:00:07. > :00:10.Tonight, it is the biggest shake-up of health care in Wales, but is a
:00:11. > :00:16.prescription on change on this scale really the best cure for the
:00:16. > :00:19.Welsh NHS? In or out? David Cameron wants to re-examine the UK
:00:19. > :00:23.relationship with Europe, but what does it mean for Wales? As another
:00:23. > :00:28.high street giant announces its doors are closing, we examine the
:00:28. > :00:38.mid- the impact of the internet on one of our biggest export, music. A
:00:38. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:44.Good evening and welcome to the programme that looks at the big
:00:44. > :00:48.decisions that affect your lives here in Wales and the decision-
:00:48. > :00:53.makers behind them. We start tonight with an issue that always
:00:53. > :00:56.ranks as the most important to you in any opinion poll. Your NHS. And
:00:56. > :01:01.that is undergoing what has been billed as one of the biggest
:01:01. > :01:04.changes in its history. The NHS here is about change so good --
:01:05. > :01:08.about face significant change because according to experts and
:01:08. > :01:11.the Welsh government it will improve health care and addressed
:01:11. > :01:14.the financial pressures weighing down system. There is a
:01:14. > :01:20.consultation under way and this week we have heard the plans of two
:01:20. > :01:23.of Wales' seven health boards. In Mid West and North Wales. Decisions
:01:23. > :01:27.about rationalising services, or closing local hospitals, provoked
:01:27. > :01:31.strong emotions from people who feel their local services are under
:01:31. > :01:35.threat. David Williams has spent the week in North Wales with some
:01:35. > :01:45.of those waiting to hear their fate and he has been looking at the
:01:45. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :01:51.complex implications for all of us Months of lobbying, arguing that
:01:51. > :01:57.protesting culminated this week in one final gesture from a small
:01:57. > :02:02.group of parents driven by the most emotive of campaigns. Saving a
:02:02. > :02:09.hospital service which had saved the lives of their children. They
:02:09. > :02:16.call themselves Cuddles. But they are not here to embrace the health
:02:16. > :02:22.authority. On the contrary, they come here to make one last gesture,
:02:22. > :02:29.one last plea to the local health board, to think again about six
:02:29. > :02:33.proposal to move the neonatal intensive care service to the
:02:33. > :02:37.hospital near Birkenhead, in England. He was having difficulty
:02:37. > :02:41.breathing so they had to resuscitate him. I don't think he
:02:41. > :02:45.would have made it elsewhere. you both feel very strongly that
:02:45. > :02:49.this unit should stay in this hospital? We do. Until you have
:02:49. > :02:55.been in a predicament where your child is on the line, you don't
:02:55. > :03:01.understand what the staff do here. It is unreal. Parents here are
:03:01. > :03:05.understandably precious about a service which they hold dear. The
:03:05. > :03:10.health service in all its forms generates the most passionate of
:03:10. > :03:15.arguments. Every corner of the services considered worth fighting
:03:15. > :03:20.for. Not least the Community Hospitals, which are at the heart
:03:20. > :03:27.of the NHS. Community Hospitals like the one at Colwyn Bay, whose
:03:27. > :03:32.minor injuries unit is threatened with closure. One of the leading
:03:32. > :03:35.campaigners orchestrating the public fight to save it is
:03:35. > :03:41.Conservative councillor Cheryl Carlisle. She has attended every
:03:41. > :03:47.consultation meeting called she has come away less than impressed by
:03:47. > :03:53.the financial arguments put forward by health officials in pursuit of
:03:53. > :03:56.their plans. I understand exactly what they are saying, but I do feel
:03:57. > :04:02.that the financial problems come from a lot higher up. They come
:04:02. > :04:05.from the reorganisation of merging six local health boards. I sat want
:04:06. > :04:09.Conwy local health board and we had every bit of budget tied down. We
:04:09. > :04:12.knew where every penny was going. Do you think that you have done
:04:12. > :04:17.enough to win the argument had saved this money unit, minor
:04:17. > :04:21.injuries unit? If it is a true consultation and truly done on
:04:21. > :04:29.costings, then yes, I think we have done enough, if they truly listen
:04:29. > :04:36.to the people. This week, months of consultation came to an end and a
:04:36. > :04:43.health board finally delivered its verdict. It was billed as D-Day,
:04:43. > :04:48.decision day. This was technically a board meeting, not a public
:04:48. > :04:52.meeting, but by any standards it was an extraordinary affair. More
:04:52. > :04:56.than 100 people packed into a highly charged atmosphere and it
:04:56. > :05:01.was not long before individuals were expressing their disquiet.
