:00:00. > :00:13.are drawn - but just how different is the political landscape in Wales
:00:14. > :00:16.today compared to the last referendum on Europe?
:00:17. > :00:19.We ask Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood how her party would run Wales
:00:20. > :00:21.as we look ahead to May's assembly election.
:00:22. > :00:26.Is Wales doing enough to harness its renewable energy?
:00:27. > :00:43.Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.
:00:44. > :00:47.The EU referendum has been described as a once in a generation decision -
:00:48. > :00:50.and true enough, the last time the British people were given
:00:51. > :00:53.the choice was over 40 years ago in 1975.
:00:54. > :00:58.Back then, Wales, along with the rest of the UK,
:00:59. > :01:09.voted overwhelmingly to stay in what was then called
:01:10. > :01:15.There are signs that Wales has become more Eurosceptic since then -
:01:16. > :01:18.a recent surge in support for Ukip here could translate to Wales
:01:19. > :01:20.being the only devolved region to favour Brexit.
:01:21. > :01:23.I'll be talking to two people who were there for that first
:01:24. > :01:25.referendum in 1975, Lord Peter Hain and economist Patrick Minford
:01:26. > :01:28.in just a moment and you can join tonight's conversation on social
:01:29. > :01:30.media - something not possible in 1975.
:01:31. > :01:35.The hashtag is thewalesreport. But first we go back to the future
:01:36. > :01:38.to see what we can learn from that vote 40 years ago.
:01:39. > :01:45.And just a warning - there are some very serious flares
:01:46. > :02:07.Yesterday Mr Wilson made a recommendation that we should stay
:02:08. > :02:18.in the common market. Let me finish. I think I have got the message. Too
:02:19. > :02:33.much detail, far too many statistics. There is a good deal of
:02:34. > :02:40.confusion. From politics to fashion sense many things have changed since
:02:41. > :02:43.1975 but one thing is the same. The old journalist trek of going on the
:02:44. > :02:50.streets to get opinions of the people before the vote. I would like
:02:51. > :02:58.the country to stay in, it would be better for all of us. It is a shame
:02:59. > :03:04.because I have seen what the EU has done to less well off
:03:05. > :03:05.Germany gets richer and other countries get food.
:03:06. > :03:10.Germany gets richer and other ending up the same way. It is a good
:03:11. > :03:30.thing. may sound familiar Wales is a
:03:31. > :03:34.different place and in recent years there are
:03:35. > :03:34.different place and in recent years increasingly Eurosceptic. There may
:03:35. > :03:40.be two reasons. Many people in Wales increasingly Eurosceptic. There may
:03:41. > :03:45.do not realise some of the benefits that come from membership of the
:03:46. > :03:49.European Union. They do not realise that some of the European Union
:03:50. > :03:54.funded projects in their Kennedy have been supported by the European
:03:55. > :03:58.Union. Then there is the more political dimension. The mainstream
:03:59. > :04:02.parties have traditionally been in favour of remaining within the EU is
:04:03. > :04:05.now in recent years with the rise of Ukip what we see is a party
:04:06. > :04:07.now in recent years with the rise of a different message, something
:04:08. > :04:08.different to offer, and they have been trying to persuade
:04:09. > :04:11.different to offer, and they have of Wales for many years that they
:04:12. > :04:20.may be better off without of Wales for many years that they
:04:21. > :04:26.This is set in a different context. Europe has changed dramatically. 28
:04:27. > :04:32.member States today. Just nine European community members in 1975.
:04:33. > :04:37.The UK is a totally different place. In the 1970s the impact of drawing
:04:38. > :04:41.from Europe on our battered economy was at the forefront of people's
:04:42. > :04:45.minds. But times have changed and the British economy is now one of
:04:46. > :04:52.the strongest performers in Europe. Devolution has transformed the face
:04:53. > :04:57.of British politics. Wheels voted overwhelmingly to stay a member of
:04:58. > :05:01.the European community back in 1975. -- Wales voted overwhelmingly. Topic
:05:02. > :05:09.opinion since then has been in favour of remaining eight member but
:05:10. > :05:12.it recently we have seen a change in public opinion. Ukip is expected
:05:13. > :05:15.it recently we have seen a change in get seats in the assembly in May.
