:00:00. > :00:07.Tackling the skills shortage in the Welsh NHS.
:00:08. > :00:10.How can we encourage more doctors to work here?
:00:11. > :00:13.We ask the Liberal Democrats' Kirsty Williams
:00:14. > :00:16.how her party would run Wales as we look ahead
:00:17. > :00:18.to May's national assembly elections.
:00:19. > :00:20.And sharing cultural snapshots -
:00:21. > :00:23.do we need to be politically tied to the EU
:00:24. > :00:27.to form cultural connections with our European cousins?
:00:28. > :00:41.Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.
:00:42. > :00:43.It's forever in the headlines - and last week,
:00:44. > :00:46.after months of political squabbling,
:00:47. > :00:50.a major international review found that The NHS in Wales
:00:51. > :00:53.appears to be performing no better and no worse
:00:54. > :00:58.But with concerns over staffing numbers in the Welsh NHS,
:00:59. > :01:02.tonight we hear from one GP practice which has given up
:01:03. > :01:06.because it just can't recruit enough doctors.
:01:07. > :01:08.You can join tonight's conversation on social media
:01:09. > :01:13.An official report into workforce trends
:01:14. > :01:17.within the Welsh NHS has found a shortage of skills
:01:18. > :01:21.in many areas, including general practice,
:01:22. > :01:23.with the current position unsustainable.
:01:24. > :01:27.Some GP practices are now ending their contracts
:01:28. > :01:31.Felicity Evans has been to visit one practice which has done
:01:32. > :01:49.Hazel Drury has been running the Rhuddlan clinic on her own for 13
:01:50. > :01:54.years. The shortage of GPs has made it difficult to find cover, even for
:01:55. > :01:59.holidays. Recently, she was taken ill suddenly. From her hospital bed,
:02:00. > :02:04.she tried and failed to find a locum to replace her. It was the final
:02:05. > :02:09.straw. Hazel will leave the practice in six weeks' time. It is quite
:02:10. > :02:13.upsetting. I don't want to leave. I feel selfish looking after myself,
:02:14. > :02:17.but I don't think I have looked after myself, and I need to do
:02:18. > :02:20.something for myself and my family now, because I will not be around
:02:21. > :02:26.for ever otherwise. I need to be here another few years, otherwise
:02:27. > :02:30.you will be another doctor short in north Wales. General practice is the
:02:31. > :02:34.cornerstone of the NHS. The majority of what the health service does
:02:35. > :02:38.happens from places like this, but the problem is that there are not
:02:39. > :02:41.enough doctors. Even conservative forecasts suggest that Wales will
:02:42. > :02:48.have to increase GP training places by nearly a third to meet future
:02:49. > :02:53.demand. But the supply line of people to fill those posts is also
:02:54. > :02:56.drying up. Junior doctors make up that supply line, and the numbers
:02:57. > :03:05.deciding they want to become GPs has been dwindling. Patients here at the
:03:06. > :03:08.Rhuddlan clinic are not alone in seeing their GP today because of
:03:09. > :03:13.recruitment issues. In Prestatyn, patients face similar uncertainty.
:03:14. > :03:17.But the health what has assured all of them that their services will not
:03:18. > :03:21.be affected. And it is not a problem confined to north Wales. Across
:03:22. > :03:24.Wales, doesn't GP practices have handed sponsored Latif or service
:03:25. > :03:29.delivery back to their local health board. Two have closed and six have
:03:30. > :03:33.been identified as being at risk. The Welsh government has tried to
:03:34. > :03:38.address the shortage by launching a social media campaign designed to
:03:39. > :03:43.woo junior doctors in England. Thank you for taking the time to listen to
:03:44. > :03:48.this message. There are many reasons why any doctor in training might
:03:49. > :03:53.want to work in Wales. Ministers here hope the imposition of an
:03:54. > :03:56.unpopular new contract there will encourage doctors to cross the
:03:57. > :04:01.border. But the BMA says there are problems that Wales needs to address
:04:02. > :04:06.to make it more attractive for junior doctors. There are two key
:04:07. > :04:10.features with problems Wales faces in recruiting. The first is the
:04:11. > :04:17.inherent distance of some of our rural practices and some of our
:04:18. > :04:24.hospitals. The second is the problem created by the North-South divide.
