:00:00. > :00:09.Calls for better access in Wales to new cancer drugs - does
:00:10. > :00:13.Keeping an eye on the decision makers.
:00:14. > :00:15.Do we really know enough about what the Welsh Government and
:00:16. > :00:27.The Welsh Government and the national assembly are too
:00:28. > :00:33.self-satisfied and too smug in terms of what they perceive as openness
:00:34. > :00:35.and transparency. They could go a lot, lot further.
:00:36. > :00:37.And tackling extremism - we look at the work being
:00:38. > :00:39.done within Muslim communities in Wales.
:00:40. > :00:52.Good evening, and welcome to The Wales Report.
:00:53. > :00:57.It's estimated that 130,000 people in Wales are living with cancer -
:00:58. > :00:59.it's a figure which is expected to rise.
:01:00. > :01:10.A survey being launched this Autumn reports inconsistent access to new
:01:11. > :01:12.cancer treatments in Wales, with concerns that there's huge
:01:13. > :01:14.disparity within Wales and across the UK when it comes to
:01:15. > :01:23.We'll be discussing that in a moment, and you can join in the
:01:24. > :01:26.conservation on social media tonight using the hashtag thewalesreport.
:01:27. > :01:35.But first, let's hear from Annie Mullholland.
:01:36. > :01:42.We have been following her story for some time here on The Wales Report.
:01:43. > :01:51.I have really an cancer and it is an enjoyable cancer. I spoke to The
:01:52. > :01:56.Wales Report in 2013 and I just about registered with a GP in London
:01:57. > :02:02.to access my NHS services at and other address in England, and I was
:02:03. > :02:09.on request, really, to get a drug I was denied because I lived in
:02:10. > :02:13.Cardiff. I was facing barriers so, for joining the trial, for accessing
:02:14. > :02:18.a drug I could have, and I couldn't see how I would keep myself a life
:02:19. > :02:24.without help. I felt I think the worst I have ever felt in my life
:02:25. > :02:27.and I felt so angry because other people, other women, were getting
:02:28. > :02:32.some treatments and I was not and I felt that was on fair -- keep myself
:02:33. > :02:36.alive. Because I felt discriminated against for the first time in my
:02:37. > :02:40.life and the horror of that feeling, being discriminated against
:02:41. > :02:46.by your NHS, it was the worst feeling of my life and made me feel
:02:47. > :02:51.I didn't want to fight as well, I might as well die, because no one
:02:52. > :02:55.would help me live. I would just like to see fairness across the
:02:56. > :02:59.United Kingdom and unfortunately the provision for all very an cancer is
:03:00. > :03:05.grossly unfair. There remains a disparity of access to drugs in
:03:06. > :03:09.Wales. It is very poor and the worst thing is there is no clear criteria
:03:10. > :03:16.by which oncologists or patients know in advance what their treatment
:03:17. > :03:22.will be. If I could say something I would say that if every patient in
:03:23. > :03:25.Wales was as discerning as I am they would be in England banging on the
:03:26. > :03:28.further treatment or they would be demanding fairer access to.
:03:29. > :03:34.I'm joined now by Dr Richard Greville,
:03:35. > :03:36.the Wales Director of the Association
:03:37. > :03:37.of the British Pharmaceutical Industry
:03:38. > :03:50.and Plaid Cymru's health spokesperson Elin Jones.
