:00:15. > :00:16.The Scottish referendum is over and the big question has finally
:00:17. > :00:20.But what does that mean for devolution in the UK?
:00:21. > :00:22.Here in Wales, there are many questions that will affect all
:00:23. > :00:27.Tonight we are looking to Wales?s future with a selected audience,
:00:28. > :00:29.who have questions for our panel of political leaders.
:00:30. > :00:37.Stay with us for some answers on a special Wales Report.
:00:38. > :00:42.Good evening, and welcome to a special edition of the Wales Report.
:00:43. > :00:44.It?s been a momentous week ? Scotland has cast its vote
:00:45. > :00:49.The First Minister, Alex Salmond, has resigned as negotiations with
:00:50. > :00:53.But despite the No vote, it seems the status quo will not survive.
:00:54. > :00:56.Further devolution is on the cards for Scotland, for Wales
:00:57. > :00:59.So, change is coming but what does all
:01:00. > :01:04.Well, tonight?s audience is made up of people who work in Welsh public
:01:05. > :01:07.life ? in healthcare, education, those who deliver your local
:01:08. > :01:09.services and they want answers from our panel of leading politicians.
:01:10. > :01:11.With us tonight is the Welsh Government Finance Minister,
:01:12. > :01:14.Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies.
:01:15. > :01:18.Kirsty Williams is the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Leanne
:01:19. > :01:32.Before we kick off tonight?s debate ? remember you too can have
:01:33. > :01:34.your say on social media using the hashtag - #thewalesreport.
:01:35. > :01:37.Our first question tonight is from Jessica Blair from
:01:38. > :02:40.I think this is the one and only goal we should be focusing on.
:02:41. > :02:46.Economic reform is needed. That package of economic members has to
:02:47. > :02:50.be correct and write for Wales. So that our democracy can use those
:02:51. > :02:54.powers to increase our economic performance and prosperity across
:02:55. > :02:57.Wales. I think the decision about reserve powers has already been
:02:58. > :03:07.taken by the court. Irrespective of where I sit on the
:03:08. > :03:11.legislation referred on the decision made, we will have a referred powers
:03:12. > :03:15.model, I have no doubt about it. Obviously it is time to get the
:03:16. > :03:19.measures in place and pass the necessary, regulations, legislation
:03:20. > :03:23.to allow it to be conferred back to the acceptably. Under the powers it
:03:24. > :03:27.is what Scotland has already. It clears it up and makes sure everyone
:03:28. > :03:32.knows where the responsibility lies. Kirsty Williams, what powers should
:03:33. > :03:36.be coming to Wales Like you, Jess, I think we have to have something that
:03:37. > :03:39.is clear and permanent. I think it is time to stop tinkering and
:03:40. > :03:45.constantly going back to this issue every few years. We need a permanent
:03:46. > :03:48.settlement that allows the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government to get
:03:49. > :03:51.on with delivering decent public services to Wales. To do, that we
:03:52. > :03:56.have to have some form of fiscal devolution. The ability for the
:03:57. > :04:01.Welsh Government to raise a sum of the expenditure that then goes it
:04:02. > :04:06.then goes on to spend on public services. I think that leaves to
:04:07. > :04:13.increasing accountability but gives us the tools that if we reap it
:04:14. > :04:16.back, that money goes to Wales, rather than handing it back to
:04:17. > :04:21.London and then begging to London. We should have clear recommendation
:04:22. > :04:24.abouts policing, youth justice, energy consensus, I think those
:04:25. > :04:28.things should be decided by the Welsh Government and scrutinised by
:04:29. > :04:33.the Welsh Assembly. We will be talking about a commission, part 1
:04:34. > :04:38.talking about financial powers, part 2, talking about extra powers like
:04:39. > :04:42.youth justice and policing and extra Assembly Members. Let's go to you.
:04:43. > :04:45.What powers does Wales need? If I can start by saying I spent sometime
:04:46. > :04:48.in Scotland during the referendum campaign. What is very different
:04:49. > :04:54.about the debate we are having here in Wales about the kind of powers
:04:55. > :05:02.that we want, its very technical, it is jargon, it's boring, to be honest
:05:03. > :05:05.with you H it contrasts very -- to. To be honest with you, and could
:05:06. > :05:09.contrasts with the debate people have been having in Scotland and why
:05:10. > :05:13.they want independence, so they can have a different kind of politics.
:05:14. > :05:16.For me the starting point should be about looking at the problems we
:05:17. > :05:21.have and what powers we need to be able to solve the problems. What do
:05:22. > :05:24.we need? Well, if we take that starting point, we know there are
:05:25. > :05:27.many people struggling in Wales at the moment to make ends meet.
