:00:00. > :00:09.Tonight on The Wales Report, is Wales heading for a housing debt
:00:10. > :00:12.crisis? A Welsh trial of the Westminster benefit changes raises
:00:13. > :00:16.serious questions. Half the population of Wales is
:00:17. > :00:22.either overweight or obese and it is getting worse. Isn't it time for a
:00:23. > :00:25.mainly national initiative? With cases of human trafficking on
:00:26. > :00:31.the rise, we have the stories of those affected, and they are a lot
:00:32. > :00:39.closer than many realise. Stay with us for The Wales Report.
:00:40. > :00:43.Good evening. Welcome to The Wales Report. We examine the issues that
:00:44. > :00:48.matter to you, your job, your health, your communities, your
:00:49. > :00:50.schools, and where we question the decision makers. Tonight we look at
:00:51. > :00:54.the drastic changes to the housing benefit system instigated by the
:00:55. > :00:58.coalition Government in Westminster. Changes that some are warn willing
:00:59. > :01:03.have a devastating effect on Welsh communities. The UK Government's
:01:04. > :01:07.trial of the new universal credit in Torfaen is said to be creating
:01:08. > :01:11.serious financial problems for some vulnerable claimants. The area's
:01:12. > :01:15.biggest housing association is reporting a significant increase in
:01:16. > :01:19.rent arrears and some experts are warning that when the reforms are
:01:20. > :01:23.applied across Wales, the number of people in financial trouble will
:01:24. > :01:29.soar. Helen Callaghan has been examining the likely impact of the
:01:30. > :01:33.welfare reforms across the country. Torfaen in South Wales is a place
:01:34. > :01:38.that's seen the future. It has been one of the pilot areas for universal
:01:39. > :01:42.credit, the UK Government's new benefit scheme. The trial is meant
:01:43. > :01:49.to show the system can work, but that's not what we've discovered.
:01:50. > :01:53.Take Colin Bic, who lives in Cwmbran. She proud of his house and
:01:54. > :02:00.he's had help from the local housing association to make it his home.
:02:01. > :02:06.They did a refurb last year, on the kitchen. I love it here, so I don't
:02:07. > :02:10.want to lose it. But Colin, who has disabilities, was worried that that
:02:11. > :02:14.could happen. Until last year, his housing benefit was paid directly to
:02:15. > :02:19.his landlord. Now under the universal credit pilot scheme, it is
:02:20. > :02:24.given to him. The aim is to get people to take responsibility for
:02:25. > :02:29.their own money. For Colin, it was a daunting prospect. I find, I would
:02:30. > :02:33.have thought extra money, there forgot it was to do with that and
:02:34. > :02:37.with my disability and everything I would have thought it is extra
:02:38. > :02:43.money. I forgot it is for the landlord and I would have spent it.
:02:44. > :02:46.Col sin lucky, he volunteers with a credit union, and they've been
:02:47. > :02:50.helping them with his finances. He wouldn't be able to do it on his
:02:51. > :02:53.own. He isn't the only person in the area having difficulty. People here
:02:54. > :02:57.have struggled. A fifth of the tenants who started the pilot
:02:58. > :03:01.project have ended up going back to the old system, where rents is paid
:03:02. > :03:05.directly to their London Lords. They simply couldn't cope with doing it
:03:06. > :03:10.all themselves. But there was a cost to doing that. At the largest
:03:11. > :03:15.housing association, they believe charging those in debt extra is a
:03:16. > :03:21.serious flaw in the universal credit scheme. Some pretty hefty, I would
:03:22. > :03:25.almost describe them as punitive claw-backs that people will have
:03:26. > :03:29.deducted from their benefit to repay arrears to the point that they'll be
:03:30. > :03:32.sucking a lot of money out of the household. That's going to cause
:03:33. > :03:36.extreme poverty. Do you buy your child a pair of shoes they need or
:03:37. > :03:43.pay your rent? Those are the dilemmas people are facing. In
:03:44. > :03:46.Torfaen many on the pilot project simply failed to pay their rent.
