:00:12. > :00:18.Tonight, an audience with plenty of questions and a panel of politicians
:00:19. > :00:22.who think they have the answers. What does Europe mean to you, to
:00:23. > :00:36.Wales? Stay with us for a special debate. Welcome to a special edition
:00:37. > :00:39.of Wales Report. There is a week to go until the European elections when
:00:40. > :00:44.Wales will choose it for members of the European Parliament. The night,
:00:45. > :00:50.we will hear from the lead candidate of the fine main parties. They try
:00:51. > :00:53.to win your vote. There are other party standing of course and we will
:00:54. > :00:56.hear from them later in the programme. Our audience tonight
:00:57. > :01:00.represents a range of political views and many here have yet to
:01:01. > :01:04.decide who to back next week. So candidates, this is your chance to
:01:05. > :01:09.try to win those votes here and on the sofas at home. To kick off
:01:10. > :01:13.tonight, a 30 second pitch from each candidate setting out their party's
:01:14. > :01:17.views on Europe. I don't have a whistle but candidates, you have to
:01:18. > :01:20.stick to time. So, taking the parties in alphabetical order, let's
:01:21. > :01:26.start with Kay Swinburne from the Conservatives.
:01:27. > :01:30.The Welsh Conservative manifesto is based on having achieved a stronger
:01:31. > :01:35.economy at home, received renewed respect abroad and a promise to
:01:36. > :01:38.deliver real change in Europe. Only the Conservatives can change that
:01:39. > :01:42.relationship with Europe to deliver growth, jobs and financial
:01:43. > :01:47.security. We will give the British people a say in an in-out referendum
:01:48. > :01:55.by the end of 2012. Labour and the Liberal Democrats will not give you
:01:56. > :01:57.it. Reform, renegotiation... That is it, time is up.
:01:58. > :02:04.Thank you. Next is Labour's Derek Vaughan. We know 190,000 jobs in
:02:05. > :02:11.Wales depend on trade with the rest of the youth. That European Union.
:02:12. > :02:14.We'll will protect those jobs and look for opportunities to announce
:02:15. > :02:23.that enhance the number of jobs in Wales. Having negotiated an extra
:02:24. > :02:26.?2.1 billion of European structural friends over the next seven years,
:02:27. > :02:32.we will work with others to make sure... The butter has gone. I will
:02:33. > :02:38.have to cut you off there. Thanks. Next up is the Liberal
:02:39. > :02:42.Democrats' Alec Dauncey. Being in Europe means stronger, richer and
:02:43. > :02:47.more secure country in an insert in world. We have seen how fragile our
:02:48. > :02:52.economy can be and we need to get step into making Europe work. We
:02:53. > :02:57.have video the party in the UK that stood up against UKIP and the
:02:58. > :03:01.Eurosceptic media. We have the clearest vision of a modern,
:03:02. > :03:05.tolerant, progressive Wales that is in Britain and in Europe.
:03:06. > :03:10.Thank you. Let's hear now from Plaid Cymru's Jill Evans. This election is
:03:11. > :03:15.about who you can trust to put the needs, the hopes of the aspirations
:03:16. > :03:20.of Wales first. Plaid Cymru is answerable only to the people of
:03:21. > :03:23.Wales, we don't answer to London. In my 15 years in Parliament I have
:03:24. > :03:27.always put Wales first when I have acted and voted in the
:03:28. > :03:30.Parliamentary. You can trust Plaid Cymru to always do that.
:03:31. > :03:34.Thank you. And now it's UKIP's turn and Nathan Gill.
:03:35. > :03:38.Maybe ten to second is your chance to have your say on the European
:03:39. > :03:42.Union. We have never been asked if we want to be part of this European
:03:43. > :03:47.superstate that we're heading towards. We need to take back
:03:48. > :03:53.control of our borders. We need to take back control of the lawmaking,
:03:54. > :03:57.we know that 75% of laws are made in Brussels by unelected international
:03:58. > :04:04.bureaucrats. It is time for us to take back control of our country.
:04:05. > :04:11.They have made their pitches. You can join Internet's debate on social
:04:12. > :04:14.media. Our questions tonight have been sent in by you the viewers and
:04:15. > :04:18.our audience members here too. We've chosen the most popular themes and
:04:19. > :04:29.the panellists have not seen them in advance. Our first question tonight
:04:30. > :04:34.comes from David Nicholson. The European union started off as an
:04:35. > :04:38.economic community to stop wars and hopefully stop wars in Europe. It
:04:39. > :04:45.has moved onto a political union. Isn't it time for a referendum so
:04:46. > :04:51.the British people can have a say and what sort of Europe they want to
:04:52. > :04:55.be part of not be part. Particularly since Scotland be rooting for
:04:56. > :05:01.independence, that may be a hawk to hang a referendum on if Scotland
:05:02. > :05:10.leaves Britain. You want a referendum? You wanted ASAP? Yes.
:05:11. > :05:13.Derek Vaughan. The European Union was formed after the Second World
:05:14. > :05:18.War to stop the great powers of Europe going to war again. It was
:05:19. > :05:24.always the case that the intended to use economic means for political
:05:25. > :05:27.ends. To draw the economies of Europe closer and closer and closer
:05:28. > :05:34.together so we never went to war again. Would you give a referendum?