:05:28. > :05:33.Austerity is pushing people towards food banks. We have already had -
:05:34. > :05:37.this weekend, news of somebody dying in an ambulance, because there isn't
:05:38. > :05:41.enough money, frankly, in the NHS. Now, we can either carry on like
:05:42. > :05:46.this, year-on-year, with the gap between what we need to provide and
:05:47. > :05:52.the money we get growing, because of this austerity agenda from the
:05:53. > :05:58.Westminster establishment. Or we can think long term about the kind of
:05:59. > :06:04.infrastructure we would need to be able to properly fund. Is that what
:06:05. > :06:09.you need more handouts and grants? No, I need to get to the point where
:06:10. > :06:12.we can stand on our own two feet. Part of the debate in Scotland was
:06:13. > :06:15.about the future of the NHS. And while the NHS and health is
:06:16. > :06:19.devolved, it is true to say, that the financing of the NHS is not. And
:06:20. > :06:24.if privatisation and patient charging and austerity continues in
:06:25. > :06:28.England, there will be a knock-on effect, through the Barnett Formula
:06:29. > :06:32.on the amount we have to spend in-house. These are the questions we
:06:33. > :06:35.should be debating, not the technicalities we have had so far.
:06:36. > :06:37.Right, you are in power in the Assembly. What powers are you
:06:38. > :06:42.desperate for as a Government? is the vision? What do you want it
:06:43. > :06:47.make Wales work? -- to is the vision? What do you want it
:06:48. > :06:51.work. We have a strong call, supported by all parties
:06:52. > :06:52.work. We have a strong call, affected in the Silk Commission,
:06:53. > :06:59.one, in terms of financial affected in the Silk Commission,
:07:00. > :06:59.which we all said today that we need but
:07:00. > :07:06.which we all said today that we need is about making the decisions
:07:07. > :07:08.which we all said today that we need decisions made in Wales. We clearly
:07:09. > :07:12.nooe need a settlement in terms of our financial powers. I have to say
:07:13. > :07:15.what is important is we come through our financial powers. I have to say
:07:16. > :07:19.the post-Scotland referendum debate stronger, as a nation, in Wales,
:07:20. > :07:22.that we come through this saying - you know, we already have done a lot
:07:23. > :07:26.of work, we have you know, we already have done a lot
:07:27. > :07:31.result of devolution. Let's make sure that we have the powers - and
:07:32. > :07:35.it is the power to improve the prospects for our young people.
:07:36. > :07:40.Well, with respect, which powers do you need? Do you want income tax
:07:41. > :07:44.with no shackles? Would you, as in charge of finances here, would you
:07:45. > :07:48.love to be controlling income tax in Wales? Would that make a difference?
:07:49. > :07:53.? Clearly we are progressing through Westminster, a very important piece
:07:54. > :07:56.of legislation as Andrew has said, a very important piece of legislation
:07:57. > :07:58.which is actually going to start devolving taxes from... You want
:07:59. > :08:36.that. devolving taxes from... You want
:08:37. > :08:37.get fair funding, if we get a referendum in the Silk Commission.
:08:38. > :08:41.You would rather not referendum in the Silk Commission.
:08:42. > :08:46.know the tax base in Wales isn't great. There are
:08:47. > :08:47.know the tax base in Wales isn't of risks in terms of tax devolution.
:08:48. > :08:50.We have already taken of risks in terms of tax devolution.
:08:51. > :08:56.tax... You don't want it. of risks in terms of tax devolution.
