:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight on The Wales Report: Where are we heading on the devolution
:00:07. > :00:09.journey? How should Wales be governed in the
:00:10. > :00:14.years to come? We'll be looking ahead to the latest milestone which
:00:15. > :00:17.affects all of us. Local authority budgets under pressure - we'll be
:00:18. > :00:20.looking at the implications for Welsh libraries.
:00:21. > :00:25.And as St David's Day approaches, we'll be talking about modern
:00:26. > :00:35.notions of national identity. Stay with us for The Wales Report.
:00:36. > :00:41.Good evening. Welcome to The Wales Report - our chances to look at the
:00:42. > :00:45.issues affecting lives in Wales and question those making the decisions.
:00:46. > :00:47.On tonight's programme: The future shape of the United Kingdom is in
:00:48. > :00:51.the spotlight again. David Cameron took his cabinet to
:00:52. > :00:54.Aberdeen this week as the debate on Scottish independent intensifies.
:00:55. > :00:58.And in Wales we're expecting the next stage in our own debate when
:00:59. > :01:03.the Silk Commission publishes the second part of its recommendations
:01:04. > :01:06.on how Wales should be governed. But we can't even agree on Silk Part one
:01:07. > :01:10.and key financial powers, so is there any prospect of consensus on
:01:11. > :01:21.the next step? Our parliamentary correspondent David Cornock has been
:01:22. > :01:26.investigating. The shape of the UK is shifting
:01:27. > :01:30.beneath our feet, and I am not just talking about the floods. In
:01:31. > :01:36.Aberdeen on Monday you could not move for politicians wanting to talk
:01:37. > :01:45.independence. Whispers that the union cannot remain as it is when
:01:46. > :01:51.the Scots stay or go are growing louder and louder. Wales can only
:01:52. > :01:54.shout from the sidelines in that particular battle, but we do have
:01:55. > :02:00.our own constitutional issues to grapple with. Next week the SIlk
:02:01. > :02:09.Commission on devolution is due to publish its second report. It is
:02:10. > :02:13.looking at areas like justice and whether they will stay here or be
:02:14. > :02:16.transferred to Cardiff Bay. The UK Government says there is no need for
:02:17. > :02:35.radical change, so stand by for another row. The first part of the
:02:36. > :02:53.SIlk Commission is still under scrutiny. It was not meant to be
:02:54. > :03:06.like this. David Cameron and Nick Clegg came to be Senate with smiling
:03:07. > :03:11.faces. There was a bipartisan self pitch and it worked for a while. The
:03:12. > :03:19.four party leaders in the Assembly welcomed the announcement. However,
:03:20. > :03:26.the Welsh record in areas like health and education started to be
:03:27. > :03:31.noticed here. If anyone wants to know what will happen to the NHS
:03:32. > :03:34.under Labour they can look at Wales where they are smashing the NHS
:03:35. > :03:39.budget and they are seeing more people waiting for longer. That is
:03:40. > :03:45.what happens when you get a Labour Party running the NHS. Devolution
:03:46. > :03:53.will always mean tension between Wales and Westminster. The powers
:03:54. > :04:02.debate has exposed differences between the leaders of the Welsh
:04:03. > :04:17.Conservatives in Wales and in Westminster. There is a perception
:04:18. > :04:19.that the Welsh Secretary does not want to acquiesce to be
:04:20. > :04:24.suggestions. It is not good for the party. The problem for the Welsh
:04:25. > :04:34.Conservatives is that neither Andrew RT Davies or Andrew Jones believes
:04:35. > :04:36.the other's job should exist. There is suggestion that the Welsh
:04:37. > :04:43.Conservatives could come more autonomous, like in Scotland. I have
:04:44. > :04:48.been covering the Welsh grand committee for 25 years, man and boy.
