:00:00. > :00:07.Tonight on the Wales Report: Are victims of domestic violence in
:00:08. > :00:13.Wales being deprived of justice because of changes to legal aid?
:00:14. > :00:18.In a digital age, is our education failing to equip children with the
:00:19. > :00:20.vital skills they need? And why are thousands of people
:00:21. > :00:32.suffering from dementia fighting for the right diagnosis? Stay with us
:00:33. > :00:36.for the Wales Report. Good evening, welcome to the Wales
:00:37. > :00:40.Report. Our chance to look at the issues making an impact on lives in
:00:41. > :00:44.Wales and question some of those making the decisions. On tonight's
:00:45. > :00:47.programme: We start with the tens of thousands of people who are victims
:00:48. > :00:52.of domestic abuse every year in Wales. But a Welsh charity is
:00:53. > :00:55.warning that their plight could be made worse following changes to the
:00:56. > :00:59.legal aid system by the UK Government. Welsh Women's Aid is
:01:00. > :01:02.concerned many victims are now unable to access legal support as a
:01:03. > :01:05.result of government reforms and, as The Wales Report has discovered,
:01:06. > :01:11.many solicitors now don't even offer legal aid services. Mariclare Carey
:01:12. > :01:13.Jones reports now on how this is leaving some victims in vulnerable
:01:14. > :01:24.situations without access to the justice system.
:01:25. > :01:33.It is the one place people should feel safe, their own homes. But more
:01:34. > :01:41.than 50,000 women experience domestic abuse every year in Wales.
:01:42. > :01:46.For one woman from Carmarthenshire who wants to remain anonymous, that
:01:47. > :01:52.took the form of verbal and physical abuse I had 21-year-old son. He
:01:53. > :01:57.wanted money from us and we said no. He got aggressive and he
:01:58. > :02:04.pensioned me four times in the side of my head. She wants to take out a
:02:05. > :02:09.non-molestation order to stop person coming near her or her family but
:02:10. > :02:13.she can't afford the legal fees. Because of changes made to the legal
:02:14. > :02:16.aid system she is finding it virtually impossible to access
:02:17. > :02:21.financial help to pay for a solicitor. We have been able to
:02:22. > :02:25.access legal aid in the past but now the changes have come in and we
:02:26. > :02:30.haven't been able to access legal aid. We actually are in danger of
:02:31. > :02:34.other lives. Do you think you have been done by the system? We do feel
:02:35. > :02:40.we have been let down. There is no protection there for us. Financial
:02:41. > :02:45.cuts were made to the legal aid system and for victims of domestic
:02:46. > :02:50.violence evidence criteria was brought in. As a result, victims may
:02:51. > :02:53.now have to see their GP to ask for a letter saying they have received
:02:54. > :02:57.treatment following an attack. They may have to go to the police to
:02:58. > :03:03.obtain proof that has been an injunction against Derek -- alleged
:03:04. > :03:06.abuser. Victims, even though they may be vulnerable state, now have to
:03:07. > :03:14.prove they have a case before they can even qualify for legal aid. The
:03:15. > :03:20.aim of making changes the legal aid system was to reduce the annual
:03:21. > :03:24.justice bill in Wales and in England by ?350 million. The government
:03:25. > :03:29.promised victims of domestic abuse they were still have access to
:03:30. > :03:32.funds. We have been given figures by the charity Welsh women's aid which
:03:33. > :03:36.shows half of the women they serve eight have been unable to access
:03:37. > :03:43.help in the family courts since the changes have been made last April.
