:00:00. > :00:14.Tonight on the Wales Report... Is there a crisis brewing in the
:00:15. > :00:16.care sector? The Welsh government is urged to bring much tougher
:00:17. > :00:21.regulation of home care workers. We talk about income tax. And we ask
:00:22. > :00:23.what powers are needed to boost the Welsh economy?
:00:24. > :00:26.And the challenge of keeping Welsh politics in the headlines. But is
:00:27. > :00:28.more media coverage the same as more scrutiny? Stay with us for the Wales
:00:29. > :00:39.Report. Good evening, welcome to the Wales
:00:40. > :00:43.Report, where we take a look at the issues making an impact on lives in
:00:44. > :00:49.Wales. And we question some of those making the decisions.
:00:50. > :00:52.On tonight's programme, vulnerable adults who receive home care in
:00:53. > :00:55.Wales are potentially being put at risk by a lack of regulation and
:00:56. > :01:03.inconsistent standards of training. That is according to a leading Welsh
:01:04. > :01:06.charity. The vast majority, over 94% of professional care workers in
:01:07. > :01:08.Wales, are not registered with a regulating body. And they currently
:01:09. > :01:12.don't need any formal qualifications. Many in the sector,
:01:13. > :01:13.including qualifications. Many in the sector,
:01:14. > :01:34.the way, say change Every day, tens of thousands of
:01:35. > :01:41.vulnerable people across Wales relied on paid carers to come into
:01:42. > :01:47.their homes. They may be elderly or disabled and need assistance with
:01:48. > :01:50.vital tasks like taking medication, and sometimes that carer will be
:01:51. > :01:57.their only contact with the outside world. So how do we know whether our
:01:58. > :02:06.home carers at up to the task? The Ansett is we don't. Some workers do
:02:07. > :02:14.not need to have altercations and don't have to be registered with the
:02:15. > :02:19.regulator. The Wales Report has been contacted by a carer who is deeply
:02:20. > :02:23.worried about the situation. She wants to remain anonymous, but in
:02:24. > :02:28.e-mails still does that when she first darted as a carer she had very
:02:29. > :02:32.little training, despite having no previous experience. Training took
:02:33. > :02:38.place over eight weeks and was unpaid. Then there was a period of
:02:39. > :02:43.shadowing, going out with an experienced carer watching care put
:02:44. > :02:47.in practice, but only as good as the person you are shadowing all stop
:02:48. > :02:52.then you got your order and out you went. The lack of qualifications
:02:53. > :03:01.means most workers only in the minimum wage, and some only paid for
:03:02. > :03:05.the time the hard-working, not travelling between appointments, so
:03:06. > :03:11.moral is low, and there is a high turnover of staff. Sickness rates
:03:12. > :03:17.were very high, adding more pressure to the carers, as they had to take
:03:18. > :03:23.on the calls, staff leaving weekly, and a newly inducted member of staff
:03:24. > :03:31.lasted half a day in one company. According to a survey by the union
:03:32. > :03:33.Unison, that of -- who pay and conditions is having a shocking
:03:34. > :03:39.effect on the work horse and on care.