:04:25. > :04:28.So people are put off applying to Wales if they were living in the
:04:29. > :04:36.Mersey region, for example, because they might be transferred to
:04:37. > :04:41.Cardiff, when all their family or spouses are working in the Liverpool
:04:42. > :04:47.area. Wales is a great place to be, whether you are interested in music,
:04:48. > :04:51.or sport, you will find it right across Wales. Despite the Welsh
:04:52. > :04:54.government charm offensive, some junior doctors already working here
:04:55. > :04:59.say the recent criticism of the Welsh NHS in England has created a
:05:00. > :05:01.perception problem, even though an international report last week
:05:02. > :05:05.concluded that there was no difference in quality between the
:05:06. > :05:09.Welsh and English systems. People who studied in England, Scotland and
:05:10. > :05:14.Northern Ireland have no idea that the training can be really good
:05:15. > :05:17.here. I don't feel much is going on to persuade them otherwise. I don't
:05:18. > :05:22.feel that we sell ourselves very well. I don't people know there are
:05:23. > :05:26.great opportunities here. Because it takes so long to train doctors, even
:05:27. > :05:29.if Wales resolved all its recruitment problems tomorrow, we
:05:30. > :05:35.would still face a shortage in the medium term. But experts say better
:05:36. > :05:38.strategic planning is key. The NHS generally has been fairly poor at
:05:39. > :05:42.anticipating how many staff it will need in the future and then training
:05:43. > :05:46.them. It is odd, because given that the health service is the monopoly
:05:47. > :05:49.employer and the people responsible for training, that they can get it
:05:50. > :05:54.right. The key thing about workforce planning is that it needs to follow
:05:55. > :05:57.this planning. In other words, you need to decide how you want to
:05:58. > :06:01.deliver services in the future, and only then can you work out how many
:06:02. > :06:05.and what sort of staff you need. If you do it the other way round, you
:06:06. > :06:09.carry on doing the same old thing. The problem with the health service
:06:10. > :06:13.is the connection between those two so that the king about the future
:06:14. > :06:17.doesn't translate into a rigorous appraisal of how many staff you need
:06:18. > :06:20.to do it. Back at the Rhuddlan clinic, the health board has now
:06:21. > :06:26.found a placement for Hazel. While the search continues, her 2000
:06:27. > :06:27.patients will have to rely on locums.
:06:28. > :06:30.Joining me now is Professor Malcolm Lewis,
:06:31. > :06:42.Why do you think there is a problem attracting GPs to Wales? The
:06:43. > :06:49.fundamental issue is that general practice has become difficult and
:06:50. > :06:53.unpopular. There was a heyday in the 1980s, when General practice seemed
:06:54. > :06:57.as popular as anything in terms of recruitment, but that has faded over
:06:58. > :07:05.the last three decades and we are now in a position where it is not at
:07:06. > :07:08.all popular. The target, on the basis of intelligence from England,
:07:09. > :07:13.is that 50% of medical graduates ought to be going into GP training.
