:00:00. > :00:13.Tonight a special programme from the Senedd in Cardiff Bay. This week a
:00:14. > :00:17.major report recommends further powers for the Assembly - we quiz
:00:18. > :00:21.First Minister Carwyn Jones about the next steps on the devolution
:00:22. > :00:25.journey in Wales. I want to see a settlement that is
:00:26. > :00:29.clear and Scotland is in that position where we have a better fit
:00:30. > :00:31.for services being delivered and then we can move on from endless
:00:32. > :00:45.constitutional debate. Good evening and welcome to a
:00:46. > :00:48.special programme from the Senedd where on Monday a major report into
:00:49. > :00:52.devolution in Wales recommended that further powers be devolved here to
:00:53. > :00:54.the National Assembly. The second part of the Silk Commission put
:00:55. > :00:57.forward 61 recommendations including handing over control of policing to
:00:58. > :01:05.Wales, along with granting more powers over energy and transport.
:01:06. > :01:08.The report also said that the current devolution arrangement is
:01:09. > :01:16.too complex for people to understand or to find out where exactly power
:01:17. > :01:20.lies. Professor Richard Wyn Jones, the Director of the Wales Governance
:01:21. > :01:24.Centre, went along to the report launch. He gives his take on the
:01:25. > :01:43.report. This is a red letter day for
:01:44. > :01:46.constitutional anoraks like myself. We are about to go and listen to the
:01:47. > :01:51.launch of the second report of the Silk Commission and that is going to
:01:52. > :01:56.determine the way Wales is governed for several years.
:01:57. > :02:00.Our recommendations emerged out of the evidence. The commission was
:02:01. > :02:06.established by the UK government after the 2011 action. Crucially,
:02:07. > :02:10.all four of the parties represented in the Assembly nominated
:02:11. > :02:23.representatives to the commission. Now begins the time that they try to
:02:24. > :02:26.mobilise and apathetic public. The government is thinking about a
:02:27. > :02:31.Scottish independent election and a general election over the horizon.
:02:32. > :02:35.What is historically important about this kind of exercise is that it
:02:36. > :02:41.injects basic constitutional principle into the debate, much of
:02:42. > :02:45.the way Wales has developed has been down to the internal politics of the
:02:46. > :02:48.parties and you get pragmatic decisions, some of which aren't
:02:49. > :02:54.brilliant in terms of getting a government that works. These guys
:02:55. > :02:57.have left their party affiliation at the door and come up with a
:02:58. > :03:06.anonymous report which tries to inject some principle.
:03:07. > :03:13.Our commission, I think, did have as it's ambition trying to settle some
:03:14. > :03:18.of these prisoners questions, trying to settle their powers ought to be
:03:19. > :03:23.distributed, so that the political dialogue in Wales can concentrate on
:03:24. > :03:25.how those powers are used rather than the right powers in the right
:03:26. > :03:31.place or the right structures of government exist.
:03:32. > :03:37.I'm sure the headlines will be about things like devolving large-scale
:03:38. > :03:41.energy projects but the real story at the heart of this is a complete
:03:42. > :03:45.transformation about the model of devolution we have for Wales. To
:03:46. > :03:50.understand what is devolved in Wales we have defined schedule seven of
:03:51. > :03:54.the 2006 act and get into the detail. They are suggesting to
:03:55. > :03:59.transform that and saying, everything is devolved unless it is
:04:00. > :04:03.reserved to Westminster and that is a completely different mindset. It
:04:04. > :04:07.will underline the fact that it is the most government and the National
:04:08. > :04:11.Assembly for Wales which are the key levels of government in terms of our
:04:12. > :04:18.daily lives. That is a radical transformation. We got the worst
:04:19. > :04:22.political class, the most government and now the Silk Commission all
:04:23. > :04:29.agreed that reserved powers is the way to go and this will give us a
:04:30. > :04:32.more coherent and stable settlement. David Jones, the Secretary of State
:04:33. > :04:39.for Wales, said that he favoured conferred powers and he doesn't want
:04:40. > :04:41.a reserve power model for Wales. We have to diametrically opposed
:04:42. > :04:47.positions and who wins smack comments from David Jones this week
