:00:00. > :00:07.Tonight on the Wales Report: Testing times for Welsh education - with the
:00:08. > :00:13.results of international league tables soon to be announced will
:00:14. > :00:17.Wales make the grade? What can be done to tackle poverty
:00:18. > :00:21.in rural communities across Wales? We have a special report.
:00:22. > :00:26.And what will the vote on independence in Scotland mean for
:00:27. > :00:36.devolution here in Wales? Stay with us for the Wales Report.
:00:37. > :00:41.Good evening and welcome to the Wales Report - the programme that
:00:42. > :00:44.examines the issues that affect lives in Wales and questions the
:00:45. > :00:48.decision makers. Education in Wales is currently at a critical juncture.
:00:49. > :00:51.Five of Wales 22 local education authorities are in special measures,
:00:52. > :00:59.and yesterday AM's clashed over the future of education provision in
:01:00. > :01:01.Wales. Next week, Wales faces the next test, as the international
:01:02. > :01:05.league tables for 15-year-olds known as PISA will be published. In the
:01:06. > :01:08.last round, three years ago, Wales was ranked lowest of the UK
:01:09. > :01:11.countries in the tests that compare literacy, maths and science. The
:01:12. > :01:14.poor performance led to wide-ranging changes to education here but last
:01:15. > :01:17.week Education Minister Huw Lewis warned that parents should not
:01:18. > :01:22.expect to see a great improvement. Here's our Education Correspondent
:01:23. > :01:29.Arwyn Jones. We live in and disconnected --
:01:30. > :01:32.interconnect world. Education is a commodity for governments, a badge
:01:33. > :01:35.of honour as well as a tool to attract businesses and the Welsh
:01:36. > :01:42.government is no different. At the heart of it all, P. In Wales we have
:01:43. > :01:49.always been rather proud of our education system. This idea of a
:01:50. > :01:55.self educated working class who saw books out of poverty has always been
:01:56. > :01:57.a large part of our national consciousness but we have come a
:01:58. > :02:03.long way from those days of chalk and back boards and next week we
:02:04. > :02:09.find out how Wales has fared in the so-called PISA rankings. When the
:02:10. > :02:13.last results came out, it was a wake-up call.
:02:14. > :02:19.These results are disappointing. They show an unacceptable fall in
:02:20. > :02:23.our overall performance. Everyone involved in the education sector in
:02:24. > :02:29.Wales should be alarmed. There can be no alibis and no excuses.
:02:30. > :02:34.As a consequence, we have seen a raft of changes to the education
:02:35. > :02:39.system. There have been changes to the way the information we get from
:02:40. > :02:47.our schools is measured. Children as young as seven now sit and examine
:02:48. > :02:50.every year. Schools are placed into bands and teachers follow a few
:02:51. > :02:56.framework in the classroom, or following on from those results
:02:57. > :03:01.three years ago. There might be another answer...
:03:02. > :03:05.Taking the government 's lead, some schools like this one in Carmarthen
:03:06. > :03:09.now include PISA style questions in their lessons. Not just to improve
:03:10. > :03:15.our standing in the league tables but they say to improve education
:03:16. > :03:19.overall. Having results compared with
:03:20. > :03:22.students all over the world, it is not the easiest thing to hear when
:03:23. > :03:25.you are being tested but at the same time, I think that is quite good
:03:26. > :03:30.because it is not just trying to beat the other countries. It is
:03:31. > :03:38.trying to work out who's educational system is working better than
:03:39. > :03:41.others. In the PISA questions, you have so many sources of information,
:03:42. > :03:47.they have to bring their everyday experiences into answering these
:03:48. > :03:50.questions. What we feel these people have been doing over the last two
:03:51. > :03:55.years is progressing as far as using their own strategies.
:03:56. > :03:58.On one hand it is never again because I feel like I am being
:03:59. > :04:05.judged but then it is like a beast because I'm really competitive. --
:04:06. > :04:08.like a boost. Despite these changes and the
:04:09. > :04:12.expectations of these pupils, education Minister Huw Lewis has
:04:13. > :04:15.already started preparing us for disappointment when the latest
:04:16. > :04:22.results emerge next week. The next results will relate to
:04:23. > :04:25.2012, when hardly any of those programmes for improvements have had
:04:26. > :04:31.a chance to bite into the system, if you like. I would anticipate that
:04:32. > :04:33.any realistic person would look to the next set of PISA results with
:04:34. > :04:39.caution. The Welsh and have put a lock of
:04:40. > :04:43.emphasis on climbing up the international league table. They
:04:44. > :04:49.want to be in the top 20 countries by 2015, the next round of tests.