:07:14. > :07:18.That is a numbers issue. In reality, it is nowhere near that and there is
:07:19. > :07:22.no sign of that happening. And in Wales, we are way behind because the
:07:23. > :07:26.Welsh government does not even -- did not bother raising the target
:07:27. > :07:30.for ten years. To be fair to the Welsh government, raising the target
:07:31. > :07:34.for entry way increasing funding would make little difference,
:07:35. > :07:37.because we are unable to fill with quality applicants the current
:07:38. > :07:42.target levels. It is the same in parts of England. We can certainly
:07:43. > :07:48.feel long parts of the M4corridor and parts of Wales come but we have
:07:49. > :07:51.difficulty in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion. So
:07:52. > :07:55.you don't see a specific reason why people do not want to come to Wales
:07:56. > :07:59.specifically to be doctors? It is nothing to do with the bad press the
:08:00. > :08:03.NHS in Wales has had and nothing to do with devolution. Are you
:08:04. > :08:07.confident it has nothing to do with that? I don't think it is a
:08:08. > :08:15.political issue, it is more an issue of how it will perceive general
:08:16. > :08:18.practice. I would not say that if we went to the Welsh government as a
:08:19. > :08:22.deanery and said, can we have another 10 million to increase the
:08:23. > :08:29.number of recruits into dinner practice, we would not fill those
:08:30. > :08:32.places. So when you hear criticism of bad workforce planning, bad
:08:33. > :08:37.strategy and bad PR, we heard from that junior doctors say we are not
:08:38. > :08:41.selling it enough, you don't take responsibility for selling Wales as
:08:42. > :08:46.a good place to be a GP? I think selling Wales is a multi-input
:08:47. > :08:51.issue. It is not just the Welsh deanery or Welsh government, it is
:08:52. > :08:56.for NHS Wales as well. Part of it is about good news stories. If we had
:08:57. > :09:03.good quality training in hospitals and general practice, which I think
:09:04. > :09:06.we do compared to most of the UK, that surprisingly goes against the
:09:07. > :09:13.issue. Why is that Mark message not getting out? It does get out, but it
:09:14. > :09:16.gets out in dribs and drabs and is not a constant message. There is an
:09:17. > :09:23.issue with scale as well in that Wales is very small compared to
:09:24. > :09:27.England and Scotland. What about workforce planning? You predict how
:09:28. > :09:30.many doctors you need. You have explained why there is no point
:09:31. > :09:35.raising the target, but you also don't know what kind of system you
:09:36. > :09:40.are planning for, because the Welsh NHS seems to be constantly in flux.
:09:41. > :09:44.Is that an issue? We have had numerous reports over workforce
:09:45. > :09:48.issues, the primary care workforce and the general practice workforce
:09:49. > :09:52.and how things might change in the context of prudent health care, with
:09:53. > :09:57.skill mix differences and so on. If you take the principle of prudent
:09:58. > :10:01.health care, which is to only do what you can do, which is a worthy
:10:02. > :10:07.principle, it is difficult to implement that. You start with
:10:08. > :10:10.saying 25% of what GPs do could be done by other health care workers.
:10:11. > :10:13.That is a reasonable assumption but you cannot implement that until you
:10:14. > :10:18.have the other health care workers who can do it. But now we have
:10:19. > :10:23.record health spending in Wales and a crisis over the border, with
:10:24. > :10:29.junior doctors on strike. And you have contracts being imposed. Your
:10:30. > :10:33.phones must be so hot at the moment, with an influx of doctors coming
:10:34. > :10:38.across the border? I think there is local anecdotal evidence of Abel
:10:39. > :10:42.wanted to come across. It is not that easy, of course, for doctors
:10:43. > :10:47.already in training programmes to just step out and move. There are
:10:48. > :10:51.processes for transfers. And we also don't know what the impact of the
:10:52. > :10:55.contract will be on Wales. We can assume that if it looks better in
:10:56. > :10:59.Wales than England, but in some specialties, it may be better in
:11:00. > :11:05.England and Wales. If we don't get more doctors, it is going to be a
:11:06. > :11:12.crisis, isn't it? Yes. We have already seen evidence of practices
:11:13. > :11:15.not just in north-west, but elsewhere, that are struggling to
:11:16. > :11:17.manage and are doing what is called handing back the keys, which means
:11:18. > :11:27.handing back responsibility for running practices to the local
:11:28. > :11:33.health boroughs. So there is an issue about how these practices
:11:34. > :11:38.become measured by the health boards. Locums are hard to find, so
:11:39. > :11:42.the premium goes up and they become almost impossibly expensive, and so
:11:43. > :11:47.on. So the whole GP structure in Wales is on the edge? I would not
:11:48. > :11:51.say the whole structure is on edge, but in places, it is on edge, and
:11:52. > :11:55.different models might be needed to provide for patients in those areas.