:05:01. > :05:05.Although we were not allowed to film it. There were pleas for the
:05:05. > :05:10.protesters to stay silent or leave the meeting. One group's patience
:05:10. > :05:15.snapped when they were formally told that Flint hospital was to
:05:15. > :05:18.close. Angry and frustrated, they spilled out into the corridors
:05:19. > :05:24.still protesting and questioning the validity of the Board's
:05:24. > :05:28.consultation exercise. What have you heard this morning?
:05:28. > :05:33.They are closing Flint. They are giving us one bed at the hospital.
:05:33. > :05:38.Do you think you have lost your fight? No, no. We have lost a
:05:38. > :05:41.battle, we haven't lost the war. The Cuddles protest group there
:05:41. > :05:45.were hopeful that they had made a case but they were told that
:05:45. > :05:53.neonatal intensive care would be transferred to England. Angry and
:05:53. > :05:56.emotional, they met with local politicians out to the corridor.
:05:56. > :06:01.deliver a lesser service to the people... Their corridors
:06:01. > :06:06.themselves were now resembling a casualty unit for campaigners
:06:06. > :06:12.trying to reconcile the failed attempts at influencing the
:06:12. > :06:18.decisions. How do you feel? Disgusted. They discounted, they
:06:18. > :06:26.even had the wrong figures in the consultation. The discounted 1796
:06:26. > :06:29.individual letters and still made the decision. It is a farce. After
:06:29. > :06:34.one of the most dramatic meetings in which the future of the North
:06:34. > :06:38.Wales health service was mapped out, the chief executive of the board
:06:38. > :06:41.attempted to justify their decisions. I understand their
:06:41. > :06:45.points. I think we can demonstrate we have listened because we have
:06:45. > :06:48.made some changes to the decisions we went out with. But the major
:06:48. > :06:53.decisions you have made, you have made despite some very strong
:06:53. > :06:57.protests, for example the decision on neonatal intensive care. You are
:06:57. > :07:00.going ahead anyway. We have considered it. I have to say it has
:07:00. > :07:04.been a very difficult decision for all of us around the border and we
:07:04. > :07:09.have had to weigh up the balance of what is very emotional and quite
:07:09. > :07:12.rightly genuine concern amongst patients, families, children, and
:07:12. > :07:16.also our staff, if I might add, against the weight of evidence that
:07:17. > :07:20.is given to us by the Betis Association of perinatal Medicine,
:07:20. > :07:24.the national clinical Forum and the Royal Colleges. We have had some
:07:24. > :07:27.way that heavily in the ballots. Can I ask you a fundamental
:07:27. > :07:31.question. At the end of all this how well patient care be improved?
:07:31. > :07:35.I believe patient care will be improved in terms of better access,
:07:35. > :07:38.reliability, safety of services and outcomes and we are very clear we
:07:39. > :07:42.need to measure the outcomes, in other words quality of life and
:07:42. > :07:47.what sort of return people have had in terms of their treatment. Soak
:07:47. > :07:53.in a word, people, patients, will benefit as a consequence of the
:07:53. > :08:00.decisions you have made today? The Welsh government's five-year
:08:00. > :08:03.plan or vision for the NHS in Wales is called together for help. The
:08:03. > :08:08.problem is, as we have said on this programme before, the people of
:08:08. > :08:10.Wales are not together or agreed about the way to bring about change.