:04:49. > :04:52.Earlier this month the Shadow Welsh Secretary break the committee's
:04:53. > :04:55.underwritten roles and said something newsworthy. Labour
:04:56. > :05:01.ministers in Cardiff may have described the tax and borrowing
:05:02. > :05:05.packages as a good deal for Wales. Owen Smith put it slightly
:05:06. > :05:10.differently. We will not ease seeking income tax varying powers in
:05:11. > :05:26.the future. We feel there is a trap being laid for Welsh people by the
:05:27. > :05:33.Conservatives. Where does this leave us? Welsh government ministers could
:05:34. > :05:36.find themselves in an exclusive club of politicians, turning down the
:05:37. > :05:44.offer of more powers and then refusing to use them even if they
:05:45. > :05:48.are given them. Power dashed these days, you can't even give it away.
:05:49. > :05:50.David Cornock reporting. Joining me now is the chair of the Welsh
:05:51. > :05:53.Affairs Select Committee at Westminster, the Conservative MP
:05:54. > :05:58.David Davies. Thank you for joining us. Our more powers needed in
:05:59. > :06:04.Cardiff or not? Everyone has a slightly different opinion. My view
:06:05. > :06:10.is no secret. I would not divulge further powers to the Welsh
:06:11. > :06:13.Assembly. After the last referendum, politicians who wanted those powers
:06:14. > :06:17.and got them said they had all be tools in the tool box and they just
:06:18. > :06:22.wanted to get on with things and I wish them every success with that.
:06:23. > :06:26.Let them get on with things. There is no need to grant further powers
:06:27. > :06:32.every couple of years, which is what we seem to be doing. Do you think
:06:33. > :06:37.they are in a position to govern effectively without the powers over
:06:38. > :06:41.things like income tax? They are. They have been making changes in
:06:42. > :06:47.health and education without those powers. Those changes have not been
:06:48. > :06:52.promising. Education is lagging and we have longer waiting lists, but
:06:53. > :06:59.they have had the powers to do things about it, but they have just
:07:00. > :07:10.not done anything about it. What are your thoughts on devolving income
:07:11. > :07:23.tax powers, for example? We said that we would abide by the temp
:07:24. > :07:29.macro one. -- Silk Commission. I would prefer they did not have
:07:30. > :07:34.powers over income tax. Clearly lots of people in all of the political
:07:35. > :07:38.parties have different views. There is no secret that there is a
:07:39. > :07:46.difference of opinion within the Conservative Party. There are also
:07:47. > :07:53.differences within the Labour Party. The divisions are clear. Do you
:07:54. > :07:59.regret the fact that four colleagues were dismissed on this issue? I have
:08:00. > :08:04.made my views clear. I was surprised that for my colleagues were
:08:05. > :08:08.dismissed for effectively backing the Conservative Party policy in
:08:09. > :08:12.London. That was a surprising decision. I have voted against my
:08:13. > :08:16.own party on occasion in Westminster. I find people are
:08:17. > :08:22.relatively accepting of that and I thought it would either same in
:08:23. > :08:28.Cardiff. Do you think Mr Davies is the right man to lead the Welsh
:08:29. > :08:36.Conservatives in the next election? He remains the leader and that is
:08:37. > :08:45.fine. Do you think you should be? I do want to see a big row over it. I
:08:46. > :08:51.hope we can sort things out a little bit more at the meetings that we
:08:52. > :08:57.will be having shortly. You don't sound very enthusiastic, David. I am
:08:58. > :09:00.enthusiastic about seeing a strong Conservative group in the Welsh
:09:01. > :09:05.Assembly and I won't do anything to undermine them. You have an away
:09:06. > :09:12.because you have not said whether is the right person to lead the party.
