:00:00. > :00:07.Tonight, on the Wales Report, why are fewer children in Wales
:00:08. > :00:21.We hear concerns that Welsh schoolchildren are missing out.
:00:22. > :00:22.Plans take shape to reform Britain's relationship
:00:23. > :00:31.with the European Union, but what does it all mean for Wales?
:00:32. > :00:33.And claims from a top economist that the current
:00:34. > :00:35.devolution settlement makes Wales impossible to govern.
:00:36. > :00:38.Good evening and welcome to the Wales Report.
:00:39. > :00:42.According to research by the British Council,
:00:43. > :00:53.there has been a steep decline in the number of pupils learning
:00:54. > :00:56.modern foreign languages in schools over the last ten years.
:00:57. > :00:58.And, in a country where for many, bilingualism is the norm,
:00:59. > :01:01.there are concerns that this low uptake of foreign languages could be
:01:02. > :01:06.Remember, you can join in the conversation on social media.
:01:07. > :01:08.As part of BBC Wales' How Wales Works season,
:01:09. > :01:20.Felicity Evans has gone back to school.
:01:21. > :01:30.It is great to learn another language.
:01:31. > :01:35.I think it would really help me in University.
:01:36. > :01:38.They would open different doors and I would be able to speak
:01:39. > :01:40.to new people as well as people in my own culture.
:01:41. > :01:43.I would be able to experience other peoples' culture.
:01:44. > :01:47.It would also help for holiday, so when you go to speak to them
:01:48. > :01:49.in their own language, it will be useful.
:01:50. > :01:52.I chose languages as I believe that in the future, when I go to apply
:01:53. > :01:56.for jobs and staff, they are more likely to employ someone who speaks
:01:57. > :01:58.a second language than someone who can speak one.
:01:59. > :02:00.These pupils at this comprehensive in Barry do not need convincing
:02:01. > :02:03.about the importance of learning a modern foreign language.
:02:04. > :02:07.There has been a steep decline in pupils choosing to study
:02:08. > :02:12.languages at GCSE level and beyond over the last decade.
:02:13. > :02:15.A recent report for the British Council found that Wales has
:02:16. > :02:19.the lowest take-up of all of the UK home nations.
:02:20. > :02:22.The author of this report says it is a grim situation.
:02:23. > :02:27.The last ten years, the number of students taking French and German
:02:28. > :02:31.at GCSE has about halved, slightly more than halved.
:02:32. > :02:42.It looks like there is 20% of pupils now taking up
:02:43. > :02:47.For Wales' place in the world, and the preparation that Welsh
:02:48. > :02:49.children have for life in the global economy.
:02:50. > :03:01.And for many potential employers, securing Wales' place in the global
:03:02. > :03:03.economy involves being able to recruit workers
:03:04. > :03:09.Creditsafe has offices in Caerphilly and Cardiff,
:03:10. > :03:12.as well as nine other countries around the world.
:03:13. > :03:23.But the decline in language learning means that the local language talent
:03:24. > :03:27.I think it is true to say that the number of people
:03:28. > :03:32.that we recruit now compared to ten years ago, the number of people
:03:33. > :03:34.who have taken modern foreign languages right the way
:03:35. > :03:38.level or even beyond that, that number has fallen,
:03:39. > :03:41.and of course, it is a sad reflection, because what we want is,
:03:42. > :03:43.when we have people open to those opportunities,
:03:44. > :03:45.we can give them support, we can provide additional language
:03:46. > :03:51.We don't expect people to know everything, but if they have taken
:03:52. > :03:53.modern foreign languages up to a certain level,
:03:54. > :03:57.they are more open and able to take those things on in the future.
:03:58. > :03:59.With offices all round Europe, there are always opportunities.
:04:00. > :04:02.We have people that started working here on the telephone in Caerphilly,
:04:03. > :04:04.who are now working in our operations across Europe.
