:00:00. > :00:11.Tonight a special programme as The Wales Report is given exclusive
:00:12. > :00:15.access to Operation Pallial. The investigation into allegations of
:00:16. > :00:20.historic child abuse in North Wales care homes. The man in charge tells
:00:21. > :00:25.us it is far from over. I am confident there will be further
:00:26. > :00:31.charges and further arrest, we will pursue the truth and ensure through
:00:32. > :00:34.the evidence we collect, with put the CPS in the best position to make
:00:35. > :00:45.proper judgment. Stay with us for The Wales Report.
:00:46. > :00:50.Good evening and welcome to a special programme. The Wales Report
:00:51. > :00:54.has been given exclusive behind the scenes access to a major
:00:55. > :00:58.investigation into allegations of historic child abuse, in care homes
:00:59. > :01:02.in North Wales. Operation Pallial is led by the
:01:03. > :01:06.National Crime Agency, and based over the border at its northern
:01:07. > :01:11.headquarters in Warrington. It was set up in November 2012, amid
:01:12. > :01:14.concerns that previous investigations had not been robust
:01:15. > :01:18.or thorough enough. There were concerns too that the voices of
:01:19. > :01:23.those coming forward to report allegations of abuse in the care
:01:24. > :01:26.system had not been heard. The investigation had already
:01:27. > :01:32.resulted in 19 people being arrested, with more expected. 37
:01:33. > :01:39.potential suspects have so far been identified. It is thought at least
:01:40. > :01:43.12 suspects have died. David Williams who has covered the event
:01:44. > :01:47.as they have unfolded over the past 25 years has been behind the scenes
:01:48. > :01:59.with the police to discover the true extent of the allegations.
:02:00. > :02:05.We will start with an investigation update. I am content we are making
:02:06. > :02:11.steady progress in Operation Pallial, we are dealing with 255
:02:12. > :02:15.victims. In terms of suspect inquiry, again, making steady
:02:16. > :02:21.progress, 37 people have been raised to suspect status and from that
:02:22. > :02:25.figure we have made 19 arrests. Ian Mulcahey the man in charge of
:02:26. > :02:29.Operation Pallial, an investigation into historic child abuse in North
:02:30. > :02:35.Wales lists the latest shocking statistics to emerge from an inquiry
:02:36. > :02:38.into what is nothing less than a human tragedy.
:02:39. > :02:46.Offences were committed between the time span of 1953 to 1995. The age
:02:47. > :02:50.range was between 6 and 19. The majority of the victims were boysers
:02:51. > :02:53.although there are a number of girls.
:02:54. > :02:58.-- boys. 37 potential suspects have been
:02:59. > :03:02.identified. Of the 255 people who have come
:03:03. > :03:08.forward, since the investigation was launched, 14 months ago, a great
:03:09. > :03:14.many are new complainant, outlining a catalogue of serious crime and
:03:15. > :03:18.abuse, allegedly committed decades ago, in Local Authority and
:03:19. > :03:22.privately run children's homes in North Wales.
:03:23. > :03:27.28 care homes have been named by complainants.
:03:28. > :03:34.In terms of named... The rolical is staggering. 28 homes are named. --
:03:35. > :03:38.roll call These were places where young vulnerable children were
:03:39. > :03:42.supposed to have been cared for. Instead they are now at the centre
:03:43. > :03:46.of an inquiry into sexual and physical abuse, and inquiry which
:03:47. > :03:54.has taken on a life of its own. And for the time being at least, one
:03:55. > :04:01.in which there is no end in sight. We are dealing with alleged
:04:02. > :04:07.offenders who are responsingable... 19 people have been arrested, one
:04:08. > :04:11.man has been charged, and more arrests and charges against others
:04:12. > :04:15.are expected. I am confident there will be further
:04:16. > :04:19.charges and further arrests. We will pursue the truth, and we will ensure
:04:20. > :04:22.through the evidence we collect, we put the CPS in the best position
:04:23. > :04:27.possible, to make the proper judgments.
:04:28. > :04:32.Over the years in reporting the growing number of complaints of
:04:33. > :04:36.abuse in children's homes in North Wales, I have ended up outside this
:04:37. > :04:40.building. The headquarters of the North Wales
:04:41. > :04:45.Police in Colwyn Bay. It has to be said they weren't happy memories.