:09:13. > :09:17.No one else is putting their hat into the ring. He is the right
:09:18. > :09:20.person at the moment. He said he would not support further powers for
:09:21. > :09:24.the Assembly and he told us all the things we wanted to hear and we were
:09:25. > :09:31.all very pleased with what he had to say a couple of years ago. Are you
:09:32. > :09:40.saying he has changed his tune? I am not, but some things are off-kilter
:09:41. > :09:43.at the moment. When you have a devolved administration and parties
:09:44. > :09:48.which are represented in Cardiff and Westminster, there are bound to be
:09:49. > :09:53.tensions. As you have said, they apply to other parties as well, but
:09:54. > :10:02.in your party they have come to the fore and I wonder why you cannot say
:10:03. > :10:06.to me that that you think Andrew RT Davies is doing the right thing. I
:10:07. > :10:11.support the Conservative Party in the Welsh Assembly and I want is to
:10:12. > :10:27.win more seats. I will do nothing to undermine them and I am aware of the
:10:28. > :10:31.failures of the NHS. I have children in state schools and use the NHS. I
:10:32. > :10:37.want what everyone else wants. At the moment, we have not got as good
:10:38. > :10:50.a system in Wales as we do in England. Finally, what would you say
:10:51. > :11:02.to the viewers dash do you think the Assembly -- to the viewers? Should
:11:03. > :11:07.the Assembly just stumble on? We are giving more and more powers to the
:11:08. > :11:12.Assembly every couple of years without there being any chance of
:11:13. > :11:18.taking powers away and we are going on a one-way trip towards
:11:19. > :11:23.independence. I am a unionist. Other people have their opinions and if
:11:24. > :11:30.they are willing to argue it honestly, let's do it. We are sleep
:11:31. > :11:36.walking into independence without doing anything about the West
:11:37. > :11:48.Lothian question. It worries me that we are doing this. Thank you for
:11:49. > :11:56.talking to us. I will be discussing the latest findings of the Silk
:11:57. > :11:59.Commission next week. In the coming weeks councils
:12:00. > :12:02.throughout Wales will finalise budgets that will bring far-reaching
:12:03. > :12:05.changes to the way public services are delivered. The squeeze is likely
:12:06. > :12:07.to affect leisure and library provision across Wales, despite a
:12:08. > :12:10.legal requirement that councils have to provide an efficient and
:12:11. > :12:13.comprehensive library service. As Helen Callaghan reports, there are
:12:14. > :12:22.concerns that more needs to be done to save Welsh libraries from the
:12:23. > :12:25.threat of closure. It is the heartbeat of the community. Without
:12:26. > :12:31.this place I would not know where to go. It is getting busier. Every week
:12:32. > :12:41.there seems to be more and more people. We really want to see the
:12:42. > :12:49.library survive and it went before the lack of effort. We are the sixth
:12:50. > :12:57.richest country in the world. We should be able to afford a likely
:12:58. > :12:58.service. Why law, councils must provide communities with a
:12:59. > :13:07.comprehensive and efficient library service. There are serious concerns
:13:08. > :13:15.that this is being conferred coxswain -- this is being forgotten.
:13:16. > :13:19.It is important councils think these things through and don't think it is
:13:20. > :13:27.a cheap and easy way with no consequence. It will have a huge
:13:28. > :13:31.impact on people 's lives. There is a link between literacy and
:13:32. > :13:41.anti-social behaviour and criminality. All of these decisions
:13:42. > :13:50.have costs. The generations like these have been a focal point for
:13:51. > :13:55.generations and that -- a focal point for communities and that
:13:56. > :14:01.remains the same. You can access the Internet for free, take out books
:14:02. > :14:06.and do courses. It is a hub for the entire community. Some authorities
:14:07. > :14:16.have invested in libraries rather than cutting them. Libraries still
:14:17. > :14:23.have a place in the hearts of Welsh people with visitor numbers rising
:14:24. > :14:30.by 21% in the last ten years. Across the rest of the UK their use has
:14:31. > :14:37.declined. On a miserable Monday, the library's importance to local people
:14:38. > :14:43.is plain to see. The local job club is a lifeline for people who cannot
:14:44. > :14:52.travel to the job centre or those who do not have the Internet. They
:14:53. > :14:59.make sure I am doing things correctly. I wouldn't be to do this
:15:00. > :15:07.if the library wasn't here. We have a lot of people here on a Monday
:15:08. > :15:13.morning. This is the heartbeat of the community. Without this place I
:15:14. > :15:16.would not know where to go. But in some communities that heartbeat is
:15:17. > :15:20.becoming fainter and soon may stop altogether. It is expect to that
:15:21. > :15:26.over 30 libraries will close across Wales following council cuts. In
:15:27. > :15:31.this area nine are under threat. This library is one aim to the
:15:32. > :15:36.closure. It is due to shut its doors at the end of March, but local
:15:37. > :15:43.people are doing everything in their power to make sure it stays open.