:04:48. > :04:50.-- who wins? Comments from David Jones suggest he is not about to
:04:51. > :04:54.change his mind. The people of Wales will want the
:04:55. > :04:57.bus government to make it clear the powers they get will be used
:04:58. > :04:59.bus government to make it clear the properly and frankly, after proper
:05:00. > :05:03.liaison with the UK government, which is another theme which has
:05:04. > :05:06.developed in the Silk report. The Silk Commission have nominees
:05:07. > :05:11.from each physical party in the Assembly. These representatives now
:05:12. > :05:15.have to launch their carefully worded report onto the political
:05:16. > :05:20.battlefield and convinced their parties to take its recommendations
:05:21. > :05:24.on board. It is really important for me, as
:05:25. > :05:30.the party nominee, to go to the conference and persuade our
:05:31. > :05:32.conference attendance of the importance of actually putting this
:05:33. > :05:38.into the manifesto, not just for the UK general election but also for the
:05:39. > :05:47.Welsh election. I am expecting and in anticipating that other parties
:05:48. > :05:51.will do the same. The content of the manifestoes are
:05:52. > :05:57.going to be determined by the outcome of big battles within the
:05:58. > :06:00.Driscoll parties themselves, particular Labour and the
:06:01. > :06:05.Conservatives. Carwyn Jones has nailed his colours to the reserved
:06:06. > :06:10.powers last and I suspect he will actually get that. Devolving
:06:11. > :06:14.policing is the source of contention between Welsh Labour MPs on one hand
:06:15. > :06:18.and the Welsh government on the other. In terms of the
:06:19. > :06:22.Conservatives, there has already been a big public falling out
:06:23. > :06:27.between David Jones and Andrew RT Davies on devolving tax varying
:06:28. > :06:34.powers. Those battles will continue and intensify. Will this report end
:06:35. > :06:40.up gathering dust on a Whitehall shelf? I think probably not and
:06:41. > :06:43.that's because most of the people working in the national Assembly
:06:44. > :06:47.actually believe we need a reserved powers model of evolution to
:06:48. > :06:52.establish devolved government on a properly effective and stable
:06:53. > :06:58.foundation. Notwithstanding that, whatever happens, I think it is
:06:59. > :07:02.genuinely striking that three years after the last referendum we have a
:07:03. > :07:08.unanimous report from a cross-party commission recommending further
:07:09. > :07:16.powers in the devolution settlement for Wales. Wales is changing really
:07:17. > :07:19.rapidly for up what --. What this has done is ring the bell to
:07:20. > :07:23.commence a political fight that will play out before us over the next few
:07:24. > :07:30.months and years. Where will that leave Wales in ten years time? I
:07:31. > :07:36.might be self-confessed anorak but I'm no profit. Your guess is as good
:07:37. > :07:38.as mine. Richard Wyn Jones, director of
:07:39. > :07:43.Cardiff University's Governance Centre there. I'm joined now by
:07:44. > :07:46.First Minister Carwyn Jones. Let's start on the last point, about
:07:47. > :07:53.where we will be in ten years time in terms of Welsh devolution.
:07:54. > :07:56.Where would you like to be? Over the next year or two I would like us to
:07:57. > :08:00.chart the course for the next ten years. We know things are more
:08:01. > :08:03.settled than they have been in the past and we have a devolution
:08:04. > :08:09.settlement that will last. You used the word settled and that
:08:10. > :08:14.is the word Peter Hain used several years ago and here we are. If the
:08:15. > :08:22.journey going fast for your liking? There. We have a situation which
:08:23. > :08:28.have two government bills which end up. It is so vague that people don't
:08:29. > :08:33.understand where the boundaries are. I would like to see a settlement
:08:34. > :08:37.which is clear and we have a better fit for service being delivered and
:08:38. > :08:44.then we can move on from endless constitutional debate.
:08:45. > :08:49.The Silk report, as you see it, is a tidying up exercise. Proving what we
:08:50. > :08:53.know is devolved. You are not ambitious for more
:08:54. > :08:58.powers? It is quite significant because it talks about the reserved
:08:59. > :09:02.powers model, which is what everyone talks about on the street in Wales!