:04:50. > :04:54.That was always going to be a huge challenge and some are now saying it
:04:55. > :04:59.is a test to file but when I recently caught up with the head of
:05:00. > :05:04.PISA in London, he agreed it was not in possible.
:05:05. > :05:08.It is a significant challenge but at the same time, if you look at the
:05:09. > :05:12.most rapidly improving education systems, that pace of progress is
:05:13. > :05:16.rarely possible if you think about Poland or at the bottom of the
:05:17. > :05:21.league, Brazil. It is one of the lowest performing countries. The
:05:22. > :05:24.pace of change there is the one that could bring a place like Wales well
:05:25. > :05:30.into the top 20. There is hope that the standing of
:05:31. > :05:33.Wales in the international rankings could improve but to throw a further
:05:34. > :05:40.convocation into this mix, there are now some who say this PISA game is
:05:41. > :05:43.one we may not want to pay. This is just one set of data and
:05:44. > :05:48.international comparisons. This is all they are and they were never
:05:49. > :05:51.meant to define an education system. PISA say that is not what they are
:05:52. > :05:54.for but the minister chose to use them to say we have a crisis in our
:05:55. > :06:00.education system. The question that needs to be asked is do we want an
:06:01. > :06:05.education system that is fit for purpose or fit for PISA?
:06:06. > :06:07.Arwyn Jones reporting. Joining me now is education expert and advisor
:06:08. > :06:12.to the Welsh Government, Professor David Reynolds.
:06:13. > :06:16.Good evening. What do you expect next week? I haven't seen the
:06:17. > :06:20.figures and identical them to be particularly good.
:06:21. > :06:24.I wouldn't be surprised if we got the wooden spoon and were bottom of
:06:25. > :06:29.the four UK home nations, as it were. I think it is possible we may
:06:30. > :06:34.even do slightly worse. Further decline?
:06:35. > :06:37.It is possible because a lot of the policies are only beginning to
:06:38. > :06:42.impact now. So we are talking about a three year
:06:43. > :06:47.gap but that was in it -- was not enough time?
:06:48. > :06:51.Three years in a short period of time but you are trying to do in
:06:52. > :06:57.three years what wasn't done in the preceding ten. If you look about the
:06:58. > :07:04.world, governments did an awful lot wherever you look and we tended not
:07:05. > :07:09.to. What we did was with the Twickenham, not teaching.
:07:10. > :07:12.After devolution, you say that we took our eyes off the ball in
:07:13. > :07:15.education? We looked at the wrong ball. We
:07:16. > :07:21.changed the curriculum and things like the Welsh baccalaureate.
:07:22. > :07:25.Absolutely fine. We did not realise and I think we were stupid, that we
:07:26. > :07:28.did not actually get the teaching methods improving.
:07:29. > :07:32.So the Welsh government was stupid in terms of dictation?
:07:33. > :07:36.I said we, which includes everyone involved in education.
:07:37. > :07:42.They run it! You can't do the curriculum without
:07:43. > :07:45.doing the teaching and in most societies did was curriculum reform
:07:46. > :07:49.but they empowered teachers. They gave teachers capacity to be better
:07:50. > :07:52.professionals. We are doing that now but we didn't then.
:07:53. > :07:56.We are talking about a period where Jane Davidson was education
:07:57. > :08:01.Minister. She scrapped testing and so forth. She brought in the
:08:02. > :08:05.foundation phase but was she wrong to stop testing?
:08:06. > :08:10.My own view is yes, that harmed us. There is evidence done by
:08:11. > :08:17.researchers from Bristol and my own view is that you need demand to
:08:18. > :08:21.operate in a country, which is parents demanding that schools get
:08:22. > :08:24.better, as well as supply, and what we didn't do was put performance
:08:25. > :08:29.data into the public domain so the parents would know what is going on.