:03:40. > :03:44.The workers are undervalued, with no constituency with regard to
:03:45. > :03:52.training, or expectations when they are in the client's home, and
:03:53. > :03:57.unfortunately, all of the conditions could lead to a real crisis, a real
:03:58. > :04:04.high profile problem arising in the future. Currently, the only legal
:04:05. > :04:04.high profile problem arising in the requirement is that home carers must
:04:05. > :04:08.be checked to see if they have requirement is that home carers must
:04:09. > :04:13.criminal record, and must be given requirement is that home carers must
:04:14. > :04:15.basic induction. It is the responsibility of the key
:04:16. > :04:19.inspectorate responsibility of the key
:04:20. > :04:23.carry those out. But is that happening? The Wales Report has
:04:24. > :04:29.found that the inspectorate does not always ensure those checks have been
:04:30. > :04:33.done. Of the 50 home care reports we looked at on their websites, 28 did
:04:34. > :04:38.not look into staff records at all. That is because the inspectorate
:04:39. > :04:43.only check the fools that records every three years. The Czechs in
:04:44. > :04:48.between those do not have to be comprehensive. Charities working
:04:49. > :04:54.with honourable people are concerned that is not enough scrutiny. The
:04:55. > :05:00.system is not robust enough at the moment. The regulator has a job to
:05:01. > :05:03.do. We are very concerned that vulnerable people being provided
:05:04. > :05:09.care in their own homes might not be getting the level of protection
:05:10. > :05:12.deserve. That is why the UK home care Association would welcome
:05:13. > :05:18.statutory regulation for all care workers, leaving it would help
:05:19. > :05:23.monitor records. People must be sure the key worker coming into their
:05:24. > :05:29.home is trustworthy, has all the necessary checks and is absolutely
:05:30. > :05:33.skill for the intimate personal care B may be delivering. The Welsh
:05:34. > :05:36.Government has no recognised the current system is not fully
:05:37. > :05:43.protecting vulnerable people in their homes. It wants to bring in a
:05:44. > :05:47.new law that would change the inspection and regulation regimes
:05:48. > :05:51.here in Wales. Under the plans, a new body would be set up, called the
:05:52. > :05:56.National Institute for air and support, and that, the government
:05:57. > :06:02.argues, would improve all aspects of care. But there are criticisms that
:06:03. > :06:07.the proposals do not go far enough. Controversially, there is no plan to
:06:08. > :06:13.register all home care workers. The we would welcome that registration,
:06:14. > :06:19.although that would bring a high level of bureaucracy. But we do not
:06:20. > :06:23.believe vulnerable people should be put at risk and every risk possible
:06:24. > :06:26.should be mitigated with registration and universal
:06:27. > :06:32.registration would be the best way forward. And the carers themselves
:06:33. > :06:37.would like their role to be seen as more professional, recognising their
:06:38. > :06:41.vulnerable work. Each call presents a whole different set of needs, very
:06:42. > :06:46.diverse needs, for the most honourable client group, they rely
:06:47. > :06:52.on you totally and quite often you are the only person they may see.
:06:53. > :06:56.Many believe unless real changes are made to home care, and June, in
:06:57. > :07:03.future the potential for problems will be huge. -- and soon. If the
:07:04. > :07:08.situation continues, we will go from will be huge. -- and soon. If the
:07:09. > :07:13.one crisis to the next. The vulnerable people will not get the
:07:14. > :07:16.one crisis to the next. The services needed and deserved. There
:07:17. > :07:27.could be disasters ahead. Personal disasters. On the
:07:28. > :07:33.receiving this care. Helen Callaghan reporting. Joining
:07:34. > :07:38.me now is the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Labour's Gwenda
:07:39. > :07:44.Thomas. Thank you for coming in. My pleasure. One thing to say
:07:45. > :07:50.straightaway, lots of carers delivering a very good service.
:07:51. > :07:57.Yes. Before we discuss potential problems. Shouldn't every key worker
:07:58. > :08:04.bee registered? When you are talking about a workforce of over 70,000,
:08:05. > :08:09.and we have ended consultation on the new White Paper on registration
:08:10. > :08:14.and inspection, I am analysing those responses at the moment. And I have
:08:15. > :08:18.to make the point that, in Wales at the moment, we are registering more