:05:35. > :05:39.You are right on that. We have clarified our position. The Labour
:05:40. > :05:42.Party is saying is that is further transfer of powers from any member
:05:43. > :05:48.state to the European Union, we would have an in-out referendum. So
:05:49. > :05:53.not now? Kay Swinburne. That is a historic chance to renegotiate our
:05:54. > :05:55.chance in the EU right now. Following the Eurozone crisis we
:05:56. > :06:01.have had an opportunity to see things need to change. At the member
:06:02. > :06:05.states agree with this. Reform is about to happen. We need to do that
:06:06. > :06:11.with the renegotiation as well and we think we can deliver it. We
:06:12. > :06:16.definitely need to have a referendum. It has been 40 years and
:06:17. > :06:23.none of us on the panel had a vote. But David Cameron has said we will
:06:24. > :06:28.get a referendum even if he doesn't renegotiate. We need a referendum by
:06:29. > :06:33.the end of 2017 and he has promised that. If we have a Conservative
:06:34. > :06:38.government, we will have one. If we don't, it'll be down to other
:06:39. > :06:42.parties. The first thing is, in government at the moment, a law has
:06:43. > :06:46.been passed to say that there will be a referendum if there is any
:06:47. > :06:50.further transfer of powers to Europe. The time for that is not
:06:51. > :07:00.now. We have seen how vulnerable an economy can be to shocks, club why
:07:01. > :07:03.not now? The Eurozone is in reform. It is not the right moment. It would
:07:04. > :07:12.be dangerous to the economy. Jill Evans. It is in Wales's insisted the
:07:13. > :07:17.part of the EU. All the statistics show that. It'll help as the build
:07:18. > :07:23.our economy, to strengthen it so we can stand on our own two feet. What
:07:24. > :07:28.concerns me is that the whole discussion about the referendum now
:07:29. > :07:33.has been going on for so long, that is creating uncertainty which will
:07:34. > :07:40.damage investment. So isn't the only way to move on to have one? What is
:07:41. > :07:46.needed is a lock on Wales 's future in the EU. We haven't had the debate
:07:47. > :07:49.on Wales and allow the people of Wales to decide. We haven't scored
:07:50. > :07:54.for a referendum that he need to be clear, if that is going to be a
:07:55. > :08:02.referendum it should be held sooner rather than later. Nathan Gill. We
:08:03. > :08:05.deserve a referendum, we can use this election next week as a
:08:06. > :08:17.referendum, if you want to. We have been offered it for years and years.
:08:18. > :08:23.We know it isn't going to happen. 2017, Twenty20, whatever. Labour is
:08:24. > :08:28.saying if there is renegotiation of further powers, the Lisbon Treaty
:08:29. > :08:33.has ratcheted clauses in it. They will be no further powers. The
:08:34. > :08:40.Labour Party will not give you a referendum. The gentleman down here
:08:41. > :08:44.in the suit. Powers are being transferred all the time. That isn't
:08:45. > :08:52.going to be another Maastricht Treaty. It is deceitful saying we
:08:53. > :08:59.will have to wait for this treaty. I don't agree. I do want a referendum
:09:00. > :09:02.now. How about you? All the main parties say we need to stay in
:09:03. > :09:08.Europe but we need to reform. What are three farmers not on the table,
:09:09. > :09:14.what will you say then? -- what if the form is not on the table. Angela
:09:15. > :09:21.Merkel addressed both houses of parliament and told them they will
:09:22. > :09:26.be no reform. You can't reform if you are outside of the European
:09:27. > :09:32.Union. Let's go to the lady in the second row. The decisions made in
:09:33. > :09:36.Europe affect us because we are part of Europe. We don't need to be in
:09:37. > :09:42.the European Union that we are part of Europe. Those decisions, we need
:09:43. > :09:56.to be part. We need to get those by stepping out of Europe will not help
:09:57. > :10:00.us. Let's go to the lady in the
:10:01. > :10:07.background, in the white jumper. If we pull out of Europe would we pull
:10:08. > :10:16.out of the European laws as a whole? Let's ask Kay Swinburne. If
:10:17. > :10:19.we pull out of Europe and we want to access the single market who will
:10:20. > :10:26.have to conform to all of the rules Europe make. There is a real danger
:10:27. > :10:32.here that when we talk about in-out, we need to know what we are voting
:10:33. > :10:36.in-out about. Those debates will be fully formed by 2017 and people will
:10:37. > :10:45.be no -- we'll know what they are voting. There are things that aren't
:10:46. > :10:56.within the EU mandate. First, the gentleman in the second back row. I
:10:57. > :11:00.think it is false to say that not straining Europe would mean less
:11:01. > :11:03.bureaucracy. I think it to mean more. If you need to trade with
:11:04. > :11:12.those countries you would have to conform to their rules so it is
:11:13. > :11:17.better to be inside. Sometimes you go on about 4.2 million jobs
:11:18. > :11:26.depending on tariff free trade. If we were not in the EU, if our
:11:27. > :11:29.exported that exporters wanted to exported the other part of Europe,
:11:30. > :11:36.they would have to conform to EU rules. 100% of British businesses
:11:37. > :11:42.have to comply with ridiculous rules. The Federation of Small
:11:43. > :11:50.Businessesd say it is costing small businesses ?124 billion a year. It
:11:51. > :11:56.talks about being a trade union and a political union, trade has to be
:11:57. > :12:06.political, the political union is the UK, it is how I know I can trade
:12:07. > :12:10.with Carlisle and Carrickfergus. Why would anybody in Germany want to
:12:11. > :12:17.trade with me if we pulled out of the EU? We trade with America, New
:12:18. > :12:21.Zealand, China. I am a lawyer, a lot of lawyers make a lot of money out
:12:22. > :12:32.of having special arrangements. You are a brave man! We should not have
:12:33. > :12:42.27 different systems. Our jobs trade -- depend on trade with EEF. It is
:12:43. > :12:47.ridiculous. One other point is, we are having this discussion about a
:12:48. > :12:52.referendum in the UK context, and ignoring what might happen in
:12:53. > :12:58.Scotland in September, and what will have to happen in Europe is a
:12:59. > :13:06.wholesale change in terms of our membership and where Wales is. If
:13:07. > :13:14.Scotland becomes independent, we have to make sure that we are not
:13:15. > :13:17.pushed to the sidelines. We are in a trading group where we have some
:13:18. > :13:24.political control over the bureaucracy, we get stuck in,