:04:05. > :04:07.The manager of our sales division in Germany works in Berlin,
:04:08. > :04:09.and he started on the phones here in South Wales.
:04:10. > :04:11.One of the particularly disappointing things
:04:12. > :04:13.about the decline in modern foreign languages in Wales over the last
:04:14. > :04:16.decade is that we are squandering a natural advantage.
:04:17. > :04:21.There is plenty of evidence to suggest that being bilingual
:04:22. > :04:24.makes it much easier to learn a third or even fourth language.
:04:25. > :04:29.Here at this school, they are harnessing the power
:04:30. > :04:40.of Welsh by joining modern foreign languages to it to in one faculty.
:04:41. > :04:45.The school's enthusiasm for modern foreign languages,
:04:46. > :04:49.or MFL, and its good results, have made it a key part of the Welsh
:04:50. > :04:50.government's attempts to rescue the subject.
:04:51. > :04:52.They set up regional centres of excellence.
:04:53. > :04:54.This school is the one for South Wales Central.
:04:55. > :04:56.It is to share good practice and drive improvement
:04:57. > :04:59.Amy Walters Bresner is the regional languages coordinator.
:05:00. > :05:03.In languages, we teach the skills of reading,
:05:04. > :05:12.And that skill is what employers aren't looking for.
:05:13. > :05:21.And we have almost forgot about that, I think,
:05:22. > :05:23.whereas now, the spotlight is on MFL.
:05:24. > :05:26.I think we have a place in modern society today to make language
:05:27. > :05:42.The Welsh government's new push on modern foreign languages
:05:43. > :05:44.languages is generating excitement within the sector.
:05:45. > :05:48.It only started in September, and there is a lot of ground
:05:49. > :05:51.But how will any progress be measured?
:05:52. > :05:54.Experts say it is difficult to get figures on how Welsh schools
:05:55. > :05:56.are doing an take-up and performance, and there are calls
:05:57. > :05:59.to use the schools inspectorate took monitor the situation better.
:06:00. > :06:01.At the moment, language does not have any special status little
:06:02. > :06:04.in the performance measures, and it is quite difficult to get
:06:05. > :06:07.information about the number of pupils who are taking a foreign
:06:08. > :06:10.I think they could do more to monitor what is happening,
:06:11. > :06:12.and to publish figures, and to hold schools responsible
:06:13. > :06:15.through ESTIN and around the proportions of pupils that take
:06:16. > :06:21.a language at GCSE and the standards that they reach.
:06:22. > :06:23.The education minister, Hugh Lewis, is stepping down at the election.
:06:24. > :06:29.So it will be up to his successor to see through the new initiative
:06:30. > :06:32.Without effective action, it looks like their viability
:06:33. > :06:34.in schools across Wales will be at risk.
:06:35. > :06:42.Education Minister Hugh Lewis was unavailable for interview,
:06:43. > :06:53.but how Welsh government spokesman told the Welsh report that they want
:06:54. > :06:56.more young people to learn foreign languages and benefit
:06:57. > :07:07.The Minister has introduced Global Futures, a five year
:07:08. > :07:08.strategy to improve the take-up and teaching
:07:09. > :07:12.Joining me now is Professor Claire Gorrara, head of modern languages
:07:13. > :07:17.Why do think there is this decline in the take-up of foreign
:07:18. > :07:21.I think it links firstly to a sense of doing a language
:07:22. > :07:24.Looking at the results, we do very well in Wales in terms
:07:25. > :07:31.I think it is also linked to a sense that parents aren't always aware
:07:32. > :07:32.of the intercultural benefits of learning languages,
:07:33. > :07:38.not just the linguistic skills but the world more generally.
:07:39. > :07:41.And also, I think about curriculum time, and the way it has
:07:42. > :07:43.been set up in the curriculum by the Welsh school system.
:07:44. > :07:45.This decline that the British Council sought was also seen
:07:46. > :07:49.But is it fair to say that they acted sooner?