:08:19. > :08:24.workers than we have ever done before. This is a step-by-step
:08:25. > :08:29.approach. The principle that anyone going into someone's home,
:08:30. > :08:33.especially vulnerable people, should be registered so we are safeguarding
:08:34. > :08:39.not just standard but the person cared for. That principle is surely
:08:40. > :08:43.one you would agree with? And it is the utmost priority for the Welsh
:08:44. > :08:48.Government that the safety and dignity of people receiving care is
:08:49. > :08:52.the most priority to us. When you talk about raises during the whole
:08:53. > :08:57.work force, the film made the point that, since last month, it is a
:08:58. > :09:03.requirement or home care managers to be registered, and when you look at
:09:04. > :09:07.other countries, Wales is taking vast steps towards registration, and
:09:08. > :09:12.it is fundamentally important for us to realise that the establishment of
:09:13. > :09:17.the Institute of care and support will be a huge step forward and the
:09:18. > :09:22.code of this principle will be developing training and building on
:09:23. > :09:27.the excellent work of the care Council, which has gone on in recent
:09:28. > :09:32.years, developing excellent training and creating career pathways. When
:09:33. > :09:38.you talk about the vulnerability of people cared for, often at home, and
:09:39. > :09:42.the carer is the only person they will see, they are dependent on that
:09:43. > :09:47.person. Again coming back to the points of confidence and trust in
:09:48. > :09:50.the system, how can they have full confidence they aren't being
:09:51. > :10:00.protected if we don't have the kind of registration that is being called
:10:01. > :10:06.for? We are considering a response, but this is a huge workforce. A
:10:07. > :10:07.workforce that sometimes moves quickly, and people working for
:10:08. > :10:13.three months then moving on. Is that quickly, and people working for
:10:14. > :10:20.part of the problem, such a big turnover that the bureaucracy puts
:10:21. > :10:20.part of the problem, such a big registration process? -- fool
:10:21. > :10:30.registration process? No not putting as of, but we have to look at this
:10:31. > :10:33.in a sensible way. We are registering more than many other
:10:34. > :10:41.countries, but I will take seriously all responses to the report, and
:10:42. > :10:48.underpinning this, I think it is the utmost importance of developing,
:10:49. > :10:51.valuing, because I do not think the social workers and social care
:10:52. > :10:56.workers are valued enough within our society, recessional lies that work
:10:57. > :11:00.force and develop the training and that is taking forward, and we have
:11:01. > :11:07.invested tens of millions over the last few years in training, and that
:11:08. > :11:12.extends right across the public, private and voluntary sector. And we
:11:13. > :11:16.will want to identify senior people to have a responsibility in law for
:11:17. > :11:23.the workforce that they are employing, and that they do employ a
:11:24. > :11:29.proportion of that work force who are qualified to our required level.
:11:30. > :11:35.That brings me to the final point about qualification, and perceptions
:11:36. > :11:37.of, I suppose, education of the workforce, because so many are
:11:38. > :11:42.earning very little money, minimum wage, and there are clearly problems
:11:43. > :11:49.of commitment in the sense people feel they have to move on, not happy
:11:50. > :11:52.with the conditions they have, and lots not having qualifications. A
:11:53. > :11:59.matter of bringing up standards in lots of areas? Indeed, and we are
:12:00. > :12:02.well on the way to do that, and we have to professionalise the
:12:03. > :12:08.workforce in order to value it and improve services and the quality of
:12:09. > :12:14.provision. Bank you for coming in. -- thank you.
:12:15. > :12:17.Back in November, Prime Minister David Cameron and his Deputy Nick
:12:18. > :12:20.Clegg came to Cardiff to unveil their proposals for new financial
:12:21. > :12:24.powers for the Welsh Government. They included powers to set income
:12:25. > :12:27.tax, if the people of Wales approved them in a referendum. The secretary
:12:28. > :12:34.of Wales, David Jones, has welcomed the move calling for the ballot to
:12:35. > :12:40.be held sooner rather than later. He said it will make the Welsh
:12:41. > :12:46.Government more accountable. Income tax powers, and the more favourable
:12:47. > :12:51.income tax rate in Wales, will be good for the Welsh economy.
:12:52. > :12:55.First Minister Carwyn Jones has described the new powers on offer.