:03:51. > :03:55.Doctor Greville, you have this report out and I know you can speak
:03:56. > :03:59.about that but what are your views on disparity to access to drugs in
:04:00. > :04:05.Wales. There is disparity in Wales, between Wales and the rest of the
:04:06. > :04:10.UK. Certainly we run a survey with YouGov in conjunction with the NHS
:04:11. > :04:17.Confederation in Wales and from that serve the it was interesting to note
:04:18. > :04:21.that 80% of the people surveyed, they thought that more needed to be
:04:22. > :04:26.done in terms of improving access to medicine. Just explain why there is
:04:27. > :04:31.this disparity across Wales, because it is down to the individual health
:04:32. > :04:35.boards, isn't it? It is down to individual health boards in many
:04:36. > :04:39.ways. There are a national assessments of medicines in Wales
:04:40. > :04:46.but below that there are levels of funding decisions that can be made
:04:47. > :04:49.at a local level. We are well aware the Welsh Government is working to
:04:50. > :04:58.consolidate that approach and is on the verge of making an announcement
:04:59. > :05:01.of a new process and we do hope that new one Wales process will be useful
:05:02. > :05:07.in terms of limiting or minimising this disparity. Elin Jones, the
:05:08. > :05:14.Welsh Government would argue that spending perhaps -- per head, no one
:05:15. > :05:18.is at a record high and they are doing what they can and have opted
:05:19. > :05:23.not to go for the Cancer Drugs Fund. The current system of access to new
:05:24. > :05:26.drugs and treatments is dysfunctional in Wales and the
:05:27. > :05:33.experience of Annie Mullholland clearly shows that as does the
:05:34. > :05:36.campaign in Bangor and the inconsistency of funding decisions.
:05:37. > :05:41.You would make all of these available, would you? Avastin would
:05:42. > :05:49.be free to everybody in Wales? I think the first thing to tackle in
:05:50. > :05:52.Wales is to ensure we do not have a postcode lottery. We have people
:05:53. > :05:56.moving from one health board area to another in order to access drugs in
:05:57. > :06:01.Wales and surely that should not be a system. For 3 million people
:06:02. > :06:05.surely we can have one national system in Wales with transparency
:06:06. > :06:12.and equality for the patients, in being able to access or not, as the
:06:13. > :06:15.case may be, the drugs. The Welsh Government has refused this idea of
:06:16. > :06:19.a Cancer Drugs Fund and in England you could argue it is being wound
:06:20. > :06:22.down as we see further treatment is today being removed again. As the
:06:23. > :06:29.Welsh Government correct not to go down that path, Richard Greville? We
:06:30. > :06:33.have welcomed the number of patients treated with the Cancer Drugs Fund
:06:34. > :06:37.in England but we were never a great advocate of the approach taken. We
:06:38. > :06:41.think it requires a more holistic approach. It is not just cancer
:06:42. > :06:45.medicines with a low and slow uptake within the UK and we think a more
:06:46. > :06:50.holistic answer would be more appropriate for the uptake of
:06:51. > :06:54.medicines as a whole. You are in the pharmaceutical industry. What about
:06:55. > :06:58.the price of these drugs? A lot of them are extortionate. Is it not
:06:59. > :07:03.down to the industry to lower that price? Indeed it is. The cost of
:07:04. > :07:09.developing medicines increases as time goes on. That is almost
:07:10. > :07:13.exponential on occasion, however we recognise that those costs need to
:07:14. > :07:19.be considered and in fact there is currently a pricing scheme across
:07:20. > :07:22.the UK that means that there is not an increased expenditure on
:07:23. > :07:27.medicines in the UK. Any increase in expenditure is now covered by a
:07:28. > :07:34.rebate from the pharmaceutical companies back to the Department of
:07:35. > :07:39.Health in the UK. Is it down to the drug funds, Elin Jones? Tax rebate
:07:40. > :07:45.that has just been referred to means that there is an allocation to Wales
:07:46. > :07:49.of around ?50 million this year -- that rebate. It is currently not
:07:50. > :07:52.ring fenced by the Welsh Government for access of patients to new drugs
:07:53. > :07:57.and treatments and I think it should be ring fenced for that purpose.
:07:58. > :08:00.That is the reason it was there. We should not have decisions based
:08:01. > :08:05.purely on cost when it comes to access to treatments. There are an
:08:06. > :08:08.awful lot of statistics when it comes to cancer but one that stands
:08:09. > :08:13.out from the Macmillan charity is that by the end of next year 50
:08:14. > :08:19.people per day it is expected, in Wales, will be diagnosed with
:08:20. > :08:26.cancer. Can Wales Corp? There will be people needing very specialist
:08:27. > :08:31.treatment and some needing more mainstream treatment -- can Wales
:08:32. > :08:35.cope. We will need that to be in the decisions taken by health boards in
:08:36. > :08:49.conditions. Black thank you both, very much. -- thank you both. It is
:08:50. > :08:50.ultimately the health boards making these life and death decisions.