:03:44. > :03:47.It is a scary situation because to put a woman of accessing this help
:03:48. > :03:52.and advice is a really serious issue for her safety. Seven women a year
:03:53. > :03:59.die as a result of domestic abuse. It is life or death. According to
:04:00. > :04:03.the charity, victims are finding it hard because getting copies of the
:04:04. > :04:07.information they need can be difficult, time-consuming and
:04:08. > :04:10.costly. Their survey of more than 100 women shows two thirds of
:04:11. > :04:15.victims don't have the right evidence and of those, nearly 80%
:04:16. > :04:20.don't know who to speak to to get it. Because of the nature of
:04:21. > :04:28.domestic abuse in tears women were reports for various reasons, for
:04:29. > :04:37.safety. That made it difficult for many women to prove. I you OK to
:04:38. > :04:40.talk now? As a result of campaigning by groups like Women's Aid, some
:04:41. > :04:45.changes were introduced the legislation last month. The
:04:46. > :04:49.government has widened the types of evidence that are admissible. There
:04:50. > :04:56.are claims they don't go far enough. The system still needs
:04:57. > :05:01.clarification. It is such a complicated situation, there are so
:05:02. > :05:03.many factors involved, it is different for everyone. It is
:05:04. > :05:09.something we don't want to overcomplicate. We needed as good as
:05:10. > :05:13.we can so people can be safe. Obtaining evidence isn't the only
:05:14. > :05:17.barrier to financial support. Even if victims do qualify for legal aid
:05:18. > :05:22.they often have trouble finding a solicitor offering it. That is
:05:23. > :05:26.because the fees. It is have been cut in the justice reforms so many
:05:27. > :05:32.firms no longer want to take these cases as they can make more money
:05:33. > :05:34.doing private work. The Wales reporter contacted 20 solicitors
:05:35. > :05:39.firms from across Wales to see if they offered legal aid and a quarter
:05:40. > :05:43.of them told as they used to but stopped when the changes came in
:05:44. > :05:48.because they brought in to much bureaucracy for too little money. As
:05:49. > :05:53.a result we are told more victims are being forced to stand up in
:05:54. > :05:59.court to represent themselves. A stressful situation for people
:06:00. > :06:01.already feeling vulnerable. For a woman to represent herself in court
:06:02. > :06:09.that may mean she's coming face-to-face with her user. He might
:06:10. > :06:13.cross examiner. It is a renewed suffering for her to have to go
:06:14. > :06:19.through that course of control and emotional abuse again. That is a
:06:20. > :06:23.real concern for Elfyn Llwyd who sits on the Justice Committee at
:06:24. > :06:26.Westminster. He is one of several members have been raising concerns
:06:27. > :06:32.with the government since the changes to legal aid were still in
:06:33. > :06:36.the planning stages. People who are experts in the field told this time
:06:37. > :06:40.and time again when we were looking at the pre-legislative scrutiny
:06:41. > :06:44.stage of the bill this would happen. It is now happening, we need to
:06:45. > :06:49.address it and report the government to get them to look at it swiftly
:06:50. > :06:54.and properly. It is feared that unless that happens, more women in
:06:55. > :07:03.Wales will be left isolated and in danger. We are very vulnerable. It
:07:04. > :07:06.is a basic human rights that we should be protected in our own home.
:07:07. > :07:10.Mariclare Carey Jones reporting there. We asked Shailesh Vara, the
:07:11. > :07:16.UK Government minister responsible for legal aid, to appear but he
:07:17. > :07:26.declined. But the Ministry of Justice did tell us they've: they
:07:27. > :07:30.went on to say if that is evidence that people are suffering from
:07:31. > :07:33.domestic violence and not getting legal aid, they want to know about
:07:34. > :07:37.it. That is the statements. Joining me now is Sian James, Labour MP for
:07:38. > :07:45.Swansea East and former director of Welsh Women's Aid. Can we establish
:07:46. > :07:50.one principle in terms of financing. Should legally be immune from
:07:51. > :07:53.spending cuts? I don't think anything should be immune from
:07:54. > :07:59.spending cuts. We have to look at costs, that is good housekeeping. We
:08:00. > :08:04.looked at this issue when we were in government, the Labour government,
:08:05. > :08:09.but I think when we have issues of safety and your piece to camera did
:08:10. > :08:20.show issues to women but I am concerned about the issues of
:08:21. > :08:23.children's safety as well. We will come onto those issues let me deal
:08:24. > :08:31.quickly with the finance, do you think this ?2 billion bill for legal
:08:32. > :08:35.aid, which currently exists, is an acceptable one. If it needs to come
:08:36. > :08:39.down we can discuss where those cuts should be. A ?2 billion bill which
:08:40. > :08:45.is very high should that be affected? I am glad I am not the
:08:46. > :08:51.person less to decide on that. We need to make savings. If that is an
:08:52. > :08:56.issue of peoples personal safety and security, I think we have to look --
:08:57. > :09:01.think twice whether that is the place where we need to save money.