:04:46. > :04:50.At the time, rightly or wrongly, there was a perception that the
:04:51. > :04:55.police were hostile and disbelieving of claimants abuse claims.
:04:56. > :05:00.All that, it is said, has changed and frankly it is an attitude that
:05:01. > :05:05.had to. Attempts to try and establish the
:05:06. > :05:10.whole truth have to date all failed. Time and again, over the last 30
:05:11. > :05:15.year, I have heard the same depressing stories from some of
:05:16. > :05:19.those alleging abuse. Nay simply were not listened to, or believed.
:05:20. > :05:25.-- they. At least 13 young people have killed
:05:26. > :05:30.themselves. The damning findings of the first real attempt at an
:05:31. > :05:33.inquiry, the Jillings Report, was suppressed.
:05:34. > :05:41.What should have been the definitive public inquiry, the Waterhouse
:05:42. > :05:47.Tribunal, is itself now subject to another inquiry, the review. In the
:05:48. > :05:51.'80s there were police inquiries, and eight people were eventually
:05:52. > :05:57.convicted of child abuse. But young people continue to tell me that they
:05:58. > :05:59.had no confidence in the north Wale police.
:06:00. > :06:03.Fearful of coming forward when they were children, many waited until
:06:04. > :06:09.they were adults before telling their stories.
:06:10. > :06:18.But they still remember vividly what happened to them Keith Gregory says
:06:19. > :06:22.that he was sexually, and physically abused in homes in England and in
:06:23. > :06:27.Wales. He had a chilling account of his
:06:28. > :06:30.first attempt as a teenager, at the then Bryn Estyn children's home in
:06:31. > :06:36.Wrexham, to bring allegations of abuse to the attention of staff, and
:06:37. > :06:41.police, during a case conference at the home.
:06:42. > :06:46.Before I went into the meeting, I marched into the meeting, sort of
:06:47. > :06:51.thing, there was the police officer standing there, with his arm round
:06:52. > :06:55.one of the people I was accusing, smiling, laughing, joking. Then he
:06:56. > :07:01.said to me I believe you have something to tell me.
:07:02. > :07:05.I couldn't, you know. So did you find that the police weren't
:07:06. > :07:11.prepared to listen do you, or were they hostile or what? Nobody would
:07:12. > :07:14.listen. Nobody wanted to know. We were naughty boys, from when you
:07:15. > :07:18.come out, when I was there, when I come out, for years it has been
:07:19. > :07:23.hushed up. The current chief constable of north
:07:24. > :07:27.Wale police has, from the outset, been at pains to demonstrate his
:07:28. > :07:31.force's full cooperation with the current investigation.
:07:32. > :07:35.-- North Wales. It was Mark Polin who wanted it conducted by an
:07:36. > :07:41.outside force. Why? Because at the time, some
:07:42. > :07:46.victims were indicating that they ad at that point didn't have the
:07:47. > :07:51.confident in the force to carry out a reinvestigation to allegations
:07:52. > :07:54.made some time ago. There was a perception that North Wales Police
:07:55. > :07:58.during this period weren't listening, and sometimes worse, were
:07:59. > :08:02.demonstrating hostility towards those who were coming forward, or
:08:03. > :08:09.who wanted to come forward, what do you say to that? First of all, I
:08:10. > :08:13.wasn't here. Let us be clear, there are few staff in this organisation
:08:14. > :08:15.now, who were here at the time of the investigations, so the
:08:16. > :08:21.organisation has moved on in terms of staff and what it does. It is not
:08:22. > :08:25.therefore for me to comment on prior investigation, because I wasn't
:08:26. > :08:29.party to them, this was about let us make sure we get it right this time,
:08:30. > :08:33.if we have not got it right before, and encourage victims to forward to
:08:34. > :08:37.put everything on the table, as far as we can possibly could, and to
:08:38. > :08:41.ensure there was a thorough comprehensive investigation that was
:08:42. > :08:46.independent and transparent. This is the nerve centre of
:08:47. > :08:52.Operation Pallial, based here at the northern hub of the National Crime
:08:53. > :08:57.Agency, in Warrington, in Cheshire. Geographically located in England,
:08:58. > :09:00.it is at the same time at arms-length from but in close touch
:09:01. > :09:04.with the north Wales police, whose force area is at the epicentre of
:09:05. > :09:08.this inquiry into historic child abuse.