:08:51. > :08:52.The ability to scrutinise people with power
:08:53. > :08:54.is the mainstay of a vibrant democracy.
:08:55. > :08:56.So should we be worried that a handful of politicians
:08:57. > :08:58.and commentators have expressed concerns that scrutiny in Wales
:08:59. > :09:01.is being eroded by the decisions of the Welsh Government
:09:02. > :09:03.and some of the systems of the Welsh Assembly?
:09:04. > :09:20.Who said it was built as a beacon of Wales's new democracy, a metaphor in
:09:21. > :09:23.Slate, wood and glass for the age of devolution. There is glass
:09:24. > :09:28.everywhere in this building, the exterior walls, the viewing gallery,
:09:29. > :09:33.the committee rooms, a design choice with a message. In the corridors of
:09:34. > :09:38.power, daylight is the best disinfectant. Transparency,
:09:39. > :09:41.accountability, scrutiny, the ability to see, understand and
:09:42. > :09:45.question those whose decisions affect your life. These are the
:09:46. > :09:49.things that keep a democracy healthy. But recent events have led
:09:50. > :09:50.some commentators to voice their concerns that our democracy is
:09:51. > :09:56.ailing. I've had the pleasure and privilege
:09:57. > :09:58.of watching the National Assembly for Wales since its inception back
:09:59. > :10:02.in 1999, and I have to say I have found the fourth Assembly to be
:10:03. > :10:05.the most closed and the least A tone has been set whereby
:10:06. > :10:12.transparency has become more of a tick box exercise rather than
:10:13. > :10:25.something that is vibrant One of Labour's on backbenchers
:10:26. > :10:30.criticised what she called an unhealthy culture at the top of
:10:31. > :10:33.Welsh Government. Jenny Rathbone was sacked from the chairmanship of the
:10:34. > :10:38.committee after criticising the Government. It was not a scrutiny
:10:39. > :10:40.committee and it was said she breached collective responsibility,
:10:41. > :10:45.but opposition parties are not buying that explanation. There is an
:10:46. > :10:49.honourable tradition of backbenchers from all parties in Westminster
:10:50. > :10:54.being critical friends and that is an important part of the political
:10:55. > :11:00.culture. We have never seen that develop in Wales, where Labour
:11:01. > :11:03.backbenchers have, for the most part, been very reluctant to speak
:11:04. > :11:07.out, and if they do have the temerity to speak out in the eyes of
:11:08. > :11:12.their own Government, they are dealt with very harshly, and I think that
:11:13. > :11:16.is a real shame. The committee system exists to interrogate
:11:17. > :11:19.Government policy and scrutinise legislation among other things but
:11:20. > :11:23.it is not just Labour who have sacked committee chairs who have
:11:24. > :11:27.disagreed with them. The Conservatives and Plaid Cymru have
:11:28. > :11:31.done so as well. I think there is too much power and patron edge in
:11:32. > :11:35.the hands of the Labour Party. They have moved away from that system,
:11:36. > :11:39.incidentally, Westminster and it is now a much more egalitarian system
:11:40. > :11:43.with the best people for the jobs, actually, becoming the committee
:11:44. > :11:47.chairs, and they are protected from losing those roles. If they happen
:11:48. > :11:52.to fall out of favour with the party leadership. But if this use of
:11:53. > :11:57.chairmanship Seppi Matic of a bigger problem? Success of reports into
:11:58. > :12:01.hourss system of devolution reveals we do not have enough backbenchers
:12:02. > :12:03.to properly scrutinise Government policy and legislation --
:12:04. > :12:19.symptomatic of a bigger problem. We have got around 42 serving in a
:12:20. > :12:24.whole range of committees. It means the vast majority of the 42 serve on
:12:25. > :12:30.at least two committees and some on three. With all due respect to time
:12:31. > :12:33.management, it is almost impossible to throw yourself into an effective
:12:34. > :12:37.scrutiny role when you are being pulled from pillar to post and try
:12:38. > :12:42.to understand and dig deep into the issues you are facing as a committee
:12:43. > :12:47.member. And recently there has also been disquiet on what has, on the
:12:48. > :12:53.face of it, been quite an arcane subject. The Welsh Governance Centre
:12:54. > :12:56.it was... The reports provided the facts and analysis on which
:12:57. > :13:00.ministers base their decisions. Hardly anyone ever read them and the
:13:01. > :13:05.Government says pressure on resources meant it was streamlining
:13:06. > :13:09.the system. The numbers game is not a credible explanation for this
:13:10. > :13:13.because it is not of interest to a lot of ordinary citizens but people
:13:14. > :13:18.who represent ordinary citizens, whether that is groups in civic
:13:19. > :13:23.society or academics all obvious of any kind have the right to see the
:13:24. > :13:27.trail as too why a ministerial decision has been made. And they
:13:28. > :13:30.have thrown up some really interesting stories over the years.