:13:25. > :13:32.political control over the have got less than 10%... We send
:13:33. > :13:38.any peace to Brussels, ministers to the Council of ministers. We get
:13:39. > :13:43.stuck in and we have an influence on the regulations, instead of being
:13:44. > :13:47.like Norway, on the outside, following the rules with nobody at
:13:48. > :13:52.the table will stop on a referendum, why not give people the choice? You
:13:53. > :14:02.always championed referenda, why not? It is built into law, there
:14:03. > :14:06.will be a referendum. It would be good if we had one, because we need
:14:07. > :14:17.to reach a conclusion I agree. I think we will win it. The three of
:14:18. > :14:23.you on the left have cancelled the question, would Plaid Cymru and UKIP
:14:24. > :14:29.have danced around it. We'll do provide a referendum? You do not
:14:30. > :14:34.have the power to, even if you do get in. Why are you pretending that
:14:35. > :14:41.you will? White are you pretending that you care when you cannot even
:14:42. > :14:44.offer it anyway? Do you think that the political parties now would be
:14:45. > :14:50.talking about immigration and Europe without the fact that UKIP has been
:14:51. > :14:57.rising in the polls? We have been banking the drum about this. We are
:14:58. > :15:01.forcing the agenda, we do not even have any MPs yet. We want a
:15:02. > :15:07.referendum immediately, if the people say no, so be it, but we
:15:08. > :15:13.trust your judgement. We want the people of Wales to decide their
:15:14. > :15:17.future. It is a UK government that would call a referendum, but what I
:15:18. > :15:22.want is an assurance that that debate in Wales would be on the
:15:23. > :15:29.benefits or otherwise to Wales, where Wales' future lies within the
:15:30. > :15:33.EU or outside it. What if the people in Wales vote differently from the
:15:34. > :15:41.people in England? We need to see clearly what the people of Wales
:15:42. > :15:48.want. The moment, it is a UK vote. Briefly, I want to go back to the
:15:49. > :15:52.audience. About the European elections and a referendum, what we
:15:53. > :15:59.are voting next week is for people to go to Brussels to represent Wales
:16:00. > :16:05.to the best of their ability. The lady in the front row. European
:16:06. > :16:08.money is a lifeline to some of the most formal ball people in Wales,
:16:09. > :16:16.what are your thoughts about whether a referendum would put some of those
:16:17. > :16:23.people at risk? Can we get a microphone to this gentleman? I am
:16:24. > :16:29.fairly relaxed about whether we have a referendum or not, but the way
:16:30. > :16:34.that the debate is going, it is extremely England centric, and UKIP
:16:35. > :16:41.centric, because of the London media. That would be damaging if a
:16:42. > :16:44.referendum were to be held. In that sense, it should not be held at the
:16:45. > :16:52.moment, because it would not be fair. Almost all of the media
:16:53. > :16:56.attention has been negative to UKIP, but we are still rising in the
:16:57. > :17:06.polls. I do not know what you are reading! If UKIP will let me get a
:17:07. > :17:10.word in edgeways! There is one thing a referendum cannot do, alter the
:17:11. > :17:15.facts of geography. We are always going to be part of Europe. We
:17:16. > :17:23.cannot move away from Europe, this is where we are. It is so important
:17:24. > :17:25.that we remain part of this large market right on our doorstep, for
:17:26. > :17:33.the benefit of so many working people here in Wales. Can we get a
:17:34. > :17:38.microphone to the lady in the front? As somebody who was in a
:17:39. > :17:44.position to have a say on our relationship in Europe back in 1975,
:17:45. > :17:49.what are the party is doing to ensure that the next generation get
:17:50. > :17:54.their say over Europe, listening to the panel, it is only the
:17:55. > :18:01.Conservatives who are promising that they will renegotiate and they will
:18:02. > :18:08.give us a referendum. I voted them for the conservative, as I always
:18:09. > :18:18.have. On the referendum, to go in? Yes. In terms of the referendum, it
:18:19. > :18:23.is critical we have a say, that people get trusted with that. It is
:18:24. > :18:28.automatically down to you, the people of Wales and the UK, to
:18:29. > :18:34.decide whether we are in or out, but I will be negotiating hard to make
:18:35. > :18:38.sure that the future EU that we vote on will reflect the type of EU that
:18:39. > :18:43.generates jobs for us here in Wales, across the UK, and financial
:18:44. > :18:48.security for us and in other countries across the EU. There is a
:18:49. > :18:54.lot of scope for renegotiation, we do it on each piece of legislation.
:18:55. > :18:58.The three of us here who have been there for the last five years have
:18:59. > :19:03.helped to do things like reformed the common fisheries policy, we have
:19:04. > :19:08.delivered a cut in red tape, there are things that we have done. I am
:19:09. > :19:15.proud of these things, leading a cut in red tape and bureaucracy in
:19:16. > :19:23.Brussels. We can renegotiate. Let's move to our second question, which
:19:24. > :19:27.comes from Laura Murton. If we did vote to leave the EU, given the
:19:28. > :19:33.level of EU funding that we benefit from, how would we cope without the
:19:34. > :19:42.access to the grants and funding? If you facts. Wales has received 3.5
:19:43. > :19:48.billion since 2000, and is set to receive 2 billion in the third block
:19:49. > :19:54.of money. You would get rid of all that money, Nathan. No, there is no
:19:55. > :20:00.such thing as EU money. It is not rocket science, it does not exist,
:20:01. > :20:04.it is our money which has been sent to Brussels, they have creamed off
:20:05. > :20:13.the lion 's share and have given us some of it back. Are you saying that
:20:14. > :20:19.if we left Europe, Wales would still get that 2 billion from a UK
:20:20. > :20:26.government? Absolutely. They would have more money, because we are
:20:27. > :20:30.spending ?55 million every day on Brussels, we are getting a small
:20:31. > :20:35.fraction back. We would defend and protect the people of Wales and make
:20:36. > :20:45.sure they did not lose out by us leaving the EU. In the whole time
:20:46. > :20:47.that I have been in the European Parliament, we have had to fight
:20:48. > :20:53.against the UK government to get this funding for Wales, because our
:20:54. > :21:00.economy is weak because the UK has never had a proper regional policy.