:11:56. > :11:59.There may be something about the culture of young people in these
:12:00. > :12:04.days who do not want a remote oral lifestyle and want to live in cities
:12:05. > :12:07.and big towns -- they do not want a remote or rural lifestyle. And we
:12:08. > :12:11.are seeing this with this generation. Thank you.
:12:12. > :12:13.There's less than three months to go
:12:14. > :12:14.until the Assembly Election
:12:15. > :12:17.and as part of BBC Wales' How Wales Works season,
:12:18. > :12:21.the main party leaders in Wales to find out how
:12:22. > :12:23.they would run things if they won power in May.
:12:24. > :12:26.We started last week with Ukip and over the coming weeks,
:12:27. > :12:27.we'll be speaking to Plaid Cymru,
:12:28. > :12:30.Tonight, it's the turn of Kirsty Williams, the leader
:12:31. > :12:35.Her party is gearing up for a campaign which
:12:36. > :12:39.could see them return fewer AMs than ever before.
:12:40. > :12:41.Professor Richard Wyn Jones from Cardiff University
:12:42. > :12:43.takes a look at the challenges ahead
:12:44. > :13:02.With the best will in the world, looking at all the evidence that we
:13:03. > :13:09.have both from last year's UK general election, from the polls,
:13:10. > :13:15.this looks like a possible extinction event for the Welsh Lib
:13:16. > :13:19.Dems. To form an Assembly group, you need three. Again, that looks hugely
:13:20. > :13:27.challenging for them. It would require them picking up seats when
:13:28. > :13:29.you have got the Ukip challenge. It would require them winning
:13:30. > :13:37.constituencies. That looks difficult. It is not impossible to
:13:38. > :13:41.imagine them on one, and that would presumably then be the leader,
:13:42. > :13:47.Kirsty Williams, which would be an extraordinary situation. When Kirsty
:13:48. > :13:54.took over the leadership, I recall hearing her speak about Project 31.
:13:55. > :13:58.The aim was to secure 31 liberal AMs. Through no fault of her own,
:13:59. > :14:05.that just looks like fantasy politics. Hanging onto one or two
:14:06. > :14:14.would be a good result for them, given where they are.
:14:15. > :14:21.What I find puzzling about the Welsh Lib Dems is once the federal party
:14:22. > :14:26.signed up to a coalition deal they were stuck in that position and in a
:14:27. > :14:29.sense it was quite difficult for them to differentiate themselves
:14:30. > :14:32.from Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrat leadership and perhaps
:14:33. > :14:39.Kirsty Williams did want to differentiate but since the terrible
:14:40. > :14:45.result they had last May, there doesn't seem to have been any
:14:46. > :14:53.attempt to change anything. They carry on. The rhetoric is very much
:14:54. > :14:56.the same. It is almost as if they are caught in the headlights without
:14:57. > :15:01.any kind of attempt to change the game. Changing the game would be
:15:02. > :15:05.very difficult and it looks as if the electorate have made up their
:15:06. > :15:11.minds and there is not a lot they can do. That is a horrible paradox
:15:12. > :15:16.here in terms of Kirsty Williams' own position because if they
:15:17. > :15:22.collapse and are down to one or two then presumably the leader who was
:15:23. > :15:25.elected on the basis of project 31 leading to a majority in the
:15:26. > :15:30.assembly, it would be hard for that lead to hang on that on the other
:15:31. > :15:35.hand if you are the only member potentially can you give up the
:15:36. > :15:39.leadership? Who then takes over the leadership of the Welsh Lib Dems in
:15:40. > :15:46.such circumstances? It really is a horrible position.