:09:02. > :09:06.That is not dodging the issue. No life is worth risking any amount of
:09:07. > :09:14.money for. Unfortunately, seven women a year do die and in the
:09:15. > :09:19.circumstances where they are in an abusive relationship and they don't
:09:20. > :09:22.get the support and help they need. What price can be put on that? When
:09:23. > :09:29.you look at the new system and the charm that fact women have two give
:09:30. > :09:33.certain elements of proof, referral from social services, they have
:09:34. > :09:36.added to the list in the past month because they realised some of the
:09:37. > :09:43.criteria was not sufficient. Ultimately, it is right that women
:09:44. > :09:47.of whoever that is affected should have to provide proof of it or do
:09:48. > :09:53.you think in some cases the proof isn't able to be offered? What used
:09:54. > :09:58.to be in the past, 20 solicitor,, you got advice and the solicitor
:09:59. > :10:07.informed you what evidence you needed. He collated that information
:10:08. > :10:10.for you. That is part of the service you were accessing. Now, if you
:10:11. > :10:17.can't access that solicitor not just because of cost, the figures show
:10:18. > :10:23.that about 33% of women have two travel between five to 15 miles away
:10:24. > :10:28.to find a solicitor that is offering legal aid. In Swansea East, my
:10:29. > :10:34.constituency, we don't have one solicitor that offers that service
:10:35. > :10:38.within my constituency. People love to travel into the next
:10:39. > :10:51.constituency. -- people have two travel. What if you were actually in
:10:52. > :10:55.Pembrokeshire or Carmarthenshire or mid Wales ) is a bigger challenge.
:10:56. > :11:00.What would you like to see happening? We know that lots of
:11:01. > :11:04.barristers and lawyers have been very unhappy with the cuts to legal
:11:05. > :11:07.aid and they have been staging industrial action which is something
:11:08. > :11:16.we have not been happening in that form before. What would you like to
:11:17. > :11:21.be seen happening now? What we do know is it is not working. What we
:11:22. > :11:28.need to be thinking about is that if a woman and her children need help,
:11:29. > :11:31.need support and needs access services that will help ensure their
:11:32. > :11:36.safety and the safety of their children, you shouldn't be recruited
:11:37. > :11:44.that precluded because you can't afford them or access them. -- you
:11:45. > :11:51.shouldn't be precluded because you can't afford them or access them. I
:11:52. > :11:55.will be campaigning. It is a matter for the future Labour government to
:11:56. > :12:01.look at. It is something I have been engaged in very heavily with the
:12:02. > :12:03.current government. Ever carry on making representations on this
:12:04. > :12:06.because I see the difference it is making to families in my
:12:07. > :12:14.constituents, the lack of access, the expense of trying to axe is the
:12:15. > :12:18.services and the danger, the knock-on effect it has on women and
:12:19. > :12:22.children where these matters are resolved. Thanks for coming in
:12:23. > :12:25.again. The extent to which our lives now
:12:26. > :12:28.depend on technology and digital skills is increasingly clear. There
:12:29. > :12:32.are countless government initiatives to boost digital skills and to
:12:33. > :12:36.encourage innovation. But is our education system doing its bit? Are
:12:37. > :12:40.schools equipping pupils with the skills they need to succeed in a
:12:41. > :12:42.digital world? Dr Tom Crick, a leading computer scientist from
:12:43. > :12:45.Cardiff Metropolitan University, believes children in Wales aren't
:12:46. > :12:48.learning the specialist IT skills needed to thrive in this sector or
:12:49. > :13:06.being taught how to utilise ground-breaking technology that's
:13:07. > :13:10.being made right here in Wales. It is a great success story in
:13:11. > :13:16.Wales. It is great to say made in Wales. You need to learn how to do
:13:17. > :13:22.stuff with it so if you put it in the hands of a child, you can open
:13:23. > :13:27.your eyes into a computing entails and the possibilities of things you
:13:28. > :13:30.can do with programming and creativity and the broader ecosystem
:13:31. > :13:38.of Electronics and making devices do interesting things. Learning how to
:13:39. > :13:43.programme should be viewed as modern literacy. The future economy of
:13:44. > :13:49.Wales is based on having the skills, workforce to attract the high-value
:13:50. > :13:56.industry. My concern from an educational perspective for Wales is
:13:57. > :14:01.perhaps we have missed a trick on little bit. There has been an
:14:02. > :14:06.accepted the ICT curriculum has not been fit for purpose for what we
:14:07. > :14:12.need now. We need to focus on things like programming, developing skills
:14:13. > :14:16.from early age, as well as aspects of competition of thinking and
:14:17. > :14:21.science. If this is in bedded in at primary school age, you do
:14:22. > :14:24.programming along with mathematics and the sciences, as you start to
:14:25. > :14:33.get through the key stages and when you start secondary it'll be normal.