:21:01. > :21:06.Wales is underfunded, we know that. I remember a meeting with myself and
:21:07. > :21:11.my colleague, we saw the commission in Brussels in 2003 to show that the
:21:12. > :21:16.UK was taking the money that should have been coming to Wales. This
:21:17. > :21:26.man's party has been spending that money, the Labour Party. Let me read
:21:27. > :21:31.you what the First Minister said. This is a once in a generation
:21:32. > :21:34.opportunity to transform our economy and make a major difference to the
:21:35. > :21:41.lives of people in West Wales and the valleys. Have you done that? We
:21:42. > :21:49.have to go shake the money, it was myself and the Welsh government who
:21:50. > :21:55.negotiated an extra ?400 million. This money is vital. I go to any
:21:56. > :22:03.community in almost any part of Wales and you see large projects,
:22:04. > :22:07.childcare facilities... But we still qualify for the money, which proves
:22:08. > :22:11.they have not been transformed. We are starting to see the effect. The
:22:12. > :22:17.Welsh unemployment rate is the same as the UK's, when did that happen
:22:18. > :22:24.last? Youth unemployment in Wales is lower than the rest of the UK. We
:22:25. > :22:32.use European funding to fund jobs in Wales, 12,000 opportunities for
:22:33. > :22:39.young people. This despite this money, Wales is still one of the
:22:40. > :22:44.poorest monies -- areas of Europe. Why do our farmers have to be
:22:45. > :22:51.subsidised? They want a fair price for their produce and to have a
:22:52. > :22:56.proper business. We have been talking about the big issues, I am
:22:57. > :23:05.curious to see what the comment Neds have delivered in terms of tangible
:23:06. > :23:12.muscles. -- what the comment Neds. Over the past five years, I am
:23:13. > :23:17.curious to what they have been able to do for Welsh companies,
:23:18. > :23:20.industry, academic institutions, in terms of them helping to gain access
:23:21. > :23:32.to the European funding, the tangible results. A human to go,
:23:33. > :23:34.there was going to be a cut, ?400 million, we negotiated with the UK
:23:35. > :23:44.government and we have increased it. We will get an increase of ?150
:23:45. > :23:51.million. We have turned it around by ?550 million, extra to be spent on
:23:52. > :23:55.projects in Wales over the next seven years. How many politicians
:23:56. > :24:03.and say they have achieved that? Not many. Your party have been in charge
:24:04. > :24:09.for a short period in the assembly, as it been spent all wisely? The
:24:10. > :24:15.first round could have been spent better, a lot of people recognise
:24:16. > :24:19.that. It has to be spent in a way that has a lasting effect. Wales is
:24:20. > :24:24.a net beneficiary if you include the agricultural funding. It is partly
:24:25. > :24:29.because we do not raise as much taxes, but a lot of money throws --
:24:30. > :24:35.flows in through a variety of sources. The problem with the UKIP
:24:36. > :24:39.mind, there is no road map. It is easy to say we will leave, but the
:24:40. > :24:42.model that we would leave to and how the money would be spent and how
:24:43. > :24:47.much money would come to Wales and by what means, it is not something
:24:48. > :24:56.you can promise. Look at the state of Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain,
:24:57. > :25:03.we are all basket cases, and they are in this wonderful union that you
:25:04. > :25:09.love so much. Where are the jobs? Look at the unemployment in the
:25:10. > :25:14.Eurozone. We have the jobs. If I can adjust the original question of the
:25:15. > :25:19.structural funds and other media funding, or to mentally, there are
:25:20. > :25:23.lots of jobs that can be created using this money. It has been a
:25:24. > :25:29.shame that the money has not generated economic benefit to date,
:25:30. > :25:34.and with the first ministers have said it could have been spent
:25:35. > :25:37.better. Companies generate jobs, we have to trust our small and
:25:38. > :25:41.medium-sized companies to have that money to make sure that they can use
:25:42. > :25:45.their expertise to generate jobs and economic growth. That is where I
:25:46. > :25:52.would put the money, and it can happen. The funds are there, we
:25:53. > :25:58.dated use them wisely. What have I done to make a difference? I have
:25:59. > :26:02.cut red tape for small difference -- for small businesses, I have fought
:26:03. > :26:07.for more money in the research budget for Welsh universities, and I
:26:08. > :26:10.have been credited with over four region 40 jobs for a financial
:26:11. > :26:20.services firm in North Wales which only came here because I persuaded
:26:21. > :26:24.them to do so -- 440 jobs. We are not trusted with funds, because the
:26:25. > :26:28.people making the decision cannot risk their reputation. This funding
:26:29. > :26:35.has to be used to look at the strategy, what do we want the Wales
:26:36. > :26:40.we want to look like in 2020? You think it is wasted? What industries
:26:41. > :26:48.are we going to work in across Europe? That is really essential
:26:49. > :26:51.that is really essential matters by Plaid Cymru is calling on businesses
:26:52. > :26:55.in Wales to take the lead in deciding whether funding is spent
:26:56. > :26:58.from now on. We need to create the jobs and one of the things I have
:26:59. > :27:04.worked on in Parliament in recent months as in changing the public
:27:05. > :27:09.trick you and legislation. We only give half of our public contracts in
:27:10. > :27:18.Wales to Welsh companies. If we put that up to 75%... It is not, it is
:27:19. > :27:25.not. I learned give all of their contracts the Irish companies. You
:27:26. > :27:32.don't know the rules. They are not breaking the rules. Let's go to the
:27:33. > :27:37.gentleman over there. Why is it Wales have to go there with a
:27:38. > :27:44.begging bowl for the third time? That is the point I made to Derek
:27:45. > :27:47.Vaughan. There is a consensus in the first round we did not spend the
:27:48. > :27:55.money on projects which we should have. We funded 3000 small projects
:27:56. > :27:58.and did not have the impact. This time the offending 300 and lessons
:27:59. > :28:02.will be learned the next time. Over time, I am hoping the many we are
:28:03. > :28:09.spending will have this economic benefit. But we are poorer relations
:28:10. > :28:12.in Europe. We're going to go for a fourth begging bowl. Look at hers
:28:13. > :28:17.compared with other countries. You keep saying Wales is doing well,
:28:18. > :28:24.we're not doing well. How would you spend it? I would spend it in
:28:25. > :28:29.industry. Getting industries working together. They are just talking, it
:28:30. > :28:38.is just rhetoric. They don't trust the people of the country to vote.