:05:16. > :05:23.There has been a change in public opinion. The terms of the debate may
:05:24. > :05:35.have changed but 40 years on we may still see familiar faces on the
:05:36. > :05:37.campaign trail. While we can all learn from history does not always
:05:38. > :05:40.repeat itself. Joining me now is
:05:41. > :05:42.the economist Partrick Minford and Labour's
:05:43. > :05:58.Lord Peter Hain. Let us go back to 1975. The end
:05:59. > :06:04.campaign had all the party leaders, all the money, all the media. It was
:06:05. > :06:10.not a fair fight. Unlike this one. It is a different fight this time.
:06:11. > :06:15.What is mainly different is that then we were 14 to stay in Europe
:06:16. > :06:22.having only been in the few years. Now we have been in over 40 years.
:06:23. > :06:26.We have seen the benefits of huge investment from outside Wales coming
:06:27. > :06:33.into Wales in order to benefits not just from the opportunities in Wales
:06:34. > :06:37.but to be part of the single richest market in the world, to trade our
:06:38. > :06:47.services into the rest of the European Union. Why would we want to
:06:48. > :06:56.leave? He won an election on the basis of a referendum. It is a huge
:06:57. > :07:03.gamble. It is. The situation is different from 1975. We are now a
:07:04. > :07:09.successful economy and Europe is not looking good at all. In those days
:07:10. > :07:14.we were the sick man of Europe and Europe was successful. We hoped to
:07:15. > :07:20.improve our performance by joining. Now the boot is on the other foot.
:07:21. > :07:26.The problem is that Europe is a bureaucratic entity. We have no
:07:27. > :07:30.influence ultimately on the qualified majority voting for the
:07:31. > :07:37.single market. It brings in regulations that are hostile to our
:07:38. > :07:40.free-market traditions here. It is trying to become a superstate in
:07:41. > :07:44.order to create this architecture to deal with the problems of the euro.
:07:45. > :07:50.It is now threatening as in quite a big way. Peter says it is a great
:07:51. > :07:54.thing to be part of Europe. We have to remember that this single market
:07:55. > :08:01.as a protectionist organisation that raises prices to the British
:08:02. > :08:05.consumer. Back in 1975 the in the campaign was criticised for being
:08:06. > :08:11.scaremongering. There is a danger of that again in this referendum on
:08:12. > :08:16.both sides. There is a lot at stake. Half our trade is with the rest of
:08:17. > :08:27.the European union. I cannot believe how Patrick and others just brush
:08:28. > :08:31.this aside. There are around 200,000 jobs in Wales that are dependent on
:08:32. > :08:41.being part of that giant treating block. In 1975 it was the Battle of
:08:42. > :08:47.shopping baskets. It was about the economy. Is this going to be about
:08:48. > :08:59.the economy or is going to be about immigration? The big issue is
:09:00. > :09:03.self-government. It is trying to become a superstate. The British
:09:04. > :09:09.have always wanted self-government. They want control of the borders and
:09:10. > :09:13.economy and they have a system called democracy which the EU does
:09:14. > :09:17.not have. But is the main thing it is about. As for all these vaunted
:09:18. > :09:22.advantages of being in the EU, this is nonsense. It is nonsense began on
:09:23. > :09:31.a clean because studies show the reverse is true. You want the Norway
:09:32. > :09:40.model? I do not. I want featuring outside the EU. Back to the global
:09:41. > :09:45.market that we once had in the 19th century and early 20th century. This
:09:46. > :09:51.is harking back to a golden past that does not exist any more. A
:09:52. > :09:56.golden future. You should be in favour of competing in level markets
:09:57. > :10:05.globally not inside the protected market of the EU. We use the giant
:10:06. > :10:11.power of the European Union to negotiate trade deals with China and
:10:12. > :10:19.India and the rest of the world. We have the strength of Europe to do
:10:20. > :10:23.that. We would have to negotiate individually as a single and ice
:10:24. > :10:29.with Britain. That would weaken Wales and the UK and leave us
:10:30. > :10:34.isolated and alone. And all sorts of ways. Security, borders, prosperity
:10:35. > :10:38.is all tied up with our neighbours, the European Union and Patrick is
:10:39. > :10:44.offering no clear alternative nor the other she wants to get out. It
:10:45. > :10:49.is a leap into the dark. We do not know what the future holds.
