:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight on the Wales Report: Is business the new battleground
:00:00. > :00:07.between the UK and Welsh Governments ahead of the Assembly
:00:08. > :00:13.We hear claims that the Welsh Government's tuition fees policy
:00:14. > :00:20.should governments intervene to change behaviour?
:00:21. > :00:23.This man is bringing "nudge" to Wales, and he thinks it
:00:24. > :00:34.Some of the great challenges of our time and behavioural science looks
:00:35. > :00:36.like it has something to say about that.
:00:37. > :00:46.On tonight's programme, if the recent job losses
:00:47. > :00:48.at Tata Steel in Port Talbot have taught us anything,
:00:49. > :00:50.it's that business here and the welsh economy are often
:00:51. > :00:58.There have been constant calls for the UK and Welsh governments
:00:59. > :01:00.to work together to give Wales a voice in the international
:01:01. > :01:07.So we ask to what extent, if at all, both administrations
:01:08. > :01:11.are co-operating for the sake of the Welsh economy.
:01:12. > :01:14.And you can join in the debate on social media - the hashtag
:01:15. > :01:19.Tonight, we hear frustrations among business leaders in Wales that
:01:20. > :01:21.delivering key infrastructure projects like the M4 relief road
:01:22. > :01:24.and improvements to the A55 in North Wales are taking
:01:25. > :01:29.Our Business correspondent, Brian Meechan, asks if political
:01:30. > :01:32.squabbles and point scoring too often get in the way of what's good
:01:33. > :01:52.In a global economy, business does not respect national boundaries. The
:01:53. > :01:57.Welsh border with England is open when it comes to trade with goods
:01:58. > :02:01.services and workers moving between the two countries daily. The
:02:02. > :02:07.question is our our politicians drawing false battle lines between
:02:08. > :02:12.the two sides? Here in Chepstow, Wales is separated from England by
:02:13. > :02:16.this river. It might seem perfectly tranquil but skirmishes between the
:02:17. > :02:20.UK and Welsh governments over education and health in recent years
:02:21. > :02:28.have caused tensions and ministers on both sides of the border say that
:02:29. > :02:32.they are the truly progress this governments. What is your plan for a
:02:33. > :02:35.stronger Wales? If after 16 years in power you cannot provide one thing
:02:36. > :02:40.quite simply it is time for a change. For the first time ever
:02:41. > :02:45.Wales is bouncing back from recession faster than regions of
:02:46. > :02:50.England. Employment is at a record high. Foreign direct investment is
:02:51. > :02:54.at record levels. That is what we can do as Labour in government. The
:02:55. > :03:00.Conservatives believe they can build on accusations that Labour under Ed
:03:01. > :03:03.Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn became anti-business and since the General
:03:04. > :03:11.Election that Carwyn Jones has been at pains to emphasise Welsh Labour's
:03:12. > :03:16.pro business position. If business is the new battle ground, what
:03:17. > :03:19.impact does that have on Wales? In terms of attracting companies and
:03:20. > :03:25.business to settle here and selling the country to the rest of the UK
:03:26. > :03:30.and the world. What do firms on the Welsh side of the border as they? A
:03:31. > :03:35.recent survey found that three quarters of people running companies
:03:36. > :03:40.thought devolution had failed to deliver. Mark Hooper agrees. He
:03:41. > :03:45.founded his company five years ago and the company provides space for
:03:46. > :03:49.start-up firms across Wales. I think they keeping from a business
:03:50. > :03:53.perspective is recognition from all sides that what has happened to
:03:54. > :03:59.Wales for too long is not working. The support that we have got is not
:04:00. > :04:03.driving business growth or GDA, so stop doing the things that do not
:04:04. > :04:07.work and perhaps listen to people who are making it happen and I would
:04:08. > :04:12.rather see politicians turn up and walk into places and start talking
:04:13. > :04:17.to entrepreneurs and that will make a difference. This man has become
:04:18. > :04:21.chair of CBI Wales this month and he says it is time for more frank
:04:22. > :04:25.talking from businesses. I know people are scared to speak out
:04:26. > :04:31.because when they do they are criticised. I will get criticised
:04:32. > :04:35.but we have to start doing things differently. CBI Wales is message in
:04:36. > :04:39.the run-up to the election is clear. Mike whose exports products