:08:57. > :08:58.fair funding f we don't, then, of course, 75% of our money for Wales
:08:59. > :09:01.would still course, 75% of our money for Wales
:09:02. > :09:07.fair at the moment. Of course we will move on. With respect... If we
:09:08. > :09:11.get funding. This is why people are switched off by the debate. I'm
:09:12. > :09:16.asking you, do you want income tax or not. You are in charge of Wales's
:09:17. > :09:18.asking you, do you want income tax finances, you are the woman with
:09:19. > :09:24.your finger on the pulse, do you want income tax? Can I say... Yes or
:09:25. > :09:27.no. If we don't get a better financial settlement, we will be
:09:28. > :09:32.disadvantaged by having income tax-raising powers. It is too risky
:09:33. > :09:35.at the moment. If we do, then, of course as the people of Wales, they
:09:36. > :09:37.will then have their say in a referendum, which is what it
:09:38. > :09:39.will then have their say in a be. A few comments from the back
:09:40. > :09:42.row. be. A few comments from the back
:09:43. > :09:45.On health matters and I know we are moving on to finance but if the call
:09:46. > :09:50.is for more powers for Wales but you using the powers you already
:09:51. > :09:51.have? We have a public health bill working its way through the Assembly
:09:52. > :09:55.at the moment which had working its way through the Assembly
:09:56. > :09:59.ambitions at the start, health in all policies and it is being diluted
:10:00. > :10:00.down. You have a real opportunity with the powers you
:10:01. > :10:02.down. You have a real opportunity some legislation that will really
:10:03. > :10:05.make a difference to some legislation that will really
:10:06. > :10:09.Wales, both in health and otherwise and you seem shy to use the powers
:10:10. > :10:15.you have currently got. Why do you need more? Andrew RT Davies? It is a
:10:16. > :10:18.good point. We have a backs et of responsibilities and powers and
:10:19. > :10:23.legislative compassities transferred over the last 15 years. As I said,
:10:24. > :10:26.the beall and end all for me is making sure the financial settlement
:10:27. > :10:31.is krevenlingt the financial settlement is a settlement that will
:10:32. > :10:36.give us economic prosperity and by doing that, you remain competitive
:10:37. > :10:40.and that's about lowering tax. I think there is a moment here where
:10:41. > :10:45.we could put together a package that will last, rather than make do and
:10:46. > :10:48.mend, the approach we have had over the last 15 years. It is mentioned
:10:49. > :10:51.already the tax powers that are before Parliament are still subject
:10:52. > :10:54.to a referendum. We hear England will get extra devolution, not
:10:55. > :10:59.subject to a referendum, subject to a vote in a general election. Why
:11:00. > :11:06.does Wales constantly have to be... Second class. Puts its ambitions
:11:07. > :11:09.before constant barriers and referendums. Have a conversation,
:11:10. > :11:14.come up with something that lasts and vote on it in an election, not
:11:15. > :11:17.consfantly forcing us to go through referenda.
:11:18. > :11:22.Are we getting the leadership 234 Wales? The referendum is on the
:11:23. > :11:26.table for the powers devolved to Wales? Why do we have to go through
:11:27. > :11:29.that process, given the fact that the powers for Scotland and England
:11:30. > :11:33.are more advanced and not subject to a referendum. It seems the game has
:11:34. > :11:36.changed since the powers were outlined. It will be interesting to
:11:37. > :11:41.see if we have changed with it. It is important that we put on record
:11:42. > :11:44.tonight that we are ?300 million under-funded in Wales and everyone
:11:45. > :11:48.recognised. Jerry hull ton did an important piece of work which the
:11:49. > :11:54.Welsh Government asked him to do. Independently, he said, "You are
:11:55. > :11:57.underfunded ""Unless we deal with that under-funding and make sure
:11:58. > :12:00.tlat Westminster Government - and I think we would all agree here
:12:01. > :12:05.tonight, all parties - we need to get that addressed. We need to get
:12:06. > :12:09.that ?350 million, and put a floor on Barnett. I'm sorry, we have to
:12:10. > :12:14.say that now because it is quite true, as Richard said, we have to
:12:15. > :12:18.use the powers we have. This is crumbs off the table. Would you
:12:19. > :12:21.accept the basic central principle that we should be equal to Scotland
:12:22. > :12:25.in this? There should be nothing that comes to Wales that is below
:12:26. > :12:30.what is being offered to Scot snrand give some leadership on this now. I
:12:31. > :12:33.know the leader isn't here today. -- Scotland.
:12:34. > :12:37.This is the third panel debate we have taken part in, as party
:12:38. > :12:42.leaders, and we haven't had the opportunity to hear from... Show
:12:43. > :12:45.some leadership. It is essential, isn't t Leanne that we get the
:12:46. > :12:49.change that Westminster accepts that Wales has to have the devolution.
:12:50. > :12:53.You couldn't deliver that. Can you just respond on this, because there
:12:54. > :12:57.has been a lot of questions. Carwyn Jones hasn't been on any of these
:12:58. > :13:03.panels, if you want to address that point? I'm the Finance Minister for
:13:04. > :13:08.Wales responsible for making sure we take through these particular
:13:09. > :13:12.powers. It is very important, the quality. Don't let's use this
:13:13. > :13:16.opportunity, Leanne, I would say, to divide. Let us show and I think
:13:17. > :13:20.Kirsty Williams has said this on all the panels, let's show where we are
:13:21. > :13:24.united in Wales. Outside of Wales they will not listen to us unless
:13:25. > :13:27.they see Wales is speaking with a united voice. And people know what
:13:28. > :13:33.the Welsh want. That's the point. And we have no clarity on that.