:14:34. > :14:36.We have seen significant reform and change in England and Scotland and
:14:37. > :14:43.we know England has a new computing subject which is going to replace
:14:44. > :14:48.ICT. We are in the curriculum review of Wales. We're not going to have
:14:49. > :15:01.any significant change until September 2015. If we don't have a
:15:02. > :15:06.reform of the curriculum now and changing the broader perception of
:15:07. > :15:10.computing and technology and how important it is across all economic
:15:11. > :15:17.sectors, this could be a big problem for the future of Wales. That was
:15:18. > :15:20.Doctor Tom Crick there. Well, joining me now is David Jones,
:15:21. > :15:22.founder of software development company TigerBay and a member of the
:15:23. > :15:29.Welsh Government's information technology panel.
:15:30. > :15:32.When you look at the complex area that you work in and the complicated
:15:33. > :15:39.range of skills and talents needed to feed this injury -- institution
:15:40. > :15:47.of yours, are they any good place in Wales? The fundamental issue is the
:15:48. > :15:52.pace of change and the type of things we are doing now we were not
:15:53. > :15:58.doing five years ago. A few days ago Wales was able to attract a
:15:59. > :16:05.significantly better investor from the US. 150 jobs, ?40,000 the
:16:06. > :16:10.average salary. That industry did not exist a few years ago. What we
:16:11. > :16:12.must see from the perspective of the industry is greater peace of
:16:13. > :16:18.development from the education system. We also need volume but also
:16:19. > :16:23.pace. We are struggling to see that. I will come to pace in a moment and
:16:24. > :16:27.sugar content because it is not just the speed of what is being offered
:16:28. > :16:32.and developed, the content is important as well. We heard it was
:16:33. > :16:37.not fit for purpose, let us start with the content, what is it not
:16:38. > :16:43.delivering, what are schools and colleges not delivering in terms of
:16:44. > :16:48.knowledge? These skills that we have looked at, it has been shown that in
:16:49. > :16:52.Wales we need an additional 3000 skilled programmers each year at
:16:53. > :16:56.least for the next three years and then it will continue to grow. There
:16:57. > :17:02.is currently a big shortfall based on the growth we expect to see. That
:17:03. > :17:06.falls into two different areas. Many people will work on my industry and
:17:07. > :17:09.it will be programmers and we have to have better people coming out of
:17:10. > :17:15.university able to be programmers but we also need to see and Tom
:17:16. > :17:20.refers to it, greater digital literacy in areas outside of this
:17:21. > :17:29.industry. How young an age should that begin at? And the Rhondda
:17:30. > :17:35.Valley, they are teaching a new programme line which called Scratch
:17:36. > :17:39.for very young children. What we need children to understand is that
:17:40. > :17:43.the complex machinery surrounding all of us and our working lives can
:17:44. > :17:47.be controlled. It is that complexity that goes to the heart of
:17:48. > :17:53.computing. U2 is not too young to begin doing these things. Across
:17:54. > :18:05.Wales and A year to, how common is that? -- year two.
:18:06. > :18:08.It is patchy at the moment. Given that Michael Gove has
:18:09. > :18:13.announced in England he is pushing forward with changes to the ICT
:18:14. > :18:20.curriculum, those changes are coming, they have been mapped out,
:18:21. > :18:23.we are not in that position in Wales, why are slower? I think that
:18:24. > :18:26.the view of the government is that they want to take more time. Tom
:18:27. > :18:30.Crick has written a very good piece of work with colleagues that is
:18:31. > :18:35.available publicly but at the moment the government is reviewing that. It
:18:36. > :18:41.is easy if you are Michael Gove to assume that the problem is almost
:18:42. > :18:45.finished now. But I think Churchill said it is not the end, it is the
:18:46. > :18:49.beginning, and I think that Michael Gove will find that come September
:18:50. > :18:57.not all of the schools will be ready yet. He has sent a message out to
:18:58. > :19:02.industry, however. That message is very clear. You have said that not
:19:03. > :19:05.every school will be ready, but they are more advanced than we are here
:19:06. > :19:10.and I am wondering if you think there will be any suggestion that
:19:11. > :19:14.the Welsh Government is dragging its feet or other reasons, valid reasons
:19:15. > :19:21.for taking our time? It will be shown to be valid if we can build
:19:22. > :19:29.more sustainable machines that can take into consideration this deal is
:19:30. > :19:34.that we are talking about. Michael Gault initially talked about
:19:35. > :19:40.complacency and in Tom's report he talks about things that must move
:19:41. > :19:44.faster and that the concern of industry, unless move quickly you
:19:45. > :19:47.are destroyed and we want to see more of that coming out of the
:19:48. > :19:50.education system. Thank you for joining us, David.