:08:10. > :08:15.Certainly there seems to be a compelling argument for it but that
:08:15. > :08:20.message does not seem to have been conveyed very well. Despite the
:08:20. > :08:23.what government's pronouncements promises -- pronouncements,
:08:23. > :08:27.promises even, to show leadership, they have been largely conspicuous
:08:27. > :08:31.by their absence. Surprisingly there is no overarching plan for
:08:31. > :08:36.change. The local health boards have been left to drop their own
:08:36. > :08:41.plans, put them out consultation and as we have seen in the last
:08:41. > :08:46.week, lay them before suspicious and critical public. Many would go
:08:46. > :08:52.along with the need to upgrade and modernise Wales' creaking health
:08:52. > :08:55.service. There is a clear need for improved clinical delivery. However,
:08:55. > :09:00.there are serious doubts about the way that the Welsh government has
:09:00. > :09:05.gone about the task. In particular, there is concern that the whole
:09:05. > :09:09.exercise is not -- has not been properly costed. Local authorities
:09:09. > :09:14.all over Wales are now becoming increasingly concerned about what
:09:14. > :09:21.they say is cost shifting. That is the increased financial burden of
:09:21. > :09:27.moving health care into the communities. Winners County Council,
:09:27. > :09:31.based in in Caernarfon, last year called for a halt to the proposals,
:09:31. > :09:34.including closure of community hospitals. They said the increased
:09:34. > :09:38.cost would place an intolerable burden on an already overstretched
:09:38. > :09:44.budget. Other authorities in Wales are saying much the same thing.
:09:44. > :09:49.They simply cannot afford the extra bill. They see it as moving rather
:09:49. > :09:52.than solving the problem and they are becoming more vocal about it.
:09:52. > :09:55.The point that is coming across from some parts of local government
:09:55. > :09:58.is to lead to make sure that any proposals that come forward are
:09:58. > :10:01.properly costed, so that we know the cost envelope we are all
:10:01. > :10:05.working in. The key thing for both sectors is to make sure that we
:10:05. > :10:10.have enough money to deal with the service pressures but we have got
:10:10. > :10:13.and to make sure that over a period of time the services we both
:10:13. > :10:17.deliver a sustainable. The problem we have got is that we know that
:10:17. > :10:20.there is worse to come in terms of public expenditure cuts. We know
:10:20. > :10:24.that things are going to get tougher and there is only a limited
:10:24. > :10:27.amount of money to go around so I think working together and making
:10:27. > :10:30.sure that we are not shunting costs but actually pooling our budgets
:10:30. > :10:34.will be a key feature for the public services and the next period.
:10:35. > :10:38.It is not over yet. Health boards in South Wales still have to
:10:38. > :10:43.deliver their verdict The Witches expected later this year. In the
:10:43. > :10:47.meantime, if any of the community health councils decide to exercise
:10:47. > :10:52.their right, as they might well do, to block any of these proposals, it
:10:52. > :10:55.will act as an effective veto. The decision will then have to be
:10:56. > :11:00.referred to the health minister, Lesley Griffiths, for her to make a
:11:00. > :11:05.decision. Only then will we know if the Welsh government's promise of
:11:05. > :11:09.showing strong leadership in what has been a long and disjointed and
:11:09. > :11:13.contentious exercise, will have any meaning and whether the government
:11:13. > :11:20.will actually be able to deliver their grand plan for health in
:11:20. > :11:21.Wales. David Williams reporting. We asked
:11:21. > :11:26.the Health Minister Lesley Griffiths to appear round tonight's
:11:26. > :11:30.programme, but she declined because she says she has acquired at -- a
:11:30. > :11:34.Krays side judicial role in the final decision-making process. But
:11:34. > :11:37.joining me as Helen Birtwistle, the director of the Welsh NHS
:11:37. > :11:43.Confederation which represents senior managers who run the health
:11:43. > :11:46.service. -- on a day-to-day basis. Thank you for coming in. You spend
:11:46. > :11:52.a long time working in public relations before you did this job.