:08:30. > :08:31.The best way of improving the school system is for parents to push to
:08:32. > :08:37.improve it and for them to choose. We didn't put the data out to help
:08:38. > :08:40.them do that. For parents in Wales Today who are
:08:41. > :08:44.clearly worried about Little Johnny heading to school every day, read
:08:45. > :08:48.there is something seriously wrong with the Welsh education system. We
:08:49. > :08:54.read the bad news on an almost daily basis. What is the message? I'll be
:08:55. > :09:02.getting back on track and by 2015 all will be well? Is that little
:09:03. > :09:05.comfort to today's parents? In my business we expect things to
:09:06. > :09:09.get better in education when things like attendance start to pick up and
:09:10. > :09:14.children start going back to school and that is happening in Wales. I
:09:15. > :09:21.sense there is change but after ten years of May be doing not the right
:09:22. > :09:25.thing, it is getting an awful lot of things done in the three years which
:09:26. > :09:28.is the problem. Will be PISA results in 2015 be
:09:29. > :09:31.better? Will all have these things kicked in?
:09:32. > :09:38.I think they will be better but I think the 2015 testing which is
:09:39. > :09:42.under two years from now, that 2015 testing will be in science, where we
:09:43. > :09:48.start with a big advantage because we actually are on the world average
:09:49. > :09:52.performance for science. Our best chance ever is to get it right with
:09:53. > :09:56.science for the testing in 2015 but, with respect, I think for 2015
:09:57. > :09:59.to be good, there are things we have to do.
:10:00. > :10:03.If you ask teachers, they say there is an awful lot of change going on
:10:04. > :10:08.and it is never settled. It is never allowed to bed in. They say they
:10:09. > :10:12.need politicians to back off. Would that work?
:10:13. > :10:15.I think it is reasonable for politicians to say, look, we have
:10:16. > :10:21.announced everything we can do and let back off and see if parents can
:10:22. > :10:28.improve things. Let's actually see if the system starts moving. I think
:10:29. > :10:31.in the next year, someone has to make the judgement about whether
:10:32. > :10:35.things are improving fast enough. At the moment it is the right decision
:10:36. > :10:39.that we let things bed in but if it hasn't worked a year from now, we
:10:40. > :10:43.have to do more to get a good result in 2015.
:10:44. > :10:48.Education in Wales used to be a batch of honour. You can't say that,
:10:49. > :10:52.really, today, can you? Will those days return?
:10:53. > :10:58.I think yes. If we are clever and we learn. I think in Wales we speak as
:10:59. > :11:02.though we are always a failure in education but we saved a minority
:11:03. > :11:07.language. We save Welsh through the education system so we did something
:11:08. > :11:11.right. In the 1970s we ran a fine education system here. It is not
:11:12. > :11:15.that we don't know how to educate children but somewhere something
:11:16. > :11:19.went wrong. We can be discover that and I would be interested in seeing
:11:20. > :11:22.the Welsh government find out why we have in successful with the Welsh
:11:23. > :11:27.language and we are a success in science and maths and reading and we
:11:28. > :11:29.should tell everybody more about what we need to do.
:11:30. > :11:33.Thank you. The divide between urban and rural
:11:34. > :11:36.Wales is wider than ever before with poverty a blight on rural
:11:37. > :11:40.communities across the country. The Wales Report has seen figures that
:11:41. > :11:43.show one organisation geared to help rural areas has paid out three times
:11:44. > :11:55.more money in the first nine months of this year than in the same period
:11:56. > :11:58.last year. David Williams has been back to his roots in North Wales to
:11:59. > :11:59.discover what has been done to reverse the fortunes of a
:12:00. > :12:28.countryside in decline. The melodious tones emanating from
:12:29. > :12:31.this primary school in North Wales helped to dampen rather more
:12:32. > :12:35.disturbing notes which now resonate in the beautiful countryside in
:12:36. > :12:47.which these countries are growing up in. It doesn't take a scientist to
:12:48. > :12:51.tell you that this school is going to close pretty school. -- pretty
:12:52. > :12:55.soon. When you get into that downward spiral of that school
:12:56. > :12:58.closing, there is no teachers and there is less implement so there is
:12:59. > :13:03.less need for people. Poverty and hardship now threaten to
:13:04. > :13:09.bite a whole new generation of young people. Back in the day, I used to
:13:10. > :13:13.sit at this desk and I was expect to be a model pupil because the man
:13:14. > :13:16.standing at the front, the, was my father. In return for personal
:13:17. > :13:26.effort, he infused us with hope. Many of my fellow pupils were the
:13:27. > :13:29.sons and daughters of those who farmed the land around the school.