:04:40. > :04:44.worldwide says businesses are increasingly frustrated with both
:04:45. > :04:49.governments arguing about the NHS or devolving powers rather than dealing
:04:50. > :04:54.with issues like the M4 and Severn Bridge tolls. We have been obsessed
:04:55. > :04:57.by Wales in the context of Wales and not Wales in the context of the
:04:58. > :05:02.world. There seems to be fighting over what powers we have or have not
:05:03. > :05:09.got, we have lots of powers, use the ones we have got and make a
:05:10. > :05:13.difference. I think that politics is in a mess, it has got tangled up, it
:05:14. > :05:20.has not got much to do with the reality any more of what we in Wales
:05:21. > :05:23.need. Why are we not copying the best practice? Look that
:05:24. > :05:26.infrastructure and services, yes it is making it difficult for big
:05:27. > :05:30.companies to come here and I think that is really worrying but it will
:05:31. > :05:34.not take much, a bit of political courage and leadership and we can
:05:35. > :05:40.start reversing that and making it better. The former director of CBI
:05:41. > :05:43.Wales who was in post during the devolution referendum in 1997 says
:05:44. > :05:49.that governments need to provide stability. There are two things that
:05:50. > :05:54.business generally and individual businesses want and that is
:05:55. > :05:59.certainty, does not like lots of change and the second is it wants to
:06:00. > :06:04.make sure that all of the infrastructure around, whether it is
:06:05. > :06:08.transport or digital is in place so that it can continue to do its
:06:09. > :06:12.business and do its commerce and the lot of believers around,
:06:13. > :06:16.particularly true -- travel does not belong to the Welsh Government and
:06:17. > :06:20.it is taking far too long to try and deliver what we need to help to grow
:06:21. > :06:26.business in Wales. Yes, political issues and particularly the
:06:27. > :06:30.regularity of elections is always going to have an impact on those
:06:31. > :06:34.sorts of decisions but I think what is important is to have a strategic
:06:35. > :06:39.approach that you know where you're trying to get to even if there are
:06:40. > :06:44.delays in reaching that objective. As the election battle begins in
:06:45. > :06:50.earnest it may be too much to ask politicians to avoid point-scoring
:06:51. > :06:53.on major the clear message from businesses is that they need to be
:06:54. > :06:58.aware of the damage that can do to the country in the long term.
:06:59. > :07:06.Joining me now is Denise Lovering and Dan Langford. Thank you for
:07:07. > :07:13.coming in, Denise if I can start with you, as a businesswoman in
:07:14. > :07:17.Wales are you frustrated with both administrations? Yes. Business in
:07:18. > :07:20.Wales would like a level playing field, both sets of government to
:07:21. > :07:26.talk and do the same thing. If I could pick up on what Elizabeth said
:07:27. > :07:30.in the clip and Mike, transport is a prime example. There is no real
:07:31. > :07:35.physical barrier between Wales and England but we have so much problem
:07:36. > :07:40.with the Severn bridge and the M4 relief road, both governments could
:07:41. > :07:45.work together and do something now. What is the problem? Is a devolution
:07:46. > :07:50.or the system or the fact that there are different colours at both ends
:07:51. > :07:55.of the M4? They should overcome that, sort it out, business need you
:07:56. > :08:00.to be talking on the same sheet. Do you see it as black-and-white as
:08:01. > :08:03.that? Not quite. There is potentially an issue with devolution
:08:04. > :08:09.were we have to avoid the possibility of holding opportunities
:08:10. > :08:15.and new initiatives up because we are Wales and we have to rethink it
:08:16. > :08:18.again. Sometimes if there is closer negotiation and engagement between
:08:19. > :08:21.the two governments we might be able to get some decisions made quicker
:08:22. > :08:28.and that is where the frustration would be. It is not the projects, we
:08:29. > :08:31.are spending three years discussing the same thing. There are two sets
:08:32. > :08:36.of hands on the wheel. Does that mean that they cannot take their eye
:08:37. > :08:41.off the road because there is competition and it is good or does
:08:42. > :08:47.it lead to endless point-scoring? I think so. It causes total
:08:48. > :08:51.frustration. In business you cannot take time to decide, if you decide
:08:52. > :08:54.to do something by the very nature of the fact you're running a