:13:34. > :13:38.Let's hear from the panel what they think. Let's hear from Kirsty
:13:39. > :13:45.Williams. I think we are not going to get anywhere if we cannot provide
:13:46. > :13:49.that strong, clear leadership and that strong clear - ask Westminster
:13:50. > :13:52.at this crucial time. We have seen the debate being dominated about
:13:53. > :13:55.what is going to happen in Scotland and England and Wales is being
:13:56. > :13:59.pushed to the sidelines again. We have a responsibility amongst all
:14:00. > :14:03.the political leadership and civic leadership to speak as much as we
:14:04. > :14:05.can with one clear voice about what we want out of Whitehall and
:14:06. > :14:10.Westminster. If we think that they are sitting up there in London
:14:11. > :14:15.thinking - yes, we'll hand it all over to Wales, then we are kidding
:14:16. > :14:21.ourselves. We have to find a way forward, otherwise we will be pushed
:14:22. > :14:34.to the margins. We will get crumbs off the table. A vow has been made
:14:35. > :14:38.that Scotland will get this from David Cameron, and he has chucked
:14:39. > :14:44.England into it. You can see in the papers it is all about Scotland and
:14:45. > :14:47.Wales, Scotland is being forgotten. On the remarks the Prime Minister
:14:48. > :14:53.made on Friday morning, he included every part of the Union needing a
:14:54. > :14:58.firm settlement, talking about what we need is to be constitutionally
:14:59. > :15:01.durable. He moved on to the general election, the main thing was
:15:02. > :15:05.attacking Labour. In fairness, it is correct that with a general election
:15:06. > :15:09.in seven or eight months' time that the people of the UK know, that when
:15:10. > :15:12.they are putting their X on the ballot paper, the party that will
:15:13. > :15:17.sit in Government for five years will resolve these issues and offer
:15:18. > :15:20.the answers. Have you spoken to David Cameron since the result? I
:15:21. > :15:25.have spoken to many people, not David Cameron. You would think he
:15:26. > :15:29.would ring you and say - where does Wales think on this? David Cameron
:15:30. > :15:33.and myself have spoken about length on what I believe needs to be done
:15:34. > :15:37.for Wales. What are you telling him? I have told him exactly what we need
:15:38. > :15:41.to do on fiscal matters. I'm confident we will get the fiscal
:15:42. > :15:45.settlement we require. I opened the programme saying I have the scars on
:15:46. > :15:49.my back to say that last spring I put myself forward to make sure
:15:50. > :15:52.Wales' voice was heard and as long as I'm leader of the Welsh
:15:53. > :15:54.Conservatives, Wales's voice will be heard in Westminster and we will get
:15:55. > :16:07.that settlement. It fits into the timetable that
:16:08. > :16:15.David Cameron has set out to resolve this issue for this island. We have
:16:16. > :16:19.a responsibility, as Richard Touchstone, to use the powers we
:16:20. > :16:24.have to solve some of the deep-rooted structural problems we
:16:25. > :16:29.have in Wales. I would suggest those issues have not been faced up to
:16:30. > :16:33.because we have got caught in a constitutional quagmire which is the
:16:34. > :16:36.easy option for politicians to skew skew their inabilities. Let us talk
:16:37. > :16:45.about funding now. It seems the Barnett Formula -
:16:46. > :16:48.the system that decides how Wales is funded, is unlikely to be
:16:49. > :16:50.reformed any time soon. What changes need to happen to make
:16:51. > :17:08.up the estimated shortfall Thank you very much. The Barnett
:17:09. > :17:12.formula is the mechanism whereby the money is divided across the UK. At
:17:13. > :17:19.the moment Scotland gets more than Wales and England. Where do you
:17:20. > :17:28.stand on this? Do we need to scrap this formula? It is clear that if
:17:29. > :17:33.you have formula which is based on population and not need, as he is
:17:34. > :17:39.part of the UK get poor alike Wales, you will have a real issue. But you
:17:40. > :17:47.cannot have economies which rely on spending money, not reading it.
:17:48. > :17:53.There are pieces of Barnet which are not addressing key issues.
:17:54. > :17:56.University research funding, all economies are dependent on drive
:17:57. > :18:04.research funding. It is not devolved. UK Government has set up a
:18:05. > :18:10.?10 billion business bank and that is not devolved. Wales loses out on
:18:11. > :18:14.that. It is not just about reforming the Barnett formula itself but
:18:15. > :18:22.making sure that other parts of the UK Government is also devolved in
:18:23. > :18:28.Wales to drive forward the economy. Kirsty Williams, your leader says it
:18:29. > :18:34.continues so that as it? My party actually says that Barnet will
:18:35. > :18:40.remain the formula for funding but we will ensure there are additional
:18:41. > :18:43.payments made. One reason Scotland does well is that prior to
:18:44. > :18:49.devolution the Scottish office was very good about getting items put
:18:50. > :18:54.into the block grant. Wales was less good at that. We have made a
:18:55. > :18:59.commitment in our manifesto to address the underfunding of Wales.