:15:47. > :16:00.It is a bleak picture he paints but does it feel like possible
:16:01. > :16:05.extinction to you? Since the general election which was a very difficult
:16:06. > :16:09.set of results for us, our party membership in Wales has grown. We
:16:10. > :16:16.have won by-elections and councils, taking seats off Labour in Wrexham
:16:17. > :16:22.and a seat of the Tories in Powys. We have record numbers of people out
:16:23. > :16:31.on the streets delivering campaigns. The polls are tab at the moment but
:16:32. > :16:35.five years ago journalists were predicting we were going to be wiped
:16:36. > :16:41.out. We defied expectations and returned with a strong liberal
:16:42. > :16:48.Democrat group and I'm sure we can expectations again. You are not
:16:49. > :16:52.talking about Project 30 17 years on but are you thinking about five or
:16:53. > :16:57.ten? What is realistic? I have been in politics long enough to know if
:16:58. > :17:02.his mug 's game to try and predict election results. What I do know is
:17:03. > :17:07.that over the past five years with a small assembly team we have punched
:17:08. > :17:10.above our weight and delivered things for instance our number-1
:17:11. > :17:16.pledge was more money for education and we have done that. And you have
:17:17. > :17:22.been in government in Wales and Westminster. What is comfortable for
:17:23. > :17:25.you as a leader? Is it influencing as an opposition party as you are
:17:26. > :17:34.doing now or is it in government as a partner? What would be comfortable
:17:35. > :17:40.for you? What is comfortable for me is getting things done for the
:17:41. > :17:43.people of Wales. And delivering on the promises we have made. And
:17:44. > :17:51.getting devolution to work. Someone who has been a proud exponent of
:17:52. > :17:54.devolving power from Westminster to Cardiff, I also the first person to
:17:55. > :18:00.acknowledge that for many people it's not working so for me what
:18:01. > :18:03.would be comfortable is getting a Wales that works for everyone in
:18:04. > :18:07.Wales and getting devolution to work. Better health services, great
:18:08. > :18:14.education system and an economy that promotes opportunity. How you going
:18:15. > :18:20.to do that? Presuming you keep a few seats, would you want to be in
:18:21. > :18:27.government? I want to be in a position to put into practice the
:18:28. > :18:31.values and beliefs my party has. For instance, we know that to thrive as
:18:32. > :18:37.it country we need a great education system. I want to cut class sizes.
:18:38. > :18:43.Too many children are being taught in packed class sizes. We want the
:18:44. > :18:46.correct number of nurses and an economy that allows people the
:18:47. > :18:54.dignity of a well-paid job to allow them to buy their first home. You
:18:55. > :19:00.can do that in many ways. Which way because the electorate needs to
:19:01. > :19:10.know? How are the Lib Dems going to influence? Will they strike a
:19:11. > :19:14.bargain with Labour? Would you strike a bargain with the Tories or
:19:15. > :19:18.Ukip? Give us a flavour of who you do a deal with. It's not about doing
:19:19. > :19:25.a deal, it's about getting things done and getting a government that
:19:26. > :19:30.works for people in a way that for the last 17 years it hasn't. Wales
:19:31. > :19:34.had high hopes of this institution was going to transform our education
:19:35. > :19:39.and health service and economy but it has not happened for the VAT
:19:40. > :19:50.majority of people. I am trying to get out -- get that how would you
:19:51. > :19:54.influence a future government? We won't be on the sidelines shouting
:19:55. > :19:57.because that doesn't achieve smaller class sizes or more nurses on a
:19:58. > :20:05.hospital ward or an economy that works. We have done it for the last
:20:06. > :20:08.five years in using our influence to get things changed. We would use
:20:09. > :20:11.that same approach again, working with other political parties who see
:20:12. > :20:18.the merit of having the correct them of nurses in our health service, the
:20:19. > :20:22.party that recognises you cannot ask a teacher to produce excellent
:20:23. > :20:25.results when you have 32 youngsters in your classroom. If you have a
:20:26. > :20:29.young couple who are desperate to get on that housing ladder but they
:20:30. > :20:36.can save up the deposit to buy that first home. If I can just pin this
:20:37. > :20:40.town and I don't expect you to say this evening yes we will do it deal
:20:41. > :20:47.but what am trying to say is deal have any yellow lines? Plaid Cymru
:20:48. > :20:52.have said they will never do a deal with the Conservatives. If you vote
:20:53. > :20:55.for the Lib Dems you could put Ukip in power because you are not ruling
:20:56. > :21:02.that out. When it comes to working whether the parties you have to find
:21:03. > :21:06.a point of agreement. I cant see any circumstances and I've not heard any
:21:07. > :21:19.policies by Ukip but something I could agree with. Our values are so
:21:20. > :21:21.file a prat. -- so far apart. Sometimes politics is a strange
:21:22. > :21:24.thing. Who would have thought you would see Labour and the
:21:25. > :21:29.Conservatives working together against the Liberal Democrat lands
:21:30. > :21:36.end 50 minute care calls, to restrict the use of zero our
:21:37. > :21:42.contracts in the health service. All doors are open and yet last week
:21:43. > :21:48.there was talk of some kind of pre-election deal between you, Plaid
:21:49. > :21:54.Cymru and the Green party. Did you pull the plug on those talks? We
:21:55. > :21:57.were approached informally by another political party about a
:21:58. > :22:01.pre-election pact but we didn't think it was the right way to go.