:11:52. > :11:57.How do you find positive spin on what we have just heard? I don't do
:11:57. > :12:02.spin. I think the issue is that there are real discussions to be
:12:02. > :12:06.had with the public about how services need to change and the
:12:06. > :12:12.fact is that if we are looking for positives, it is that the members
:12:12. > :12:17.of the public, clinicians, are extremely engaged in decisions and
:12:17. > :12:20.discussions about the health service and they have really shown
:12:20. > :12:24.what an interest they have in the health service and how passionately
:12:24. > :12:28.they feel about the health service. That is something that in the NHS
:12:28. > :12:32.we need to maximise. We need to to take their views on board and we
:12:32. > :12:37.have. The trouble is people are building barricades, they are
:12:37. > :12:43.storming into meetings, they are angry. The NHS sits at the heart of
:12:43. > :12:46.the community in Wales and so many people now feel that it all seems
:12:46. > :12:51.to be creaking and groaning and even falling apart, that the
:12:51. > :12:57.mission is not clear, there is no overall strategy, costings have not
:12:57. > :12:59.been done. It is a mess, frankly, isn't it? The Health Service is
:13:00. > :13:03.under incredible strain and we have seen better over the Christmas and
:13:03. > :13:06.New Year period with some others of people who have been going into our
:13:06. > :13:11.hospitals. I think that demonstrates that something has to
:13:11. > :13:15.change and change dramatically. That means shifting the focus of
:13:15. > :13:20.services from hospitals into the community. Are you saying an effect
:13:20. > :13:25.that the burner -- the burden on the NHS in Wales is such now, the
:13:25. > :13:30.financial burden, is such that change is inevitable? You may not
:13:30. > :13:33.like it but it is going to have to come. One understands that that may
:13:33. > :13:38.be the case, but we have also got to have confidence in the people
:13:38. > :13:42.who are making the decisions aren't there seems to be drift there, but
:13:42. > :13:47.in effect those people who are making the decision about change
:13:47. > :13:50.have not really worked the costings out and haven't taken into account
:13:50. > :14:00.the emotion that comes out of these communities at the same time. They
:14:00. > :14:00.
:14:00. > :14:04.are not explaining the message very This is driven by safety and
:14:04. > :14:09.quality of care and changing the type of care and services we offer
:14:09. > :14:14.and shifting from hospitals to the community. The second point I would
:14:14. > :14:19.bring up is about the passion and emotion. That is quite right. As
:14:19. > :14:23.patients, we have a vested interest self-service but so do the people
:14:23. > :14:30.making the decisions. The members of our health boards have not been
:14:30. > :14:33.beamed down from outer space, they live in those communities. They
:14:33. > :14:39.have children and grandchildren. They also have a statutory
:14:39. > :14:43.responsibility to provide safe care. Part of the issue here might be
:14:43. > :14:48.that the health boards are being left to come up with their own plan.
:14:48. > :14:51.There is no umbrella. Is there enough guidance from the Welsh
:14:51. > :14:58.Government to the local health board about what needs to be done
:14:58. > :15:02.or are they just letting your members get on with it? Together
:15:02. > :15:05.for health is the vision of the Government and it means
:15:05. > :15:10.transferring and shifting services from hospitals into communities.
:15:10. > :15:15.That is the overall vision. Local health boards are charged with
:15:15. > :15:19.coming up with a response to that vision for their local communities.
:15:19. > :15:29.There will be some issues that local communities and local people
:15:29. > :15:31.
:15:31. > :15:37.don't like. In North Wales, we understand that. But health boards
:15:37. > :15:43.have to weigh up a range of issues. Public views but also views from
:15:43. > :15:47.staff, clinicians, the Royal Colleges, from experts and from a
:15:47. > :15:51.wealth of information and they have to balance the decisions they make
:15:51. > :15:57.based on the best and safe care. One thing you are going to face
:15:57. > :16:02.opposition on is the fact you are shifting the cost from the NHS to
:16:02. > :16:06.local councils by closing community hospitals and cutting back on local
:16:06. > :16:11.support, you are shifting care to them and they don't have the money
:16:11. > :16:16.to deal with it either. It is a shared problem. We recognise that.