:15:44. > :15:49.Coming to the rescue are two residents who have never run a
:15:50. > :15:55.library before. They are due to take over on the 1st of April. We don't
:15:56. > :16:00.want the libraries to close. We have lost so many amenities in the past.
:16:01. > :16:06.Libraries run by local communities were once a common sight. Wash
:16:07. > :16:09.miners would pay some of their wages towards their local library. --
:16:10. > :16:32.Welsh miners. It will be difficult to reach the
:16:33. > :16:38.standard of the professionals but we will learn and we will come through.
:16:39. > :16:42.We want to see the library survive. In England it is estimated that
:16:43. > :16:47.nearly 500 libraries and now run by volunteers, charities or social
:16:48. > :16:53.enterprises but many argue that has led to a drop in standards. We are
:16:54. > :16:58.very much for libraries working with people in the community but the
:16:59. > :17:01.issue here is the replacement of paid professional staff with
:17:02. > :17:08.volunteers. We have seen what has happened across England. It has led
:17:09. > :17:13.to a patchwork service. With further budget cuts predicted that there's
:17:14. > :17:17.more libraries will close and the standards of those are staying open
:17:18. > :17:20.will fall. Many believe it's up to politicians to police those
:17:21. > :17:26.providing them and ensure our libraries don't become easy prey for
:17:27. > :17:30.those balancing the books. When Britain was on its knees at the end
:17:31. > :17:37.of the war there was still this idea about building a better library
:17:38. > :17:41.service. Even during those dark periods, it never went backwards.
:17:42. > :17:46.This is the first time this has happened.
:17:47. > :17:54.Helen Callaghan reporting. Joining me now is the Culture Minister, John
:17:55. > :17:57.Griffiths. There was a phrase there that libraries could be easy prey
:17:58. > :18:09.for those people looking for cats. Do you they -- they fear they are
:18:10. > :18:11.becoming easy prey? Libraries is a statutory responsibility. We have to
:18:12. > :18:17.get that message over loud and clear. Together with that, the very
:18:18. > :18:22.valuable role that libraries play and it's a wide ruled today. It's
:18:23. > :18:30.about helping people develop information technology skills and
:18:31. > :18:37.using IT equipment. They are -- there are new usages for libraries
:18:38. > :18:42.as well as the traditional usages. My role is to worth -- work with
:18:43. > :18:48.local authorities so that picture is fully understood. I disappointed
:18:49. > :18:53.that at least 31 libraries are facing the axe? I am disappointed
:18:54. > :18:58.that threat is hanging over those libraries. We need to look at the
:18:59. > :18:59.whole picture. Local authorities have different geographical
:19:00. > :19:08.circumstances, different patterns of delivery. So some of those are
:19:09. > :19:14.justified? Maybe. Some libraries have low usage. It is because of the
:19:15. > :19:19.publishing and geography and it can be justified to close library. 30