:22:02. > :22:06.Did those talks tap -- start at all? There were some informal meetings
:22:07. > :22:10.but we didn't think it was the right approach. But it could have
:22:11. > :22:18.safeguarded a few seats for you. That is the whole point. My approach
:22:19. > :22:24.is not doing what's best in the narrow party political interests of
:22:25. > :22:27.my party, my job is to say that devolution hasn't worked and we want
:22:28. > :22:32.a Wales that works for everyone and to do that we need a new approach in
:22:33. > :22:38.that National Assembly and we are putting forward policies that will
:22:39. > :22:43.deliver. We have listened to people and we are coming forward with
:22:44. > :22:45.policies to answer the problems. So no pre-election deals but
:22:46. > :22:50.post-election your door is open to everyone? After the election was the
:22:51. > :22:56.people of spoken we will do our best to deliver on the promises we were
:22:57. > :23:03.made to those people. You are still to the left. You are centre-left. It
:23:04. > :23:14.is a crowded area, especially in Wales. What is making you
:23:15. > :23:18.distinctive these days? People might say they want to improve public
:23:19. > :23:21.services. The Labour Party has had 17 years to do it and yet people are
:23:22. > :23:26.dissatisfied with the state of education and the health service and
:23:27. > :23:30.the economy. We have demonstrated that when we make promises in Wales
:23:31. > :23:37.we can deliver on them. We are still different from the other parties.
:23:38. > :23:40.For instance, recently we had an opportunity to vote on Assembly
:23:41. > :23:46.Members pay. We were the only party in the assembly willing to stand up
:23:47. > :23:53.and say a massive pay rise for Assembly Members is not appropriate.
:23:54. > :23:57.We want to stop this from happening. The other parties made noises about
:23:58. > :24:00.that. But they didn't do what they could have done and voted against it
:24:01. > :24:06.which demonstrates that we are very different. We might be small but
:24:07. > :24:10.when it comes to challenging the system, we are the only party
:24:11. > :24:15.prepared to do that. You were talking some years ago the project
:24:16. > :24:21.31 and a majority in the assembly and a lot has happened since then.
:24:22. > :24:29.When you look in the mirror do you think, have eyed and anything wrong
:24:30. > :24:33.as a leader? Of course, any human being would question, could we have
:24:34. > :24:38.done things differently? But when I look at myself in the mirror I know
:24:39. > :24:41.that as the leaders of the smallest group in the assembly over the last
:24:42. > :24:43.five years there are children getting additional money for the
:24:44. > :24:48.education that would not have happened if we hadn't of been there.
:24:49. > :24:51.The Bell have been treated with state-of-the-art radiotherapy
:24:52. > :24:56.machines in Wales which would have had that treatment if we had not
:24:57. > :24:59.secured additional resources. The iron people in an apprenticeship
:25:00. > :25:04.today that would not have been there if Labour had had their way. When I
:25:05. > :25:09.looked out what we have delivered as a small group, I am proud. This
:25:10. > :25:24.election must be the most challenging you have ever faced.