:09:03. > :09:05.It makes it clear about who does what and talks about getting the
:09:06. > :09:09.right level of power over energy, one of our greatest resources. It
:09:10. > :09:11.talks about devolving the police, which is the only emergency service
:09:12. > :09:21.which isn't devolved. It is very different and put us in a different
:09:22. > :09:25.position from when we were before. You have said no to income tax. You
:09:26. > :09:30.don't fancy that one and we will come on to that shortly but there
:09:31. > :09:34.are arts of powers you don't want. Yes to policing but no to criminal
:09:35. > :09:40.justice, for example. We know that. What about teachers pay? We didn't
:09:41. > :09:43.ask about teachers pay but it maybe they devolved anyway. What is
:09:44. > :09:53.crucial is they are devolved, the full financial package comes with
:09:54. > :09:57.it. If it is on offer, we could look at it but we know with the council
:09:58. > :10:03.tax benefits, for example, when we are giving something we didn't ask
:10:04. > :10:08.for, they top slice the budget. Yes to further energy projects.
:10:09. > :10:13.What about speed limits? It is about community safety and if you look at
:10:14. > :10:15.What about speed limits? It is about driving it is a part of community
:10:16. > :10:20.safety. So yes in terms of that but what
:10:21. > :10:25.else do you want? It is up to the people of Wales but
:10:26. > :10:29.what I want is clarity. I want to make sure we have proper powers over
:10:30. > :10:35.energy and it's ridiculous that there is no way we can develop the
:10:36. > :10:40.energy sector. We don't control the level of subsidies as the Scots do.
:10:41. > :10:44.There is a better fit to have policing devolved because other
:10:45. > :10:49.aspects are devolved but we can't just spend our time demanding more
:10:50. > :10:55.time, even when they wouldn't work for us. No justice is an interesting
:10:56. > :11:02.idea and massively expensive. We would have to build up expertise.
:11:03. > :11:09.And many. -- and many. What about response
:11:10. > :11:12.ability, which is about Silk part one, the financial settlement. Many
:11:13. > :11:17.would argue that is where the response ability is and you have to
:11:18. > :11:24.raise and very your own taxes. You are saying no thank you? As far
:11:25. > :11:30.as tax DC is concerned, yes -- tax duty.
:11:31. > :11:38.The big one? Wales is underfunded. We know that. Unless underfunding is
:11:39. > :11:42.sorted out, all income tax powers will do is lock it in because with
:11:43. > :11:45.we say to the Westminster government we have to have their funding, they
:11:46. > :11:49.will say raise money yourselves without addressing the major
:11:50. > :11:53.problem. Three quarters of our budget will come from the rock
:11:54. > :11:59.around. Has it? Because it suits you at the
:12:00. > :12:03.moment, doesn't you it? You can always say that London isn't giving
:12:04. > :12:10.you enough money so the blame game is working.
:12:11. > :12:13.It doesn't address the problem. All it will do is put us in a position
:12:14. > :12:20.where people will have to pay more tax for fewer services and I'm not
:12:21. > :12:23.going to recommend that. Secondly, the model is useless as a power and
:12:24. > :12:30.all it does is raise money. You can't do it. You can't change things
:12:31. > :12:35.for the better. What is the point? Not just taking powers that are on
:12:36. > :12:39.offer without carefully considering what is on offer for the people of
:12:40. > :12:41.Wales and in terms of income tax, I can't see the benefit for people
:12:42. > :12:48.here. What about Assembly Members?
:12:49. > :12:51.More recently members? I think it is difficult unless there are fewer
:12:52. > :12:56.politicians elsewhere. We have 60 members here, smaller than the
:12:57. > :13:02.Northern Ireland Assembly. It is true to say that backbenchers worked
:13:03. > :13:06.exceptionally hard and are there to scrutinise the government. There
:13:07. > :13:10.should be 80 here, perhaps, but the reality is I don't think the public
:13:11. > :13:16.want to see more. Fewer councillors. You have got the
:13:17. > :13:21.Williams Commission looking at fewer councils. Now is the time to reject
:13:22. > :13:28.politicians. If you increase the numbers, do you
:13:29. > :13:30.increase the number elected first past the post or do you increase
:13:31. > :13:37.through proportional representation? That changes the way
:13:38. > :13:45.this place is organised so it is not a case of effects elsewhere. We have
:13:46. > :13:48.60 members and it is difficult for backbenchers. A lot of them sit on
:13:49. > :13:54.three committees a week. Do you need more?
:13:55. > :13:56.I think we can manage with the 60 we have. I don't think the time is
:13:57. > :13:59.right. But you would like more and you
:14:00. > :14:03.don't want to be unpopular by saying it?
