:00:20. > :00:24.Minister, Huw Lewis. And why is there such confusion amongst Welsh
:00:25. > :00:27.voters about the system of government we have? We will be
:00:28. > :00:30.talking to Rhodri Morgan and Lord Ellis about the legacy of the past
:00:31. > :00:42.15 years. Ellis about the legacy of the past
:00:43. > :00:46.Good evening. On tonight?s programme, educational
:00:47. > :00:52.standards in Wales have been the subject
:00:53. > :00:54.of much concern in recent years. Rankings in the international
:00:55. > :00:57.league tables, known as PISA, have slipped. Wales is the worst
:00:58. > :00:59.performing nation in the UK. And the latest in a long series
:01:00. > :01:02.of reports has concluded that not enough is being done to support
:01:03. > :01:04.teachers and that the Welsh government
:01:05. > :01:06.lacks a long-term vision for the future of education in
:01:07. > :01:08.Wales. We?ll be talking to the education
:01:09. > :01:11.minister, Huw Lewis, in a moment. But first, Professor
:01:12. > :01:12.Richard Dougherty, a former senior Welsh government
:01:13. > :01:14.adviser on education, He says that while certain policy
:01:15. > :01:18.initiatives begin with the best of intentions, the Welsh Government?s
:01:19. > :01:20.implementation of changes over the past 15 years has been
:01:21. > :01:39.inadequate. A major review of the school system
:01:40. > :01:47.says the Welsh government lacks a long-term vision. Wales is ranked
:01:48. > :01:50.43rd... When you dare to be different and stick to a Welsh of
:01:51. > :01:56.doing things bad reports can be hard to stomach. And now one of the Welsh
:01:57. > :02:01.government's was trusted education advisers has admitted that policy
:02:02. > :02:04.makers must try harder. We have to do things better and show that we
:02:05. > :02:10.are doing things better. Only then can we have the kind of education
:02:11. > :02:19.system we can be proud of. Since 1999 Welsh government made some
:02:20. > :02:24.major changes. Lee tables and SATS have been abolished, but the results
:02:25. > :02:28.have not matched the enthusiasm for change. In their rush to reinvent
:02:29. > :02:34.Welsh education, have the people in here tried to do too much, too soon?
:02:35. > :02:42.Much of the effort in the early years of devolution was about
:02:43. > :02:46.establishing the main planks of a new education system. There was less
:02:47. > :02:52.attention given band should have been to whether those planks were
:02:53. > :02:56.sound and whether they were affecting what was happening in
:02:57. > :03:00.schools. In 2004 the professor chaired a group that recommended the
:03:01. > :03:04.abolition of SATS. He said they should be replaced with a system
:03:05. > :03:10.where teachers assess their pupils. It was one of the Welsh
:03:11. > :03:14.government's biggest changes, but it is said that schools were not given
:03:15. > :03:20.enough support to make it work. They did not spend anything like enough
:03:21. > :03:26.money on supporting the new system, so it didn't work as well as it
:03:27. > :03:29.should have done. The inspector Prib -- provided a report on the new
:03:30. > :03:33.system fibres after it was initiated and they said that that was patchy.
:03:34. > :03:40.Of course it would be, if you just handed it over to schools. Taking on
:03:41. > :03:45.an entire education system was a big ask for This Place in 1999. Since
:03:46. > :03:50.then, many have wondered whether lack of expertise and focus within
:03:51. > :03:55.these walls has been a barrier to success, and are they still causing
:03:56. > :04:00.problems today? They did not have the long-term, strategic learning
:04:01. > :04:05.that has to be in place. It is only slowly getting there. That is one of
:04:06. > :04:10.the disappointments, that policies that should be fully in place by
:04:11. > :04:17.now, like a foundation phase, are still, as a recent report showed,
:04:18. > :04:21.working to some extent, but the policies are still evidently patchy.
:04:22. > :04:26.Changes to policy have been constant over the past 15 years. It is argued
:04:27. > :04:34.that support for teachers has been inconsistent. And that helping those
:04:35. > :04:40.in the classroom could be the key to better results. The countries with
:04:41. > :04:45.the highest performance have a high-quality and well supported
:04:46. > :04:48.teaching profession, who recruit some very able people and when they
:04:49. > :04:53.are in post they get was a training and support and they appreciate
:04:54. > :04:57.that. We have not had that in Wales. We need to put the quality of
:04:58. > :05:02.teaching and teacher is right at the top of the agenda. Since devolution,
:05:03. > :05:05.Wales has had quite a Labour education ministers. Each has had
:05:06. > :05:11.different ideas and some have been critical of their predecessors. It
:05:12. > :05:17.is argued that what has been lacking in general is an overall vision for
:05:18. > :05:21.Welsh education, one that everyone understands and is committed to.