:03:47. > :03:52.Arrears rose to more than 5%. What will happen when the scheme is
:03:53. > :03:55.rolled out across the country? The Wales Report asked a leading
:03:56. > :03:59.economist to look at the figures and analyse the potential impact for
:04:00. > :04:04.Wales. He believes substantial Government investment will be needed
:04:05. > :04:09.to make the scheme work. If lessons are not learned from the pilot
:04:10. > :04:12.project, then inevitably arrears will become a serious issue for
:04:13. > :04:17.housing associations. There should be enough support in the system to
:04:18. > :04:20.keep arrears below 5%. There must be a lot of monitoring and there must
:04:21. > :04:25.be a lot of support for tenants to move back on to direct payments and
:04:26. > :04:29.to landlord payment. You are going to need a lot of support for that. I
:04:30. > :04:34.would imagine in terms of budgets, it is difficult to put a ?1 million
:04:35. > :04:36.figure on it but you would need to put about 5 periods of the total
:04:37. > :04:43.budget into that resource pot. And as well as costing the UK Government
:04:44. > :04:47.more money in administration, this scheme could also cost housing
:04:48. > :04:52.associations. This housing association in Cardiff, which
:04:53. > :04:57.provides houses for 2,000 families in the city, has seen our figures.
:04:58. > :05:01.Its finance director told me there may be serious consequences when
:05:02. > :05:07.universal credit goes live. If it is rolled out across the UK, they're
:05:08. > :05:13.going to have problems. I think arrears for a housing association is
:05:14. > :05:16.concerning. Because we can't then build the new homes that people
:05:17. > :05:22.desperately need. It is money we can't use on other services. But
:05:23. > :05:24.there are growing concerns that the Government is ignoring those
:05:25. > :05:30.problems that have been thrown up by the pilot project. Next week
:05:31. > :05:37.universal credit will be rolled out to more locations across the UK. It
:05:38. > :05:41.is claimants like Colin who will be living with the day-to-day
:05:42. > :05:45.consequences. That was Helen Callaghan reporting.
:05:46. > :05:48.Joining us from our Westminster studio is the Wales Office Minister
:05:49. > :05:54.Stephen Crabb. Thank you for joining us. No problem. Are you concerned by
:05:55. > :05:56.the arrears figures? Do they tell us that this scheme is fraught with
:05:57. > :06:02.risk? The figures don't tell us what the final scheme will look like.
:06:03. > :06:04.This wasn't a pilot project as such, but demonstration project. What we
:06:05. > :06:10.saw in Torfaen was one of six projects around the country that
:06:11. > :06:16.tested different ways of supporting tenants as we make this big change
:06:17. > :06:19.from paying their housing benefit direct to landlords rather than
:06:20. > :06:24.paying the benefit to them, so that they manage their own finances. In
:06:25. > :06:27.each of these six areas we've been looking at different ways of
:06:28. > :06:31.supporting tenants and learning the lessons from them. We are looking
:06:32. > :06:35.closely at the figures that arose from the Torfaen project and seeing
:06:36. > :06:39.exactly what safeguards need to get put in place to protect the tenants,
:06:40. > :06:43.to protect the housing associations, and the landlords themselves from
:06:44. > :06:47.the risk to their revenue, which was highlighted in your piece there. We
:06:48. > :06:50.are coming up with a package which I believe will make universal credit
:06:51. > :06:55.robust as it is rolled out across Wales. When you talk about
:06:56. > :06:58.protecting tenants, like our cais study, who has learning
:06:59. > :07:01.disabilities, someone many would consider is in a vulnerable
:07:02. > :07:08.position, would the lessons learned be that someone like him shouldn't
:07:09. > :07:13.be involved in the project? Partly from the evidence from Torfaen and
:07:14. > :07:16.other projects, people with severe challenges in life, people
:07:17. > :07:22.struggling be alcohol dependency, drug abuse, people with learning
:07:23. > :07:24.disabilities as well, for those people payment of their benefit will
:07:25. > :07:29.still go direct to their London Lord to protect them in that way. But the
:07:30. > :07:32.starting point for universal credit, this is the huge change, will be
:07:33. > :07:36.that the vast majority of people are able to manage their own finances.
