > :14:43.achieved in terms of savings are looking at the administration of the
:14:43. > :14:47.system. By ensuring that benefit assessments carried out robbery in
:14:47. > :14:51.the first place and that the number of cases that go to appeal and
:14:51. > :15:01.overturned down. Sadly, that is part of the detail that we are never able
:15:01. > :15:13.
:15:13. > :15:23.to get our teeth into and why Case-study we saw the film, is that
:15:23. > :15:24.
:15:24. > :15:28.the sort of person who should they lose out? In no way can the use of
:15:28. > :15:38.that room, where we saw that they Ellis's machine, can that be
:15:38. > :15:42.described as a spare room. What are his options klezmer going through
:15:42. > :15:45.an appeals process? One of the things we have then is double the
:15:45. > :15:49.amount of money available for Wales local authorities through
:15:49. > :15:54.discretion the housing payments to help the hard cases. Without
:15:54. > :16:01.knowing all the full details, just from what I saw, he is exactly a
:16:01. > :16:05.difficult case their knees and additional support. He clearly
:16:05. > :16:09.feels that within the rules as they are on paper he will be caught up
:16:09. > :16:14.in it. That is telling people that you are not targeting the right
:16:14. > :16:21.people. There is a lot of fear around. Any change brings with it
:16:21. > :16:25.uncertainty. We're talking about vulnerable people and our job as a
:16:25. > :16:32.politicians is to get close to these people. We could be looking
:16:32. > :16:36.at a clip of eight-bedroom with an two bunk bed and a four children.
:16:36. > :16:40.The issue of housing overcrowding as well as the issue of single
:16:40. > :16:44.people or couples living in three- bedroom houses where they have
:16:44. > :16:49.generally spare rooms. There is a real issue of fairness here as well,
:16:49. > :16:54.how we manage the housing stock and a change we're bringing means
:16:54. > :17:02.people living in council houses will have to make the same chain --
:17:02. > :17:07.decisions as people living in privates homes. In your area, how
:17:08. > :17:11.many sports -- spare properties do you have? The great demand in our a
:17:11. > :17:16.for two and three-bedroom houses. I get people coming into my surgery
:17:16. > :17:20.wanting to move out to their one- bedroom properties. It is something
:17:20. > :17:23.we started to see even before the change kicked in. People were
:17:23. > :17:28.living into a three-bedroom properties, started to were cows
:17:28. > :17:32.they were not going to be able to afford the extra to stay where they
:17:32. > :17:37.are. They are arranging swaps were tenants a one-bedroom properties.
:17:37. > :17:42.People can do that on the website of the local authorities. If people
:17:42. > :17:46.are making decisions. One-bedroom properties are being released. I'm
:17:46. > :17:53.not trying to downplay the issue of the shortage. Not everybody
:17:53. > :17:59.currently under an occupying will be required to move. Some of them
:17:59. > :18:05.will say they value the spare room and will pay for it. Some of the
:18:05. > :18:09.research we did shows in some areas of Wales, there is no council stock
:18:09. > :18:13.of the smaller properties, one- bedroom homes where people could
:18:13. > :18:18.move to. In those cases people don't have a choice, they will have
:18:18. > :18:25.to take the brunt of the reform. depends on what they want to do. If
:18:25. > :18:29.they want to downsize there is an issue. I recognise that. One of the
:18:29. > :18:33.reasons we are through the discretionary housing payments, we
:18:33. > :18:38.want to help the transition so it might be somebody wants to move
:18:38. > :18:42.because they can't afford to stay on won't be able to afford it. They
:18:42. > :18:45.won the that belong go in there comes property to manage the change
:18:45. > :18:51.will stop the payments will help them do that if their local
:18:52. > :18:56.authority are using those funds. point of principle, do you think
:18:57. > :19:01.and the research by Sheffield Hallam is clear, do you think Wales
:19:01. > :19:05.is being asked to share a greater burden of this than other parts of
:19:05. > :19:09.the UK? No, I don't think Wales has been asked to shoulder a bigger
:19:09. > :19:13.burden. We have a greater proportion of people in Wales who
:19:13. > :19:17.were reliant on benefits, we have a greater proportion of people in
:19:17. > :19:22.Wales who are registered as disabled. Any change to the welfare
:19:22. > :19:26.system will impact Wales. Fourth actually, when you look at the
:19:26. > :19:33.fruit of what the reformers bring through, encouraging people back
:19:33. > :19:37.into work, supporting people to live fuller lives, you come to the
:19:37. > :19:41.conclusion Wales needs welfare reform just as much as anybody else.