:13:30. > :13:35.Generations before them had done the same. They had struggled, certainly,
:13:36. > :13:40.but there was no doubt that those who wished to continue on the farm
:13:41. > :13:46.would be allowed to do so. That is no longer a certainty. The school
:13:47. > :13:51.now has just 20 pupils, only half of them have parents with any
:13:52. > :14:00.connection with farming and only one lives on a farm. The way of life is
:14:01. > :14:08.in danger of disappearing. This man, aged 83, has farmed here all
:14:09. > :14:11.his life. I remember him. He was an enduring site in the field and on
:14:12. > :14:19.the hills around here. A constant in the landscape. His family have been
:14:20. > :14:24.tenants here for over a century in what was a Welsh speaking heartland.
:14:25. > :14:29.He had hoped that one of his two children would take over from him
:14:30. > :14:37.but the farm's for income now make that unlikely. In Welsh, his anguish
:14:38. > :14:41.of choice, he explained to me that his children's decision is a cause
:14:42. > :15:21.of pain and anguish for him and his wife.
:15:22. > :15:28.He is himself on the point of giving up farming. Many more like him are
:15:29. > :15:32.on the edge of the financial abyss, forced to look for help. Their
:15:33. > :15:38.plight is reflected in part of the dramatic rise of the numbers seeking
:15:39. > :15:43.assistance from the Royal agricultural benevolent institution,
:15:44. > :15:47.a charity. The scale of the problem becomes clear when you read this,
:15:48. > :15:52.and internal briefing drawn up by the institution, and the figures
:15:53. > :16:00.here have not been released publicly until now. What they show is a
:16:01. > :16:05.worrying trend. In Wales, in the first nine months of this year, the
:16:06. > :16:10.amount of grants paid out to farmers in need by the institution was three
:16:11. > :16:16.times as many as in the same period last year. The figures translate
:16:17. > :16:24.into cash hand-outs being given to almost 100 working farmers. Compared
:16:25. > :16:31.with 29 last year. Those statistics are impersonal. What are the
:16:32. > :16:33.consequences in human terms? How do they reflect themselves in the
:16:34. > :16:45.stories and the problems which lie behind them? People do not like to
:16:46. > :16:50.ask for money from charities. This man is the benevolent institution's
:16:51. > :16:54.welfare officer for North Wales. He has seen first hand what one bad
:16:55. > :17:02.winter and soaring feed and fuel prices can do to reverse a former's
:17:03. > :17:09.fortunes. If somebody has lost maybe 200 lambs, they would be losing
:17:10. > :17:13.money in sales. In terms of an ordinary person working in a factory
:17:14. > :17:20.or an office, ?15,000 off your salary equates to ?300 a week, would
:17:21. > :17:25.you are I be able to manage? That's how difficult it has been for
:17:26. > :17:28.farmers. Some people have come to the end of the road and there have
:17:29. > :17:34.been cases where people have taken their own lives because they have
:17:35. > :17:40.given up, haven't there? I have come across people who have been suicidal
:17:41. > :17:43.this year. Poverty in the countryside is not only to be found
:17:44. > :17:51.on the farms. In this part of the world, it further scarred the
:17:52. > :17:57.industrial landscape. This town has the unenviable title of being
:17:58. > :18:04.Wales's low wage title -- low-wage capital. It was once one of the most
:18:05. > :18:11.important slate producing towns in the world. It is not all doom and
:18:12. > :18:19.gloom. A considerable amount of public money has helped the people
:18:20. > :18:22.of this town help themselves. Roughly ?5 million has been spent
:18:23. > :18:27.here over the last five years, but is it enough to persuade young
:18:28. > :18:33.people that there is a future for them here in this strikingly
:18:34. > :18:35.beautiful but sometimes economic league -- economic league RF part of
:18:36. > :18:47.the countryside? They are coming in their hundreds,
:18:48. > :18:54.mountain bikers from all over Britain careering down pads once
:18:55. > :19:08.trodden by miners, a dangerous pastime, and one which is producing
:19:09. > :19:11.once again vital revenue. The regeneration project has capitalised
:19:12. > :19:14.on a national resource, in the hope of turning slate into a new source
:19:15. > :19:21.of revenue for a town that has paid a heavy price for roofing the world.
:19:22. > :19:26.We are developing schemes here, the community are developing schemes
:19:27. > :19:31.here, not someone from outside, ought plonking some sort of holiday
:19:32. > :19:36.park here. The profit is invested back into the community.