:07:50. > :07:52.They put the brake on a bit sooner, they made it more compulsory
:07:53. > :07:57.Is Wales a bit slow in trying to right a wrong here?
:07:58. > :07:59.I think certainly within England and Scotland, there was a sense
:08:00. > :08:01.for international competitiveness, the need to educate students
:08:02. > :08:06.from a very early age, with modern foreign languages.
:08:07. > :08:08.It is for greater economic outward visibility and profile.
:08:09. > :08:12.In Wales, there has been a slow start, but I am keen and optimistic
:08:13. > :08:16.about the new partnership we are operating.
:08:17. > :08:19.Again, Wales behind the curve for you, and Wales taking its eye
:08:20. > :08:24.I think partly, because we have had a different approach in terms
:08:25. > :08:27.of the school system, obviously devolution plays a part,
:08:28. > :08:38.but it is about looking a new way to approach it,
:08:39. > :08:41.following a period of a lack of focus on modern foreign-language
:08:42. > :08:43.is, looking at stem subjects and the importance
:08:44. > :08:46.And they are taking their eye off the ball.
:08:47. > :08:52.Looking at it now, there is a real strong awareness that it is a very
:08:53. > :08:54.Global Futures, this strategy, ?500,000 are available
:08:55. > :09:01.One, it is creating a strong model of partnership between universities
:09:02. > :09:04.and secondary schools, visual consortia and the Welsh government.
:09:05. > :09:06.Two, there are some new things developing that are coming along,
:09:07. > :09:09.school students under understanding the value of languages.
:09:10. > :09:14.Wales very proud of it bilingual heritage, and many see it
:09:15. > :09:29.Are there those who think well, hang on, Little John
:09:30. > :09:35.They don't have time to do something on top?
:09:36. > :09:39.In many ways, we have to try and reflect on Welsh as a second
:09:40. > :09:42.language can really improve the take-up of an, to improve
:09:43. > :09:43.language skills across one or two languages.
:09:44. > :09:46.We have a heritage language, it may come from a different
:09:47. > :09:49.We have students with a wonderful multilingual skills,
:09:50. > :09:59.We heard about job opportunities there, and the benefits of
:10:00. > :10:03.languages. There are those who say forget French and German, let's do
:10:04. > :10:09.Arabic and Urdu and Chinese. Is that the way forward? Any language from
:10:10. > :10:15.the very early age has a wonderful impact on your brain synapses. It
:10:16. > :10:20.helps the way your brain competes. Having that second or third language
:10:21. > :10:26.as a learning experience early on is a key thing. Looking forward to the
:10:27. > :10:30.Welsh economy, the Spanish and Chinese art ain't much more visible
:10:31. > :10:34.on the global stage. I had any language has a wonderful impact on
:10:35. > :10:38.linguistic ability and international awareness. It is take-up is not
:10:39. > :10:43.reversed, what will be the impact for Wales? It will make Wales less
:10:44. > :10:49.globally competitive. They will not be able to secure jobs in
:10:50. > :10:55.multinational countries within Wales. -- companies within Wales. It
:10:56. > :10:59.will be a lack of broadened horizons. So the message to
:11:00. > :11:05.ministers is to get this right, and quickly. We send up 40
:11:06. > :11:15.undergraduates to schools across Wales to mentor people at GCSE 's.
:11:16. > :11:20.We are working on a pan-Wales initiative. Thank you very much.