:19:51. > :19:54.More than 45,000 people across Wales are grappling with the challenge of
:19:55. > :19:57.living with dementia. But as many as two thirds of dementia sufferers are
:19:58. > :20:00.also fighting to be officially diagnosed. Wales has the worst rates
:20:01. > :20:02.of diagnosis compared to England and Northern Ireland, meaning many
:20:03. > :20:07.sufferers are unable to access treatment and support when they need
:20:08. > :20:10.it most. In a moment we'll discuss what is being done to tackle this,
:20:11. > :20:13.but first, one couple share their first-hand experience of dementia
:20:14. > :20:22.and the consequences of waiting for a diagnosis.
:20:23. > :20:31.We have been living under this code for around ten years, I suppose, it
:20:32. > :20:35.was my wife who called me ten years ago that she was not feeling very
:20:36. > :20:41.well and she may have had a small stroke. It was three years later
:20:42. > :20:49.before we had the final diagnosis that she had an unusual feeling of
:20:50. > :20:54.Alzheimer's. Her site has gone. She has no spatial awareness at all and
:20:55. > :21:00.her hands cannot grip anything. Food becomes a problem. She has lost the
:21:01. > :21:05.ability to read and write. She has not left with very much, I am
:21:06. > :21:14.afraid. Meanwhile, the memory, well stated that the -- whilst that did
:21:15. > :21:23.not seem too bad to begin with, she has began to deteriorate. It is sad
:21:24. > :21:28.to see the way that she is totally dependent on me and the carers who
:21:29. > :21:36.looked after her. She has a shadow of her former sense. You see
:21:37. > :21:43.glimpses of the old iron but they are getting less and less. You do
:21:44. > :21:47.not know what is coming from day to day and that is what makes it
:21:48. > :21:51.difficult for families, not just for me but for the children,
:21:52. > :21:59.grandchildren and all of her friends.
:22:00. > :22:07.That was the experience of Alan and Anne Cummings of Cardiff. The chair
:22:08. > :22:14.of the Welsh Assembly's cross-party group Eluned Parrott joins me along
:22:15. > :22:21.with Professor Antony Bayer. Can I begin by asking you about the rates
:22:22. > :22:26.of diagnoses. What is your view on that and why is it happening? In
:22:27. > :22:32.many parts of Wales only around one third of people with dementia are
:22:33. > :22:36.receiving a diagnosis at all let alone barely enough for them to be
:22:37. > :22:40.able to plan and manage the care of themselves in a positive and
:22:41. > :22:45.proactive environment. We must think about how have the Northern Ireland
:22:46. > :22:51.Assembly government been able to transform their diagnosis rates and
:22:52. > :22:56.get up to 69% diagnosis as opposed to 69% undiagnosed. Do you know why
:22:57. > :23:04.that is the case? They put together a strategy to target belly diagnosis
:23:05. > :23:09.so they watch the stigma surrounding dementia because obviously it is a
:23:10. > :23:13.very frightening diagnosis to have, but we need people to feel that it
:23:14. > :23:17.is something they can speak to their doctor about because it is something
:23:18. > :23:23.that they want to discuss with family and friends.