:07:37. > :07:39.We should expect them to manage their own finances. And actually
:07:40. > :07:42.when you look at the Torfaen figures, the results from the
:07:43. > :07:48.project there, the vast majority of people were able to manage their own
:07:49. > :07:52.finances. Part of the way we tackle entrenched welfare dependency in
:07:53. > :07:56.Wales is by changing the mind-set, encouraging people to be responsible
:07:57. > :08:02.with finances and giving them the support to help them to do so. But
:08:03. > :08:04.our case study was someone with clear learning dibble pis who has
:08:05. > :08:08.been sucked into this scheme. It was that a mistake? No, it is part of
:08:09. > :08:12.the learning from the demonstration project. If a tenant falls into two
:08:13. > :08:17.consecutive months arrears there'll be an automatic switch-back to
:08:18. > :08:20.paying the benefit direct to the landlord, and providing the support
:08:21. > :08:25.to the tenant to help them get out of arrears. There'll be that
:08:26. > :08:28.safeguard in place. Why is this claw-back business that we heard in
:08:29. > :08:34.the film such a punishing one? Why are the measures being taken in
:08:35. > :08:38.terms of arrears so punitive, and some people argue multiply the scale
:08:39. > :08:43.of the problem for the individuals involved? I don't recognise the
:08:44. > :08:48.figures that were used in the piece, Huw, but we'll look at that. Clearly
:08:49. > :08:51.if a tenant falls into arrears, haven't kept up with their rent
:08:52. > :08:56.payments, there has to ba way for them to pay back what's owed.
:08:57. > :09:00.Clearly that needs to be a moderate and a sustainable way, or they will
:09:01. > :09:04.fall into greater difficulty. This claw-back is not seen to be a
:09:05. > :09:08.moderate way is it? It is seen to be by those people in the system, the
:09:09. > :09:13.claw-back terms your Government is putting into position are extremely
:09:14. > :09:16.harsh, do you not see that? I make the point this was a demonstration
:09:17. > :09:21.project, one of six looking at different ways of tacking the
:09:22. > :09:23.problem. We shouldn't see the Torfaen results and some of the
:09:24. > :09:27.challenges you highlight from that as the final outcome. It is all
:09:28. > :09:31.going into the mix of things we need to look careful at to make sure we
:09:32. > :09:36.get the right outcome so that universal credit achieves positive
:09:37. > :09:40.fruit that we intend it to in Wales. And viewers draw the conclusion that
:09:41. > :09:46.the claw-back terms would be revised works they be right? We monitor
:09:47. > :09:49.these constantly to make sure problems aren't been exacerbated and
:09:50. > :09:55.we'll see what lessons are to be learned from Torfaen to ensure that
:09:56. > :09:56.the final outcome when we roll out universal credit in Wales is fair
:09:57. > :10:03.and it delivers benefits that we intend it to. Let's not forget that
:10:04. > :10:09.200,000 families in Wales will see their average benefit entitlement
:10:10. > :10:15.under universal credit incareers by ?160 per month. There's lot to be
:10:16. > :10:20.gained for Wales in the roll-out of universal credit. It is important
:10:21. > :10:24.that we tackle the teething problems but let's look at the bigger picture
:10:25. > :10:28.that welfare reform will deliver for our economy and society. What is
:10:29. > :10:32.your message to the housing associations will face increase
:10:33. > :10:36.costs if they are looking to chase areerksds they have administrative
:10:37. > :10:39.costs attached to. That will you put your hand in your pocket and give
:10:40. > :10:42.them a bit of help or not? The Government is making available
:10:43. > :10:45.substantial resources to ease the transition to the roll-out of
:10:46. > :10:50.universal credit. Part of that is working with the housing
:10:51. > :10:53.associations. But clearly from the demonstration projects, one of the
:10:54. > :10:56.things we need to be doing is talking closely with the housing
:10:57. > :11:00.association, finding out what works and what doesn't. Finding out ways
:11:01. > :11:03.they can better support their tenants of the one of the challenges
:11:04. > :11:07.here is encouraging housing associations and other landlords to
:11:08. > :11:10.understand their tenants' needs better, to help support them and to
:11:11. > :11:15.be part of the solution in this. Minister, thank you for joining us.