:05:22. > :05:25.When schools have a sense of what they are trying to achieve, pupils,
:05:26. > :05:29.teachers, parents and everyone signs up, this is what we are for, this is
:05:30. > :05:33.what we're trying to do, let's go for it. That is a microcosm of what
:05:34. > :05:37.you'd be happening across system. But you do not just say that this is
:05:38. > :05:43.what you want to do. You go through with it and you keep people going,
:05:44. > :05:46.moving forward. We are doing well now but we need to do better, we
:05:47. > :05:52.need this sense of wanting to improve all the time.
:05:53. > :05:55.Earlier I spoke to the education minister Huw Lewis
:05:56. > :05:58.at a PISA conference at Cardiff?s City Hall.
:05:59. > :06:05.I started by asking him if there was a danger of us becoming too obsessed
:06:06. > :06:11.with measures such as PISA. I don't think so. PISA tells us some
:06:12. > :06:19.important things we need to absorb, lessons we need to learn. It gives
:06:20. > :06:23.us a global vision of where Wales stands and that is very important.
:06:24. > :06:28.We work in a global economy. It is important for the future of our
:06:29. > :06:32.young people. It gives us an insight into how Welsh education is
:06:33. > :06:36.delivering the skills that young people need as opposed to the
:06:37. > :06:42.knowledge that they need to accumulate, the skills they need to
:06:43. > :06:45.employ an order to succeed. Are you confident you are taking the
:06:46. > :06:51.measures that will improve our performance in these PISA league
:06:52. > :07:01.tables? How confident are you? We have made great steps over the last
:07:02. > :07:06.few years. We are also seeing great change within the system, the
:07:07. > :07:12.biggest reforms in Welsh educational history. And addressing, critically,
:07:13. > :07:18.the quality of teaching in the classroom. Everything comes back to
:07:19. > :07:22.that, quality of teaching. So many experts have said to us, whilst you
:07:23. > :07:26.concentrate on league tables, you are missing the main point, which is
:07:27. > :07:31.that if you have not got the right quality in the classroom, it is not
:07:32. > :07:35.going to happen. In practical terms, what are you doing to improve the
:07:36. > :07:39.quality of teaching, and are you being strong enough to counter some
:07:40. > :07:43.of the resistance that we have seen from some teaching unions to think
:07:44. > :07:48.you're having too much a go? There was a big contrast between the way
:07:49. > :07:53.that we do things in Wales and what is happening in England. We have
:07:54. > :07:58.gone to great efforts to ensure that we have a collaborative relationship
:07:59. > :08:04.with the work force. Just yesterday, I announced a new deal for teachers
:08:05. > :08:07.that marks a step change in a way that we do business, as regards the
:08:08. > :08:12.offer to teachers and professional support they would -- they receive.
:08:13. > :08:17.For too long, Welsh teachers have been the line on ending up in a
:08:18. > :08:21.school that was switched on to teacher training and professional
:08:22. > :08:27.development. If you landed in a good environment, that was lucky for you.
:08:28. > :08:32.If not, then you were not so lucky. We will be passing legislation in
:08:33. > :08:35.the autumn to make sure that we have a level playing field, that every
:08:36. > :08:40.school in Wales has access to world class training throughout their
:08:41. > :08:46.career. It has taken Labour in Wales 15 years to get to that point. Why?