:09:09. > :09:12.We have been given unparalleled access to see for ourselves some of
:09:13. > :09:17.the inner workings of this operation.
:09:18. > :09:26.For the first time since the inquiry was set up in November 2012, the
:09:27. > :09:32.National Crime Agency or NCA, Britain's equivalent of America's
:09:33. > :09:36.FB. It has allowed cameras in to get a snapshot of the complex and
:09:37. > :09:43.delicate work that goes on behind the scene at one of the biggest
:09:44. > :09:47.police inquiries of its kind. In that Pantheon of crimes that you
:09:48. > :09:51.deal with, where does this one it is? It is difficult compare
:09:52. > :09:58.different types of crime so with deal with organise crime, to drug,
:09:59. > :10:01.gun, people trafficking and through child exploitation, it is a broad
:10:02. > :10:04.range, what I would say is be try and work through the detail of that
:10:05. > :10:09.to identify where the real opportunities are to cut crime and
:10:10. > :10:12.keep the public safe, our priority is pursuing criminals. Is That is
:10:13. > :10:18.what you are doing in this operation? Absolutely.
:10:19. > :10:24.Day after day, week after week, month after month, the Pallial team
:10:25. > :10:28.of 26 officers have been following up the stories and allegations from
:10:29. > :10:33.men and women, but mainly men, who have contacted them to outline the
:10:34. > :10:40.abuse they say they suffered while in care in North Wales.
:10:41. > :10:45.Elaine Coult iris the deputy officer in -- Elaine Coulter is the deputy
:10:46. > :10:49.officer in charge of the Pallial operation. We have had an overview
:10:50. > :10:52.of what it is about but this is where it takes place isn't it. Talk
:10:53. > :10:57.us through the kind of processes that go on here. This is the
:10:58. > :11:04.incident room for Operation Pallial. People will contact us by a number
:11:05. > :11:11.of source, whether by telephone, e-mail or other agency, we have an
:11:12. > :11:14.0800 number. A lot of people have not previously reported their
:11:15. > :11:18.allegations to the police. Some had and sometimes it has been
:11:19. > :11:22.investigated so we have to research all that first, this is not the
:11:23. > :11:27.first investigation into the care home abuse, so we have to research
:11:28. > :11:31.the archive material, which is about 260 boxes, held in North Wales, so
:11:32. > :11:35.there is a lot of research to do, so you might get someone who thinks I
:11:36. > :11:42.have give my account to the police, why hasn't that person been arrests?
:11:43. > :11:47.We have to make sure the research round, is that person still alive,
:11:48. > :11:51.how can we trace them? Because some have died? Yes.
:11:52. > :11:56.The majority of those who have come forward, in response to the latest
:11:57. > :12:01.appeal for information are telling their stories, often deeply
:12:02. > :12:06.disturbing story, of abuse, for the first time. Not even members of
:12:07. > :12:10.their own family have heard what officers of Operation Pallial are
:12:11. > :12:16.now being told. It takes a lot for a person to come
:12:17. > :12:20.forward and divulge, the worst time of their life when they should have
:12:21. > :12:26.been a place in care. Do they tell you why they have taken so long to
:12:27. > :12:29.come forward? They do, although there have been previous
:12:30. > :12:33.allegations, they have been asked in the '90s and they might have said
:12:34. > :12:38.no, they might have been in that good place in their life. They
:12:39. > :12:42.haven't wanted to talk about it. As they lives have gone on they have
:12:43. > :12:47.wanted to talk about it. People are getting older and they need to tell
:12:48. > :12:54.their story, I have had people come to me and I ask me how to get in
:12:55. > :12:57.touch with Pallial. I spoke to the Children's Commissioner and they put
:12:58. > :13:02.them forward. There is one old chap I talked to, he just wants to tell
:13:03. > :13:08.his story before he die, he doesn't want anything, he is well-off, all
:13:09. > :13:15.right. He needs to say what happened to
:13:16. > :13:20.To you get any feel, any idea, of how many of those 250 have in any
:13:21. > :13:27.way been wasting your time, or have they not? I don't think anybody has.