:19:41. > :19:47.You have seen the list because the 10 local authorities across the UK
:19:47. > :19:50.most affected by a welfare report, top-ten, is start with Blackpool,
:19:50. > :19:55.then Merthyr Tydfil is number four and then you come to Blaenau Gwent
:19:55. > :20:00.and Neath. If that is three in the top 10. What does that tell you?
:20:00. > :20:05.Way you have concentrated pockets of high unemployment you also get a
:20:05. > :20:09.concentration of people relying on benefits particularly disability
:20:09. > :20:15.benefits. And he's the type of people should be shouldering these
:20:15. > :20:20.changes? -- are these. If you are saying we should be running to the
:20:20. > :20:25.barricades to defend the existing system, a system that has kept two
:20:25. > :20:29.and 1,000 people in West from ever working at the end their life, that
:20:29. > :20:34.locks whole communities in worklessness, then no. What we're
:20:34. > :20:38.trying to do through our welfare reform, Tanni Grey-Thompson
:20:38. > :20:43.mentioned simplifying the system, it is about fairness and also about
:20:43. > :20:48.restoring the value of work, the incentives to work into the system.
:20:48. > :20:52.If the welfare system far too often encourages people to stay on
:20:52. > :20:56.benefits and does not create pathways out of poverty. We know
:20:56. > :21:01.work is the only sure way out of poverty. Hopefully in a few moans
:21:01. > :21:06.we will have you back and we will talk about the changes. -- in a few
:21:06. > :21:10.months. The headlines have been dominated by the death of by Miss
:21:10. > :21:15.Thatcher. Lot of the news and comment focused on that we deeply
:21:15. > :21:18.divided opinions of what the latter years achieved. Those divisions
:21:18. > :21:23.addit cues which isn't surprising when you consider the traumatic
:21:23. > :21:28.offered -- episode of the miners' strike. Her visits to Wales often
:21:28. > :21:33.sparked a lot of controversy. new industries aren't the heavy,
:21:33. > :21:39.clanking, dirty condition industries. They are good, clean
:21:39. > :21:48.industries. Doesn't that please do? Doesn't that please do? Owed cheer
:21:48. > :21:52.up. That was Margaret Thatcher. She was speaking on a memorable visit
:21:52. > :22:02.to South Wales. Joining me now is the former Labour MP, Dr Kim
:22:02. > :22:03.
:22:03. > :22:06.Howells. Also joining us is Cheryl Gillan. Can I ask you, how much of
:22:06. > :22:10.an inspiration was Margaret Thatcher to you? She was the reason
:22:10. > :22:14.I got into politics. I was active in politics but never thought I
:22:14. > :22:19.would be an MP. A lot of women think like that and I didn't think
:22:19. > :22:23.it was for a woman. I remember in 1979 when she was leader of the
:22:23. > :22:28.opposition I sat almost next to her at the dinner for other candidates
:22:28. > :22:32.and she told me that I should be thinking about being an MP. I
:22:32. > :22:37.walked away from that in and sat with a whole load of male
:22:37. > :22:47.colleagues and set, "I think she was right". For she inspired a lot
:22:47. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:53.of people in Wales. She started the buying the council houses scheme.
:22:53. > :22:58.She had the influence which was powerful enough to get 14
:22:58. > :23:03.Conservative MPs elected in Wales. People forget that. They tend to
:23:03. > :23:10.paint a picture of the 1980s as being a Tory-free zone in Wales. It
:23:10. > :23:15.wasn't. He even when I was elected in 1989, there were 14 Conservative
:23:15. > :23:22.MPs in Wales. Rise from the north all the way to the south. She had
:23:22. > :23:30.an effect. She had another effect which has really resonated over the
:23:30. > :23:34.past week since Lady Thatcher died. She had her virtues, she also had
:23:34. > :23:41.some civvy his defects, I think. The way she treated the call feels
:23:41. > :23:45.was one of them. Defects, do you agree? She did say in that famous
:23:45. > :23:48.speech when there was a vote of no confidence in the Labour government
:23:48. > :23:53.when she was leader of the opposition, no government can
:23:53. > :23:58.protect yesterday's jobs for ever. They can all put off the inevitable.