:08:47. > :08:50.There probably is a fair criticism to say that in the early years of
:08:51. > :08:54.the Assembly there was a great deal of concentration upon, for instance,
:08:55. > :08:57.the bricks and mortar of the educational system, bringing it up
:08:58. > :09:02.to a decent standard, in that regard, and there should have been
:09:03. > :09:09.more attention in terms of building capacity within the system. Critical
:09:10. > :09:15.capacity. Teachers, at the coal face. And that is what this series
:09:16. > :09:20.of reforms and the conference today hinges upon. So you're trying to put
:09:21. > :09:26.right what your colleagues have done wrong in the past? This is a process
:09:27. > :09:29.of development. My eyes are fixed firmly on the future. A great deal
:09:30. > :09:34.of good has been done in the last 15 years. We are building an education
:09:35. > :09:42.system that has all the essential elements to be world eating. --
:09:43. > :09:51.world beating. In a global context. For that, we rely upon the quality
:09:52. > :09:55.of the workforce. When you talk about the investment and support,
:09:56. > :10:00.was a have said that the foundation phase has done of good wings. It is
:10:01. > :10:06.innovative, if his pioneering in many ways. And it has taken best
:10:07. > :10:12.practice. When it comes to an end, you fall off a cliff, then the
:10:13. > :10:15.classroom environment is in crisis. You have not provided resources to
:10:16. > :10:20.allow transition from the foundation phase into what we might call more
:10:21. > :10:29.formal learning. What are you doing about that? I dispute the use of the
:10:30. > :10:33.word "crisis", by the way. That kind of language does not help the
:10:34. > :10:38.debate. The transition from the foundation phase itself, right
:10:39. > :10:41.throughout the school career, if you like, other young person, the
:10:42. > :10:51.consistent messages coming through from outside observers. In my term
:10:52. > :10:57.of office I see my role as grappling with that central, distinctively
:10:58. > :11:04.Welsh problem. We have nuggets of excellence in the Welsh system. My
:11:05. > :11:08.job, as I see it, is to make sure that we dig them out and spread that
:11:09. > :11:15.best practice across the system as a whole. I was told, don't expect any
:11:16. > :11:20.major reforms from the Minister before the Assembly elections. Is
:11:21. > :11:25.that right? The reform process happens every day. The changes
:11:26. > :11:31.around professional development that I talked about, you will see the new
:11:32. > :11:34.regime clicking into place, the regulation and the laws behind
:11:35. > :11:39.that, coming into force this September. We are engaged every day
:11:40. > :11:45.in this agenda, and moving it forward. What else are you going to
:11:46. > :11:53.put in place before the 2016 elections? We are revising GCSEs by
:11:54. > :11:59.2015. We will take on board the lessons that we have learned from
:12:00. > :12:02.PISA. That will transmit skills to young people so that they get the
:12:03. > :12:07.best chances in life. Education systems are big, complicated beasts,
:12:08. > :12:16.and dealing with complexity takes time. There is not a day that goes
:12:17. > :12:19.by that we do not move forward. You mentioned the possibility of a gap
:12:20. > :12:26.year sabbatical for some pupils. Was that a moment of madness are good
:12:27. > :12:29.idea? We are not talking about a gap year in the sense that an older
:12:30. > :12:32.teenager might experience that sort of thing. Professor Graham Donaldson
:12:33. > :12:45.has looked at the curriculum, as a whole. He's looking at a bespoke,
:12:46. > :12:48.for Wales curriculum. The national curriculum is now very creaky.
:12:49. > :12:55.Within that, the professor is taking a look at ways in which there might
:12:56. > :13:02.be a point in the curriculum where young people can experience
:13:03. > :13:04.inspiration, if you like, about pursuing some personal enthusiasm
:13:05. > :13:14.which could be artistic or scientific, or committed to sport. I
:13:15. > :13:17.think we need to create a little bit more elbow room in terms of what
:13:18. > :13:25.schools are able to expose young people do, but also, critically, to
:13:26. > :13:29.draw in other partners. We have seen the arts Council for Wales stepping
:13:30. > :13:35.in with a new offer for schools in terms of creative people, artists,
:13:36. > :13:39.musicians and others going into schools to take those young people
:13:40. > :13:46.out of their day-to-day experience, to experience something new. So my
:13:47. > :13:51.talented 11-year-old, she wants to be an artist, she can out of school
:13:52. > :13:59.for one term and pursue some artistic interest. Is that what you
:14:00. > :14:04.are saying? It is conceivable. That is one way of putting it. The
:14:05. > :14:09.logistics are giving me a headache. Multiplying this across all the
:14:10. > :14:14.schools in Wales. We cannot do this without partners who are committed.