:11:21. > :11:23.Whatever language -- in whatever language, the debate over Europe is
:11:24. > :11:26.suddenly going to be lively. When you have details on a potential deal
:11:27. > :11:32.on the potential relationship between the UK and the rest of the
:11:33. > :11:38.European Union. David Cameron is setting out his terms in
:11:39. > :11:42.Westminster. If we stay, we will be protecting our rebate, stripping
:11:43. > :11:47.away unnecessary regulation, and is stepping up our commitments. We will
:11:48. > :11:57.truly have the best of both worlds. The draft deal by Donald Tusk
:11:58. > :12:04.prominence -- promises an emergency brake on my current benefits. A key
:12:05. > :12:09.legal statement. But those campaigning for UK to leave the
:12:10. > :12:14.European Union, say it does not come close to beat changes Mr Cameron had
:12:15. > :12:19.promised. If you look at the substance of the renegotiations,
:12:20. > :12:24.what is being asked for is fairly weak. So it is almost as if the
:12:25. > :12:28.strategy is to ask for nothing and then you get nothing in return. Yet
:12:29. > :12:31.it gives the Prime Minister the opportunity to wave the white flag
:12:32. > :12:35.and says that he has done a great job for Wales and the United
:12:36. > :12:41.Kingdom, which is not necessarily the case. If European leaders steal
:12:42. > :12:47.the deal in a crucial European summer, then Britain's EU referendum
:12:48. > :12:51.could be held as soon as June. So, what does it all mean for us here in
:12:52. > :12:56.Wales? Joining us now art to political commentators. Thanks,
:12:57. > :13:01.I think almost certainly. both. Kevin, is it going to be June?
:13:02. > :13:03.Downing Street, we believe, have pencilled
:13:04. > :13:06.David Cameron is desperate to get it out of the
:13:07. > :13:09.He fears another migration and refugee crisis in the summer
:13:10. > :13:12.would influence a result if it was delayed, but also he knows
:13:13. > :13:14.it is going to dominate British politics
:13:15. > :13:21.And he doesn't want that to happen, because he could allow his opponents
:13:22. > :13:25.to get up a head of steam, so he believes if he goes in June
:13:26. > :13:29.So let's be honest, the protestations from
:13:30. > :13:40.Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland, from Wales or so, basically
:13:41. > :13:42.Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland, from Wales also, basically
:13:43. > :13:43.they don't register in Downing Street?
:13:44. > :13:46.I understand why objections are made with huge
:13:47. > :13:50.elections in May than a referendum in June, there is a real prospect
:13:51. > :13:54.of chaos, and Europe dominating those
:13:55. > :13:56.May elections rather than just the referendum itself,
:13:57. > :13:58.but David Cameron has his own timetable.
:13:59. > :14:03.He does it because he believes it suits him and Britain's best,
:14:04. > :14:06.He does it because he believes it suits him and Britain best,
:14:07. > :14:09.so I am afraid all objections will be ignored, he may
:14:10. > :14:12.smile and try to smooth ruffled feathers but he is going
:14:13. > :14:15.Darren, he has bigger fish to fry, basically, doesn't he,
:14:16. > :14:19.but what will be the impact if it is June 23, on the Welsh Assembly
:14:20. > :14:22.Let's look at this another way, there were people who objected
:14:23. > :14:26.when this referendum potentially was going to be called
:14:27. > :14:28.on the same day as the assembly elections.
:14:29. > :14:30.There was always going to be some impact.
:14:31. > :14:33.I think what worries the four main parties in Wales is actually Ukip,
:14:34. > :14:39.and the closer you hold a referendum to be assembly
:14:40. > :14:42.and the closer you hold a referendum to the Assembly
:14:43. > :14:44.elections, the more likely it is to be beneficial to Ukip
:14:45. > :14:46.in that assembly vote, it's as simple as that.
:14:47. > :14:49.Talking about Ukip, they expect to do pretty well,
:14:50. > :14:50.they are targeting Wales more than Scotland
:14:51. > :14:58.and London, so will they then split their money and think,
:14:59. > :15:02."Right, we now have to spend on the referendum," or is it one big
:15:03. > :15:06.One big campaign, and as soon as they
:15:07. > :15:08.sort out this local difficulty with finding some candidates
:15:09. > :15:11.to stand who are acceptable to their party they will be full
:15:12. > :15:13.steam ahead and you will see the motoring
:15:14. > :15:17.If they don't make progress in the assembly election it will be
:15:18. > :15:23.Kevin, the impact on the other parties, we are talking
:15:24. > :15:27.about splits, potentially big ones, in Labour and the Tories,
:15:28. > :15:30.Plaid Cymru and Lib Dems perhaps more united on the European issue,
:15:31. > :15:33.but for those two big parties, they will be split at a time
:15:34. > :15:35.when they are fighting elections in Wales.