:19:20. > :19:24.sounds quite high to me but I know the consultation processes have
:19:25. > :19:29.shown just what I described earlier, that local communities really do
:19:30. > :19:32.value they library services and as a result of that consultation
:19:33. > :19:38.process, some local authorities are looking at these issues again. Can
:19:39. > :19:44.you say to them, I know you are in a difficult position but it is my view
:19:45. > :19:50.that in this case you are wrong to close these libraries. Can you do
:19:51. > :19:55.that? Not easily. I do have powers of information and I can hold an
:19:56. > :20:02.enquiry and I can remove library services from a local authority. But
:20:03. > :20:06.that is a last resort. What we want to do is work closely with local
:20:07. > :20:13.authorities to point out that are new models of delivery and
:20:14. > :20:17.provision. Co-location for example. Co-location with leisure services
:20:18. > :20:24.and information stop shops and museum space and community cafes. We
:20:25. > :20:26.have some really good examples and where we bring services together,
:20:27. > :20:34.they can be provided more economic view. When we can to the end of this
:20:35. > :20:40.process, do you hope that most of these 30 when we are talking about
:20:41. > :20:44.will be saved? I hope so. We are seeing those conversations taking
:20:45. > :20:50.place as to how those libraries could be saved. Could you offer some
:20:51. > :20:59.financial support? We have provided ?12 million to 89 libraries. Much of
:21:00. > :21:06.the co-location has been at -- as a result of that financial help. We
:21:07. > :21:17.have not got a great thought of resource -- a great deal of resource
:21:18. > :21:19.available. We face the same difficult financial circumstances
:21:20. > :21:23.ourselves. Now, how many of many of you feel
:21:24. > :21:34.like this? # Every day when I wake up I thank
:21:35. > :21:38.the Lord I'm Welsh. We've been putting that sentiment to
:21:39. > :21:43.the test. In a special BBC Poll for St David's Day, we asked you to tell
:21:44. > :21:47.us how you feel about your national identity. Nearly a quarter of you
:21:48. > :21:52.say you feel more Welsh than British. With just 8% saying they
:21:53. > :21:54.feel more British than Welsh. But it seems that those polled are more
:21:55. > :21:59.comfortable with a dual identity, with almost 40% saying they feel
:22:00. > :22:03.both equally Welsh and British. The author Jon Gower has been to meet
:22:04. > :22:16.students at St David's College in Cardiff to get a flavour of the
:22:17. > :22:19.debate on identity there. As Saint Davids day approaches it
:22:20. > :22:24.seems appropriate to come to a college named after our patron saint
:22:25. > :22:28.to consider the cognitive issue of British versus Welsh identity. Do
:22:29. > :22:36.you see yourself as Welsh or British? British. Welsh. More Welsh
:22:37. > :22:42.than British. Half Welsh and half Somali. I feel more Welsh than
:22:43. > :22:48.British. What is it about being Welsh that appeals to you? Having a
:22:49. > :22:55.language you can identify as your own. That is very important to me.