:19:00. > :19:05.When you saw the daily record during the campaign, that though signed by
:19:06. > :19:10.Nick Clegg saying you would really like to scrap the Barnett formula
:19:11. > :19:18.and he said it with the, where you cross with him? We had already
:19:19. > :19:23.addressed this back in August... Scotland will not budge on this. We
:19:24. > :19:30.have said clearly that Barnet will remain for the basis of funding. We
:19:31. > :19:35.also recognise that Wales does not get a good deal out of the Barnett
:19:36. > :19:39.formula. We will address the issue of payments above and beyond the
:19:40. > :19:46.block grant, we made that clear one month ago. It is interesting if you
:19:47. > :19:54.look at that value, because the sentence before it also says that
:19:55. > :20:01.resources should be shared equitably across all four nations. That is
:20:02. > :20:12.about moving towards a new group of needs. We have done the work. We now
:20:13. > :20:17.we are ?300 million underfunded. Our party has said that will be the
:20:18. > :20:24.addressed, Ed Miliband said it as well. We have a mechanism and I
:20:25. > :20:31.think we can now, it is back to weaken the we once the UK Government
:20:32. > :20:39.to get rid of this step mechanism and make sure they agree in
:20:40. > :20:39.principle end not continually being disadvantaged by the Barnett
:20:40. > :20:51.formula. It all stays as it is. The Barnett formula remains for Wales,
:20:52. > :20:59.no extra funding, how we raise extra money for Wales? Again, United, all
:21:00. > :21:04.parties signed up to a part in the Silk Commission, we should have the
:21:05. > :21:12.underfunding address, that was called for... Again this morning, Ed
:21:13. > :21:16.Miliband said this formula stays. You're saying one thing and your
:21:17. > :21:25.team in London are seeing something else. It is about how we address...
:21:26. > :21:29.We instigate a Barnett formula that means any further consequentials
:21:30. > :21:35.that come to Wales, we get at a level to meet our needs. Jerry has
:21:36. > :21:42.done the work. But you're looking to other people to do the work. Dylan
:21:43. > :21:52.makes a good point about what else we can do. Even if we had all the
:21:53. > :21:57.small taxes and income tax, still 75% of our budget is from the block
:21:58. > :22:02.grant. The points he makes about how we should ensure we get the funding
:22:03. > :22:09.from other sources, we have also in Wales progressed from ways we can
:22:10. > :22:15.get funding through public, private finance. University
:22:16. > :22:16.get funding through public, private important. Lots of comments from the
:22:17. > :22:24.audience. Scotland is being offered important. Lots of comments from the
:22:25. > :22:25.a good deal on powers and funding, because it had leverage, the threat
:22:26. > :22:31.it would leave the UK, so a because it had leverage, the threat
:22:32. > :22:36.been thrown at it to keep it in the UK. How can Wales get the leverage
:22:37. > :22:42.to get what it wants? If we had the leadership on this and didn't
:22:43. > :22:46.constantly talk about crumbs on the table and moved forward and talk
:22:47. > :22:50.about scrapping the Barnett formula because it does not meet the needs
:22:51. > :22:56.of Wales then we would be in a better position. We do not have a
:22:57. > :23:02.level playing field. There needs to be measures taken in the short-term
:23:03. > :23:07.to equalise our position and correct our historic disadvantage. In the
:23:08. > :23:11.long-term, we must move towards a situation where we are economically
:23:12. > :23:19.self-sufficient. Are we nearly there? Do you genuinely think Wales
:23:20. > :23:23.foreseeable future? I have ambitions foreseeable future? I have ambitions
:23:24. > :23:30.for Wales to become independent to make their own decisions. Timescale?
:23:31. > :23:36.We could not do that tomorrow. How many years are we talking about?
:23:37. > :23:37.We could not do that tomorrow. How is a big gap. This is the point
:23:38. > :23:39.about reforming the is a big gap. This is the point
:23:40. > :23:49.formula... Hang on. When Scotland is a big gap. This is the point
:23:50. > :23:53.you think they did so? is a big gap. This is the point
:23:54. > :23:57.knew they were better as part of the union in terms
:23:58. > :24:00.knew they were better as part of the social solidarity and risks, they
:24:01. > :24:12.knew they were better. In terms of the future prospects of
:24:13. > :24:14.knew they were better. In terms of native kingdom. We have a strong
:24:15. > :24:22.political will read this table today. On independence, given the
:24:23. > :24:26.timescale. Surely we would all agree that we would want to get Wales in
:24:27. > :24:31.the position whether they could ask the people of Wales whether they
:24:32. > :24:36.wanted independence? It is not possible to see how far off that is
:24:37. > :24:38.because the fiscal gap is big at the moment and the government
:24:39. > :24:44.because the fiscal gap is big at the taking any measures to close it.