:23:58. > :24:03.That is how she saw a lot of our industrialisation, many of these
:24:03. > :24:08.jobs were the jobs for the past and could not been protected. We had to
:24:08. > :24:12.look for the jobs for the future. She was also passionate about
:24:12. > :24:17.reducing the involvement of the state which was enormous in those
:24:17. > :24:21.days and giving people individual freedom. We have mentioned the
:24:21. > :24:27.council house sales but reducing the level of personal taxation
:24:27. > :24:32.because she thought Welsh -- wealth creation was important. If we talk
:24:32. > :24:36.about the strength of the Conservatives in the 1980s, has
:24:36. > :24:39.started in 1979 when the upswing for the Tories happened. To what
:24:39. > :24:49.extent was that all about Mrs Thatcher and her brand of
:24:49. > :24:55.leadership? To what extent was it about the 1970s? She knew what the
:24:55. > :24:59.feeling of the time was. I remember right in the middle of the strike
:25:00. > :25:05.we wanted a quiet look and some ports in Essex which we heard were
:25:05. > :25:10.importing coal. In London, we were keeping as if we had landed from
:25:10. > :25:15.Mars at the wealth and the excess as seemed to be on the streets of
:25:15. > :25:19.the city of London in the middle of the miners' strike in 1984. There
:25:19. > :25:25.were severe deprivation here. It was a tale of two nations by any
:25:25. > :25:33.definition. I think Mrs Thatcher understood that. Many politicians
:25:33. > :25:39.did not. We didn't. Cheryl Gillan is quite right, industries lose
:25:39. > :25:44.their primacy and their purpose but, remember, they are not just jobs,
:25:44. > :25:50.the are not an abstract quality, they are people. The way people are
:25:50. > :25:54.treated has an impact upon their psychology in subsequent years.
:25:54. > :25:58.That is why there is such bitterness. If it had been managed
:25:58. > :26:03.better, the decline of that industry, the wheeze was phased out
:26:03. > :26:08.and new jobs coming in and people would be thinking differently about
:26:08. > :26:13.it. But believe me they don't. There are still a lot of people who
:26:13. > :26:19.feel very, very badly about Lady Thatcher event within News she has
:26:19. > :26:23.died. I just think we forget Wales was having not just a tough time
:26:23. > :26:27.but was having a really tough time under Labour governments in terms
:26:27. > :26:32.of the income policies, in terms of what was happening with the mines.
:26:32. > :26:36.If so many mines were closed under Wilson and Callaghan. Even people
:26:36. > :26:41.wanting to protect and develop the Welsh language were not exactly
:26:41. > :26:47.getting good feedback from the Labour government at the time. It
:26:47. > :26:52.took a Conservative government to bring in S4C. That wonderful
:26:52. > :26:55.turnaround in the election and the 14 MPs was the reaction to Labour's
:26:55. > :26:59.treatment of Wales and Wales on the Welsh people wanted to give
:26:59. > :27:04.somebody else a chance. If a final force for you both, one commentator
:27:05. > :27:11.said we have to accept, and the conservatism have to accept, there
:27:11. > :27:17.will always be divided opinion about Margaret Thatcher. -- the
:27:17. > :27:22.Conservatives will have to accept. What would you say? That is right.
:27:22. > :27:26.She was at a strong character and so decisive and so deferens in her
:27:26. > :27:30.views and in her leadership, there will always be discussions about
:27:30. > :27:35.her. We have got to remember there were good things as well as bad
:27:35. > :27:42.things from the perspective of Wales. He then the health and
:27:42. > :27:47.social benefit went up three times. -- health and social budget.
:27:47. > :27:52.Unemployment doubled. It was a time of transition but his was be
:27:52. > :27:56.remembered as the time of creative, imaginative time. It will be seen
:27:57. > :28:02.as an attack, communities that we valued so much in Wales and
:28:02. > :28:05.continue to value. We have survived it. I hope people remember that
:28:05. > :28:14.community is important. I'm not sure Margaret Thatcher believed
:28:14. > :28:20.that. I think she did. You must remember, as long as you're not
:28:20. > :28:26.selected in your memories. I am not going to be selective, in saying