:19:37. > :19:41.Regeneration project have to have a life aeons the first grant if they
:19:42. > :19:45.are to be truly meaningful. Creating a dependency culture is of little
:19:46. > :19:52.use in securing the long-term future of our town which believes it is on
:19:53. > :19:58.the up after decades of decline. The local MP believes that part of the
:19:59. > :20:05.answer is to re-establish a quango style rural body with direct links
:20:06. > :20:13.and input into regen arising -- really energising the --
:20:14. > :20:19.reenergising the economy. A quango, but a very good one, if I am honest.
:20:20. > :20:21.They did a lot of good work, assisting people to diversify,
:20:22. > :20:26.assisting small businesses to take on new staff and being able to
:20:27. > :20:36.borrow within reason. I want something similar to be brought
:20:37. > :20:41.back. We need to revisit that. While school's out, the jury is as well on
:20:42. > :20:47.a whole new generation in the countryside. Pupils in schools like
:20:48. > :20:52.this one deserves to be treated what -- given what we were given when we
:20:53. > :20:55.were pupils here. Hope, and the tools to realise our dreams.
:20:56. > :20:58.That special report from David Williams. Yesterday the Scottish
:20:59. > :21:00.Government launched detailed plans for independence, outlining the
:21:01. > :21:03.focus of the referendum campaign which will concentrate on Scotland's
:21:04. > :21:10.future - on jobs, economic growth and security. The vote will take
:21:11. > :21:15.place next year, on September the 18th, but what will the outcome mean
:21:16. > :21:18.for devolution here in Wales? I'll be discussing that with my guests in
:21:19. > :21:28.a moment. But first here's Scotland's First Minister Alex
:21:29. > :21:33.Salmond setting out his stall. These things follow as night follows day,
:21:34. > :21:36.Scotland have indicated their willingness in this document that we
:21:37. > :21:41.will accept the financing of some of the massive obligations,
:21:42. > :21:44.liabilities, that have been built up by Alistair Darling and no George
:21:45. > :21:52.Osborne. That is predicated on the share of assets. One of these assets
:21:53. > :21:55.is the Bank of England. If Scotland vote yes and wants to keep the
:21:56. > :22:01.pound, Wales's first Minister would want to be consulted. If one part of
:22:02. > :22:04.the currency union decides to leave, it is a matter for them of
:22:05. > :22:10.course. But if an independent nation wants to join, that is a matter for
:22:11. > :22:18.the people of Wales, Northern Ireland and England. I would want to
:22:19. > :22:24.have a say in that. Good evening to my guests. First of all, we will get
:22:25. > :22:29.onto the pound shortly, but let's paint a picture, next September.
:22:30. > :22:37.Scotland says yes, what happens in Wales? If there is a yes vote, you
:22:38. > :22:39.will have two years of negotiating between the UK government or the
:22:40. > :22:44.government for the rest of the UK and Scotland. Between now and then,
:22:45. > :22:46.there will be a lot of heat and not much liked being generated because
:22:47. > :22:50.both sides will be naturally spinning their side of the argument.
:22:51. > :22:55.If Scotland goes its own way, I think for Wales, we did not need to
:22:56. > :23:02.be too nervous about this. After all, Ireland's left the United
:23:03. > :23:09.Kingdom in 1922, that did not create great issues. One thing for us is a
:23:10. > :23:13.concern, but Scotland will get much more weight and momentum to the
:23:14. > :23:17.devolution process in the case of Scotland and Wales, because Wales
:23:18. > :23:20.attended to trail behind Scotland. There is that concern that of
:23:21. > :23:26.Scotland goes its own way, that may cease. On the other hand, the people
:23:27. > :23:28.of Wales will be able to observe how successful or otherwise an
:23:29. > :23:33.independent Scotland is over the next five to ten years. That may
:23:34. > :23:37.impact the views of Welsh voters regarding further powers to Wales.
:23:38. > :23:43.The crucial relationship will be Wales and England. We do not know
:23:44. > :23:49.what it will be called. Will we be subsumed? It is a difficult position
:23:50. > :23:55.Wales would be in because it is a matter of getting your voice heard,
:23:56. > :24:00.including Scotland, the three Celtic parts of the UK have 10 million
:24:01. > :24:05.people out of a total of 64 million. England has 54 million.