:15:36. > :15:38.I think the splits are bigger and more fundamental
:15:39. > :15:43.in the Conservative Party than Labour, but there are people
:15:44. > :15:46.in Labour, MPs, Assembly members, who are Eurosceptic,
:15:47. > :15:48.and if you have divided parties, in elections, it becomes very
:15:49. > :15:50.damaging because the electorate don't know
:15:51. > :15:53.who to listen to when they hear these many voices.
:15:54. > :15:56.Again, that is another reason David Cameron wants
:15:57. > :15:59.to go early, because he knows Europe, as it has in the past,
:16:00. > :16:03.will split the Conservatives in future.
:16:04. > :16:06.He thinks he can hold his cabinet relatively strongly together,
:16:07. > :16:10.a few people will speak out, but as we saw
:16:11. > :16:14.today, we know there are a lot of Eurosceptic Tory MPs who get out
:16:15. > :16:18.of bed every day to drag Britain out of
:16:19. > :16:21.Europe, and they will not be quiet or go meekly into the polling booths
:16:22. > :16:26.and accept the result if it isn't what they want.
:16:27. > :16:37.Daran, crystal balls then, let's pretend it's a no,
:16:38. > :16:39.it's let's get out of Europe, but Wales and Scotland,
:16:40. > :16:41.in the breakdown, have said yes, what
:16:42. > :16:44.We are talking about a Scottish referendum, aren't we?
:16:45. > :16:47.Well, I think it's much more likely, actually, that Scotland would say
:16:48. > :16:50.If you look at opinion polls, and I don't moment
:16:51. > :16:53.If you look at opinion polls, and I don't for a moment
:16:54. > :16:56.suggest we should take them without a pinch of salt after last
:16:57. > :16:58.year, it has shown a similarity between Welsh
:16:59. > :17:00.and English voting patterns that isn't there with Scotland.
:17:01. > :17:03.If Scotland votes a different way to Wales and England,
:17:04. > :17:05.it is a far more likely scenario, and in that
:17:06. > :17:09.circumstance it probably would move towards another Scottish referendum.
:17:10. > :17:11.And then, Kevin, we are talking about a rump UK out
:17:12. > :17:15.of the European Union, where does that leave Wales?
:17:16. > :17:17.Yes, it would be the end of the United Kingdom,
:17:18. > :17:25.One of the nightmares would be Scotland and Wales voting
:17:26. > :17:32.to stay in, England voting to come out.
:17:33. > :17:35.We know what would happen if in that rump different England and Wales
:17:36. > :17:38.be huge tensions, and there would not be soluble
:17:39. > :17:42.A lot of economic chaos would happen should Britain come out
:17:43. > :17:43.of the European Union, with also added
:17:44. > :17:50.You are both seasoned commentators that have covered a lot
:17:51. > :17:52.of elections, have the stakes ever been
:17:53. > :17:59.It seems to be a roller-coaster the last couple of years
:18:00. > :18:03.This is probably the most profound we have had yet,
:18:04. > :18:06.not just because of the relationship with Europe but because of
:18:07. > :18:08.the future of the rest of the UK as we
:18:09. > :18:11.Will this put an end to the questioning and the major
:18:12. > :18:20.I am not sure, but it is certainly a hugely
:18:21. > :18:23.Kevin Maguire, final question, where will we be
:18:24. > :18:37.I kind of feel that Britain will vote to remain,
:18:38. > :18:40.not least because you have the leaders of the Conservative Party,
:18:41. > :18:41.Labour, Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the SMP
:18:42. > :18:43.Labour, Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the SNP
:18:44. > :18:46.all campaigning to remain in, but you will not solve this
:18:47. > :18:48.question, it will go on, because the problems
:18:49. > :18:52.Europe gets blamed for a lot of things, a lot of questions
:18:53. > :18:53.are more fundamental than Britain's membership,
:18:54. > :18:58.including the question of refugees and migration.