:13:31. > :13:34.Journalists have examined more deeply on the basis of having a
:13:35. > :13:40.trigger from the ministerial report so I think the numbers game is not a
:13:41. > :13:44.legitimate argument. I doubt it would save anything substantial in
:13:45. > :13:49.terms of costs and the reality is, this has been a real opportunity for
:13:50. > :13:54.shining a light at the rationale and the Trail by which a decision was
:13:55. > :13:58.reached. And then there is the media. Obviously journalism should
:13:59. > :14:01.scrutinise politicians and their decisions but when you compare the
:14:02. > :14:05.media in Wales with their counterparts in England and
:14:06. > :14:10.Scotland, the industry here seems weak, under resourced and lacking in
:14:11. > :14:14.competition. For those who have spent their careers studying Welsh
:14:15. > :14:18.politics and civil society, this is another illustration of how far we
:14:19. > :14:21.still have to travel in developing a robust culture of scrutiny. I have
:14:22. > :14:27.said very publicly I think there is a lot more to do to enhance the
:14:28. > :14:30.scrutiny we have at all levels of Welsh politics and people make the
:14:31. > :14:34.mistake of thinking we just talk about the scrutiny of the Welsh
:14:35. > :14:37.government but I think we are talking about scrutiny in a much
:14:38. > :14:44.broader way, our public bodies, what our MPs do, it is a pretty immature
:14:45. > :14:48.cultural form of scrutiny that we have at the moment and, in my
:14:49. > :14:53.opinion, that is because we have not really got to grips with the need to
:14:54. > :14:59.have proper forensic and strategic critiques of everything we do
:15:00. > :15:04.post-devolution. The Assembly, in many respects, encapsulates this. It
:15:05. > :15:12.simply does not have the in-built culture of proper robust scrutiny in
:15:13. > :15:16.everything it does. The building with its transparent glass walls is
:15:17. > :15:20.a great home for Welsh lawmakers and it is a very popular visitor
:15:21. > :15:26.attraction, but the Welsh government does not live there, it lives here
:15:27. > :15:30.in the classicism of central Cardiff. You can't see much at all
:15:31. > :15:34.of what is going on inside the building. Transparency,
:15:35. > :15:39.accountability, scrutiny, these things are not considered by glass
:15:40. > :15:43.walls, you have got to build them. The Welsh government and the
:15:44. > :15:47.National Assembly are too self-satisfied and smoke in terms of
:15:48. > :15:52.what they perceive openness and transparency is. They can go a lot
:15:53. > :15:57.further. The minister who organises government business behind those
:15:58. > :16:02.glass walls is Jane Hutt. Do you think the Welsh government
:16:03. > :16:06.demonstrates a serious commitment to scrutiny? It is a priority to be
:16:07. > :16:11.open and transparent and it is very ported, as you say, this is a very
:16:12. > :16:15.test for devolution and we are open and transparent, that people know
:16:16. > :16:20.what we are doing, that they cannot only through scrutiny but the public
:16:21. > :16:25.can engage with us, which is why we publish all our cabinet papers, the
:16:26. > :16:29.minutes for our papers, we have endless statements, scrutiny of us
:16:30. > :16:37.in the chamber, but it really is to make sure that we are open and
:16:38. > :16:40.people can question as and challenge us, and that is very important to a
:16:41. > :16:45.vibrant democracy. In recent months, the decision reports are not being
:16:46. > :16:48.published any more. A Labour backbencher has described an
:16:49. > :16:54.unhealthy culture at the top of Welsh government. Recent evidence
:16:55. > :17:01.would suggest otherwise. I think the issue about decision reports, as I
:17:02. > :17:04.have said already, this was a particular thing that was done, not
:17:05. > :17:12.many people looked at this decision. But isn't it about