:24:45. > :24:51.That is why we need a new government after 2016 with plans to close the
:24:52. > :24:52.glad -- close the gap. You do get clarity in Scotland in terms of who
:24:53. > :25:00.once fought. Where do you clarity in Scotland in terms of who
:25:01. > :25:06.terms of a timescale? Isn't a dream or reality? This is all down to
:25:07. > :25:10.people and they will or reality? This is all down to
:25:11. > :25:15.when it takes place. I could envisage a situation where there is
:25:16. > :25:18.a Plaid Cymru government in 2016 with a mandate to drop its own
:25:19. > :25:23.constitution and a mandate to have a proper industrial policy with powers
:25:24. > :25:35.to start the process of getting people into work, paying taxes into
:25:36. > :25:37.a Welsh tax pot and closing the gap. It will not be impossible then to
:25:38. > :25:40.move towards an independence referendum in the second term. That
:25:41. > :25:47.would be a matter for the people. We are talking 2020 to then? That could
:25:48. > :25:53.be possible. The first thing to say is that Wales benefits from the
:25:54. > :25:58.union. Listening to what is going on about 300 million being
:25:59. > :26:03.short-changed. We are getting more out of the union than we could end.
:26:04. > :26:08.As a politician in Wales, I will argue for more for Wales as part of
:26:09. > :26:13.the union but what we have got to do is create an economy that can
:26:14. > :26:18.generate more wealth itself. The only way to do that is by having the
:26:19. > :26:24.fiscal and taxation levers to do that. You grow the tax base. You do
:26:25. > :26:31.that by incentivising people to work, creating entrepreneurs. Come
:26:32. > :26:36.to Wales and stay here. You have to lower taxes in Wales. That is the
:26:37. > :26:41.way you create your wealth. There was no part in arguing this again
:26:42. > :26:48.and again, you have to have the solutions. This is an important site
:26:49. > :26:54.you are looking for cancers. That is why we have inward investment
:26:55. > :27:00.strategies. -- for cancers. That is why we have brought regeneration
:27:01. > :27:06.ideas forward. The important thing is to generate wealth here in Wales
:27:07. > :27:12.and link it to specific projects like research financing which is a
:27:13. > :27:17.UK wide issue and wheels can punch well above its weight by plugging
:27:18. > :27:24.into the UK agenda of improving the research bases on nice islands. On
:27:25. > :27:31.taxation, you want income tax, would you lower rates for the top earners?
:27:32. > :27:36.Possibly. I am not prepared to make a commitment. That is an ongoing
:27:37. > :27:44.debate on that in the party. We have not decided. The problem is the
:27:45. > :27:48.party leaders the others he made these promises to Scotland without
:27:49. > :27:54.consulting Parliament and they made them out of panic, and the Barnett
:27:55. > :28:00.formula, making promises to Scotland without considering the rest of the
:28:01. > :28:07.UK, including England, means they will began adding momentum towards
:28:08. > :28:10.speak up. A commentator said the referendum in Scotland had a week
:28:11. > :28:18.and the sleeping beast of English nationalism. Party leaders will need
:28:19. > :28:23.to address this. We do not have any UK politicians on the panel. I think
:28:24. > :28:26.that is what caused the problem in Scotland in the first place, they
:28:27. > :28:34.spend their time in Westminster rather than Scotland. A question
:28:35. > :28:40.about health in the front? It is like begging. The idea that English
:28:41. > :28:45.waters will give ?300 million more to Wales seems ludicrous to me. We
:28:46. > :28:50.have to break out about this argument about how much money we
:28:51. > :28:55.need, important although it is. We need to energise politics in wheels,
:28:56. > :29:02.it is a steal in Wales as it is in England because we are not engaging
:29:03. > :29:06.people in the issues that matter. For example health, people feel
:29:07. > :29:11.passionately about it but they feel pushed out of that debate. It is
:29:12. > :29:18.difficult to have an adult debate about the health service in Wales.
:29:19. > :29:25.There are important decisions to be made. Politicians arguing is a
:29:26. > :29:29.massive turn-off. I think we're having a debate about what powers
:29:30. > :29:36.but not with the public about why need those powers. I am not sure if
:29:37. > :29:42.there is a classical consensus about how and when it is done around the
:29:43. > :29:48.table. We have not expressed to teachers why they would be better or
:29:49. > :29:53.worse off if this was to come. How exactly will be change the lives of
:29:54. > :30:02.people in Wales? We have already said we are 300 million short since
:30:03. > :30:08.the Barnett formula came in. It has degenerated the NHS and dirt
:30:09. > :30:16.education system. Three local primary schools near me had a
:30:17. > :30:21.consultation about closing. If we need to protect things for future
:30:22. > :30:28.generations, how will we have the ability to invest in our future, we
:30:29. > :30:32.have not got the education in Wales for people to come year.