:25:25. > :25:29.What keeps you going? It is really challenging and it would be great to
:25:30. > :25:34.be at the top of the polls but what keeps me going is that I know there
:25:35. > :25:38.are no political parties in this coming election committed to
:25:39. > :25:42.ensuring the rather like right number of nurses in our hospitals.
:25:43. > :25:46.We had to drag the Labour Party to induce a system which put money into
:25:47. > :25:50.the education of our poorest children and it's working. When I
:25:51. > :25:55.see that and talk to teachers that tell me those kids are doing better
:25:56. > :25:58.than it's all worthwhile. Thank you very much.
:25:59. > :25:59.Tomorrow, EU leaders meet in Brussels
:26:00. > :26:02.for a crucial summit, where Prime Minister David Cameron
:26:03. > :26:04.is hoping to secure a deal on the UK's relationship
:26:05. > :26:09.If he does, a referendum on Britain's membership
:26:10. > :26:12.of the European Union could be held as early as June.
:26:13. > :26:14.So what impact will the vote have on culture in Wales?
:26:15. > :26:17.Do we need to be part of a political union
:26:18. > :26:21.to share and exchange cultural connections with other countries?
:26:22. > :26:24.Clementine Schneidermann is an award-winning
:26:25. > :26:26.French photographer whose photos have been published
:26:27. > :26:31.including in the pages of the New York Times.
:26:32. > :26:32.Originally from Paris, she's currently living
:26:33. > :26:34.and working in Abertillery as part of a residency
:26:35. > :26:36.documenting life in Blaenau Gwent, an area
:26:37. > :26:40.that continues to receive a large portion of EU funding.
:26:41. > :27:08.It is a very old and isolated place and it can be inspiring for people
:27:09. > :27:14.because it's something you can't find anywhere else. I know people
:27:15. > :27:19.who are from the valleys and to take pictures and it is really different.
:27:20. > :27:26.You really see it in a different way. I suffer from the lack of light
:27:27. > :27:30.here whereas some people who are from the don't really see it as a
:27:31. > :27:34.problem. He really bring a different touch when you are not from the
:27:35. > :27:41.place. It doesn't mean it's more interesting it's just different.
:27:42. > :27:47.This is the exhibition. We are having their necks of vision of
:27:48. > :27:52.young Georgian photographers. I met during the opening of photography in
:27:53. > :27:58.Cardiff and we found we were both living in Abertillery. I was living
:27:59. > :28:02.in a war so and Italy before moving to Wales and when I moved to Wales
:28:03. > :28:09.three and a half years ago I missed being able to go to exhibitions and
:28:10. > :28:16.to see art. Our idea was to organise an exhibition of international
:28:17. > :28:21.photography first in our town and then in the towns in the area. What
:28:22. > :28:25.effect do you think leaving the European Union could have on running
:28:26. > :28:32.the exhibitions? It would be difficult to cooperate with artists
:28:33. > :28:36.and to invite them. In the past we have worked with people who come
:28:37. > :28:44.from EU countries and it was easier to cooperate with them and invite
:28:45. > :28:47.them to the exhibitions. What effect do you think leaving the EE you
:28:48. > :28:52.could have on the Welsh culture? Cultural diversity is really
:28:53. > :28:55.important and leaving the year would mean artists would not be able to
:28:56. > :29:00.come here freely and many people would have to leave. Also it would
:29:01. > :29:04.be more difficult to cooperate with other European projects and it will
:29:05. > :29:11.be difficult to access funding. It would be a shame if an artist is not
:29:12. > :29:16.able any more to work in Wales because I think Wales benefits a lot
:29:17. > :29:18.from the art. If you don't have that any more wheels will lose something
:29:19. > :29:22.very important. The photographer Clementine
:29:23. > :29:24.Schneidermann there. I'm joined now by Sophie Lewis,
:29:25. > :29:26.the Chief Executive of Sinfonia Cymru and cultural
:29:27. > :29:46.commentator Richard Fitzwilliams. Richard, I will start with that
:29:47. > :29:50.final thought from Clementine. Do you think England and Wales would
:29:51. > :29:56.lose something important culturally if we were to lose the EU? I don't,
:29:57. > :30:05.because although naturally, there is a certain amount of benefit in
:30:06. > :30:08.grants to areas with regeneration projects and some to various
:30:09. > :30:14.countries in the EU, there is no question that there are subsidiary
:30:15. > :30:18.benefits, but if you consider the fact that we are the leaders in
:30:19. > :30:23.Britain and culturally in the world, it is a kaleidoscope of creativity.