:17:13. > :17:16.transparency? We are trying to also, with very constrained public
:17:17. > :17:20.finances, reduce bureaucracy and it is important to look at what we are
:17:21. > :17:24.doing, is it effective, are we getting the message over? We are
:17:25. > :17:28.using a lot more communication through social media, which is
:17:29. > :17:32.important, but we can't just be through social media in gauging with
:17:33. > :17:38.the press, in gauging with the community and people, and just as
:17:39. > :17:41.the constituency AM as well as a minister, it is an absolute
:17:42. > :17:48.responsibility that people can question and understand why we are
:17:49. > :17:54.delivering on them. Is there any suggestion in that that you might
:17:55. > :17:58.reconsider the decision? It does go back to perhaps one particular
:17:59. > :18:04.procedure that we stopped. If you look at the decision reports of the
:18:05. > :18:10.last six months before we did cease them, it was 0.5 per cent of the
:18:11. > :18:14.website hits were about this decision report. But why is that the
:18:15. > :18:19.relevant factor rather than being available to those who want to look
:18:20. > :18:23.in more detail at the chain of decision-making over policy? I think
:18:24. > :18:28.it is very important that we do publish the Cabinet papers but also
:18:29. > :18:34.that we publish on our websites and evaluation of what we are doing. You
:18:35. > :18:37.thought that was the case about ministerial decision reports,
:18:38. > :18:41.otherwise they would never have been published in the first place. I
:18:42. > :18:48.think it is very much in the context of trying to remove bureaucracy and
:18:49. > :18:56.complex of the Indians of what we do, the process of government,
:18:57. > :19:03.reaching out. We want to be open. Carwyn Jones is now running around
:19:04. > :19:08.the country doing car wing Connects because people want to engage
:19:09. > :19:15.correctly face-to-face. We have got to make sure that we are open to
:19:16. > :19:20.accountable, we are... What about criticism from your own
:19:21. > :19:24.backbenchers? There is a clear issue about government appointment for
:19:25. > :19:29.their programme monitoring committee. When was that ever
:19:30. > :19:36.applied to the chair of the committee? When has that ever
:19:37. > :19:44.applied? That committee that the Welsh government appoints and I
:19:45. > :19:51.think we have got to say that in terms, I have been in the Assembly
:19:52. > :19:57.since the start, and a very line to be bench, as it should be, of
:19:58. > :20:05.backbenchers, not just in terms of scrutiny but playing a key part
:20:06. > :20:14.alongside the opposition. I think we have got to be open and
:20:15. > :20:18.transparent, the First Minister, he has answered questions on this
:20:19. > :20:23.point. But also we have to recognise that we have got a very committed
:20:24. > :20:27.group, and it is a group, the largest group in the Assembly. We
:20:28. > :20:32.are a minority Labour government but we have got a committed, loyal group
:20:33. > :20:38.who were elected on a manifesto because they believe in Labour
:20:39. > :20:42.values and playing usually important parts in committees, scrutinising
:20:43. > :20:46.ministers, and I value that. I don't want to have a soft time in a
:20:47. > :20:51.committee, I'd want to be challenged, I want to be scrutinised
:20:52. > :20:54.as a minister, and that is the culture that we want to take forward
:20:55. > :20:56.in the Welsh assembly and the Welsh government.
:20:57. > :20:58.The rise of radicalisation and extremism has dominated
:20:59. > :21:01.the headlines over the past year, with Cardiff in the spotlight
:21:02. > :21:04.after three young men from the capital fled to Syria
:21:05. > :21:09.The UK Government's strategy, Prevent,
:21:10. > :21:12.tries to stop people supporting terrorism.