:16:16. > :16:19.There is a lot of work to do with the social care sector and local
:16:19. > :16:24.authorities but there are also some fantastic examples where that is
:16:24. > :16:27.working really well in Wales. In the heat of all this discussion
:16:27. > :16:31.about what is closing and what is being perceived as being taken away,
:16:31. > :16:35.at our peril we forget the good work that is being done and the
:16:35. > :16:42.progress that being made and the way the health service is
:16:42. > :16:45.developing. Thank you very much. It's time to talk relationships and
:16:45. > :16:50.in particular our relationship with Europe. David Cameron has made
:16:50. > :16:53.clear that Britain should look again at what it gets out of the
:16:53. > :16:57.membership of the European Union. The prime minister postponed a
:16:57. > :17:01.speech last week on the UK's relationship with Europe to respond
:17:01. > :17:06.to the hostage crisis in Algeria than its thought hits -- is likely
:17:06. > :17:13.to warn that the UK could drift towards a divorce from the European
:17:13. > :17:23.Union if problems are not addressed. So is it all give on our part and
:17:23. > :17:37.
:17:37. > :17:41.little take or is it an arrangement So do we like David Cameron have
:17:41. > :17:46.any regrets about the terms of our relationship with the European
:17:46. > :17:51.Union? Have we been putting up with an ungrateful, extravagant and
:17:51. > :17:59.expensive partner for far too long? Certainly, the Bill is pretty eye-
:17:59. > :18:05.watering. In 2011, the UK's match - - national contribution was �9.5
:18:05. > :18:10.billion and we got more than 3 billion back in rebates. Isn't it
:18:10. > :18:18.about time we to be good look at what we in Wales get out of this
:18:18. > :18:25.partnership? Between 2007 and 2013 �1.8 billion was allocated for
:18:25. > :18:32.regeneration, training and job creation, roads and buildings. So
:18:32. > :18:39.far, 753 million of that total has actually been paid out. But there
:18:39. > :18:42.is more time available to spend the rest. On top of that, we've had
:18:42. > :18:46.another �2.8 billion for our farmers, Fisheries and rural
:18:46. > :18:50.communities. Praise for the European Union from faithful
:18:50. > :18:54.admirers reads like a love letter. Carwyn Jones thinks we're on to a
:18:54. > :18:59.good thing, saying of our relationship, being in Europe is
:18:59. > :19:03.good for Wales. It's good for jobs, good for our economy. The Welsh
:19:03. > :19:07.Government is deeply committed to Wales being an active partner in
:19:07. > :19:14.the European Union to help us build our economy and to help create
:19:14. > :19:18.sustainable prosperity. But critics say we might as well drop some of
:19:18. > :19:22.Our European Union millions into the water, saying we've wasted on
:19:22. > :19:26.the wrong things or not claimed it because of bureaucracy. After all,
:19:26. > :19:32.despite all the investment, West Wales and the baddies remain
:19:32. > :19:35.economically poor. Is this relationship stake in a rat or can
:19:35. > :19:39.we change? Now is the time for you to tell the Welsh Government what
:19:39. > :19:44.you want the money to be spent on and had to ensure it makes it
:19:44. > :19:54.across the water here to Wales. Has won funding round ends and another
:19:54. > :20:00.
:20:00. > :20:02.begins, is it now time for all of Joining me now is the man
:20:02. > :20:06.responsible for the Welsh Government's administration of
:20:06. > :20:13.European funding in Wales, the deputy minister of European
:20:13. > :20:18.programmes, Alun Davies. Let's begin by making it very clear. How
:20:18. > :20:25.disastrous did you say it would be if Wales was to pull out of Europe?