:14:04. > :14:08.If you look at Silk as a package, not confuse the number of Assembly
:14:09. > :14:11.Members with the powers. I don't want the public in Wales to think if
:14:12. > :14:19.this place gets more powers it needs more politicians. Looking at Silk is
:14:20. > :14:29.a passage, are you bashing on Ed Miliband's door, saying, yet this in
:14:30. > :14:31.the manifesto? I have met him already. He understands he needs to
:14:32. > :14:36.put in a good already. He understands he needs to
:14:37. > :14:40.of Wales. Is Silk the blueprint? It is the basis of discussions. Fair
:14:41. > :14:47.funding is important, let's not take away from that. Each party will of
:14:48. > :14:52.its package to the electorate next year. You would be disappointed if
:14:53. > :14:56.Silk was not in the manifesto? Of course not, we have to make sure
:14:57. > :15:06.there is a decent offer for the people of Wales. Notch has been --
:15:07. > :15:11.much has been made of tensions, people saying, it was a trap. I said
:15:12. > :15:17.that first. If you look at what has happened in the Conservative party,
:15:18. > :15:20.there was openly rebellion. There was an open fight between the
:15:21. > :15:28.Secretary of State and the leader in Wales, and you will have noticed
:15:29. > :15:32.since the publication of Silk, a distinct lack of loud voices in the
:15:33. > :15:36.Labour Party saying it is bad. We have talked about getting extra
:15:37. > :15:38.powers for this place. People will say, they cannot manage what they
:15:39. > :15:43.have got. They are making a hash of the powers they have got. Delivery
:15:44. > :15:48.has been your big mantra during this term. Many would say, you are
:15:49. > :15:55.delivering but you are delivering the worst education system in terms
:15:56. > :15:58.of performance in the UK. And a failing health service. Are we?
:15:59. > :16:04.Let's look at health for example. Roddick comes to cancer, -- when it
:16:05. > :16:10.comes to cancer, waiting times are far lower than in England. They are
:16:11. > :16:12.spiralling in England, they are taking money from social services to
:16:13. > :16:18.put into hell. It is not extra money. If you look at it -- health.
:16:19. > :16:20.If you look at education, we have a good deal.
:16:21. > :16:28.If you look at education, we have a good Deal for students. You have got
:16:29. > :16:34.good statistics on health, but 15,000 people are waiting for them
:16:35. > :16:40.46 -- more than 36 months for treatment, your target is zero. An
:16:41. > :16:45.education, just under half of secondary schools in Wales are
:16:46. > :16:52.adequate or good. You cannot be proud of this. There is more work to
:16:53. > :16:56.do, we understand that. It is difficult in the second is that we
:16:57. > :17:03.find it. If you look at education, local authorities control it. Many
:17:04. > :17:06.are in special measures because of the local government structure we
:17:07. > :17:10.have. They are too small to be able the local government structure we
:17:11. > :17:18.to cope. We need to make sure ourselves and local authorities cope
:17:19. > :17:23.as well. We have put money into flooding, which they did not in
:17:24. > :17:30.England. If you live in Somerset you probably look at what is happening
:17:31. > :17:34.in Westminster at 12pm on Wednesday where Wales is ridiculed. Yanukovych
:17:35. > :17:40.is politics. There is a general election -- that is politics. The
:17:41. > :17:48.flooding has been dealt with is inept in England. Let's stick to
:17:49. > :17:51.health and education. Economy, they are not doing as well as we are. We
:17:52. > :17:57.have to look at education in the round. You say it is the hands of
:17:58. > :17:58.local authorities, but surely you take some responsibility centrally
:17:59. > :18:06.about those policies. take some responsibility centrally
:18:07. > :18:09.have to. But we do not deliver education, that is delivered by
:18:10. > :18:14.other bodies. We have to make/there is the right structure for education
:18:15. > :18:23.-- we have to make sure there is the right structure. It is the blame
:18:24. > :18:26.game again. In Westminster, we hear it all the time, the current
:18:27. > :18:30.government blames the previous one. Here, you cannot do that because for
:18:31. > :18:34.the past 15 years, it has been labour. We do not have
:18:35. > :18:40.electioneering, you are right. You are living your own legacy. And it
:18:41. > :18:44.is not great. I disagree. If you look at our economy, it is stronger
:18:45. > :18:47.than any time since devolution. We are doing better than England in
:18:48. > :18:55.terms of unemployment. It is not a race, but we are. We are doing far
:18:56. > :19:00.better for young unemployment. We have the biggest inward investment
:19:01. > :19:06.projects by Pinewood Studios. It is not like the Welsh economy is doing
:19:07. > :19:13.compared to England, we aren't doing better. -- we are doing better. But
:19:14. > :19:18.some statistics show that GDP is slipping. They are three years old,
:19:19. > :19:24.those statistics. You cannot keep blaming other parts of Westminster.