:21:13. > :21:16.But it's faced criticism, most recently from a former senior
:21:17. > :21:20.Muslim police officer who described it as a "toxic brand"
:21:21. > :21:24.used as a tool to spy on the Muslim community.
:21:25. > :21:29.Mona Bayoumi is a barrister living in Cardiff.
:21:30. > :21:32.She went to meet a group of young Muslims to discuss their experiences
:21:33. > :21:44.and thoughts on how to tackle radicalisation and Islamophobia.
:21:45. > :21:53.I have lived in south Wales since 1994 and I am a practising Muslim. I
:21:54. > :21:59.have wanted to get involved in the local Prevent strategy in Wales,
:22:00. > :22:02.despite my concerns regarding the wider UK Government scheme. This is
:22:03. > :22:08.because I believe it provides individuals from all walks of life,
:22:09. > :22:12.both within the new -- Muslim and wider community, a unique
:22:13. > :22:13.opportunity to get involved in tackling this critical issue of
:22:14. > :22:25.radicalisation. Recent news items have brought a
:22:26. > :22:30.sharp focus on Cardiff in particular. Three young men from the
:22:31. > :22:34.capital 's fled to Syria to join so-called Islamic State, but their
:22:35. > :22:38.actions have had a devastating knock-on effect on the community
:22:39. > :22:42.here. My hope is that members of the community can help shape the Prevent
:22:43. > :22:46.strategy on the ground, making the best decisions to suit the community
:22:47. > :22:52.and without demonising Muslims any further. And young people are key to
:22:53. > :22:57.shaping it. Hello, nice to see you.
:22:58. > :23:03.With recent stories about people fleeing to Syria and even people
:23:04. > :23:08.from our local community in Cardiff, what would you say the impact that
:23:09. > :23:13.has had on is in south Wales? There have been a series of events that
:23:14. > :23:19.have built up to portray a negative image but I don't think that has
:23:20. > :23:23.just shot the external community, I think Muslims themselves are quite
:23:24. > :23:29.shocked as well. People are becoming more wary of Muslims. I feel when I
:23:30. > :23:36.am walking down the street, I feel the stairs and I don't feel quite
:23:37. > :23:40.safe. There has been interfaith events in Cardiff, in City Hall, and
:23:41. > :23:45.we are trying to build bridges. But that is not in the media, it is
:23:46. > :23:48.mostly negative aspects. People believe whatever they see in the
:23:49. > :23:54.media, they don't believe in the other side of the story. The Muslim
:23:55. > :23:57.community in Wales are foremost in wanting to tackle the rise in
:23:58. > :24:03.radicalisation and bring extremism to an end. Groups like so-called
:24:04. > :24:12.Islamic State are an utter abomination and fly in the face of
:24:13. > :24:16.what Islam really stands for. All forms of radicalisation and
:24:17. > :24:19.extremism are targeted under the Prevent strategy but despite threats
:24:20. > :24:23.from other groups like the far right, the narrative from
:24:24. > :24:29.policymakers as reported in the press focuses squarely on Islam.
:24:30. > :24:32.This only adds to the frustration and sense of disenfranchisement that
:24:33. > :24:37.the Muslim community across Wales is increasingly feeling and is plainly
:24:38. > :24:41.a barrier to the success of efforts on the ground to address these
:24:42. > :24:45.issues. It is imperative that these barriers are tackled head-on.