:23:24. > :23:27.What is your view about that, Professor Antony Bayer, and the
:23:28. > :23:32.benefits of it? One of the problems is that there is a general view that
:23:33. > :23:36.the diagnosis is not always worth making because you cannot do much
:23:37. > :23:39.about it, we must firstly challenge that because the diagnosis can be
:23:40. > :23:44.made and then there are lots of positive things that can be done. In
:23:45. > :23:50.most cases the condition Redditch United but that would not mean that
:23:51. > :23:55.you cannot manage it well and it is certainly managing the condition
:23:56. > :23:59.over the years that helps not just the person with dementia but makes
:24:00. > :24:04.life easier for the family who have the burden of caring. What is the
:24:05. > :24:08.incentive for someone to come forward, for example, the relative
:24:09. > :24:12.with problems as they take the clear view that no matter what people's
:24:13. > :24:17.good intentions and they even get sympathy or care, actually it is a
:24:18. > :24:21.journey that they know well end in something very, very sad. They do
:24:22. > :24:28.not want to go there and told they have to. Planning ahead puts you in
:24:29. > :24:32.charge if you know what the cause of the problem is and it means that you
:24:33. > :24:37.know the right way to actually address particular problems and you
:24:38. > :24:42.can actually heard of many problems through planning. It gives you
:24:43. > :24:46.access to drugs treatment which are not true that this but can help
:24:47. > :24:52.major symptoms of many cases of dementia. It can help slow the
:24:53. > :24:57.progression of dementia. There is a long list of positive benefits from
:24:58. > :25:02.every diagnosis. What would you like to see the Welsh Government do as a
:25:03. > :25:06.matter of urgency when you see the kind of projected growth rate and
:25:07. > :25:09.people suffering from various forms of dementia, what could the Welsh
:25:10. > :25:15.Government do that it is not doing at the moment within the financial
:25:16. > :25:20.constraints that exists? I want to see that strategic approach to
:25:21. > :25:25.diagnosis, a focused effort to get the diagnosis rate up here in Wales.
:25:26. > :25:29.We know that in Cardiff, half of those with a dimension have been
:25:30. > :25:33.able to get a cis. We have to look at capacity on memory clinics but
:25:34. > :25:40.also the communication effort to get people to engage with their GP and
:25:41. > :25:43.discussed this matter. You mentioned Cardiff, but there are other health
:25:44. > :25:51.boards that are not doing as well. That is correct, some areas only
:25:52. > :25:55.have one third of diagnosis rates. That means they are far too many
:25:56. > :25:58.people living without the knowledge and support and the treatment that
:25:59. > :26:07.they need to help manage their condition positively. We have to
:26:08. > :26:10.face it, we have to help people and I think that is one of the most
:26:11. > :26:15.important challenges. What would you like to government to do? I would
:26:16. > :26:22.like them to give it a higher profile, there is a resource
:26:23. > :26:25.implication because if we are seeing that we need to diagnose many
:26:26. > :26:29.thousands of people who presently do not know what the cause of their
:26:30. > :26:34.problems is, someone is going to have to do that and pay for that, so
:26:35. > :26:39.there is a resource implication. On the other thing is that the
:26:40. > :26:44.diagnosis should lead to something, so just making it and raising this
:26:45. > :26:48.is the sticks, rubber-stamping someone with the correct label and
:26:49. > :26:54.leaving them to it is a completely pointless exercise. Finally, the
:26:55. > :27:00.viewers won't want to ask this question in terms of silence. What
:27:01. > :27:04.is the latest advice in terms of lifestyle things you should consider
:27:05. > :27:13.that will lessen your risk of developing dementia. Also as this
:27:14. > :27:21.getting to the stage where we may have potential cures and the future?
:27:22. > :27:26.Wales can be proud that it is leading the research and
:27:27. > :27:31.2-dimensional, it has world-renowned experts North Wales and Bangor and
:27:32. > :27:35.the south of Cardiff. Many of the things that we are familiar with in
:27:36. > :27:39.terms of reducing heart disease and stroke disease, it can reduce the
:27:40. > :27:45.risk of dementia, so what is good for the heart is good for the brain
:27:46. > :27:52.and perhaps things like stopping smoking, more exercise, alcohol in
:27:53. > :27:56.moderation, a healthy diet, all those things have been shown by
:27:57. > :28:08.research in Wales to actually reduce the risk of dimensional. -- the
:28:09. > :28:12.mention. -- dementia. That is the kind of things we can do to stop
:28:13. > :28:17.developing a rest of the illness. Thank you both for joining me.
:28:18. > :28:21.That's it for tonight's programme. We'll be back next week with a
:28:22. > :28:24.special debate ahead of the European elections. In the meantime, you can
:28:25. > :28:27.get in touch with us: Email us at: thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk and you can
:28:28. > :28:29.also join in the debate on twitter: @TheWalesReport.
:28:30. > :28:38.Thanks for watching. Good night. Nos da.