:11:16. > :11:18.The latest health research confirms that more than half the people in
:11:19. > :11:22.Wales are classed as overweight or even obese and the nation's
:11:23. > :11:28.waistlines are expanding year on year. Over the past few weeks BBC
:11:29. > :11:33.Wales has a special season of programmes, Live Longer Wales, has
:11:34. > :11:38.been looking at what people can do and what Government agencies can do
:11:39. > :11:44.to tackle what is called the modern Welsh epidemic. With me is one of
:11:45. > :11:48.the world's leading experts on beerfcts head of the Sandford school
:11:49. > :11:51.of policy in North Carolina. He's investigated the Welsh weight
:11:52. > :11:56.problem and says people can't be relied upon to make the right
:11:57. > :12:00.choices. We can count on personal responsibility that reveal with
:12:01. > :12:04.problems of obesity but it is contrary to the way we address
:12:05. > :12:08.problems of health in general. We have a very unhealthy food
:12:09. > :12:14.environmentment some people have the willpower and restraint to prevail
:12:15. > :12:20.over it. But obesity is stampeding out of control. So, in an exclusive
:12:21. > :12:24.poll for BBC Wales we asked you what you think. Do politicians and public
:12:25. > :12:27.authorities need to do more? Firstly a strong majority of those asked
:12:28. > :12:32.believe that TV adverts for junk food should be banned before 9.
:12:33. > :12:35.00pm. 65% of you think that the
:12:36. > :12:38.Government's robust antismoking measure shoes be the template for
:12:39. > :12:42.action against obesity. But there is a limit to the appeal
:12:43. > :12:46.of state intervention. 73% of those questioned did not want Government
:12:47. > :12:49.telling them what they should and shouldn't eat.
:12:50. > :12:55.Our health correspondent has been treating himself to some cake and
:12:56. > :13:01.some pop at the Senedd to see what politician are planning.
:13:02. > :13:05.What's the healthiest cake you've got? It is probably the carrot cake.
:13:06. > :13:14.You've convinced me, can I have a clies of that and a bottle of pop,
:13:15. > :13:22.please? Yes, no problem. That looks fantastic Thank you. When the slices
:13:23. > :13:26.are this big and the cake looks so good it is easy to succumb to
:13:27. > :13:30.temptation. But in an effort to get the grips with our expanding
:13:31. > :13:34.waistlines is it time for the Welsh Government to say enough is enough,
:13:35. > :13:38.you've had your fill? Over the years millions of pounds have been spent
:13:39. > :13:43.on initiatives to try and make us healthier, to eat better and to
:13:44. > :13:47.exercise. But is just getting us to eat more carrots instead of carrot
:13:48. > :13:51.cake enough? Or is it time the Welsh Government starts wielding a very
:13:52. > :13:56.big stick? I can tell you they've been thinking about it.
:13:57. > :13:59.Around this time last year, the Welsh Government asked for views on
:14:00. > :14:04.whether or not there should be a new law on pillow health. The response,
:14:05. > :14:10.they say, has been encouraging. They've been cooking up ideas about
:14:11. > :14:13.what it could involve. Banning supersides portions in restaurants
:14:14. > :14:20.perhaps or prohibiting fast food places being located close to
:14:21. > :14:24.schools. And it is not just the Government. Plaid Cymru recently
:14:25. > :14:28.announced if they came to power they would put a levy on sugary drinks.
:14:29. > :14:35.Cheers. So will the new public health law
:14:36. > :14:38.become a reality? The answer the Welsh Government's Chief Medical
:14:39. > :14:43.Officer gave me was, wait and see. Could it be a key ingredient in the
:14:44. > :14:46.effort to make us healthier or are Ministers slowly losing their
:14:47. > :14:50.appetite amid concerns of a nanny state?
:14:51. > :14:57.As you can see there's plenty to chew over.
:14:58. > :15:02.Is that the biggest piece of carrot cake I've ever seen? I don't think
:15:03. > :15:06.I've ever been served a portion like that in my life.
:15:07. > :15:10.Chris has been involved in consultations with the Welsh
:15:11. > :15:13.Government on beerfcts and Andrew is leader of the Welsh Conservatives.