:19:25. > :19:27.Ella McRae have I a chilly done that? What am saying is. You two
:19:28. > :19:39.have a chilly done that? What Westminster used figures selectively
:19:40. > :19:44.to try and illustrate that Wales is doing badly in some areas, which is
:19:45. > :19:46.true. Comparing it is very difficult. England, there is
:19:47. > :19:50.true. Comparing it is very of gaming going on in terms of some
:19:51. > :19:53.figures, particularly health. The National audit office has said that
:19:54. > :19:56.you cannot trust the figures in England because they are not
:19:57. > :20:03.accurate, and ours are. On education, it is often said that. On
:20:04. > :20:08.education, it is often said that you have got the policies there. I you
:20:09. > :20:13.confident that on health and education, things are turning
:20:14. > :20:16.around? There is no question in my mind that things are going in the
:20:17. > :20:20.right direction. It is not easy, it is difficult on health, that takes
:20:21. > :20:25.45% of the aged. If you increase spending on health the -- of the
:20:26. > :20:30.budget. If you increase spending on health, the effect is very big on
:20:31. > :20:39.other departments. We are not prepared to do what they have done
:20:40. > :20:44.in England, rob the social services put it in health, and you see people
:20:45. > :20:51.are stuck in hospital because they cannot get home. Back to education,
:20:52. > :21:00.Pisa is coming, do you sit in your office and think, that is coming? It
:21:01. > :21:03.is a few years. I sit in my office and look for improvements, of
:21:04. > :21:06.course. You need to be in this job in a position where you are
:21:07. > :21:10.constantly looking for improvements. Constantly have a hunger to see
:21:11. > :21:15.Wales do better. There are areas we have two improved, -- have to
:21:16. > :21:18.improve, let's not pretend otherwise. We need to make sure we
:21:19. > :21:22.have the right service provision in health, and difficult decisions have
:21:23. > :21:25.to be taken into how health is delivered. You cannot deliver it in
:21:26. > :21:29.the same way it has been delivered in the past 20 years it is going to
:21:30. > :21:34.be effective, that can be effective. On Pisa, we will do better next
:21:35. > :21:38.time? We have to, we have to do better. We have to make sure that
:21:39. > :21:44.schools are taking Pisa as seriously as they should, it is not the only
:21:45. > :21:47.measure, we also wanted to see an improvement in GCSE results and a
:21:48. > :21:52.further closing of the gap with the UK. Let's move on to be the biggest
:21:53. > :21:55.thing which is happening this year, the Scottish referendum. You have
:21:56. > :22:02.made it clear that you hope they say no. If they say yes, where does that
:22:03. > :22:05.leave Wales? Well, yes or no, there has to be a fundamental rethink of
:22:06. > :22:08.the Constitution of Britain. You cannot just carry on as before, we
:22:09. > :22:12.have to make sure that we have a sustainable settlement in the
:22:13. > :22:16.future. The worst imaginable outcome would be for there to be, on the one
:22:17. > :22:20.hand, and no vote, which would be good, but then nothing happens in
:22:21. > :22:22.terms of further devolution of Scotland, I think
:22:23. > :22:26.terms of further devolution of dangerous and Scotland would leave
:22:27. > :22:29.the UK within a decade. There has to be further devolution for Scotland
:22:30. > :22:34.and a package on the table in the event of a no vote. If it is a yes
:22:35. > :22:37.vote, the UK cannot carry on as it is. There has to be a thinking of
:22:38. > :22:45.the cost occasional relationship between the three different patients
:22:46. > :22:51.to keep the UK together. -- the three different nations. In terms of
:22:52. > :22:55.scenario planning, we call it the rump UK, are you having chats
:22:56. > :23:00.behind-the-scenes, saying, Northern Ireland, England, Wales, we should
:23:01. > :23:06.get together? What is our name? We have not done that. None of that is
:23:07. > :23:08.going on. In my view I think it will be a no vote in Scotland. I think
:23:09. > :23:16.you -- it will be closer than be a no vote in Scotland. I think
:23:17. > :23:19.think. There will have to be change whatever happens. We have to have
:23:20. > :23:24.constitutional change whatever happens, yes or no, in Scotland. And
:23:25. > :23:30.Northern Irish minister recently said, we should beget in together
:23:31. > :23:34.with Wales and England and planning for all eventualities. Is he right?