:20:25. > :20:30.It would be catastrophic for the economy of Wales. There are
:20:30. > :20:37.financial benefits but also our economy is linked in to the wider
:20:37. > :20:42.European economy and the wider economy which generates jobs and
:20:42. > :20:48.income for people up and down the country. I know how important it is
:20:48. > :20:57.to the economy of Wales. I hope we will continue to be a positive part
:20:57. > :21:03.of European Union. David Cameron has got a problem with Europe and
:21:03. > :21:08.he is suggesting he wants to create a distance between us and Europe.
:21:08. > :21:11.If there is a referendum in the future and England votes to decide
:21:11. > :21:15.against and Wales foot four, that is a problem for the last
:21:15. > :21:22.Government. It is an enormous problem for Wales and the whole of
:21:22. > :21:30.the UK. I have watched this debate playing out in the London media and
:21:30. > :21:34.I spent my time talking to people in the European Union about the new
:21:34. > :21:42.agricultural and fisheries policies and the new structural fund
:21:42. > :21:51.policies. But what would we do if England voted for and they voted
:21:51. > :21:57.against? Foreign affairs has always been a UK power. The interests of
:21:57. > :22:00.Wales line not only in being in the heart of Europe but being an active
:22:00. > :22:03.but this event in the debate that currently taking place about the
:22:04. > :22:07.new programmes that are being developed. Let's examine some of
:22:07. > :22:12.those programmes because we have not been very good at using Europe
:22:12. > :22:16.than in many in Wales. Cornwell had special funding status just like
:22:16. > :22:20.Wales and used their money to invest in infrastructure and the
:22:20. > :22:26.economy is doing well as a result. But here, it's a different story.
:22:26. > :22:30.We have wasted so much European money over the years. If you look
:22:30. > :22:35.at the economic story of Wales over the last decade, you will see that
:22:35. > :22:39.we have been catching up with other parts of the UK and the investment
:22:39. > :22:45.that has been made has had an enormous impact not only in terms
:22:45. > :22:48.of dry statistics but also in people's lives. They've had
:22:48. > :22:53.opportunities they wouldn't have had without this funding. We have
:22:53. > :23:00.invested in things we could not have invested in so we are having
:23:00. > :23:03.an impact. The valleys of South Wales have seemed economic and
:23:03. > :23:09.industrial decline for the last century. Anybody who believes that
:23:09. > :23:14.you can turn that around in less than 10 years does not live in the
:23:14. > :23:21.reality that I live in. That is what they're doing in Cornwall. We
:23:21. > :23:26.need to invest in jobs and not social schemes. They got the
:23:26. > :23:31.message early on. The money needs to go on infrastructure and jobs
:23:31. > :23:38.and creating new business opportunities. Is that something
:23:38. > :23:48.you're going to learn from in the future? When you actually look at
:23:48. > :23:53.the investments that have taken place, you will see that Wales is
:23:53. > :24:00.seen as an exemplar territory which has used the money well but is also
:24:00. > :24:05.continuing to plan to use it better. The announcement I made last week,
:24:05. > :24:08.the consultation starts in the next few words, it's about having this
:24:08. > :24:14.conversation about how we spend this money, the sort of
:24:14. > :24:19.relationship we want with the European Union. I hope we can have
:24:19. > :24:23.a relationship which is based on Wales taking the lead in some ways,
:24:23. > :24:28.Wales as an example part of the Union and Wales investing in
:24:28. > :24:31.further economic growth and jobs. The Crusoe message is that the
:24:31. > :24:37.relationship and the future relationship with Europe will be
:24:37. > :24:41.vital. It is essential. Thank you very much.
:24:41. > :24:44.Now onto a different kind of free market. Other high street has been
:24:44. > :24:49.suffering in the consumer downturn with shoppers keeping their hands
:24:49. > :24:53.out of the pockets and on their keyboards. Buying entertainment on
:24:53. > :24:59.the internet and not in a high- street store is having a major
:24:59. > :25:04.impact. Among the latest casualties is the music retail chain, HMV.
:25:04. > :25:09.With such giants of the high streets disappearing, what is the
:25:09. > :25:12.outlook for independent music shops left in Wales and what effect will
:25:12. > :25:22.this new age of cultural globalisation have on one of almost
:25:22. > :25:26.