:14:15. > :14:22.The Welsh school system has its level of resources. Resources are
:14:23. > :14:31.not going to appear out of a clear blue sky to pay for new things in
:14:32. > :14:37.any great quantity. But for the parent watching, we are not doing
:14:38. > :14:42.well in this area, what we want is more concentration in the classroom,
:14:43. > :14:44.more focus in the classroom, and this minister is talking about
:14:45. > :14:51.taking people out of the classroom to pursue what we loosely call
:14:52. > :14:59.nonacademic interests. They can be very academic. Where is the logic
:15:00. > :15:04.there? This is about giving ourselves some elbow room to draw in
:15:05. > :15:08.partners that could lead our young people through experiences that can
:15:09. > :15:15.inspire them for life. We could be talking about very academic avenues
:15:16. > :15:19.for more able and talented children were universities are stepping up in
:15:20. > :15:23.a much more proactive role. We could be talking about the private sector
:15:24. > :15:28.and away they inspired the business people of the future. We will be
:15:29. > :15:32.talking to the sports Council, the arts Council, the museums and
:15:33. > :15:37.Galleries of Wales. Not just the wider public sector, but also the
:15:38. > :15:46.wider world of the private sector and communities. Back to a PISA
:15:47. > :15:53.thought, will the next set of results show an improvement in
:15:54. > :16:02.Wales? I am confident they will. The extent to which we will see an
:16:03. > :16:06.improvement depends on the choices, particularly lead professionals like
:16:07. > :16:11.the one present at the conference today, headteachers critically, the
:16:12. > :16:14.extent to which they choose to embrace this agenda around school to
:16:15. > :16:20.school working, peer-to-peer working, making should go the doors
:16:21. > :16:24.of their schools are flung open so that they can measure themselves
:16:25. > :16:31.against the very best ideas that are operating in many instances just
:16:32. > :16:32.down the road. There is excellence everywhere you turn in Wales, we
:16:33. > :16:37.just need to set it free. Has 15 years of devolution
:16:38. > :16:43.resulted in greater public No, according to the prominent
:16:44. > :16:49.economist and former Welsh He believes that a lack
:16:50. > :16:54.of understanding over devolved powers is leading to confusion among
:16:55. > :16:56.voters and that the Labour Party, which has been in power since 1999,
:16:57. > :17:00.needs to do more to re-invigorate We?ll be discussing this
:17:01. > :17:05.and discussing the past 15 years with the former
:17:06. > :17:08.First Minister Rhodri Morgan and the Assembly?s first Presiding Officer
:17:09. > :17:10.Lord Elis-Thomas in just a moment. But first,
:17:11. > :17:35.here?s Gerald Holtham?s assessment. There are lots of good things
:17:36. > :17:39.devolution has brought to Wales but it has not improved the involvement
:17:40. > :17:44.in the democratic process. Perhaps because it has missed out on
:17:45. > :17:50.political excitement. The tension and the close race, the drama and
:17:51. > :17:53.heated debate. Of all the parties in Wales, the Labour Party is the one
:17:54. > :17:56.that can best afford to start a debate and the one that is taken
:17:57. > :18:04.most seriously when it is in many parts of Wales, elections are almost
:18:05. > :18:08.a formality for the Labour Party, and as a result the public is left
:18:09. > :18:16.dosing. In its industrial heyday, the same used to be, what Aberdare
:18:17. > :18:22.things today, Wales thinks tomorrow. The valleys is Labour. I vote for
:18:23. > :18:28.them only because my parents did and this is a labour community. Because
:18:29. > :18:34.I have always done it, it would take a lot to discourage me to vote for
:18:35. > :18:42.somebody else. I vote Labour. Don't ask me who the name is. My parents
:18:43. > :18:50.were labour, I have always been Labour and my husband has always
:18:51. > :18:56.been Labour. It goes against the grain to vote Conservative. I've
:18:57. > :19:00.been usually vote Labour. Why? I have voted for Labour for years and
:19:01. > :19:07.I don't think there is anybody else. I do read the leaflet but I think it
:19:08. > :19:10.is just habit more than anything. Unlike their counterparts in
:19:11. > :19:15.London, some of our ministers are not so keen to appear on television
:19:16. > :19:18.and be interviewed. They are quite reluctant and that means they are
:19:19. > :19:24.less familiar to the voters, they are a little bit more remote. And
:19:25. > :19:29.even when they do speak, it is in the conventional political way,
:19:30. > :19:33.often defensive or not -- knocking other parties. There is never a hint
:19:34. > :19:38.of the internal debates or discussions so the public is
:19:39. > :19:40.inclined not to pay any attention. What Labour needs to generate public
:19:41. > :19:46.interest is a good argument with itself. Ministers should open up and
:19:47. > :19:52.speak candidly about the issues they face. After all, they don't have an
:19:53. > :19:57.easy job. Money is short. It would help them as well as the public if
:19:58. > :20:00.they were able to really talk about those issues and not pretend that
:20:01. > :20:03.everything in the garden is lovely. It is not as if they are facing a
:20:04. > :20:10.hostile press here who jump on everything. Good or bad, we don't
:20:11. > :20:17.have a backbench in Wales which is snapping up ministers' actions.