:22:56. > :23:03.You don't have to speak Welsh to be Welsh. Definitely not. You have to
:23:04. > :23:08.embrace or culture. If people don't embrace their culture, they just
:23:09. > :23:12.live in Wales and they are not Welsh. But when they are able to get
:23:13. > :23:20.involved in all our traditions and our historical aspects, if they can
:23:21. > :23:30.embrace that and enjoy it, then they are Welsh. Identity can swiftly
:23:31. > :23:37.turned into nationalism and there are good cones and bad kinds of
:23:38. > :23:41.that. Once identity comes -- becomes political, it can become a charged
:23:42. > :23:47.word. I know some Welsh people who very much dislike the idea of being
:23:48. > :23:53.British. You have to find the right kind of balance for you. You should
:23:54. > :23:59.not go overboard to the extreme. To be British, is it to be proud of
:24:00. > :24:04.being British as well? To be British I think involves generally
:24:05. > :24:11.understanding every aspect of Britain so that involves Scotland,
:24:12. > :24:18.England, Ireland and Wales. Understanding a mixture of cultures
:24:19. > :24:25.and embracing that. It is a matter of allegiance, isn't it? It is such
:24:26. > :24:29.a vibrant culture and not a lot of people expect what we can offer as a
:24:30. > :24:39.country. The diversity of Wales is key and it is one of the things that
:24:40. > :24:45.makes Wales, Wales. Wales is steadily becoming more multicultural
:24:46. > :24:54.and I do feel comfortable here and I know I won't be discriminated
:24:55. > :24:58.against because I am different. It seems in matters of identity at all
:24:59. > :25:02.but -- it all boils down to choice and it's a bit like choosing soup in
:25:03. > :25:09.a restaurant. You either go for the Welsh soup or find out it is all a
:25:10. > :25:12.kind of minestrone. Jon Gower with students from St
:25:13. > :25:15.David's College in Cardiff. I'm joined now by the Assembly Member,
:25:16. > :25:19.Lord Elis Thomas, formerly Presiding Officer at the National Assembly and
:25:20. > :25:24.a former chair of the Welsh Language Board. That was an interesting set
:25:25. > :25:33.of voices. I thought they were very intelligent and had a very den Amick
:25:34. > :25:40.cultural idea of identity. -- a dynamic cultural idea. It is
:25:41. > :25:44.interesting when you put in -- put it in the context of the latest ABC
:25:45. > :25:48.poll which suggests the biggest chunk of people in Wales still
:25:49. > :25:54.consider themselves to be half British and half Welsh. Is that an
:25:55. > :26:02.odd finding in 2014? I don't think it's odd at all. I don't usually use
:26:03. > :26:11.the word British myself that the UK has given me a good living. In the
:26:12. > :26:17.context of the lively debate now in Scotland, on independence, whatever
:26:18. > :26:21.the result, how is that likely to translate in Wales in terms of
:26:22. > :26:27.people's notion of Welshness not just in a political context within a
:26:28. > :26:31.cultural context? It is already making a difference. The whole
:26:32. > :26:36.debate in Scotland is forcing us to ask, we is England and Wales? The
:26:37. > :26:40.Scottish government has redefined what being an independent country
:26:41. > :26:48.means. A lot of the argument now is between the UK government which is
:26:49. > :26:56.saying you can't have joint currency. In my analysis, Scotland
:26:57. > :27:00.is not believe the UK. The UK is changing yet again. The whole thing
:27:01. > :27:06.has been a feature of the Imperial period. Now the Imperial period is
:27:07. > :27:10.over, the relations between the countries will change. I work in a
:27:11. > :27:16.building in London where the four countries of the UK at up on the
:27:17. > :27:22.wall and at the centre and heart of the building. The UK has always been
:27:23. > :27:27.a multinational state. We started with this idea of Welsh identity and
:27:28. > :27:36.how it has changed. It is 40 years since you were first elected as an
:27:37. > :27:45.MP. If Scotland votes yes, what will that mean for politics in Wales? And
:27:46. > :27:51.what will it mean to the notion of national identity in Wales? The key
:27:52. > :27:54.thing is that England has got to become a proper European -- European
:27:55. > :28:01.country and its own right. That is the future. The principality of
:28:02. > :28:07.Wales was our creation. The nationality of Wales has been in
:28:08. > :28:12.doubt at different times but for the majority of the people of Wales, it
:28:13. > :28:19.has never been in doubt. It has been reinvented by devolution. The
:28:20. > :28:28.diversity and culture and social values, all these things are
:28:29. > :28:34.essential to our culture of being. That will still grow. The politics
:28:35. > :28:38.is a bit late catching up with that. That's it for this week's programme.
:28:39. > :28:41.We'll be back next Wednesday. In the meantime, you can get in touch with
:28:42. > :28:43.us about the issues discussed tonight, or indeed anything else.
:28:44. > :28:45.E-mail us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk. And we are
:28:46. > :28:47.on Twitter - @thewalesreport. Thanks for watching. Good night. Nos
:28:48. > :28:51.da.