:13:28. > :13:31.That is a lot of people. Disturbing though they are, the
:13:32. > :13:37.allegations do not mean the accused are automatically guilty. Neither do
:13:38. > :13:43.the numbers necessarily mean there is an increased chance of
:13:44. > :13:47.conviction. The job of the officers is to collect the evidence. The
:13:48. > :13:53.police and law enforcement let evidence, presented to persecute
:13:54. > :13:57.us, the CPS, they make an objective judgement based on clear guidelines
:13:58. > :14:01.about who should go into a court. The courts decide who is guilty or
:14:02. > :14:06.not guilty. This is the cord and 18 team,
:14:07. > :14:14.otherwise known as the Gold group, which meets regularly at the
:14:15. > :14:22.Warrington offices to discuss the progress of the enquiry. Every
:14:23. > :14:27.agency either directly or indirectly linked is represented. The NCA is
:14:28. > :14:30.represented by their boss, director-general Keith Bristow.
:14:31. > :14:35.There is also a representative of the North Wales police. Social
:14:36. > :14:40.services in North Wales have a joint coordinator. The Crown Prosecution
:14:41. > :14:45.Service, CPS, is represented by the chief prosecutor for Wales. Also is
:14:46. > :14:50.the Children's Commissioner for Wales.
:14:51. > :14:53.Because of the sensitive nature of what they are discussing we have
:14:54. > :14:59.been asked to leave the room but I have had a glimpse of the kind of
:15:00. > :15:03.joined up thinking that goes on. And the attempt to provide necessary
:15:04. > :15:08.support for those who have been willing to come forward and provide
:15:09. > :15:17.harrowing accounts of the abuse they suffered. You can't help but think
:15:18. > :15:21.why wasn't all this done years ago? Perhaps there was a lack of
:15:22. > :15:27.understanding of the impact, and the level of abuse that had occurred. We
:15:28. > :15:31.are much better these days at recognising what we need to do to
:15:32. > :15:39.ensure that we support people where they have suffered abuse, and the
:15:40. > :15:43.impact on their lives, that has been one of the things that has been most
:15:44. > :15:49.hard-hitting for us, is seeing the tragic impact on some peoples lives
:15:50. > :15:52.of this, and some people will never recover and we will have two be
:15:53. > :15:56.there to ensure they have that support for as long as they need it.
:15:57. > :16:02.There is little doubt the level of support for those coming forward has
:16:03. > :16:08.improved dramatically, compared with what wasn't done 20 or 30 years ago.
:16:09. > :16:14.We have discovered a new problem, the counselling sessions offered by
:16:15. > :16:18.Operation Pallial are running into difficulties because those coming
:16:19. > :16:22.forward are being instructed, for legal reasons, not to verbally
:16:23. > :16:28.identify their alleged abusers to their councillors. As a result, some
:16:29. > :16:31.witnesses feel the counselling sessions are pointless, and have
:16:32. > :16:36.decided to withdraw from those sessions. This threatens to leave
:16:37. > :16:41.them, as witnesses to the enquiry, for trouble again.
:16:42. > :16:47.It is good that you managed to chat to somebody who is not part of your
:16:48. > :16:52.family, but we are not allowed to speak about what has happened and we
:16:53. > :16:56.are not allowed to mentioned names of the people who abused us, for
:16:57. > :17:02.legal reasons. Does that inhibit you? It does, it stops you. To go
:17:03. > :17:09.forward you have got to go backwards, get your story out, write
:17:10. > :17:16.three to present day. Every time you mention something they say sorry, we
:17:17. > :17:22.cannot listen to that part. I think that is holding us back a lot.
:17:23. > :17:28.Once again, survivors of abuse have difficulty in unburdening themselves
:17:29. > :17:33.of their past. Hopefully this is a temporary blip, and one that can be
:17:34. > :17:37.rectified. In terms of the investigation, the emphasis now is
:17:38. > :17:42.on the credibility of the allegations, rather than the
:17:43. > :17:45.perceived weakness of the witnesses. And in general terms the man in
:17:46. > :17:50.charge of Britain's crime-fighters is optimistic we are witnessing a
:17:51. > :17:57.change in society's attitude to child abuse.
:17:58. > :18:01.We should recognise society generally in England, Wales, and
:18:02. > :18:04.wider has changed and attitudes towards sexual violence and abuse of
:18:05. > :18:09.conduct has changed and law enforcement, the police, the justice
:18:10. > :18:14.system has changed along the same lines. We take this incredibly
:18:15. > :18:17.seriously, we are sensitive to some of the pressures on victims and
:18:18. > :18:25.complainants and take a more robust approach than a generation ago.