:28:39. > :28:42.If we were out we would have two invest cash and rely on the UK
:28:43. > :28:50.Government. We would not be any better. Vote for a better British
:28:51. > :28:58.government, I would say to that. I have worked for sector groups. We
:28:59. > :29:11.have started thousands of businesses. It did start this is up
:29:12. > :29:15.-- thousands of businesses. Those are the kind of enterprise
:29:16. > :29:21.businesses we need. Many on the panel and in the audience, some of
:29:22. > :29:26.you have mentioned agriculture. There is a supplementary question
:29:27. > :29:31.specifically on agriculture. I wanted to ask, do you think this CAP
:29:32. > :29:41.reform has been a retrograde step and has done nothing to change the
:29:42. > :29:47.competitiveness for farmers? The CAP reform is a journey, it is gradually
:29:48. > :29:49.becoming greener. It is gradually creating the opportunity for
:29:50. > :29:54.environmental benefits to be paid for for farmers. The gradual shift
:29:55. > :30:01.from protection payments we had in the past towards paying farmers to
:30:02. > :30:06.be on the land with the single farm payment is moving in the right
:30:07. > :30:10.direction. It should be devolved. The actual implementation of it to
:30:11. > :30:15.the UK and to Wales. That is not something you talk about in terms of
:30:16. > :30:24.the European Parliament does. That is the right direction of travel.
:30:25. > :30:28.With 9 billion people to feed by 2015, do we need to be concentrating
:30:29. > :30:38.away from food production and more on the environment? Jill Evans on
:30:39. > :30:42.that. I think we recognise the central value of foods production
:30:43. > :30:47.and the central value of agriculture to our economy in Wales. I think
:30:48. > :30:53.they were part of the CAP reform that were good and bad. We
:30:54. > :30:56.negotiated in the interests of Welsh farmers, for instance, the
:30:57. > :31:01.transition period would be longer to help people to adjust. I think the
:31:02. > :31:06.problem is in Wales, we don't have a government that does recognise the
:31:07. > :31:10.value of agriculture and farming to our local communities, to our
:31:11. > :31:14.economy and to food production and to fighting climate change. In the
:31:15. > :31:22.future, as you say, that is going to become more important. You mean a
:31:23. > :31:28.Labour government here? I save the Labour government in Wales. Derek
:31:29. > :31:44.Vaughan, a bit controversial in giving the maximum from direct
:31:45. > :31:50.payments. When we talk about CAP, we have to remember waiters put in
:31:51. > :31:55.place. First of all, it was to stop food shortages. It was to protect
:31:56. > :32:06.the environment. It was to sustain rural communities. It was to provide
:32:07. > :32:11.income for farmers but there has two be looking after the low
:32:12. > :32:17.communities. We have got to sort these things out. Bruno communities
:32:18. > :32:26.or the farmers? They are being hit in the pocket. -- Bruno communities.
:32:27. > :32:29.The CAP reform was not a reform. For the first time, the European
:32:30. > :32:34.Parliament had a joint say and I think many of the French and German
:32:35. > :32:39.politicians really did fear their markets in terms of their farming
:32:40. > :32:43.communities and protected the producer organisations. It has
:32:44. > :32:48.become less market focused. We will fight very hard and my government is
:32:49. > :32:51.fighting hard for a three-year reform committee reviews we get that
:32:52. > :32:57.reform that was missed time round. We need to make sure the end of the
:32:58. > :33:04.milk quotas was a good start but there is a lot more market related
:33:05. > :33:08.reform the farmers and welcoming. I spent the morning in the
:33:09. > :33:16.Monmouthshire market. I have had a lot of discussion this morning.
:33:17. > :33:22.Nathan Gill on this question. They are trying to fight one size to fit
:33:23. > :33:27.all. Europe is very diverse. We have added low grounds and the wet
:33:28. > :33:31.grounds of Scotland. It is just ridiculous. Please tell me what is
:33:32. > :33:36.wrong with a springing back the power and the ability to create the
:33:37. > :33:42.funding for our farmers here in Britain based on what British
:33:43. > :33:57.farmers actually do. Thank you for that. Let's move on to our next
:33:58. > :34:04.question. Do you believe parties like UKIP and Britain First and
:34:05. > :34:18.masking the research agenda by exaggerating fears of immigration?
:34:19. > :34:23.Just make it clear, you picked up on the point of this morning of one of
:34:24. > :34:30.your prominent party members resigning. Making, is the direction
:34:31. > :34:37.of the party going is terrifying her stop it because it is a direct
:34:38. > :34:44.question, let's go straight to Nathan Gill. The media have been
:34:45. > :34:48.trying to say because certain individuals within our party have
:34:49. > :34:55.said racist things we are a racist party. If I was to use the same
:34:56. > :34:59.logic, you are a racist because Jeremy Clarkson said the end word.
:35:00. > :35:08.All BBC employee eyes must be racist. That is stupid. It is
:35:09. > :35:11.ridiculous. The point here is, bad apples you say as a party but this
:35:12. > :35:22.is a rising star according to Nigel Farage. I have never met her. So you
:35:23. > :35:28.are dismissing her? The reality is she is entitled to her views. Nine
:35:29. > :35:33.days before a very important election she has chosen to leave
:35:34. > :35:41.when quite frankly just a few weeks before she is on videos emphasising
:35:42. > :35:47.UKIP's immigration policy. So you are saying she is another bad
:35:48. > :35:57.apple? I have no idea what her intentions are. She has her agenda.
:35:58. > :36:03.Let's move on... She said something about one of the posters, saying it
:36:04. > :36:10.was racist. All of the other parties have joined together to attack UKIP.