:18:59. > :19:00.Thank you both, Daran Hill, thank you, Kevin
:19:01. > :19:07.Whichever party ends up in charge of the Senedd after the elections
:19:08. > :19:11.in May, they will have to grapple with
:19:12. > :19:13.a devolution settlement that is being called deeply problematic.
:19:14. > :19:15.Today in Westminster row erupted over the UK Government's attempt
:19:16. > :19:20.Labour say they will not now support the draft Wales Bill
:19:21. > :19:27.All this after a report by respected academics this week said the draft
:19:28. > :19:37.legislation was constricting, clunky and short-sighted.
:19:38. > :19:40.So is Wales as it currently stands ungovernable?
:19:41. > :19:42.Professor Calvin Jones from Cardiff Business School
:19:43. > :19:47.The path of Wales since devolution is a great disappointment
:19:48. > :19:50.The devolution project, which I supported, which once had
:19:51. > :19:57.How do we make Wales work better and how should it be
:19:58. > :20:00.After 16 years and four governments we can no longer use
:20:01. > :20:05.excuses of growing pains and bedding in to explain poor performance.
:20:06. > :20:07.If devolution were going to be economically transformative
:20:08. > :20:14.Devolution has not just failed, it cannot work.
:20:15. > :20:16.This is the great unmentionable in all political
:20:17. > :20:21.Wales in our modern globalised world cannot be governed
:20:22. > :20:26.For an economist like me, this is obvious, the economy
:20:27. > :20:28.of industrial South Wales is nothing like that of north-east Wales,
:20:29. > :20:31.separate markets, different skills needs, different customers,
:20:32. > :20:42.North West Wales like another country
:20:43. > :20:44.again, and Powys - Powys is just Powys.
:20:45. > :20:46.The idea that these disparate economies can be effectively managed
:20:47. > :20:48.and directed from Cardiff Bay is bizarre.
:20:49. > :20:50.Especially when actual economic power over interest rates,
:20:51. > :20:52.energy, currency and most taxes lives in London.
:20:53. > :20:54.Businesspeople in places like North Wales are not just
:20:55. > :20:56.on the outside, they are on the periphery of the periphery.
:20:57. > :21:01.Far from turning the clock back on devolution, I think we need
:21:02. > :21:04.The Welsh Government needs to give away power,
:21:05. > :21:05.transferring resources, financial and human,
:21:06. > :21:10.Resources, policy and landscape should be controlled locally
:21:11. > :21:12.at the level of the functional economic
:21:13. > :21:18.Strawberries a pound, raspberries a pound.
:21:19. > :21:21.What then would be left the Welsh Government to do?
:21:22. > :21:22.Must the turkeys then vote for Christmas?
:21:23. > :21:25.We could build a more agile Government,
:21:26. > :21:27.narrow in scope and all the better for it.
:21:28. > :21:29.It should be focused on sustainability, evaluating public
:21:30. > :21:32.bodies in Wales and holding them to account when they fail,
:21:33. > :21:39.and running key services and infrastructure
:21:40. > :21:41.where the argument for economies of scale are strong.
:21:42. > :21:44.We might even enjoy this new approach.
:21:45. > :21:46.It is tempting to blame politicians but we failed the devolution era
:21:47. > :21:48.largely because of the way it was dealt.