:12:56. > :12:58.As pretty useless. This is what he had to say to the Welsh Affairs
:12:59. > :13:03.Select Committee on Monday. I am somebody who I suspected regarded as
:13:04. > :13:08.fairly strong with regard to the devolution of powers, but on this
:13:09. > :13:12.issue, I cannot make a case for Wales that would demonstrate
:13:13. > :13:20.evolution of this model of income tax varying powers, without there
:13:21. > :13:23.being reform of the funding system, would be something
:13:24. > :13:24.being reform of the funding system, net benefit. Joining
:13:25. > :13:26.being reform of the funding system, economist and Welsh Government
:13:27. > :13:33.advisor Gerald Holtham. Thank you for coming in. Let us talk
:13:34. > :13:40.advisor Gerald Holtham. Thank you are the useless currently? Very
:13:41. > :13:46.difficult to use. -- to vary them. In the present-day, politicians
:13:47. > :13:52.binding from tax difficult. Look at the Scots, never using the powers
:13:53. > :13:57.they have add. And when have we last had an increase in income tax? When
:13:58. > :14:01.Gordon Brown removed the 10p, tremendous furore. It is a difficult
:14:02. > :14:05.power to use at the best of times. And if you want the government to
:14:06. > :14:09.use it, both up and down, you need as much like stability. The
:14:10. > :14:16.arrangement being proposed here is very rigid, and that will ensure it
:14:17. > :14:23.is never used. When we talk about a lockstep system, what is meant by
:14:24. > :14:30.that? Normally there are three bans for income tax. Rahm 10p up to
:14:31. > :14:35.30,000, in 40p up to 150000 and then above that you pay ?45. A government
:14:36. > :14:39.can normally change the marginal rate for each of those bands
:14:40. > :14:45.separately. The way the Welsh power is being devolved is like this. 10p
:14:46. > :14:50.is going to the Welsh Government and the rest is going to the UK
:14:51. > :14:58.government. If the Welsh Government changes its rate, everybody's rate
:14:59. > :15:06.changes. So the person who is paying 45p then 10p is going to Wells. If
:15:07. > :15:13.the Welsh Government changes to 8% then everybody's marginal tax rate
:15:14. > :15:17.goes down. What is the logic? Because the argument that has been
:15:18. > :15:22.made with as much charity I can assemble, is complete nonsense. They
:15:23. > :15:25.want to preserve the progress of the system, how much it redistributed
:15:26. > :15:31.between income groups, for the centre. Westminster. The reason that
:15:32. > :15:36.does not make sense is that this system does not do that. Are likely
:15:37. > :15:43.to ever see a referendum on these particular proposals? I think it is
:15:44. > :15:46.quite unlikely as things stand. It is very easy to lose this
:15:47. > :15:51.referendum. If you say to people that they need power to change taxes
:15:52. > :15:55.than the initial reaction will be, "do I want to do that?" Hodges and
:15:56. > :16:00.are not any more popular in Wales than anywhere else. We never know
:16:01. > :16:04.whether a referendum will be on the issue or whether we like the
:16:05. > :16:08.politicians. They are taking a big risk. And for what? For a power that
:16:09. > :16:12.there are unlikely to be able to use. And Observer who would maybe
:16:13. > :16:16.take on board what you were saying would also come back and say that it
:16:17. > :16:17.is very odd for politicians, or stakeholders involved in this
:16:18. > :16:21.process, not to want more stakeholders involved in this
:16:22. > :16:24.even of the powers are not stakeholders involved in this
:16:25. > :16:27.would like them, or not set out in the way they would like. Actually,
:16:28. > :16:30.would like them, or not set out in the natural thing for you to want
:16:31. > :16:34.would be to have more powers in order to realise your own policies.
:16:35. > :16:35.Is that not right? I think if you would say to Welsh politicians that
:16:36. > :16:41.they could have these powers then they would not refuse them. They
:16:42. > :16:45.might never use them but at least they would be on the shelf, as it
:16:46. > :16:50.were. But you are asking them to fight a referendum for them. I think
:16:51. > :16:53.that is the point. It is not just theoretical. Somebody has to go and
:16:54. > :16:58.knock on the door and ask people to vote. One of the problems in Wales
:16:59. > :17:01.is that we are having referendum is not on big issues of principle but
:17:02. > :17:07.on fairly technical matters. Nobody's tax is going up as a result
:17:08. > :17:10.of the referendum but it is being organised in a different way,
:17:11. > :17:15.different people can live it. You have to explain lockstep. You will
:17:16. > :17:19.probably get a turnout of 20%, as we did for the last referendum, which
:17:20. > :17:25.was about whether you have powers to legislate on 30 do is use with 14
:17:26. > :17:30.exemptions. -- 32 issues. It is a bad and able to get into that we
:17:31. > :17:32.have these very detailed referendum instead of the question of whether
:17:33. > :17:38.we want a parliament with powers. We are doing these very detailed things
:17:39. > :17:42.and I think the politicians are getting a bit punch-drunk. All of
:17:43. > :17:47.this, in the wider context of how you improve the wider economy -- the
:17:48. > :17:55.Welsh economy. How do you boost the Welsh economy? 7.1% unemployment in
:17:56. > :17:59.the UK, 7.2 in Wales. The picture has been improving in many parts of
:18:00. > :18:02.the country. Thinking in terms of what Wales needs, not just tax
:18:03. > :18:09.powers but other economic powers, how would you explain the picture?