:36:11. > :36:17.The leader of the cartel was on Newsnight... Let's move on to the
:36:18. > :36:24.broader point of immigration. We have made the point. Do you think
:36:25. > :36:32.there is to much immigration into Wales? I think the poster we are
:36:33. > :36:36.talking about, sorry, we do need to talk about it, implying they would
:36:37. > :36:44.be millions coming in for our jobs was so ridiculous you could only
:36:45. > :36:53.interpreted as scaremongering. People want to know that immigration
:36:54. > :37:05.needs to be managed. People... Would you put a cap on its? The way you
:37:06. > :37:11.manage a is if the European... We are electing people to go to the
:37:12. > :37:16.parliament there. Any cash at all and is it opened doors to
:37:17. > :37:26.everybody? If we have another country joining we have to manage
:37:27. > :37:30.the entry of the new country. This scaremongering has an ASCII edge to
:37:31. > :37:39.it. Let's start with the gentleman in the back. Elizabeth runs between
:37:40. > :37:49.UKIP and Jeremy Clarkson because UKIP is more and more people. Every
:37:50. > :37:58.time a closet racist falls out of his closet your party says it is
:37:59. > :38:01.just one or two people. I agree with this gentleman. It is not an
:38:02. > :38:09.individual act, it is a common agenda. You can see the posters and
:38:10. > :38:15.leaflets. It is racist. You are making the European election you and
:38:16. > :38:20.us. That you and them. This is just a racist agenda. It is the
:38:21. > :38:30.cleverest, racist party considering... The British public is
:38:31. > :38:42.more intelligent to expose your agenda. It is ridiculous. Your
:38:43. > :38:46.leaflets are distributed by Eastern European people in different parts
:38:47. > :38:50.of Cardiff. They are part of their society. You can no longer demonise
:38:51. > :38:57.them more and more with these posters and leaflets. We have got
:38:58. > :39:03.the least racist immigration policy of any party. All the other
:39:04. > :39:08.parties, they discriminate against people coming in from India, New
:39:09. > :39:20.Zealand, Canada and America regards the have opened the door to Eastern
:39:21. > :39:27.European people. Is your language inflammatory? It is exactly what
:39:28. > :39:30.they have done. I was in Merthyr Tydfil today and they were people
:39:31. > :39:38.there telling as children can't find work. Can I ask you about today's
:39:39. > :39:44.figures on immigration? 4.5 million people in this country who are
:39:45. > :39:50.working and foreign-born. A million of our youth are unemployed. Where
:39:51. > :39:53.is the sense in that? As a party you predicted the doors would be flung
:39:54. > :40:00.open and lows of the variance and Romanians would come in. Only a
:40:01. > :40:07.quarter came in. The prediction was wrong. 20,000 people came in when
:40:08. > :40:16.nine months of that period there were restricted. They predicted
:40:17. > :40:23.50,000 a year. When you are talking about three months, 20,000 came in.
:40:24. > :40:31.But these people were working. Derek Vaughan. Not everyone in UKIP is
:40:32. > :40:35.racist. I would say the views expressed are not just their views
:40:36. > :40:40.expressed by people at the bottom of the party. We have seen comments by
:40:41. > :40:49.Godfrey Bloom. We have another UKIP MEPs saying Muslim communities in
:40:50. > :40:56.the UK should sign a pledge. You go onto Twitter or Facebook and seen
:40:57. > :41:02.the really awful comments. Let's address to the big concerns. One is
:41:03. > :41:07.benefits. When you look at the figures, it is a tiny, tiny
:41:08. > :41:13.percentage of EU migrants who come to the UK. When you go further into
:41:14. > :41:23.the figures come EU migrants have put in 34% more into the UK economy
:41:24. > :41:29.than the takeout. They pay 34% more in taxes than claim benefits. One in
:41:30. > :41:34.seven businesses in the UK are started by a migrants. Immigration
:41:35. > :41:42.has benefited the UK economically. Others would say they can here and
:41:43. > :41:49.take jobs. I will be focusing -- are we focusing on the wrong people? If
:41:50. > :41:56.companies can indicate -- under Cats, those are the people we should
:41:57. > :41:59.be targeting. Let's have new restriction on agency workers. Let's
:42:00. > :42:09.target real people, the rogue employers. When you have been in
:42:10. > :42:14.power and all of the four main parties have been in power, you have
:42:15. > :42:20.not done anything about it, it has all gone on under your watch. Now
:42:21. > :42:25.you say, give me more time to rearrange it again. You cannot have
:42:26. > :42:32.it both ways. The lady with the scarf. I appreciate that you say it
:42:33. > :42:37.is a minority of UKIP candidates who have made inappropriate comments,
:42:38. > :42:42.but as a political party, you are accountable for your members.
:42:43. > :42:48.Secondly, the attempt by some parties to reduce the discussion of
:42:49. > :42:51.Europe down to a single issue, immigration, is reductive and
:42:52. > :42:57.unhelpful. Europe brings massive benefits, even more benefits to
:42:58. > :42:58.Wales, and we need to talk about the wider issues, rather than
:42:59. > :43:10.scaremonger. David Cameron has said he will get
:43:11. > :43:14.the cap down, it is still realistic to get it down into the tens of
:43:15. > :43:20.thousands. This is immigration as a whole. It is immigration from all
:43:21. > :43:29.countries. We have reduced it by a third since we took over in 2010. EU
:43:30. > :43:34.movement happens both ways. We have a large number of people who work
:43:35. > :43:39.across the EU from the UK. We have one of the most mobile workforces,
:43:40. > :43:43.especially within the professional services, that travel across to do
:43:44. > :43:48.their daily work. We have the need for stronger rules on new entrant
:43:49. > :43:52.countries. We have an opportunity to work with our partners to make sure
:43:53. > :43:56.that happens. We were not the only member state who had a large
:43:57. > :44:01.migration of people to work in our country when the new countries
:44:02. > :44:05.joined. Germany have had a larger proportion of movement than we have.