:08:55. > :08:59.business and going forward, you have to make a decision quickly. Would it
:09:00. > :09:01.be easier to run your business in England? I have no knowledge of
:09:02. > :09:06.running their business in England apart from the fact we have depots
:09:07. > :09:11.in England and the only problem we have is paying the toll when they
:09:12. > :09:14.come back. I do not think it is that black-and-white, there are
:09:15. > :09:18.frustrations and we can take some of the major infrastructure projects
:09:19. > :09:21.from a business perspective we generally feel things are taking too
:09:22. > :09:25.long but there are lots of things that have been happening that had
:09:26. > :09:28.Devenney shown there is an engagement between the governments
:09:29. > :09:34.which have been good for Wales and we can talk about the work with the
:09:35. > :09:37.Cardiff City deal, there are lots of complexity is behind-the-scenes and
:09:38. > :09:41.there are bits of political posturing, but ultimately everyone
:09:42. > :09:44.is pointing in the same direction and trying to get this through as
:09:45. > :09:50.the Chancellor said before the March budget. The football European
:09:51. > :09:55.Championships in 2017 coming to Cardiff would not have happened
:09:56. > :09:59.without total engagement and dialogue between the two governments
:10:00. > :10:02.because some of the restrictions and recommendations, the requirement
:10:03. > :10:11.that Uefa needed, the Welsh Government is not in a position to
:10:12. > :10:14.give those. That is another debate. The big levers remain in
:10:15. > :10:20.Westminster, the smaller levers are here, would you like to see more
:10:21. > :10:24.leaders in Wales? That is a difficult question. I am not happy
:10:25. > :10:28.with the way they have use the leverage they have got. Devolving
:10:29. > :10:33.more powers I am not sure is very good. If ministers were here now,
:10:34. > :10:38.what do Welsh businesses need? What I would like to see is a commitment
:10:39. > :10:44.from the government who may be in power in Wales act are made to say
:10:45. > :10:48.that they will carry on with the M4 relief road. We have two sets of
:10:49. > :10:54.elections, we might have a referendum as well, there is a novel
:10:55. > :10:59.lot of electioneering on the calendar. And it is painful. The
:11:00. > :11:06.urgency, commitment, that is what we need. From both governments. Whether
:11:07. > :11:09.one government might be more in a position to get decision-making
:11:10. > :11:16.quicker than the other depending on the project, I do not know, but we
:11:17. > :11:18.need that urgency and conviction, the decision-making about the
:11:19. > :11:21.economy and infrastructure and business support will never please
:11:22. > :11:27.everyone, let us just get on with it, that is what we need. I think we
:11:28. > :11:30.have got so far, there has been engagement between the two
:11:31. > :11:35.governments, it has got better. There is still a way to go. There is
:11:36. > :11:49.still point-scoring going on and that should stop. Thank you both
:11:50. > :11:54.very much. We are looking at How Wales Works. Higher education has
:11:55. > :11:58.caused a great deal of controversy. Particularly Jewish and fees. The
:11:59. > :12:02.Welsh Education Minister has said he intends to keep tuition fee grants
:12:03. > :12:08.for Welsh tunes were they decide to study. That is despite concerns that
:12:09. > :12:12.the policy could be taking money away from universities here in
:12:13. > :12:20.Wales. The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales says there is less
:12:21. > :12:28.money in their budget to put towards Welsh institutions. During the
:12:29. > :12:32.academic year 2011 to 2012, Welsh universities got ?367 million. This
:12:33. > :12:38.year, that funding has dropped by more than half to 151 William
:12:39. > :12:42.pounds. That figure could drop further to ?87 million next year and
:12:43. > :12:48.this is all fuelling a fierce debate. In the last few days, the
:12:49. > :12:53.Education Minister pledged his continued support for the policy of
:12:54. > :12:57.subsidising tuition fees for Welsh students. It comes back to that
:12:58. > :13:02.principle, what are they primarily investing in and my argument would
:13:03. > :13:08.be that it is the life chances of the young person. That takes
:13:09. > :13:12.primacy, even over the very real priorities that you need to address
:13:13. > :13:18.around the institutions. The universities themselves. That did
:13:19. > :13:25.not please the vice Chancellor of the largest Welsh university.