:15:14. > :15:17.Thank you both for coming in. Chris, what is the case for public health
:15:18. > :15:22.law which takes some of the measures that Owain was mentioning there? I
:15:23. > :15:26.think there is a case. We certainly are finding that lots of people are
:15:27. > :15:31.overeating. Unless we legislate and perhaps help them to eat healthily,
:15:32. > :15:34.this situation is just going to get worse and worse. Where is the
:15:35. > :15:38.evidence that legislating will encourage people? There is some
:15:39. > :15:43.evidence. But I think perhaps Wales needs now to be the leader here,
:15:44. > :15:48.because we've got the opportunity to do something. Certainly as
:15:49. > :15:53.dieticians, we think that public health Wales needs to take the lead
:15:54. > :15:58.in terms of legislating or perhaps educating people in a way that they
:15:59. > :16:04.can understand. And certainly some projects that I've worked on over
:16:05. > :16:08.the years I've seen that happy. Andrew, the problem is that being
:16:09. > :16:12.nice and offering polite advice, clearly it hasn't worked. Getting
:16:13. > :16:17.people to take responsibility for themselves or their families in far
:16:18. > :16:22.too many cases hasn't worked, so we are on to the legislative option. Do
:16:23. > :16:26.you think that's reasonable? I struggle on the legislative option,
:16:27. > :16:30.because actually it is an objective opinion as to what is bad for you
:16:31. > :16:34.and what's good for you. We need to be looking at lifestyle in its
:16:35. > :16:37.entirety, whether it is exercise, what we eat, the environment we live
:16:38. > :16:42.in and indeed the planning system we use to create eur cities, towns and
:16:43. > :16:45.villages and the way that food is put before us. From your tape there
:16:46. > :16:50.there was a sizeable piece of cake there. What size is a reasonable
:16:51. > :16:54.portion? What might be reasonable to you is most probably a small portion
:16:55. > :16:59.to me, with the greatest. Are it is about accepting the individual
:17:00. > :17:03.ultimately has to be at the centre of the debate. Understood. But that
:17:04. > :17:08.is a familiar argument that you put clearly there. Again, the problem's
:17:09. > :17:12.getting worse, so clearly that argument so far hasn't been an
:17:13. > :17:18.effective one. At what point due begin to think that legislating is
:17:19. > :17:21.going to help in some instances? The point I would put back to you is
:17:22. > :17:25.public health Wales came out recently and highlighted many of
:17:26. > :17:28.their campaigns which haven't succeeded, because the messaging
:17:29. > :17:31.either hasn't been strong enough or they haven't been hitting their
:17:32. > :17:34.target audience. It is an objective opinion here. If you are going to
:17:35. > :17:38.shape legislation, who is the person who is going to say what is an
:17:39. > :17:44.unhealthy meal and what is a healthy meal? What weather is a good-sized
:17:45. > :17:49.portion and what is bad? Is it common sense? It's not as simple as
:17:50. > :17:51.that. The entire system, is it goes from planning, what we make
:17:52. > :17:56.available for people to consider size and the food we consume and the
:17:57. > :18:00.lifestyle we lead in the 21st century. Chris, give me an example
:18:01. > :18:06.of a measure that could be legislated on which you think would
:18:07. > :18:11.have a measurable impact on this problem. I think making sure we've
:18:12. > :18:15.got good public health messages and certainly making sure the advice
:18:16. > :18:18.that we give people is connect. I would say that that advice is there
:18:19. > :18:23.already. It is but the problem is there are lots of other people
:18:24. > :18:25.chipping in on this. What we are finding in practice is that people
:18:26. > :18:31.are confused about what they should be eating. To whack that -- to back
:18:32. > :18:37.that up we need more money invested. There are so few dieticians in
:18:38. > :18:41.Wales, the total number is less than 300. There is not a lot we can do
:18:42. > :18:47.with those small numbers. I think we need to look at certainly
:18:48. > :18:52.legislating in terms of not allowing them to put fast food restaurants
:18:53. > :18:56.near schools. That's quite important. That's one. And I think
:18:57. > :19:00.also, perhaps we ought to look at legislating on things like fizzy
:19:01. > :19:04.drinks. You would have to put a lot of tax on a fizzy drink to prevent
:19:05. > :19:08.people from buying them. I think that is an issue. What about TV
:19:09. > :19:15.adverts? TV adverts definitely I think need to change, because they
:19:16. > :19:18.are being, I think they are flouting the rules, particularly on
:19:19. > :19:24.terrestrial TV. I think we need to look at that as well. Fizzy drinks,
:19:25. > :19:28.a big levy on fizzy drinks works that make sense to you? I think it
:19:29. > :19:34.was a conference speech. As a measure. A tax which they were
:19:35. > :19:37.talking about, which relice on people drinking more fizzy drinks so
:19:38. > :19:40.you can create more medical positions. I think the argument is
:19:41. > :19:44.more nuanced than that. I was involved in a campaign to promote
:19:45. > :19:49.school milk. I found out that schools were offered inducements to
:19:50. > :19:53.stop vending MPs with fizzy and sugary drinks in them. Those
:19:54. > :19:57.messages and inducements need to be stopped. That doesn't need
:19:58. > :20:00.legislation. We don't need Government involving themselves in
:20:01. > :20:05.every facet of lives. We need stronger public health messages.