:30:24. > :30:28.And if we were to leave, I think matters would remain the same.
:30:29. > :30:32.Sophie, we don't need to stay in the EU to punch above our weight? I
:30:33. > :30:35.think we very much do need to stay in the EU. Some of the examples
:30:36. > :30:41.Richard has whited Maasai Mara of those areas are -- some of the areas
:30:42. > :30:45.Richard has cited are directly supported by the EU. If you take the
:30:46. > :30:49.film industry, some of the bigger films that have made a major
:30:50. > :30:54.contribution to British exports started with development funding
:30:55. > :30:58.from the EU. Films like Brooklyn, which has been nominated for a
:30:59. > :31:03.number of Oscars, had development funding from the EU. So is it all
:31:04. > :31:11.about money? No, it is bigger than that. The grants are very strategic
:31:12. > :31:15.and they are supporting the fantastic creative industries sector
:31:16. > :31:20.that we have. But beyond that, it is about freedom of movement as well.
:31:21. > :31:23.Richard, you are talking about big and expensive projects which are
:31:24. > :31:32.well funded, but what about the photographer, like Clementine, who
:31:33. > :31:35.are not funded by the EU, but so many come because of help from the
:31:36. > :31:41.EU and that would all disappear. We don't know that it would disappear.
:31:42. > :31:43.I am unconvinced that freedom of movement or freedom of objectivity
:31:44. > :31:47.think about museums and our creative industry as a whole, would be
:31:48. > :31:52.adversely affected by what would happen if we were to leave the EU.
:31:53. > :31:58.What I do think would happen would be possibly an outpouring of some
:31:59. > :32:07.form of creativity, because even most liberal figures would consider
:32:08. > :32:16.it an adverse situation if we had a lot of plays and films about a
:32:17. > :32:19.parochial decision. Sophie is mentioning grants, and they do
:32:20. > :32:26.indeed exist with reference to the film, but if you are thinking
:32:27. > :32:35.overall about our creative industries, they employ 1.7 million
:32:36. > :32:41.people, something like 9% of exports, over 17 billion. That is
:32:42. > :32:45.linked to talent so particularly. Sophie, we have talked about the
:32:46. > :32:48.funding and free movement. What about the psyche, the identity, the
:32:49. > :32:53.impact of leaving on the Welsh identity? For Wales in particular,
:32:54. > :32:59.we are at an interesting point culturally. We are becoming far more
:33:00. > :33:02.innovative. We are taking more risks, and the Welsh government will
:33:03. > :33:06.be looking very seriously at this issue of the in-out referendum in
:33:07. > :33:10.terms of what that will mean for the Welsh identity. If we then decide
:33:11. > :33:14.the best thing to do is not be a member of the EU, I think we would
:33:15. > :33:22.seriously jeopardise the ambition and our identity. Richard? It is a
:33:23. > :33:28.tremendously significant point that throughout history, the arts here
:33:29. > :33:31.and in particular in recent decades, have been so enriched by
:33:32. > :33:35.international and national links and by a cross-cultural
:33:36. > :33:40.internationalism. So whether or not we are in or out, I think this will
:33:41. > :33:44.continue, because the talent here is so massive. Thank you both. We will
:33:45. > :33:45.leave it there. If you'd like to get
:33:46. > :33:49.in touch with us, email us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk,
:33:50. > :33:51.or follow us on social media - We'll be back next week -
:33:52. > :33:58.thanks for watching.