:13:26. > :13:32.The policy I think is holding us back. There is a solution to that
:13:33. > :13:36.which we propose which just as maintenance grants and means tested
:13:37. > :13:40.goes to those who really need them the most, if you took the same
:13:41. > :13:45.approach to tuition fee grants, you could free up considerable funding
:13:46. > :13:49.to allow Welsh universities to compete in the same way as other
:13:50. > :13:54.universities in the UK and that is really critical to our future as a
:13:55. > :14:02.country. There is a concern this policy will have an increasing
:14:03. > :14:05.impact on Welsh universities. Student number controls have been
:14:06. > :14:11.removed. There is no limit to the Nebraska does that have -- that can
:14:12. > :14:14.go to university. And what that means is there is just not enough
:14:15. > :14:23.money to fund Welsh universities. The latest draft government budget
:14:24. > :14:27.proposals were in visiting a cut of 40% to funding for Welsh
:14:28. > :14:35.universities starting in August. We have had no one in this. We have to
:14:36. > :14:39.make plans to try to achieve that in a short timescale. It will cost
:14:40. > :14:42.jobs, affect students and staff within the university and it will
:14:43. > :14:48.cost jobs outside the university as well. We are told there is going to
:14:49. > :14:51.be a cut of 40%, it could be more, in the next year. We need to plan
:14:52. > :14:54.for that but we also need to plan for what comes afterwards. It would
:14:55. > :14:57.be very helpful if the government could be more specific about what is
:14:58. > :15:01.going to happen in the future and whatever happens to wish on fee
:15:02. > :15:07.grants, the critical part is the government needs to make sure that
:15:08. > :15:10.enough money is still available to fund all the areas that tuition fees
:15:11. > :15:15.cannot fund and that means they can sure that the funding is available
:15:16. > :15:18.for Welsh universities to be the great success they have been over
:15:19. > :15:23.the last few years. The future could at sea of the people of Wales relies
:15:24. > :15:27.on an economy and it is the universities that are building that
:15:28. > :15:30.economy. A Welsh Government spokesperson said there is no doubt
:15:31. > :15:34.we have had to make some tough decisions between -- within this
:15:35. > :15:58.budget and we recognise that a cut to HEFCW will present challenges.
:15:59. > :16:05.Joining me now is Nick Ramsay and Beth button. Why do you think that
:16:06. > :16:08.the current system is fair? The first question we have to ask
:16:09. > :16:12.ourselves is is it fair that students should be leaving with this
:16:13. > :16:18.amount of debt. Does the current system recognise that the benefits
:16:19. > :16:22.that a society and individuals get from higher education, the cost
:16:23. > :16:32.should be shared by the society and individual. It is good for Welsh
:16:33. > :16:34.students. Wherever they study, they get the money but what about the
:16:35. > :16:39.universities which suffer because lots of the money is going across
:16:40. > :16:43.the border? We need to be clear that this money is lost from
:16:44. > :16:47.universities. It is misleading. It makes sure that a student is making
:16:48. > :16:53.a choice that is right for them and not the cost. This idea, we have to
:16:54. > :16:59.be clear that issues of competitivity and quality existing
:17:00. > :17:02.before this was introduced. This idea of graduates going across the
:17:03. > :17:08.border, it is one we need to address but we should be supporting students
:17:09. > :17:12.and incentivising them to come back. Bringing them back and then we will
:17:13. > :17:18.see a return on that investment. Nick Ramsay, this division, if the
:17:19. > :17:20.money does go with the students across the border, it is not going
:17:21. > :17:26.to Welsh universities. It is misleading question mark no one
:17:27. > :17:30.wants students to be leaving university with debt. We want to
:17:31. > :17:35.keep that down but the policy is unsustainable. The review has
:17:36. > :17:39.revealed it will not be able to be continued beyond the next election
:17:40. > :17:43.for any length of time. We need to look now at ways of properly funding
:17:44. > :17:50.students in a way that will benefit them. The Welsh Conservatives would
:17:51. > :17:54.target the resources for those students that needed most. Whether