:18:26. > :18:30.There has been a cultural shift, argue animating that they didn't do
:18:31. > :18:37.everything they should have done all those years ago? -- are you
:18:38. > :18:40.admitting. 250 victims coming forward in direct response to your
:18:41. > :18:45.appeal. There are things that with the benefit of hindsight we would
:18:46. > :18:50.all have sought to have done differently. That is about learning.
:18:51. > :18:57.That is deeply regrettable, there are occasions when we cannot be
:18:58. > :19:00.proud of the way in which some allegations have been dealt with
:19:01. > :19:04.historically, but we have learned those lessons, things have
:19:05. > :19:07.improved, the numbers of victims coming forward expressing confidence
:19:08. > :19:16.in the process is a real testament to the journey we have been on.
:19:17. > :19:22.At the outset of the enquiry so Ronald Waterhouse was clear, his
:19:23. > :19:27.tribunal would not act as a court putting individuals on trial, but
:19:28. > :19:32.was intended to establish the extent of the abuse and why it wasn't
:19:33. > :19:35.detected earlier. Of course, historic abuse of
:19:36. > :19:40.children in North Wales has been the subject of an investigation before.
:19:41. > :19:48.At a cost of ?13 million of public money, the Waterhouse Enquiry spent
:19:49. > :19:49.three years gathering evidence and coming up with various
:19:50. > :19:57.recommendations aimed at preventing a recurrence of the abuses of the
:19:58. > :20:03.past. Statement, Mr Secretary Murphy. For
:20:04. > :20:11.those who lives have been chattered, the family of those who
:20:12. > :20:15.have died, we all say sorry. -- been shattered. We are determined this
:20:16. > :20:19.report will lead to a society where young people can be cared for in
:20:20. > :20:24.safety. In some quarters there is a real
:20:25. > :20:29.concern the remit was not wide enough and the enquiry did not go
:20:30. > :20:34.deeply enough into the allegations of abuse. And the way that some of
:20:35. > :20:39.the abused learnt of Waterhouse's interest in them was shocking. They
:20:40. > :20:45.just turned up on my door and expected, which was really bad --
:20:46. > :20:50.unexpected. I haven't told my partner I was with at the time, and
:20:51. > :20:56.the kids were in my house. You had no warning. No, they just came to
:20:57. > :21:03.the door and said we believe you were abused in care. It was bad. But
:21:04. > :21:09.you were able to tell your story to those people concerned? With the
:21:10. > :21:18.Waterhouse Enquiry, all they wanted to know was which staff were abusing
:21:19. > :21:30.you or whatever, we were being stopped on packs. -- pass. I wanted
:21:31. > :21:34.to tell them we were not just being abused on site, people were being
:21:35. > :21:44.taken off site. We were not allowed to mention that. Not to Waterhouse.
:21:45. > :21:51.It was outside their re-met? Yes. We were told you cannot mention
:21:52. > :21:55.anything that happened outside. Despite Keith Gregory's misgivings
:21:56. > :22:03.it did find there was evidence of an paedophile ring operating in Wrexham
:22:04. > :22:06.and Chester. One of the positive results to emerge was the creation
:22:07. > :22:11.of the post of Children's Commissioner for Wales. The current
:22:12. > :22:17.Commissioner sits on the Gold group and was one of those who called for
:22:18. > :22:24.a new enquiry. In fact, he got to, Operation Pallial, and another
:22:25. > :22:32.enquiry into the Waterhouse Enquiry. -- he got two. The second
:22:33. > :22:39.enquiry was called to review and is headed by a High Court judge.
:22:40. > :22:44.When I spoke out, I spoke out when I didn't know there would be Operation
:22:45. > :22:49.Pallial, I didn't know there would be a review into the Waterhouse
:22:50. > :22:53.Enquiry, I just felt very strongly something had to happen, not least
:22:54. > :22:57.because the stories that were beginning to come forward for
:22:58. > :23:04.victims who had held this for 30 years or more, were incredibly
:23:05. > :23:08.powerful. I am really pleased with what has happened since, with the
:23:09. > :23:12.way in which agencies have taken this job so seriously, and my job is
:23:13. > :23:17.to make sure those people have the strength to come forward, get their
:23:18. > :23:23.voices heard, and have everything they want to say listened to.