:24:06. > :24:13.Overwhelmingly dominant already. Take Scotland out, you have the
:24:14. > :24:16.Celtic part of the United Kingdom. Suddenly England becomes 92% of the
:24:17. > :24:20.total. It is going to be very difficult. Particularly for Wales,
:24:21. > :24:24.although Wales is bigger than Northern Ireland, but Northern
:24:25. > :24:29.Ireland has a special status. Wales doesn't. Getting Wales's voice heard
:24:30. > :24:34.is quick to be three times harder than it is now and it is already
:24:35. > :24:42.very hard. The currency is a huge issue. Clearly the pound is the
:24:43. > :24:47.issue up in Edinburgh at the moment. Should Wales have a saying whether
:24:48. > :24:51.or not they can keep the pound? In theory, Wales should have a say. But
:24:52. > :24:57.nobody is going to listen very much to Wales. No disrespect on this
:24:58. > :25:01.issue, it is going to be very much London, Westminster Whitehall, Bank
:25:02. > :25:07.of England discussion. Wales will not count in that at all. I do not
:25:08. > :25:11.agree with that. The critical thing is whether Scotland would be allowed
:25:12. > :25:17.to join the currency union, the sterling zone, and cut corporation
:25:18. > :25:27.tax. That would be unprecedented. They would want to see the taxes
:25:28. > :25:35.that people pay no -- move it to Edinburgh and you will pay lower
:25:36. > :25:44.corporation tax. It would be quite proper for him to say hang on a
:25:45. > :25:51.minute. I do not know what the relationship is, but the issue is
:25:52. > :25:54.this. If our first Minister says we would object to Scotland staying in
:25:55. > :25:57.the sterling zone and cutting corporation tax, if they agree to
:25:58. > :26:03.keep corporation tax at the same level, OK, if we are allowed as well
:26:04. > :26:07.to cut corporation tax in Wales so we have the same advantage, in other
:26:08. > :26:11.words rewarding Scotland for breaking away from the United
:26:12. > :26:20.Kingdom and penalising Wales. Scenario B, what happens here to
:26:21. > :26:28.mark the SNP is finished, isn't it? I don't think so, I have spent a lot
:26:29. > :26:33.of time in Scotland. Certainly I think it depends on the outcome,
:26:34. > :26:39.quite how much the defeat would be for the SNP. Let's assume Scotland
:26:40. > :26:44.loses the referendum, the SNP does, there will be a move for more
:26:45. > :26:51.devolution to Scotland. Precisely how far is debatable. That is the
:26:52. > :26:56.irony, a no vote could lead to more powers for Scotland and Wales. I
:26:57. > :27:07.think it would lead to Alex Salmond's resignation. He will say,
:27:08. > :27:10.look, he will think that Scots will want to keep him, the neutrals will
:27:11. > :27:17.want to keep them as well as the SNP. You know him very well, this is
:27:18. > :27:23.a massive gamble, isn't it? It is and he is a gambler, but he will at
:27:24. > :27:26.the anti-by saying he will resign and I think he will resign if they
:27:27. > :27:32.lose the vote. Nicola Sturgeon will take over which is OK. The key thing
:27:33. > :27:36.is that in that guidebook, the White Paper they published yesterday,
:27:37. > :27:43.which is intended to paint a picture, let's get our hands on the
:27:44. > :27:46.revenue, cut corporation tax and increase public expenditure by
:27:47. > :27:55.getting our hands on the oil revenue, if Scotland votes no, are
:27:56. > :28:00.you going to say, he has painted a very positive picture, will the no
:28:01. > :28:03.campaign paint an equally positive picture of Scotland stays in the
:28:04. > :28:11.union by offering increased devolution? In a word, how will it
:28:12. > :28:17.go? It will be much closer than the polls indicate. I think now will
:28:18. > :28:22.win. But if yes wins, it will put Wales on a difficult position and
:28:23. > :28:28.the constitution of the rump UK into a very unstable situation. I hope it
:28:29. > :28:31.is a yes vote. I look forward to campaigning for a yes vote up there.
:28:32. > :28:35.Thank you very much. That's it for this week's programme.
:28:36. > :28:38.Huw Edwards will be back in two weeks' time with a special programme
:28:39. > :28:42.with Health Minister Mark Drakeford. And of course you can get in touch
:28:43. > :28:44.with any questions for the Health Minister, the issues discussed
:28:45. > :28:52.tonight, or indeed anything else. Email us at: And we are on Twitter.
:28:53. > :28:58.Thanks for watching. Diolch am wylio. Good night. Nos da.