:17:55. > :17:56.they are studying in England or in Wales, we would make sure the
:17:57. > :18:03.students that need our support at it. Which is the system across the
:18:04. > :18:07.border, isn't it? We have seen the figures from a steady at Edinburgh
:18:08. > :18:14.University, retention and accesses broader in England than it is in
:18:15. > :18:17.Wales and Scotland. Actually some recent 's research shows that for
:18:18. > :18:25.the first time in many years the access has actually dropped in
:18:26. > :18:31.England as a result of the policy. Edinburgh University has found that
:18:32. > :18:36.access in England is better. We have to look at the access... It is
:18:37. > :18:39.targeted by a support system that enables choice for all students
:18:40. > :18:43.regardless of their background. Of course we think that targeting
:18:44. > :18:48.support where it is necessary is important but we have to look at it
:18:49. > :18:51.as a wider thing. It is not just about a tuition fee policy. We think
:18:52. > :18:56.the Welsh Government should go further. We want to see this
:18:57. > :19:00.principle extended through increased investment across the board. Maybe
:19:01. > :19:05.the Welsh Government have got it right. In an ideal world, I would
:19:06. > :19:08.agree with that but the funding simply is not there. We know that
:19:09. > :19:12.budgets are tight at the moment and over ?1 billion has gone into this
:19:13. > :19:18.policy. The many are simply not there. The other big to pick up on
:19:19. > :19:21.access in England, last week, the Westminster government scrapped the
:19:22. > :19:25.maintenance grants for the poorest students. They are now graduating
:19:26. > :19:29.with even more debt than their wealthier counterparts. That is
:19:30. > :19:34.actually a very important point. It is not just about tuition fees. A
:19:35. > :19:39.lot of students are suffering because of cuts to maintenance
:19:40. > :19:42.grants. We would be better off looking at tuition fees and looking
:19:43. > :19:48.at maintenance grants. If you were to win in May, your party, what sort
:19:49. > :19:50.of difference would students see question mark it would not be across
:19:51. > :19:55.the board coverage. We would target those students that need the
:19:56. > :19:58.support. Whether they are studying England and sometimes they have to
:19:59. > :20:03.because of the courses, or study on this side of the border, they would
:20:04. > :20:06.get the support. But we have to recognise we cannot fund everything.
:20:07. > :20:13.Is there not a danger you are being idealistic Castle Market if
:20:14. > :20:23.universities are going to see further cuts, where is the research
:20:24. > :20:26.going to happen? We are concerned about that. I think we have to
:20:27. > :20:34.recognise that there is a choice about where the money is invested in
:20:35. > :20:36.the budget. It would relieve this competition. I do not like the fact
:20:37. > :20:41.we are deciding whether higher education deserves a better cut --
:20:42. > :20:46.bigger cut this year or further education. It is a bit ago choice.
:20:47. > :20:50.It would enable us to direct investment into all forms of
:20:51. > :20:59.education. The student lobby is a powerful lobby. It is a very bold
:21:00. > :21:02.party that will mess with this lot. Yes, I think it probably is that at
:21:03. > :21:05.the end of the day, we are just being written -- realistic. The
:21:06. > :21:10.universities are saying this as well. They feel that they are not
:21:11. > :21:16.getting the sort of support they need. Hopefully we can come forward
:21:17. > :21:25.with a policy that will do the necessary.
:21:26. > :21:29.The Behavioural Insights Team, more widely known as the Nudge Unit,
:21:30. > :21:32.was set up by David Cameron back in 2010 to advise the Government
:21:33. > :21:34.on how to improve public services and save money.
:21:35. > :21:37.Applying insights from behavioural psychology, the team aims to give us
:21:38. > :21:40.all messages to help us make the best choices in many
:21:41. > :21:42.aspects of our lives, from getting a job to what we eat.
:21:43. > :21:46.And now the Welsh Government has asked the unit to start work here.
:21:47. > :21:48.In a moment, the Welsh Government minister responsible will be joining
:21:49. > :21:51.us, but first let's hear from the director of the unit,
:21:52. > :21:57.David Halpern, about the art of nudging.