:18:10. > :18:14.There is no quick fix, really. There are two things that the Welsh
:18:15. > :18:19.Government needs to focus on. The first is education and training. The
:18:20. > :18:23.great Irish success, before their disaster in 2007, was really based
:18:24. > :18:27.on a huge investment in education, much higher proportion of Irish kids
:18:28. > :18:35.get to tertiary kids than the UK, certainly than Wales. -- treachery
:18:36. > :18:38.education. Our standards are slipping behind the UK and the best
:18:39. > :18:43.places in Europe. We have turned that around. If you're going to get
:18:44. > :18:45.technical businesses here, large businesses wanting to establish,
:18:46. > :18:49.they want a trained workforce. That is the first thing we have to do.
:18:50. > :18:56.That is a long job, not a six-month effort. It is a 60 year effort. The
:18:57. > :18:59.second thing is infrastructure. If we wanted to be able to move people
:19:00. > :19:03.and goods around and our infrastructure is not great, we do
:19:04. > :19:08.not have a very late topography, all those mountains. We have to improve
:19:09. > :19:15.that. -- a very friendly topography. There is a programme needed of
:19:16. > :19:19.investment to put the country in a better position. Is the Welsh
:19:20. > :19:23.Government engaged in putting together a programme to answer those
:19:24. > :19:25.things? It has started to put together an infrastructure plan,
:19:26. > :19:30.which if that were to come to fruition would be a step forward.
:19:31. > :19:32.There is certainly a big focus on education now. I do
:19:33. > :19:34.There is certainly a big focus on they're going to succeed in turning
:19:35. > :19:38.the corner but these people are talking about it.
:19:39. > :19:40.the corner but these people are very much for coming in.
:19:41. > :19:42.the corner but these people are Do Welsh politicians get the
:19:43. > :19:45.scrutiny they, and the voters, deserve? The Assembly's Presiding
:19:46. > :19:48.Officer, Rosemary Butler, believes the decline of the newspaper
:19:49. > :19:51.industry in Wales and the dominance of London- based media has led to
:19:52. > :19:59.fewer people being engaged in Welsh political life. And she's not alone
:20:00. > :20:01.in that view. But with fewer resources in many news
:20:02. > :20:04.organisations, how realistic is it to demand more coverage? Professor
:20:05. > :20:07.Richard Sambrook of Cardiff University School of Journalism, a
:20:08. > :20:09.former head of BBC Global News, presents his own report on the
:20:10. > :20:31.prospects. Its wheels talking about Wales
:20:32. > :20:35.enough? The lack of media coverage and scrutiny of the Welsh Government
:20:36. > :20:38.is a talk topic that has been talked about -- a topic that has been
:20:39. > :20:42.talked about many times, usually in the same newspapers and TV
:20:43. > :20:48.programmes stop because the coverage of the UK government. How many times
:20:49. > :20:54.have you seen Carwyn Jones on the pages of those same newspapers? Here
:20:55. > :20:58.at Cardiff University, we try to teach student journalists the
:20:59. > :21:01.importance of default government and holding politicians to account but
:21:02. > :21:10.there are not many good examples for them to learn from. Welsh media is
:21:11. > :21:16.back in the spotlight, thanks to Rosemary Butler. Gone will be the
:21:17. > :21:23.days of confusing Michael Gove's policies with Hugh Lewis, she wants
:21:24. > :21:27.the people of Wales to have plenty of sources of news about Wales to
:21:28. > :21:31.choose from. So how exactly are they proposing to do this? One suggestion
:21:32. > :21:36.is a journalism hub in the Senedd, working with hyper local media and
:21:37. > :21:39.digital organisations to provide content for new digital channels.