:20:18. > :20:23.There is no Cardiff equivalent to the dramatic revolt we sometimes see
:20:24. > :20:26.in Westminster. Without much genuine competition, Labour needs to be its
:20:27. > :20:35.own best rival. Instead of disguising or suppressing interparty
:20:36. > :20:36.debates, it needs to a them. Interesting politics attracts
:20:37. > :20:41.interesting personalities. Giving them room to an ash express
:20:42. > :20:46.themselves would interest people and make the Welsh government more
:20:47. > :20:49.exciting. Then you capture the public's attention and they can
:20:50. > :20:57.engage in debates about what we want for Wales.
:20:58. > :20:59.The economist and former government adviser Gerald Holtham.
:21:00. > :21:02.An ICM poll conducted this week for BBC Wales found that many are
:21:03. > :21:07.Roughly half of those surveyed knew the NHS was the responsibility
:21:08. > :21:13.43% said that the UK government was in charge of health in Wales.
:21:14. > :21:16.Understanding of education fared better -
:21:17. > :21:19.over half correctly said that the Welsh government was in charge.
:21:20. > :21:23.And overall the poll found that just 34% of people felt that devolution
:21:24. > :21:27.had led to an improvement in the way Wales is governed,
:21:28. > :21:33.with just under half saying it had not made much difference.
:21:34. > :21:36.Here to discuss all of this is former First Minister,
:21:37. > :21:38.Labour?s Rhodri Morgan, and the Assembly?s first Presiding Officer,
:21:39. > :21:51.Rhodri Morgan, do you consider there to be a big problem with levels of
:21:52. > :21:57.public in gauge when with politics in Wales? I think it is true
:21:58. > :22:01.throughout the Western world. People have lost that sense of civic duty
:22:02. > :22:06.that they had just after World War II when you had phenomenal levels of
:22:07. > :22:10.participation in elections. Everybody considered it their duty
:22:11. > :22:14.to go there and take their sons and daughters to make sure that they
:22:15. > :22:19.voted as well. That has gradually eroded over the years. Is it
:22:20. > :22:24.particularly a Welsh problem post-devolution? No. People might
:22:25. > :22:29.have had the ambition that devolution would restore a localised
:22:30. > :22:34.interest in Welsh politics in particular, but I don't think that
:22:35. > :22:36.has happened and I think it was unrealistic to expect evolution to
:22:37. > :22:45.create a surge of interest and participation because there is a
:22:46. > :22:51.dance going on between the media in Wales, who pretty much ignore, or
:22:52. > :22:55.the media that people read, the newspapers, by and large they are
:22:56. > :22:59.produced in London, they don't cover issues in Wales at all, and you just
:23:00. > :23:03.don't get that bouncing back between the public, the politicians and the
:23:04. > :23:10.media to create this virtuous circle of interest in politics. If we go
:23:11. > :23:15.back to 1999, there was a sense of expectation and hope and that we
:23:16. > :23:18.would have a new model of politics, not a confrontational chamber, a
:23:19. > :23:25.chamber where it was all to do with open debate and engaging people.