:21:58. > :21:59.A lot of policy issues concern human behaviour.
:22:00. > :22:02.It is about people eating more healthily or committing less crime
:22:03. > :22:04.or being effective in schools, in terms of how hard kids study
:22:05. > :22:08.By introducing a more realistic of human behaviour,
:22:09. > :22:10.it often leads to different kinds of solutions which don't necessarily
:22:11. > :22:13.involve regulation or spending lots of money and it turns out
:22:14. > :22:22.The big issue, getting people into work faster.
:22:23. > :22:24.We went into job centres to understand what is that process,
:22:25. > :22:27.we made some relatively simple changes on the face of it,
:22:28. > :22:35.we were able to get people back to work much faster.
:22:36. > :22:38.So for example, for 30 odd years, we have been asking people
:22:39. > :22:41.in the job centre, you have to show that you are looking for work,
:22:42. > :22:44.so what three jobs did you look for last week?
:22:45. > :22:46.Psychologically, we think that is not as good as doing
:22:47. > :22:48.something different, which is asking people,
:22:49. > :22:53.And to ask them in quite concrete terms where are you going to look,
:22:54. > :22:56.what kind of thing you looking for, what time of day, after I have
:22:57. > :23:01.If you ask people about the future instead of the past,
:23:02. > :23:04.it turns out they are much more likely to get into work faster.
:23:05. > :23:06.They just become more effective in their searches.
:23:07. > :23:08.We notice in job centres that quite often people,
:23:09. > :23:10.even when they were booked in by the job centre,
:23:11. > :23:13.to have an interview the next weekend, only one in ten people
:23:14. > :23:17.would turn up, so we ran a trial, we were giving texts to tell them
:23:18. > :23:19.you have been booked into this thing.
:23:20. > :23:21.If you add the person's name, it goes from 10% to 15%.
:23:22. > :23:24.If you add my name, the job centre adviser,
:23:25. > :23:27.If you have one line in there to say, I have
:23:28. > :23:30.booked your place, good luck, it goes up to nearly
:23:31. > :23:33.Introducing psychology and humanity to the exchange can have a huge
:23:34. > :23:37.One of the key points to understand information is not
:23:38. > :23:41.People sort of know things but there are lots of other things
:23:42. > :23:44.that are driving our behaviour when we eat so we are often not
:23:45. > :23:48.Plate size, enormously, how big your plates are at home
:23:49. > :23:51.influences how much you eat, how big the portion sizes,
:23:52. > :23:53.the bigger the boxes, the more food you will eat,
:23:54. > :24:02.The way in which food is presented in a school,
:24:03. > :24:04.what comes first, the salad or the chips?
:24:05. > :24:06.These things turn out to be incredibly powerful influences
:24:07. > :24:12.There is a lot of reason to think that this will be driven
:24:13. > :24:13.by local innovation, rather than just national
:24:14. > :24:16.prescribing, partly because people do not want national government
:24:17. > :24:18.saying this is how big your plate size can be.
:24:19. > :24:21.But you can well imagine communities can shape for example how many
:24:22. > :24:23.fast-food outlets are around the school, what is the food
:24:24. > :24:27.You can imagine a community being able to mobilise on some
:24:28. > :24:30.of the things and actually making a very big difference,
:24:31. > :24:32.probably more effectively sometimes than a national government saying
:24:33. > :24:35.Some of the great challenges of our time, behavioural science
:24:36. > :24:38.looks like it has got something to say on that so obesity
:24:39. > :24:40.and lifestyle issues, it actually includes
:24:41. > :24:50.People sometimes forget but a lot of what happens in the economy
:24:51. > :24:58.is essentially psychological, confidence.
:24:59. > :25:05.What do you think everybody else is doing?
:25:06. > :25:08.That affects whether you decide to employ another person or not,
:25:09. > :25:12.so yes, we think that it is up to some of the big challenges on us,
:25:13. > :25:18.a lot of the focus of our work these days.