:23:35. > :23:40.I do not clear at that stage. I do not see that we we -- I do not think
:23:41. > :23:45.we are at that stage. I do not think that we will be there. My thought
:23:46. > :23:49.is, what happens afterwards. If it is a no vote, how come we have a
:23:50. > :23:56.sustainable constitutional future so we are not closely talking about it?
:23:57. > :24:01.You know Alex Salmond, he is a wily politician, he could clinch it. He
:24:02. > :24:04.is, but the detail has been lacking in the yes campaign. They have got
:24:05. > :24:09.into an awful mess of a currency which they have not sorted out. The
:24:10. > :24:12.response was from Alex himself, when it was put for him that Scotland
:24:13. > :24:19.would not be part of sterling, he said, we will not take on the UK's
:24:20. > :24:23.debts. So they will not ever raise any money because they will default
:24:24. > :24:28.on their debts. Should they be allowed to keep the pound? They can
:24:29. > :24:31.keep their own pound, I do not think they should be in a union with
:24:32. > :24:37.sterling, when there are two different, to two different sets of
:24:38. > :24:43.budgets feeding into one bank. You either join the euro zone, all you
:24:44. > :24:49.have your own currency, or you have your own currency. Said George
:24:50. > :24:54.Osborne is bang on? When Ireland left, they did not suggest they
:24:55. > :24:55.should use sterling. And they paid their currency to sterling than 50
:24:56. > :25:00.years. To have one currency run their currency to sterling than 50
:25:01. > :25:06.two governments is an hurdle. If it is a no vote, and we get something
:25:07. > :25:14.like Devo Max for Scotland, what you want for Wales? What I would like to
:25:15. > :25:17.see at a UK level is there is an understanding that the model for
:25:18. > :25:23.devolution should be the same across the UK. Not the power is necessarily
:25:24. > :25:26.but the model. There is established mechanisms to make sure powers can
:25:27. > :25:30.be devolved in the future and there can be bettered communication
:25:31. > :25:36.between the governments of the UK. At the moment we meet every now and
:25:37. > :25:40.again but there is no real mechanism for us to meet on a regular basis.
:25:41. > :25:45.If it is going to be a no vote in Scotland, and then you want Silk,
:25:46. > :25:49.you better get Silk in the manifesto now. Yes. So you will ask you to get
:25:50. > :25:54.it in there? I have now. Yes. So you will ask you to get
:25:55. > :25:59.already. We will consider what our response to be as a party. Clearly
:26:00. > :26:03.there needs to be a good package of devolution on offer for the people
:26:04. > :26:08.of Wales. You say now is not the time for scenario planning, when
:26:09. > :26:12.this the time for the Scottish result? Once we know the results.
:26:13. > :26:20.The next morning? Will you ring David Cameron and say, what we do
:26:21. > :26:27.now? It looking to happen overnight. It will take a couple of years -- it
:26:28. > :26:30.is not going to happen overnight. It will take a couple of years to
:26:31. > :26:35.negotiate what happens. If the Scots to vote yes in September, they will
:26:36. > :26:40.not become an independent state in the following week. Back to the
:26:41. > :26:46.crystal ball we had at the beginning, 10-year time, what is
:26:47. > :26:50.your visit -- vision for Wales? An ever stronger economy, health
:26:51. > :26:54.service which is stable, which means we have to change it. An education
:26:55. > :27:01.which is the best in Europe and above all else, people being
:27:02. > :27:05.increasingly confident. We love to run ourselves down, perhaps less so
:27:06. > :27:12.than we have been. The young people are more confident than we were at a
:27:13. > :27:15.generation. But we are still there with this little germ, saying that
:27:16. > :27:23.we in Wales cannot be as good as anyone else. Of course we can. I was
:27:24. > :27:28.in America recently, I saw what we could do in promoting Wells, we have
:27:29. > :27:34.16, is meant -- we had 16 congressmen signed up to the
:27:35. > :27:40.supporting Wales caucus. Of course we can be the best, let's stop
:27:41. > :27:44.believing we can. -- start believing we can. That's it for this week's
:27:45. > :27:46.programme. Huw Edwards will be back next week, but in the meantime you
:27:47. > :27:50.can get in touch.