:23:26. > :23:29.What has gone wrong? I don't think anything has gone wrong. I think the
:23:30. > :23:36.people of Wales in every opportunity they have had have voted for the
:23:37. > :23:42.system in all the opinion polls to be maintained and developed. What we
:23:43. > :23:48.started with was a compromise. It was a constitutional mess. But then,
:23:49. > :23:52.had it not been a mess, if they had been clarity about the difference
:23:53. > :23:56.between the Welsh government and the National Assembly, between the
:23:57. > :24:00.Parliamentary side of things and the executive 's side, we probably would
:24:01. > :24:06.not have won the referendum. What we have seen is a progression in the
:24:07. > :24:12.deepening of democracy. Having said that, I do think that now is the
:24:13. > :24:17.time for a fresh communications drive by the National Assembly
:24:18. > :24:21.Commission alongside the Welsh government, the kind of thing we did
:24:22. > :24:24.before the last referendum when we did go out and try to get people to
:24:25. > :24:31.register to vote and stimulator interest. As regards to the business
:24:32. > :24:36.of being noncontroversial and a corporate democracy, that has gone
:24:37. > :24:39.as well because there are people, especially in my party, relish
:24:40. > :24:45.opposition. They don't seem to understand that politics is about
:24:46. > :24:48.taking responsibility. Labour also relishes being in power and
:24:49. > :24:53.preferably without sharing power because that is the kind of model we
:24:54. > :24:57.have seen. It was suggested in the film that it is Labour's
:24:58. > :25:00.responsibility to open up the debate, to engage with people,
:25:01. > :25:07.because it is in the powerful position it is in. Except you have
:25:08. > :25:11.got proportional representation. Had we not put that in the 1997
:25:12. > :25:18.referendum in the Labour White Paper model, we know that people outside
:25:19. > :25:23.of the valleys and the Labour voting areas solidly voted against because
:25:24. > :25:28.it would be Labour dominated for evermore. We finished up with a
:25:29. > :25:34.labour saying, we are going to handicap ourselves from winning the
:25:35. > :25:40.assembly. You have been in power for 15 years. But not always with a
:25:41. > :25:46.majority. When I took over, we were three seats short of eight majority.
:25:47. > :25:52.Then we had a coalition with the Liberal Democrats. We only had 28
:25:53. > :25:55.out of 60. I used to be terrified that I would have the same treatment
:25:56. > :26:01.as Alun Michael because the other parties could have got rid of me. We
:26:02. > :26:11.have only had tiny Labour majorities or coalition governments. Now you
:26:12. > :26:17.have this tiny majority, then the emphasis is on party discipline, not
:26:18. > :26:21.on let a thousand flowers bloom. 15 years after devolution got under
:26:22. > :26:25.way, we are in a position where a big chunk of people in Wales don't
:26:26. > :26:29.understand how powers are divided. What is that tell is about the way
:26:30. > :26:35.you have communicated how you go about your business? It is not all a
:26:36. > :26:39.media issue, surely. It is about politicians communicating the way
:26:40. > :26:45.they handle their own powers. People have a very patchy understanding of
:26:46. > :26:52.that. Because the constitution is still in adequately organised and
:26:53. > :26:56.expressed. What you need is what you have just described, you need
:26:57. > :27:00.transparency for the public to be able to make decisions about the
:27:01. > :27:04.quality of management of public services at the all Wales level.
:27:05. > :27:11.That is a responsibility for all of us. The time is ripe for a further
:27:12. > :27:15.serious attempt at communicating the system but also changing it. We
:27:16. > :27:19.still have to go to London for permission to legislate less than
:27:20. > :27:23.ten years ago so we have come a long way but there is no clarity. You
:27:24. > :27:28.cannot have a democratic system which is effective unless you have
:27:29. > :27:34.transparency and unless it is understood. That is a great defect.
:27:35. > :27:37.The last word. Clarity and how important it is to achieve a
:27:38. > :27:40.position where people have a far better understanding of what they
:27:41. > :27:47.are voting for and the is people actually handle. Gerald Holtham was
:27:48. > :27:58.saying that we need more theatre, if you like, in the assembly. It is not
:27:59. > :28:04.easy to do. We had too much theatre in your time, especially at the
:28:05. > :28:07.beginning. In a way, you look at what has happened in Scotland with
:28:08. > :28:13.the SNP has managed to also supplant Labour as the default option. If
:28:14. > :28:18.they can't think who to vote for, they will vote for the SNP. In
:28:19. > :28:23.Wales, they will vote Labour. But there is an obligation to have more
:28:24. > :28:26.exciting debates and so on. But the other parties have got to play ball
:28:27. > :28:29.as well and the media have got to play ball as well.
:28:30. > :28:31.That?s it for this week?s programme. We?ll be back next Wednesday.
:28:32. > :28:34.In the meantime, you can get in touch with us
:28:35. > :28:38.about the issues discussed tonight or indeed anything else.