:25:19. > :25:22.I'm joined now by the Minister for Public Services,
:25:23. > :25:38.To what extent are you nudging us at the moment in Wales? I think we are
:25:39. > :25:40.starting to nudge a bit more but I think there are ways in which
:25:41. > :25:45.government always nudge in any case. David rightly referred to health
:25:46. > :25:51.issues for example and clearly we seek to encourage people to smoke
:25:52. > :25:56.less, to eat more healthily, to drink more wisely. So there are
:25:57. > :26:01.those traditional areas of government but what has been
:26:02. > :26:05.interesting from the work of the behavioural insights team as they
:26:06. > :26:10.have also targeted quite concrete economic and social policy issues as
:26:11. > :26:16.well. You mentioned smoking. That is not nudging. That is a ban. A ban on
:26:17. > :26:21.smoking in public places. A ban on smoking in cars with children. That
:26:22. > :26:27.is not nudging. Many would say that is more nannying. It is a fine line.
:26:28. > :26:31.I think there are different courses for different courses. I think we
:26:32. > :26:38.know that the work that was done in respect of a ban on smoking in
:26:39. > :26:42.public places has led to impact on behaviour. We have laws in place for
:26:43. > :26:47.example on discrimination which have changed public behaviour but what is
:26:48. > :26:52.quite clever here I think is that the work of the behavioural analysis
:26:53. > :26:55.goes to areas where government has not traditionally been able to
:26:56. > :27:02.reach, with things like regulation or spending. And instinctively as a
:27:03. > :27:07.minister, are you more of a nanny or a nudge? I think there is a
:27:08. > :27:11.correlation that you need. It is right that we have regulations
:27:12. > :27:17.against his commission. It is right that people can breathe clean air.
:27:18. > :27:21.Those things are important. I think you have got to stop this binary
:27:22. > :27:26.divide. It is not a binary divide. There is a room for nudging and
:27:27. > :27:29.there is a route for regulation. Give us an example of where you
:27:30. > :27:35.would like to nudge Western Mark it has to be settled? I would like to
:27:36. > :27:39.see improvements in voter registration rates amongst those
:27:40. > :27:42.under 25 for example. I would like to see an improvement in council tax
:27:43. > :27:49.payment levels. Those are areas where we will six ball work with the
:27:50. > :27:55.team in the future. That is work... I am not the expert on this. There
:27:56. > :28:00.are people with the experience who can tell us. We have brought the
:28:01. > :28:03.team into the Welsh Government, we are starting work with them at the
:28:04. > :28:07.present time. They have got insights, they have done good work
:28:08. > :28:11.for the UK Government and they have done good work for the Inland
:28:12. > :28:15.Revenue and others and we want to see what we can learn from that. The
:28:16. > :28:21.whole ethos of nudging is that we as citizens are meant to know we are
:28:22. > :28:24.being nudged. Once we know, does it feel question mark it appears to be
:28:25. > :28:30.working in the areas that the team has targeted in the recent past. I
:28:31. > :28:33.think we are all subject to nudging. We know that the big supermarkets
:28:34. > :28:39.are seeking to nudge our behaviour all the time. What we are trained to
:28:40. > :28:45.do here is work with the grain of human nature and identify ways in
:28:46. > :28:47.which policies can be better explained to people, put in terms
:28:48. > :28:52.they understand and respond positively to. The beauty of nudging
:28:53. > :28:56.is it is cheap. Sometimes it generates a real return. If you
:28:57. > :29:01.speak to the team and the Inland Revenue about the way in which they
:29:02. > :29:03.have improved tax collection rates, for example, we are talking about
:29:04. > :29:09.tens of millions of pounds being collected. And if you do for me next
:29:10. > :29:14.didn't -- administration, you would go big on nudging, would you tell us
:29:15. > :29:18.we are by Ian nudged? I am telling you now. There is nothing secret
:29:19. > :29:27.here. We brought the team into talk to us. They spoke at our summit.
:29:28. > :29:30.David spoke in November. And I know that people in local government, the
:29:31. > :29:33.health service and others have been impressed by what they have heard
:29:34. > :29:36.and are talking with them. Thank you very much.
:29:37. > :29:39.If you'd like to get in touch with us:
:29:40. > :29:42.We'll be back next week, but until then, thanks for watching.
:29:43. > :30:15.Let your New Year start with a bang and visit an explosive new China.