:20:06. > :20:07.Look at the way the fast food industry operates. They have mentals
:20:08. > :20:15.that are resentive to people. We in the public sector and public health
:20:16. > :20:19.have to get sharper and more critical in our messaging, because
:20:20. > :20:23.this is killing people prematurely. And it is killing people younger and
:20:24. > :20:27.younger each year that passes. Is legislation the way to do it? I
:20:28. > :20:31.suggest to you I don't think at the moment that argument's been made and
:20:32. > :20:35.I would be very concerned about interfering as a politician in the
:20:36. > :20:39.choices that people have to make as individuals. Good to talk to you
:20:40. > :20:42.both. Thank you for coming in. There's been no shortage of stories
:20:43. > :20:46.in recent years about human trafficking. The UK is especially
:20:47. > :20:51.vulnerable because of its thousands of miles of coastline and Wales
:20:52. > :20:55.shares some of that vulnerability. Cases of human trafficking have
:20:56. > :20:59.risen bay quarter in the past year. And victims are often targeted to
:21:00. > :21:04.provide cheap labour, to join gangs of beggars or even for sexual
:21:05. > :21:11.exploitation. The writer and director Jennifer Hartley has been
:21:12. > :21:24.collecting the stories of people in Wales for a tour. He hit me on the
:21:25. > :21:35.face. He pulled me by hair into a room and hit me. I do, I do not
:21:36. > :21:45.understand. I hear a girl screaming. Then I he rape me Human trafficking
:21:46. > :21:51.is a problem that's happening on our doorstep. It is not somebody else's
:21:52. > :21:53.problems, it is ours and it is a growing problem and it will become
:21:54. > :21:59.more and more our problem if we don't do something about it. This
:22:00. > :22:08.man, he tell me he has friend who bring me to the UK, where I will get
:22:09. > :22:15.help. I am happy. I am very happy. I think I start new life.
:22:16. > :22:20.You've got people who are coming over from abroad with promises that
:22:21. > :22:25.they can be models or offers of work. And a lot of them are with
:22:26. > :22:36.recruiting agencies that are set up by the traffickers in various
:22:37. > :22:46.countries, Eastern Europe, wherever. He said this is modelling. We must
:22:47. > :22:54.do this model for anyone, he say, and if I say no, they give me drug.
:22:55. > :22:58.I started to hear the stories and work with these people I couldn't
:22:59. > :23:06.believe not just that it was in the UK, as big as it was, and that it
:23:07. > :23:12.involved British people, not just foreigners coming in from outside.
:23:13. > :23:18.But also that it was literally on my doorstep, being in Wales. Sometimes
:23:19. > :23:21.when you take the pills you think you've got it, like you don't know
:23:22. > :23:29.what's real no more, but it don't matter. Then you don't care what you
:23:30. > :23:37.do to you. Education of the public and education of the youth I think
:23:38. > :23:42.would be mainly steps towards help not eradicate the problem, I can't
:23:43. > :23:45.see it ever been eradicate casmtd it's a multimillion dollar business.
:23:46. > :23:54.Which is a horrific thing to see, but it is true. The and within that
:23:55. > :24:03.life is very cheap. You can see and you can hear, but you stopped to
:24:04. > :24:11.feel. Joining me to discuss some of the issues raised by that dramatic
:24:12. > :24:14.representation is Steven Chapman, the anti- man trafficking
:24:15. > :24:19.co-ordinator for Wales. Thank you for coming in. Thank you. The fact
:24:20. > :24:22.that your job exists tells us there is a problem. What's the scale of
:24:23. > :24:25.the problem in Wales? We don't really know. Most people say what we
:24:26. > :24:31.are dealing with is the tip of the iceberg. Last year there was only 34
:24:32. > :24:34.cases referred to the national referral mechanism but we know
:24:35. > :24:41.there's a lot more people out there who need rescuing. When we talk
:24:42. > :24:50.about trafficking the perception is it is often Eastern European people
:24:51. > :24:56.being taken advantage of, being shipped into this country by
:24:57. > :25:01.unscrupulous people. First of all can we say let's dispel that myth
:25:02. > :25:05.about people coming to the UK. Yes people are being trafficked here but
:25:06. > :25:11.we've got people being taken from the UK and being trafficked abroad.