:21:40. > :21:44.Others include better communication facilities at The Senedd, making the
:21:45. > :21:48.data more accessible and ensuring that people are treating enough and
:21:49. > :21:52.helping to train them journalists of the future in the way The Senedd
:21:53. > :21:56.works. All very good but there is a problem here. Pushing information
:21:57. > :21:59.out is just PR. It is not the same as asking the awkward questions and
:22:00. > :22:03.holding politicians to account. That in the new journalism hub in the
:22:04. > :22:06.Senedd, will the journals of the future be encouraged to challenge
:22:07. > :22:12.what they see and hear will be simply become mouthpieces? These
:22:13. > :22:15.plans are just a starting point and will be developed. I cannot help
:22:16. > :22:19.thinking they're coming from wrong direction. It should be ours, the
:22:20. > :22:21.public, whose lives are affected by the decisions taken in the Assembly,
:22:22. > :22:24.public, whose lives are affected by it is ours who should be pushing for
:22:25. > :22:29.more hard-nosed, independent reporting. We care about schools,
:22:30. > :22:29.more hard-nosed, independent communities, hospitals. It
:22:30. > :22:33.more hard-nosed, independent we started to care about how
:22:34. > :22:34.more hard-nosed, independent being made. It
:22:35. > :22:37.more hard-nosed, independent looking for high-quality
:22:38. > :22:39.more hard-nosed, independent decision-makers coming from many
:22:40. > :22:43.different sources. In many ways, we get the media we deserve. But as the
:22:44. > :22:47.Welsh Government gets greater powers, so should be made more
:22:48. > :22:50.accountable. It is time to get wheels on the front page.
:22:51. > :22:56.Joining me now from our Assembly newsroom is the Deputy Presiding
:22:57. > :23:01.Officer, Conservative David Melding. Thank you for joining us. I am going
:23:02. > :23:04.to pick up on the point that he was making there. Is he right to say
:23:05. > :23:10.that the public gets the media it deserves? I think we all have a part
:23:11. > :23:17.to play in the political process. Those that analyse it, those that
:23:18. > :23:19.have to engage with the public. I suppose public engagement itself. We
:23:20. > :23:26.want to encourage people to tell us what they think and ensure that they
:23:27. > :23:28.can participate openly. Distil the democratic deficit that we have in
:23:29. > :23:32.the modern age, with moderately medications, and very fast legs were
:23:33. > :23:36.people cannot quite spend the time they would have in the past in
:23:37. > :23:43.listening to long broadcasts, I think this is all part of the next
:23:44. > :23:48.we need. Do you think the median Wales, broadcast and oppressed, is
:23:49. > :23:52.at fault? I think there are lots of things that we need to do to catch
:23:53. > :23:56.up with the technology we have had in communications. The fact that we
:23:57. > :24:00.are enjoying, or going through, a period that is like the late 19th
:24:01. > :24:08.century, when Mars newspapers started. That -- when newspapers
:24:09. > :24:11.started. That changed the way politics was done and we moved to
:24:12. > :24:18.universal suffrage and the participation in a formal way. Now
:24:19. > :24:21.we are seeing those old patter and documentation breakdown and new ones
:24:22. > :24:24.opening up. Engaging the public is much more difficult now that there
:24:25. > :24:28.are many other things that people want to get involved with. Is your
:24:29. > :24:31.colleagues right in saying that there is a democratic deficit when
:24:32. > :24:35.it comes to media scrutiny and that that is partly, as she puts it, the
:24:36. > :24:40.media's fault for not taking an interest in what you are doing in
:24:41. > :24:46.Cardiff? I think what we have seen is that wherever is the control in
:24:47. > :24:50.Wales, decisions are made, then we are seeing excellent quality
:24:51. > :24:54.broadcasting and writing. But there is a difficulty, I think, when the
:24:55. > :24:59.number of journalists is reduced. We do not so specialist political
:25:00. > :25:04.journalists here in the. I have to say the BBC has made some decisions
:25:05. > :25:08.in the last year but political reporting and the extent of news
:25:09. > :25:13.coverage in Wales. We still have high quality but there is a real