:44:06. > :44:09.We have to work with people to make sure there are stronger rules on new
:44:10. > :44:14.countries, that those who have a weaker economy have different rules
:44:15. > :44:18.for them to transition into the free movement. Free movement of people to
:44:19. > :44:24.work is something I support as opposed to free movement to claim,
:44:25. > :44:30.and that has been stopped. As a party, you want more doctors to come
:44:31. > :44:35.in, you want nurses, you are appealing for more immigration. We
:44:36. > :44:43.need them, we have 1000 fewer doctors per head in Wales than they
:44:44. > :44:48.do in England. There is concern about migration, it is based on the
:44:49. > :44:58.fear that has been created, it is not based on the evidence. Younger
:44:59. > :45:05.people come to work in Wales. Any cap? It is about communities in
:45:06. > :45:10.Wales, there are groups all over campaigning against local government
:45:11. > :45:14.plans because councils want to build thousands of new houses not based on
:45:15. > :45:21.local need. That is a real issue. There was a referendum recently. No
:45:22. > :45:26.cap at all, the more, the better? There is no evidence that migration
:45:27. > :45:31.has a different effect on our economy or communities, and while
:45:32. > :45:39.that is the case, no. Let's go to the audience. One of my concerns is
:45:40. > :45:45.that the sensationalist language used by UKIP to cover their
:45:46. > :45:52.frightening xenophobic agenda, the candidate here branded half of
:45:53. > :45:59.Europe as basket cases, it has... You said basket cases. Could you let
:46:00. > :46:03.me finish? It has distracted the argument of this whole election
:46:04. > :46:09.process and made it very UKIP centric. To the other candidates,
:46:10. > :46:14.does that worry too? The gentleman here. It is good to hear some common
:46:15. > :46:23.sense from the majority of the panel. If you look at immigration,
:46:24. > :46:29.it does not have any negative effects on Wales, it is beneficial
:46:30. > :46:34.on the whole for the UK economy. If you look at European funding, it is
:46:35. > :46:41.beneficial for Wales, if you look at the growing trade and export for
:46:42. > :46:45.Wales, it is beneficial. It is a right wing media that would rather
:46:46. > :46:49.throw up smoke and mirrors, debate about a referendum and immigration,
:46:50. > :46:57.let's address the real issues, there is a systemic failure. There is no
:46:58. > :47:02.doubt that immigration, Europe, it is a big concern and at the top of
:47:03. > :47:09.the agenda of so many people in this country. We need a referendum, but
:47:10. > :47:13.we need the facts to be properly put across, we do not want
:47:14. > :47:20.newspapers... We want a referendum on Europe. My question to the Labour
:47:21. > :47:29.candidate, why would you deny the people of Britain in this society a
:47:30. > :47:34.vote? We seem to have forgotten that Wales was developed largely through
:47:35. > :47:39.migration, from other parts of this country and from other countries.
:47:40. > :47:45.Around the 1900, 2000 Spanish people were living here, people were
:47:46. > :47:51.concerned they were taking jobs, speaking Spanish, but today, those
:47:52. > :47:59.families are integrated, doesn't the panel think that is what will happen
:48:00. > :48:01.to the newly arrived people now? What the gentleman said about people
:48:02. > :48:09.being concerned, there is another concern. Many of us know EU
:48:10. > :48:14.migrants, many of us have family members who have retired to Spain or
:48:15. > :48:20.whatever, EU migration is going on all the time, it is enriching to
:48:21. > :48:24.lots of people. Have none of you had somebody who is an EU migrant who
:48:25. > :48:31.has received one of these leaflets and started to think what is going
:48:32. > :48:37.on? We could go on, but thank you, we will leave the topic. There are
:48:38. > :48:43.other parties taking part in this election, so let's hear from them
:48:44. > :48:48.now, again in alphabetical order. We are standing for one reason only,
:48:49. > :48:51.to highlight the fact that the British people are going to be a
:48:52. > :48:56.minority in their own country within a few short decades. No other
:48:57. > :49:02.political party is talking or mentioning this issue whatsoever. It
:49:03. > :49:07.is paramount, it supersedes the other political issues, we are going
:49:08. > :49:12.to be a minority, we are standing in Scotland and Wales occurs we want to
:49:13. > :49:16.put this across to the British people and to use this opportunity
:49:17. > :49:22.and platform to inform them of this horrible future. The reason you
:49:23. > :49:27.should vote for us in this election is we will take Britain out of the
:49:28. > :49:32.European Union. We will not ask for a referendum, we will just say we
:49:33. > :49:39.are pulling out, because we are in there or unlawfully anyway. We will
:49:40. > :49:41.ban the burqa. It is offensive, the majority of Britain do not want
:49:42. > :49:46.them, but we are told we have to accept them. We will not accept
:49:47. > :49:50.them, we will provide British jobs for British workers are fair
:49:51. > :49:57.treatment for animals, we will deal with how well slaughter of animals,
:49:58. > :50:06.we will preserve the identity of the indigenous population of this land,
:50:07. > :50:14.and we will. Immigration. -- we will stop immigration. We will rebuild
:50:15. > :50:16.the country and get back to the infrastructure we need. You have
:50:17. > :50:21.heard fine talk from the other parties, but no fine action. Only we
:50:22. > :50:27.have the strength and courage to tackle the most pressing needs of
:50:28. > :50:32.our generation, climate change, the corporate takeover of democracy, the
:50:33. > :50:36.rights of women. We are part of the fourth-largest group in the European
:50:37. > :50:43.Parliament, the Tories of faith. With us, you get permanent lower
:50:44. > :50:46.fuel bills, positive action against climate change and action on
:50:47. > :50:51.equality. When people hear about our policies, ringing railways back into
:50:52. > :50:57.public hands, turning the minimum wage into a living wage, they vote
:50:58. > :51:04.for us. No to EU, just to workers' writes, the EU is an anti-democratic
:51:05. > :51:08.big business club, the power does not lie with this farce of a
:51:09. > :51:13.European Parliament, it lies with the unelected commission in
:51:14. > :51:18.Brussels, and with the unaccountable European Central Bank in Frankfurt,
:51:19. > :51:22.who, with the IMF, are enforcing these disastrous austerity and
:51:23. > :51:28.privatisation policies across the EU. They are making ordinary people
:51:29. > :51:34.pay the price for bailing out the bankers who caused the financial
:51:35. > :51:38.crash in the first place. Then, we have a series of disastrous
:51:39. > :51:42.decisions from the European Court of Justice, which have undermined
:51:43. > :51:48.people's terms and conditions and trade union agreements at work. We
:51:49. > :51:56.oppose the EU very much from the left. In this election, we are the
:51:57. > :52:03.only party which is both opposing the EU free-market privatisation and
:52:04. > :52:08.austerity genders and which is calling for Britain's immediate
:52:09. > :52:13.withdrawal from the EU. The EU has undermined and sought to replace our
:52:14. > :52:18.democracy and has dictated policies that have led to mass unemployment.