:21:49. > :21:50.Lack of civic resources, public enthusiasm and economic
:21:51. > :21:53.control, together with the grumpy and petty process of devolution
:21:54. > :21:54.from Whitehall, has stymied any effort to
:21:55. > :21:58.It is time for a fundamental change in the way we approach
:21:59. > :22:02.Politicians in Cardiff Bay have to start trusting those in the rest
:22:03. > :22:06.With the new Welsh Government coming in May, now is the perfect
:22:07. > :22:12.I am joined now by Manon George from the Wales
:22:13. > :22:16.Governance Centre and from Westminster, the Liberal Democrat
:22:17. > :22:22.peer and former First Minister of Wales, Mike German.
:22:23. > :22:24.peer and former Deputy First Minister of Wales,
:22:25. > :22:30.Manon first of all, has he got a point, is Wales that the moment
:22:31. > :22:31.ungovernable with the current settlement?
:22:32. > :22:34.I think the point I would like to make is that Wales
:22:35. > :22:35.doesn't have the tools to do the job.
:22:36. > :22:38.I don't think we can just blame politicians that they don't
:22:39. > :22:42.We are working with a third settlement, a third Welsh devolution
:22:43. > :22:46.settlement, and I would argue old settlements
:22:47. > :22:49.have been a failure and we are looking at a fourth
:22:50. > :22:51.settlement, and the way that is looking at the moment
:22:52. > :22:55.I would argue that will also be a constitutional failure.
:22:56. > :22:57.Yes, and you have written as part of your
:22:58. > :23:00.organisation a critical report about that.
:23:01. > :23:02.We will come onto that, but Mike German, this fourth
:23:03. > :23:07.settlement as proposed at the moment by the
:23:08. > :23:10.Draft Wales Bill, a big row erupting all around you in Westminster today,
:23:11. > :23:12.Labour withdrawing support for the Bill.
:23:13. > :23:16.As a Lib Dem do you still support what that proposes?
:23:17. > :23:20.The principle of the Bill is about a reserve powers model,
:23:21. > :23:23.which I believe is the right way to approach
:23:24. > :23:25.it, a similar approach they did with Scotland right at the very
:23:26. > :23:32.What I do regret is it has taken so many struggles to keep
:23:33. > :23:35.us moving over the hurdles each time to get a straightforward and clear
:23:36. > :23:40.You have a clear distinction between what you can do in Wales
:23:41. > :23:46.and what you can do in the UK Government.
:23:47. > :23:47.The trouble is, the Governance Centre has rightly
:23:48. > :23:50.pointed out, there is still a good deal of confusion about that
:23:51. > :23:53.division, so what I think we need to do is clarified that
:23:54. > :23:59.I think the Government has a job to do in trying to explain that
:24:00. > :24:02.better, it also has to make sure the legislation is clearer,
:24:03. > :24:05.but those changes can be made, and I am sure
:24:06. > :24:09.it is listening to this because it understands it needs to carry people
:24:10. > :24:14.Just to be clear, Mr German, you are still backing that Bill
:24:15. > :24:21.The principle of the Bill is absolutely right.
:24:22. > :24:25.I think there is a great deal to do in terms of detail to make
:24:26. > :24:27.those changes, to straighten the curves which are now appearing
:24:28. > :24:30.to be in the way the text is written in the legislation.
:24:31. > :24:32.Manon George, you are more critical as an institution,
:24:33. > :24:37.Are you saying scrap it or just pause here and have a think?
:24:38. > :24:41.We don't actually think it is rooted in principles,
:24:42. > :24:46.because the reserve powers model, letting Wales do anything
:24:47. > :24:48.except for what is reserved to Westminster, isn't necessarily
:24:49. > :24:50.the best model if it doesn't provide clarity,
:24:51. > :24:56.This is the model you are asking for, though, and the Secretary
:24:57. > :25:01.of State would say if he way here tonight, it provides
:25:02. > :25:04.of State would say if he were here tonight, it provides
:25:05. > :25:05.clarity, it is robust, simpler and clarified
:25:06. > :25:10.There is a long list of matters I reserved,
:25:11. > :25:13.There is a long list of matters which are reserved,
:25:14. > :25:16.so we are arguing that Wales doesn't have as much power as it has under
:25:17. > :25:20.There are also test that exist in Wales that don't exist
:25:21. > :25:22.in Scotland, for example in Wales we would not be
:25:23. > :25:24.allowed to change ministers with crown functions
:25:25. > :25:26.without the consent of the Westminster Parliament first.