:30:33. > :30:38.The lady at the back, it is creditedical that Wales' voices are
:30:39. > :30:43.heard. That's why we have to have unity and we have in terms of the
:30:44. > :30:48.way forward but let's remember it was our First Minister, Carwyn Jones
:30:49. > :30:54.who two years ago said we need a UK convention to discuss this. It can't
:30:55. > :30:56.be just - Were you not impressed? I was impressed Andrew that David
:30:57. > :31:01.Cameron said Wales should be at the heart of the debate, which was good.
:31:02. > :31:04.It was a nod. Wales should be at the heart. So obviously we pressed for
:31:05. > :31:08.this UK convention but it is critical, as Marcus has said, that
:31:09. > :31:12.we can move forward to engage people in Wales, people are passionate
:31:13. > :31:17.about the health service. I have to say I'm financial minister, with a
:31:18. > :31:22.budget that has been cut by this UK Government, by 10% in real terms,
:31:23. > :31:28.that's why there is a pressure on health and education but let's use
:31:29. > :31:32.this opportunity to unite where we can, speak strongly together, get
:31:33. > :31:36.the engagements of not just people who use services but our health
:31:37. > :31:40.professionals and our teachers, of course and our children. I want to
:31:41. > :31:43.also go for votes for 16 and 17-year-olds because I think it'll
:31:44. > :31:46.make a difference. Let's try to get another question in. That comes from
:31:47. > :31:52.the academic, David Howell. David. Where would you like to see
:31:53. > :31:57.Wales in five years from now? Big question. Let's go to somebody who
:31:58. > :32:03.has not constrained by being in office, Leanne Wood. I would like to
:32:04. > :32:08.see us in a position where the fiscal gap was closing, where our
:32:09. > :32:14.economy was improving, where more of our people were in better-paid jobs
:32:15. > :32:17.and where we were starting to put together the institutions and
:32:18. > :32:21.infrastructure, whereby we could get to the point where we had the debate
:32:22. > :32:26.that people have had recently in Scotland about why powers, why
:32:27. > :32:29.independence, what independence could achieve, to prevent us
:32:30. > :32:33.carrying on with the same-old business as usual. The cuts you have
:32:34. > :32:36.talked about, that is currently closing schools and putting our
:32:37. > :32:40.health service in jeopardy. Whichever party is in power in
:32:41. > :32:45.Westminster is going to continue with the austerity agenda. The
:32:46. > :32:48.debate in Scotland was something alternative to this could be
:32:49. > :32:52.possible with independence. I would dearly love us to be able to have a
:32:53. > :32:58.similar conversation like that here in Wales. Andrew TR Davies. 2019, in
:32:59. > :33:03.Wales, what is going on? A lot will depend on who gets selected in 2016.
:33:04. > :33:07.There is a sequence of elections, 2015 and 2016, the again and Welsh
:33:08. > :33:12.Assembly elections which will set the tone for what we want to be in
:33:13. > :33:16.2019. We can carry on with in business as usual with the Labour
:33:17. > :33:21.Party and the other two parties propping them up or we can move to
:33:22. > :33:25.aprogressive agenda that grows the we'll shall economy, offers
:33:26. > :33:28.opportunity for people in Wales to grow, create the pillars of society
:33:29. > :33:33.and ultimately support our own public services. You could do that
:33:34. > :33:36.now, you are in power in Westminster and giving more to Wales. We are
:33:37. > :33:41.doing that, look at the economic growth, the job creation, look at
:33:42. > :33:45.the way the UK is looked at across the rest of the world. We have a
:33:46. > :33:48.successful model at running the economy. Look at who willed a and
:33:49. > :33:52.France. Compare and contrast what we have done by stabilising the public
:33:53. > :33:56.finances and turning people back to work, to what is going on in France.
:33:57. > :34:00.Book in Wales ultimately what we have to do is be passionate and have
:34:01. > :34:05.belief in what we can do and it has to be focussed in stopping this
:34:06. > :34:11.anaemic economic growth, and growing the economic economy, so people feel
:34:12. > :34:14.prosperous in Wales, making money. In England resentedment of
:34:15. > :34:20.Westminster and north and Midlands is leading to demands for city
:34:21. > :34:26.states and devolved regions. In Wales, there is also resentment not
:34:27. > :34:29.just of Westminster, but Cardiff Bay, too, hasn't the time come to
:34:30. > :34:34.empower the level of government that's closest to the communities
:34:35. > :34:38.people leave in. More devolution, we will come to
:34:39. > :34:43.that. Our questioner, where do you think we will be. Two questions,
:34:44. > :34:46.where I would like us to be and where I think we'll be. We talked
:34:47. > :34:50.about strength in the devolution settlement. I would like to see that
:34:51. > :34:52.and a lot of people would agree. We have talked about demonstrable
:34:53. > :34:55.returns in relation it the devolution settlement in Wales.