:25:14. > :25:18.deficit in the UK level. A lot of what we do is not fully reflected in
:25:19. > :25:23.the output, particularly, I think, with the newspapers. But the
:25:24. > :25:27.broadcasters could improve also. A lot of progress has been made,
:25:28. > :25:28.particularly with the BBC. We go back to that question, one
:25:29. > :25:34.politician said at the other day devolved administrations, why would
:25:35. > :25:38.someone living in York, for example, devolved administrations, why would
:25:39. > :25:40.be interested in what is devolved administrations, why would
:25:41. > :25:44.in Cardiff? I think it is relevant when we are making a decision in
:25:45. > :25:50.Cardiff that could set a new precedent. You had this with organ
:25:51. > :25:56.donation, for instance. There was a shift in policy. It was seen to be
:25:57. > :26:00.very medical in the UK. -- very radical. That clearly could impact
:26:01. > :26:04.people's lives in England and Scotland, if their governments
:26:05. > :26:10.followed suit. I think it is that sort of test. Do we get top coverage
:26:11. > :26:16.then? That is kind of the measure that we need to apply to stop -- do
:26:17. > :26:19.we get proper coverage then? We have other examples of debates we have
:26:20. > :26:23.lit. Although we have had a fair coverage, perhaps not always the
:26:24. > :26:26.level we have deserved. A little more than scrutiny. Wouldn't be fair
:26:27. > :26:31.to say that in order that openness to be there, for the scrutiny to be
:26:32. > :26:34.efficient, ministers also have to be available and willing to be
:26:35. > :26:37.questioned. There are instances, certainly that I know of in Welsh
:26:38. > :26:45.Government, where ministers maybe are not as available as they might
:26:46. > :26:48.be. What would you say about that? I put my dignity Presiding Officer's
:26:49. > :26:53.hat on and say that we sometimes have to be very firm with the stars
:26:54. > :26:58.about Wendy -- with ministers about when and where they make statements
:26:59. > :27:02.and we want them to be available to be questioned in the Assembly. Their
:27:03. > :27:10.lives are demanding. They cannot say yes to every request but there is an
:27:11. > :27:17.issue in being available to the main broadcasters and news outlets. There
:27:18. > :27:21.should be effective fumigation. That is an important heart of scrutiny.
:27:22. > :27:24.How many people can watch first Minister 's questions? But how many
:27:25. > :27:28.people will listen to a news bulletin on the BBC in the morning?
:27:29. > :27:33.I think ministers will be aware of that. Finally, the importance of
:27:34. > :27:37.this, we are moving into a period were clearly election is on the
:27:38. > :27:41.horizon, we are talking about important things like tax varying
:27:42. > :27:44.powers, for example. That process of engagement by voters is even more
:27:45. > :27:52.important than it has been before. It certainly is. I think the
:27:53. > :27:56.effective devolution becomes and the greater range of subjects that are
:27:57. > :28:00.devolved, there is a clear logic in doing as much locally and nationally
:28:01. > :28:05.in Wales, Scotland and England at some point as possible. It is very
:28:06. > :28:09.important if we are going to see big decisions being taken on taxation
:28:10. > :28:13.and perhaps to model the Welsh economy, to make it more attractive
:28:14. > :28:16.than, say, the south east of England, if we want to attract
:28:17. > :28:20.people into Wales that currently are in an overcrowded economic region
:28:21. > :28:24.like London on the south east, we have to engage with people to tell
:28:25. > :28:26.them why it is necessary, perhaps, to make some of the decisions we
:28:27. > :28:28.need to be making that initially to make some of the decisions we
:28:29. > :28:30.might surprise people, if looking at really interesting
:28:31. > :28:33.innovative policy options. looking at really interesting
:28:34. > :28:33.thank you for joining us. My pleasure.
:28:34. > :28:37.That's it for this week's programme. pleasure.
:28:38. > :28:40.We'll be back next Wednesday. In the meantime, you can get in touch with
:28:41. > :28:42.us about the issues discussed tonight, or indeed anything else.
:28:43. > :28:45.Email us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk and we are on Twitter. Thanks for
:28:46. > :28:52.watching. Good night. Nos da.