:25:12. > :25:14.We've seen cases of people being trafficked internally within the
:25:15. > :25:19.United Kingdom. I don't think we want to stereotype there is any
:25:20. > :25:24.particular type of person being trafficked. In a Welsh context,
:25:25. > :25:27.given that you have this role, what can you tell us about the nature of
:25:28. > :25:31.the problem in Wales that is maybe different to other parts of the UK.
:25:32. > :25:34.Are we more vulnerable? I wouldn't say we are more vulnerable, but the
:25:35. > :25:39.Welsh Government is really leading on this. What we've said is we want
:25:40. > :25:43.to make Wales hostile to human trafficking but we also want to
:25:44. > :25:47.provide the best possible support to people who've been trafficked. If we
:25:48. > :25:50.get that right we'll make our communities safer. When you talk
:25:51. > :25:55.about the problem in a specific Welsh context, that's to say we are
:25:56. > :25:59.not talking about people coming from abroad but problems which are at
:26:00. > :26:02.home, how do they manifest themselves? What are some of the
:26:03. > :26:07.cases you've come across that would make you think that actually there's
:26:08. > :26:10.a problem here, that we are not really dealing with properly? A lot
:26:11. > :26:16.of people say that human trafficking is hidden. It is not. We need to
:26:17. > :26:20.shine a light on it. Yes, we've got people in the sex trade. We've got
:26:21. > :26:24.people working in labour who've being exploited. We've got children
:26:25. > :26:27.being exploited. What we've got to do is an awareness of the public.
:26:28. > :26:32.They need to be switched on to this. Just as we are switched on now to
:26:33. > :26:36.domestic abuse, which was seen a decade or so ago as being a hidden
:26:37. > :26:40.crime, we've got to make the public aware of it, because it is happening
:26:41. > :26:45.here. It is happening in Wales in our back yard. Are you saying that
:26:46. > :26:49.there are people who will know of instances of what you deem to be
:26:50. > :26:55.human trafficking but maybe don't characterise it as that? Yes, and
:26:56. > :27:01.what I say is, if you do suspect human trafficking, if it is urgent
:27:02. > :27:06.it is 999 to the police or if it is not urgent, 111. If you want to
:27:07. > :27:10.remain anonymous, we've got Crimestoppers. There are many ways
:27:11. > :27:15.of reporting it. Some people don't feel confident to report. They
:27:16. > :27:19.think, I might be a bit silly. That person I saw, is I don't really
:27:20. > :27:22.know. What I'm trying to say, if you are in doubt, make the call to the
:27:23. > :27:27.experts, who will send someone to deal. A final point about your role.
:27:28. > :27:31.There is a view in some quarters that although you are doing the best
:27:32. > :27:34.that you can, you are too close to the Government, you are part of the
:27:35. > :27:38.Government and maybe it should be a more independent person with more
:27:39. > :27:42.resources and more ability to act in a more robust way. What is your
:27:43. > :27:45.answer to that? The issue is of course I'm close to the Government,
:27:46. > :27:49.I'm a civil servant employed by the Welsh Government. But what we've
:27:50. > :27:56.heard recently is that the UK Government is going to introduce a
:27:57. > :28:00.modern savoury Act. As part of that there'll be the role of an
:28:01. > :28:03.independent UK Commissioner. Until that happens, people are still
:28:04. > :28:08.suffering. Traffickers are getting away with it who need to be brought
:28:09. > :28:11.to justice. And not only brought to justice but we need to take their
:28:12. > :28:15.assets off them. I think what we've done in Wales we are leading the
:28:16. > :28:19.way. Steven Chapman. Thank you. That's it for this week's programme.
:28:20. > :28:21.If you have any comments on the issues discussed tonight, you are
:28:22. > :28:33.welcome to get in touch. We'll be back next Wednesday. Until
:28:34. > :28:39.then, thank you for watching, goodnight.