:24:46. > :24:50.I'm joined now by Abdul-Azim Ahmed, the Assistant Secretary General
:24:51. > :25:08.Would you say the Prevent strategy is working? I think, sadly, its
:25:09. > :25:12.success has been limited. We have seen from the Labour government as
:25:13. > :25:16.well as the Conservative government and in each case there has been
:25:17. > :25:21.resistant against it, criticisms, and when we look on the ground that
:25:22. > :25:26.success is few and far between. What is wrong with it? The strategy
:25:27. > :25:31.focuses on ideology at the exclusion of other factors. Focusing on
:25:32. > :25:38.ideology, what exactly does that mean in Cardiff, for example? There
:25:39. > :25:41.are several programmes that can be delivered. We are trying to tackle
:25:42. > :25:49.the messages coming from the extremists at a theological,
:25:50. > :25:59.religious level, and they will say their version of Islam is... But the
:26:00. > :26:03.triggers can be related to peer groups, they can be a sense of
:26:04. > :26:08.grievance, and unless we start having programmes which address
:26:09. > :26:11.these issues as well, it will only be partial coverage. David Cameron
:26:12. > :26:16.suggested earlier this year which is to the effect that there was a
:26:17. > :26:20.condoning, if you like, of this activity within the Muslim
:26:21. > :26:25.community. Do you think he has got a point? I think that is very unfair
:26:26. > :26:30.and it is not accurate. When we look at mosques and imams and the wider
:26:31. > :26:34.Muslim community, the condemnation of extremism has been very clear. In
:26:35. > :26:42.Cardiff, all the imams signed a letter with the theological
:26:43. > :26:46.reputation and it is something where there is very little debate. And it
:26:47. > :26:51.has got to come from there, hasn't it? If you are going to get at these
:26:52. > :26:55.people who are not going to engage with governments or any publicly
:26:56. > :27:01.funded organisations like Prevent, it has got to come from within the
:27:02. > :27:06.community. Partly, yes, but radicalisation is a social problem.
:27:07. > :27:10.It is taking place on the streets, in bedrooms, away from support
:27:11. > :27:15.structures, away from mosques and families, away from schools, so it
:27:16. > :27:18.needs the Government, mosques and religious leaders to be in
:27:19. > :27:22.communication and conversation to bring individuals back into the
:27:23. > :27:26.fold, background support structures that they are not with. Do you feel
:27:27. > :27:32.within the community now that there is a sense of surveillance, if not
:27:33. > :27:36.of spying, if you like, because that is the big criticism of the
:27:37. > :27:41.programme? You need people to say, I am worried about what he or she is
:27:42. > :27:45.up to. The University lecturers union boycotted Prevent for those
:27:46. > :27:49.reasons, they felt it was spying. It is a criticism that is felt very
:27:50. > :27:53.strongly among Muslims and one of the dangers of Prevent is that it
:27:54. > :27:59.can undermine the idea of safe spaces. That in a mosque or school,
:28:00. > :28:03.individuals can start discussing sensitive topics without feeling
:28:04. > :28:06.that is going to be reported. We have had some horrible examples of
:28:07. > :28:13.individual schoolchildren who been reported for simply mentioning
:28:14. > :28:17.eco-terrorism in a French class. That is preventing staff engaging,
:28:18. > :28:22.profession -- critically at the top levels. And as you say, there is
:28:23. > :28:25.blanket condemnation but do you have any sympathy with somebody sitting
:28:26. > :28:30.in a house may be in Cardiff, a young Muslim, totally
:28:31. > :28:35.disenfranchised, totally disengaged from community, no sense of
:28:36. > :28:40.belonging, they are watching videos of the caliphate, can use synthesise
:28:41. > :28:44.with the draw of that? Not really sympathise, the draw is the same,
:28:45. > :28:50.especially with young boys, as of the draw of gang violence and
:28:51. > :28:54.extreme forms of masculinity. They are being attracted to a message
:28:55. > :28:59.which is aimed at the age, aimed at individuals like them, and it is a
:29:00. > :29:04.multiplicity of factors, not just a sense of isolation, a sense of
:29:05. > :29:08.purpose they are being called to. Individuals who are most protected
:29:09. > :29:12.from this are those who have support structures, families and a strong
:29:13. > :29:16.sense of their theology. Those most bundle are the ones cut off from
:29:17. > :29:19.this. That is where the effort needs to come from everyone to Mitchell we
:29:20. > :29:24.are not leaving anyone on the fringes. Thank you very much.
:29:25. > :29:29.Thanks for watching, and if you want to get in touch about tonight's
:29:30. > :29:32.topics or anything else you think we should be discussing, the email