:23:24. > :23:28.The general consensus is those coming forward are being listened
:23:29. > :23:32.to, but those investigating the latest claims of historic abuse are
:23:33. > :23:37.also conscious of the growing concern about the wisdom of pursuing
:23:38. > :23:43.allegations of abuse which span several decades.
:23:44. > :23:46.With the passage of time that presents particular challenges.
:23:47. > :23:51.Human beings struggle with passage of time to remember exactly what
:23:52. > :23:59.happened, forensic opportunities may have passed but we are pursuing
:24:00. > :24:01.evidence. We follow the evidence, presented to prosecutors and
:24:02. > :24:06.prosecutors make decisions about who should go into the criminal justice
:24:07. > :24:10.system. It has to be remembered Operation
:24:11. > :24:15.Pallial is focused on historic abuse, but the North Wales police
:24:16. > :24:18.are still responsible for investigating any new or current
:24:19. > :24:24.claims, and they know they have to get it right.
:24:25. > :24:27.Never again does North Wales police want to be accused of failing in
:24:28. > :24:33.their response to allegations of child abuse. At some point in the
:24:34. > :24:40.future as Operation Pallial's work draws to an end in North Wales force
:24:41. > :24:44.will once again have to take over all responsibility for investigating
:24:45. > :24:53.any allegations of abuse, whether new or historical. Those who have
:24:54. > :24:56.been child abuse perpetrators need to look over their shoulder for the
:24:57. > :25:01.rest of their lives. We have invested a lot of time and effort in
:25:02. > :25:05.training our staff are fashionably making sure we have the capability
:25:06. > :25:13.to go where we haven't gone before and making sure we are providing the
:25:14. > :25:17.best possible service to victims. For those who were abused the
:25:18. > :25:23.passage of time has not made the crime any more or less serious. It
:25:24. > :25:29.was, and will always be, the same. A time of the world at and betrayal at
:25:30. > :25:33.the hands of adults who were charged with the most fundamental of
:25:34. > :25:40.responsibilities, keeping children in their care safe. Children in our
:25:41. > :25:45.looked after system are much safer than they were in the 70s and 80s,
:25:46. > :25:50.there is no doubt in my mind that is true. We have made huge amount of
:25:51. > :25:54.progress. I am still the Children's Commissioner for Wales who in 2014
:25:55. > :25:57.is saying to the Welsh government we need to make sure that children and
:25:58. > :26:02.young people get their voices heard. I don't say that because it
:26:03. > :26:06.is a nice thing to say, I say that because when children are not
:26:07. > :26:10.listened to all believed, if there are bad things happening to them and
:26:11. > :26:18.people don't respond, that is when you have real problems.
:26:19. > :26:22.There is no definitive timescale on completing Operation Pallial. It
:26:23. > :26:26.will take as long as it takes to complete an investigation which
:26:27. > :26:30.should have been done a long time ago. It wasn't and the scale of the
:26:31. > :26:35.current operation and the response to it is evidence of a failure, and
:26:36. > :26:41.the consequences for hundreds of people is immeasurable. And whatever
:26:42. > :26:47.happens now, those people will never be able to reclaim their childhood.
:26:48. > :26:52.I don't want to be sitting here in ten years like we have been doing
:26:53. > :26:57.for the last ten, 20 years. This time it has got to be right and I
:26:58. > :27:02.hope everybody does their proper job which I think they are doing, to be
:27:03. > :27:09.honest. There are more arrests, enquiries. I hope we get it sorted
:27:10. > :27:13.and we can all move on with our lives.
:27:14. > :27:19.Keith Gregory ending that special report by David Williams. The cost
:27:20. > :27:23.of Operation Pallial has risen to three quarters of ?1 million, paid
:27:24. > :27:28.for by the Home Office. It is expected to rise again as the
:27:29. > :27:32.investigation continues and further arrests are made, with court cases
:27:33. > :27:35.to follow. Please say for those wishing to contact them about
:27:36. > :27:42.historic abuse the door remains very much open -- police. That is it for
:27:43. > :27:46.this week. You Edwards will be back next week. You can get in touch with
:27:47. > :27:54.us about the issues discussed tonight or anything else will stop
:27:55. > :27:59.-- Hugh Edwards. Thank you for watching. Good night.