:25:27. > :25:28.There is also a necessity test, so where it is
:25:29. > :25:32.Mike German, here we are again, once again talking about
:25:33. > :25:37.When will devolution start looking about what these politicians
:25:38. > :25:44.and people like you actually do with those powers?
:25:45. > :25:51.Indeed, and that is why it is so important to get this settlement
:25:52. > :25:56.absolutely right, and that is why it is important to ensure the powers
:25:57. > :25:59.Wales has and will have had clearly described and written down. It is
:26:00. > :26:03.right they should be a debate about these issues because there are
:26:04. > :26:07.people who pour over the detail and find out the wrinkles in the text,
:26:08. > :26:16.and we have do straighten that out, but more importantly, we need to use
:26:17. > :26:20.powers properly and fundamentally Wales's economy is lagging behind
:26:21. > :26:25.the rest of the UK, meaning jobs and the pounds in your pocket which
:26:26. > :26:30.peoples in -- people in Wales have are not as strong as the rest of the
:26:31. > :26:35.UK, that is the fundamental problem we have to address through
:26:36. > :26:39.legislation. Manon George, you could argue, you don't like this Bill, but
:26:40. > :26:44.it focuses on process, why not let it pass and see if they can use the
:26:45. > :26:48.powers? That is our concern, that they won't be able to use them, that
:26:49. > :26:53.there will be so much uncertainty about the powers of the Assembly and
:26:54. > :26:58.it will be up to the courts to decide whether the Assembly can
:26:59. > :27:03.legislate or not. It will end up in the courts more often than at the
:27:04. > :27:07.moment, will it? I hope it won't. That is what clarity means. That is
:27:08. > :27:11.where you have to have these wrinkles ironed out. There is no
:27:12. > :27:16.doubt there is confusion, and of course lawyers who like to look at
:27:17. > :27:21.these things will always find a way through it. Legislation needs to be
:27:22. > :27:24.as firm as possible, as clear as possible, and the detail needs to be
:27:25. > :27:30.as worked out as possible, and there is time to do that in the present
:27:31. > :27:34.process. That is why the arrangements are that this
:27:35. > :27:37.consultation is still ongoing. I think the Welsh Government and the
:27:38. > :27:44.UK Government must layout quite clearly what changes they believe
:27:45. > :27:48.are achievable, but also ensure that for people who are in Wales
:27:49. > :27:52.listening to the way this debate goes forward, they know at the end
:27:53. > :27:56.of the process there will be a clear position about what you can do in
:27:57. > :28:00.Wales and the UK Government. Weather is overlap, because there is bound
:28:01. > :28:04.to be, there is an arrangement by which the overlap is agreed and
:28:05. > :28:09.process and agreed for it. There is already something in place for that,
:28:10. > :28:14.it needs to be straightened. Manon, a final word, anybody thinking, I
:28:15. > :28:24.don't care about this constitutional confusion, why should people care?
:28:25. > :28:26.Because we want a sustainable settlement, we don't want to be in
:28:27. > :28:29.another position in five years redrafting this again. Let's try and
:28:30. > :28:32.do this properly this time and have a sustainable settlement for Wales.
:28:33. > :28:38.Manon George, Mike German, thank you. That's it for delight, you can
:28:39. > :28:44.get in touch with us by e-mail or follow us on social media. We will
:28:45. > :28:55.be back next week, but until then, thanks for watching, Diolch am eich
:28:56. > :29:01.cwmni, nos da. Good night.