:25:26. > :25:30.Time was when you could find a record shop on every high street in
:25:30. > :25:36.Wales. Remember those hours spent looking for the latest release on
:25:36. > :25:40.vinyl and then CDs. How the world has changed. The internet
:25:40. > :25:45.revolution has had a huge impact on our consumption of music and the
:25:45. > :25:51.look of our shopping centres. If the once-mighty record giant HMV
:25:51. > :25:57.does disappear from our high street that will mean they will only be a
:25:57. > :26:01.few independent record shops left across the country. Spillers in
:26:01. > :26:07.Cardiff is the oldest independent record store in at the world. It is
:26:07. > :26:11.battling on. By no means Athens rosy for this. It is as tough or
:26:11. > :26:16.less as anybody in business. Independent record shops are
:26:16. > :26:20.integral to the local music scene. They are part of the landscape. We
:26:20. > :26:26.stop a lot of up-and-coming band so put out their own music and they
:26:26. > :26:30.can come in here and it will sit alongside established bands. A lot
:26:30. > :26:36.of them sell more copies than we will have something that everybody
:26:36. > :26:40.will have heard of. Music from Wales through the 90s had a huge
:26:40. > :26:46.cultural and economic impact. The manic Street Preachers, the
:26:46. > :26:50.Stereophonics, Tom Jones and many more were part of a cool Wales
:26:50. > :26:54.which changed the perception of wells across the world. But many.
:26:54. > :26:59.Way globalisation of popular culture as a real threat to new
:26:59. > :27:07.music in both languages in Wales. So in the 21st century, will we
:27:07. > :27:16.still be the land of song? Joining the now is the radio 1 DJ,
:27:16. > :27:21.Hugh Stephens. There was a time when some of us who would go down
:27:21. > :27:27.to a shops on the Saturday and come back with a 45 but what has
:27:27. > :27:31.happened? It is an ever changing world. I still go into town on a
:27:31. > :27:37.Saturday to buy a seven-inch single. Music has changed thanks to the
:27:37. > :27:44.internet. Music is at the click of a button. People think music is
:27:44. > :27:50.free. That whole role of going in to restore and buying something and
:27:50. > :27:55.holding it and taking it home, it still does happen, there are still
:27:55. > :27:58.some great shots out there and HMV is still going so it's not over yet
:27:59. > :28:03.and I don't think it will be for a long time. There is still a high
:28:03. > :28:06.percentage of sales that are physical. Downloads are only still
:28:06. > :28:12.a small part of it but everyone can see the internet taking more and
:28:12. > :28:18.more sales from the high street. you look at the statistics, it all
:28:18. > :28:24.seems to be going the way of online sales. A high streets sales are
:28:24. > :28:31.falling. Sales of online entertainment is going up.
:28:31. > :28:35.Eventually, it will overtake physical purchases. That is the way
:28:35. > :28:41.it looks like it's going. But there is still an appetite for people to
:28:41. > :28:46.own things. The whole culture of downloading will be a shock to our
:28:46. > :28:51.generation when they get to an old age and they want to pass their
:28:51. > :28:55.collection on to somebody else.Not allowed to do that because you have
:28:55. > :28:58.bought it and it has been downloaded in your name. There is a
:28:58. > :29:03.whole array of corporate -- complications that will hit us over
:29:03. > :29:08.the next decade. But how do people make a living out of this in the
:29:08. > :29:14.future? It is really tough for musicians of all sorts. From jazz
:29:14. > :29:18.and classical to rock and folk, it is really tough. People have day
:29:18. > :29:22.jobs. Not many people do it as a full-time living apart from those
:29:22. > :29:32.who do it very successfully. The live experience is something you
:29:32. > :29:36.
:29:36. > :29:42.can't download. Those shops that we saw like Spillers are also vital in
:29:42. > :29:46.keeping the scene five -- vibrant and interesting. We do have a rich
:29:46. > :29:51.culture of venues in Wales and they play an important part as does the