:34:56. > :35:00.Whether voters necessarily believe we are in a position to do something
:35:01. > :35:03.positive, with a stronger devolution settlement, I think is a more
:35:04. > :35:08.pressing question. The only thing I would add to that is what I would
:35:09. > :35:11.true lie like to see is the level of engagement from voters that we have
:35:12. > :35:16.seen in Scotland. I think it is a tremendous thing to celebrate. On
:35:17. > :35:19.that, coasty Williams, the vision thing, the engagement. -- Kirsty
:35:20. > :35:23.Williams. Everybody knew what we were talking B how do you replicate
:35:24. > :35:27.that in Wales? -- talking about. I would like to see a settled
:35:28. > :35:31.constitution so we can move on from talking about the these issues and
:35:32. > :35:34.concentrate on what we are going to do with the powers. I think that's
:35:35. > :35:39.how you get the engagement when you will be offering voters in Wales
:35:40. > :35:42.real choices knowing you can deliver them rather than having to second
:35:43. > :35:47.guess whoo might or might not happen in waechls you are right,
:35:48. > :35:50.absolutely. I represent a Mid Wales constituency. Believe me people in
:35:51. > :35:55.Brecon often feel as disinterested in Cardiff as they do in else W so
:35:56. > :36:00.really driving power down, devolution not just for Cardiff but
:36:01. > :36:03.back to local government in Wales. We are coming to the end of the
:36:04. > :36:08.programme. The vision thing, you are in charge, Jane, what is the vision,
:36:09. > :36:12.five years from now? Well, in five years, I hope, actually, Andrew, we
:36:13. > :36:22.will have a Labour Government in Westminster to deliver on some of
:36:23. > :36:26.the issues which are affecting so many people today Ed Miliband has
:36:27. > :36:29.said ?8 minimum wage which will address some of the poverty issues
:36:30. > :36:34.people are experiencing in Wales. What we have to do and I entirely
:36:35. > :36:37.agree with panel members and my colleagues, that we have to do more
:36:38. > :36:41.to engage people in the political process. I have mentioned 16 and
:36:42. > :36:45.17-year-olds. Our young people tell us what they think Wales should be,
:36:46. > :36:49.a Wales which is more prosperous. A Wales which is healthier but also a
:36:50. > :36:54.Wales which is fairer. I think that's where - that's why, in terms
:36:55. > :36:57.of our discussions, our engagement with young people particularly, that
:36:58. > :37:04.will bring people on board but it has to be a fairer and more equal
:37:05. > :37:08.Wales. And let's face it, I do think many of the panel's members have
:37:09. > :37:14.said - what we should be doing with our powers now? We went on the
:37:15. > :37:16.doorsteps and argued all of us we should have legislative powers.
:37:17. > :37:21.ALL TALK AT ONCE
:37:22. > :37:24.We are drawing to an end. We have three leaders around the table. Will
:37:25. > :37:29.you be leading your party in five years Leanne Wood? I hope so. Yes.
:37:30. > :37:33.Definitely. No challenges coming down the road? You never know in the
:37:34. > :37:39.Conservative Party. And Kirsty Williams? Any plans? No
:37:40. > :37:43.plans, except keeping on pressing Wales's case in Westminster. That's
:37:44. > :37:48.what I think my job at the moment is to do, to ensure that we get our
:37:49. > :37:51.fair share out of these discussions. Carwyn Jones isn't here, he will
:37:52. > :37:57.still be, presumably, leading your party, will he? Do you fancy it? He
:37:58. > :37:59.has taken the lead not just in Wales but for Wales on behalf of the whole
:38:00. > :38:02.of the UK. Let's become his but for Wales on behalf of the whole
:38:03. > :38:05.convention and make sure Wales is strong in the debate.
:38:06. > :38:09.OK, well I think the debate will go on. Thank you very much to our
:38:10. > :38:12.panellists. That's all we on. Thank you very much to our
:38:13. > :38:19.for tonight. The debate goes on social media at
:38:20. > :38:24.# The Walesreport. Huw Edwards will be back with a new series of the
:38:25. > :38:31.Wales Report in October. But for now, thanks for joining us,
:38:32. > :38:37.diolch am Wylio, Nos Da, Good Night.