:52:19. > :52:25.Other parties will carry on the EU's austerity agenda. Only we are
:52:26. > :52:31.committed to bringing prosperity to communities across Wales. Central to
:52:32. > :52:33.doing this is investing in the jobs and public services needed to meet
:52:34. > :52:39.the requirements of the people of Wales. In or out of Europe. Matter,
:52:40. > :52:45.but we are looking for is a real change, not the kind of change that
:52:46. > :52:50.puts a different set of leaders in terms of the system, it is a system
:52:51. > :52:52.ruled by money and profit, and it causes massive insecurity, pitting
:52:53. > :52:58.people against each other, and bringing gross inequality. We stand
:52:59. > :53:03.for the kind of change that in Wales, Europe and the world calls
:53:04. > :53:11.upon people to opt for a free access to society without money or wages,
:53:12. > :53:15.based on democratic cooperation, it uses our resources rationally to
:53:16. > :53:20.feed, clothes, how's and give a decent secure life to everyone. It
:53:21. > :53:25.is not a utopia, it is a tangible prospect, and more and more people
:53:26. > :53:31.are seeing that. The other parties standing in this election.
:53:32. > :53:35.The next question, from Jonathan Kirkup. People are confused about
:53:36. > :53:47.who MEPs are and what they do. What are you doing? You have been in
:53:48. > :53:55.Brussels and Strasbourg for 15 years, what do you do? I am not
:53:56. > :53:59.surprised by what you say, because everybody would agree that we go
:54:00. > :54:10.around the country and people do not know how the Neds function within
:54:11. > :54:17.the European Union. That is despite having a website, we have a DVD of a
:54:18. > :54:22.week in the life of a MEP, but there is not enough attention given to it
:54:23. > :54:28.in the media. What do you do? When I was first elected, there was a
:54:29. > :54:34.full-time BBC Wales reporter, we got a lot of coverage about how those
:54:35. > :54:39.issues affected Wales. I would be willing to make myself available
:54:40. > :54:45.every week. Tell us, is it plenary sessions? The imagery of politicians
:54:46. > :54:52.travelling a lot, building up the air miles, what do you do? There is
:54:53. > :54:58.plenty of material that could be used to show what we do, the
:54:59. > :55:01.debates, and how it affects Wales. We can indicate with different
:55:02. > :55:11.organisations, schools, colleges send groups over. What do you do? We
:55:12. > :55:16.legislate. We are far more important than we ever were pre-Lisbon. We
:55:17. > :55:20.were told the Lisbon Treaty did not matter, but it made a huge
:55:21. > :55:28.difference, we are now elected to co-legislate, we amend legislation
:55:29. > :55:32.to make sure it represents what works in a proportionate way for
:55:33. > :55:38.Wales and the UK. Financial services was my area of expertise before I
:55:39. > :55:42.went to Parliament, so I have worked on the Eurozone crisis and on the
:55:43. > :55:49.financial services reform. That is what I have spent five years doing.
:55:50. > :55:54.We have to get everybody in. We are there Monday to Thursday, but when
:55:55. > :56:01.we come back on a Friday, Saturday and, sometimes, Sunday, we are
:56:02. > :56:05.travelling Wales, we are meeting organisations, we need a huge out of
:56:06. > :56:10.people, but it is difficult to get around Wales on your own, we are
:56:11. > :56:15.doing our best, we would like more help from the BDO and other
:56:16. > :56:20.organisations. Why do you want to be an NEP? It makes a difference. If
:56:21. > :56:27.you have got a pothole in the street, you complain about it. If
:56:28. > :56:34.the lorries that drive along those roads crossing borders are not safe
:56:35. > :56:37.for cyclists and pedestrians, it is not quite so clear in your mind, but
:56:38. > :56:44.it is desperately important, it can have tragic consequences. We have
:56:45. > :56:48.got three MEPs here, listening to their XP want to join them, because
:56:49. > :56:53.they are getting stuck into making the EU work, and that is what the
:56:54. > :57:00.job is. This election is about European issues. You want to abolish
:57:01. > :57:06.the institution? Absolutely. Do research yourselves. To not just
:57:07. > :57:13.listen to them. Find out for yourselves.
:57:14. > :57:25.The third best performing British two is a UKIP two. The commissioners
:57:26. > :57:36.make the rules, and watch how they vote, like that, nonstop. Nigel
:57:37. > :57:42.Farage's record is better than the other leaders. I would like to see
:57:43. > :57:50.UKIP come up with a policy that benefits Wales. What legislation
:57:51. > :58:01.have you made for the benefit of Wales? That you have enacted? We
:58:02. > :58:07.could go on. Our time is up, thank you to the panel. That is it, thank
:58:08. > :58:11.you to the panel and to the audience for a very lively hour. A full list
:58:12. > :58:16.of the parties and candidates standing next week is available
:58:17. > :58:22.online, you can go to the website. That is it for this week, let us
:58:23. > :58:29.know what you think about the issues raised tonight or anything else, you
:58:30. > :58:38.can e-mail us. You can join in the debate on social media. Huw Edwards
:58:39. > :58:43.is back next Wednesday. Until then, thank you for watching. Good night.