:10:50. > :10:56.Self-government will be set our own relationship with this mammoth
:10:57. > :11:02.declining dysfunctional body on our borders. We have a new relationship
:11:03. > :11:09.with them and we approach the world market as a self-governing three
:11:10. > :11:15.cheating nation. Trade agreements as a red herring. I could explain to
:11:16. > :11:20.him but it would take too much economics to explain to him why he
:11:21. > :11:27.is wrong on this. If big announcement at the Vale of
:11:28. > :11:32.Glamorgan. 750 jobs. We are in the European Union. It is irrelevant, he
:11:33. > :11:39.says. For many businesses it is irrelevant. We are committed by
:11:40. > :11:44.Europe. Even though many of our companies do not sell to a Europe
:11:45. > :11:51.which is a big problem, our labour market is regulated, industry is
:11:52. > :11:58.regulated. The structure of the economy is warped by European
:11:59. > :12:07.protectionism. We influence those decisions. Britain is very
:12:08. > :12:09.influential. I have been there. We are protected by those regulations
:12:10. > :12:13.when they trade with other countries. A taste of things to
:12:14. > :12:17.come. Thank you. Before the referendum of course,
:12:18. > :12:19.there's the small matter As part of BBC Wales's How Wales
:12:20. > :12:27.Works season The Wales Report is speaking to the main party
:12:28. > :12:31.leaders in Wales to find out how they'd run things if
:12:32. > :12:33.they won power in May. We've spoken to Ukip
:12:34. > :12:36.and the Liberal Democrats and over the coming weeks we'll hear
:12:37. > :12:38.from the Conservative and Labour leaders.
:12:39. > :12:39.Tonight it's the turn of Leanne Wood, the
:12:40. > :12:42.leader of Plaid Cymru. Her party is hoping not just
:12:43. > :12:47.to bounce back from its worst ever performance in an Assembly election
:12:48. > :12:50.in 2011 but to form the next Dr Bela Arora from the University
:12:51. > :13:13.of South Wales takes a look It is interesting looking at the
:13:14. > :13:24.project with Leanne Wood in Plaid Cymru. She has made gains that go
:13:25. > :13:32.back to the leaders debates in 2015. She will be hoping there is still an
:13:33. > :13:38.element where she can bounce on the back of that. But actually the fact
:13:39. > :13:44.that Plaid Cymru have been in discussions around building a packed
:13:45. > :13:50.in the election says a lot about the levels of the confidence. They
:13:51. > :13:58.realise that something has to change to give them that step change and
:13:59. > :14:04.help them move forward. This is an important time of change for Plaid
:14:05. > :14:09.Cymru. They have potential in terms of a solid support, a good base of
:14:10. > :14:16.support but they are looking for different ways to make extra gains.
:14:17. > :14:30.Let's look back at devolution so far. Labour in power for 17 years.
:14:31. > :14:33.Why do you think they have been in power for 17 years? Why have you
:14:34. > :14:39.failed to the persuade electorate that you offer an alternative? They
:14:40. > :14:45.have not held power alone, they have been coalitions as well. But the way
:14:46. > :14:51.that the electoral system is configured is helpful to the support
:14:52. > :14:55.that Labour have in the concentration of seats that they
:14:56. > :15:00.have across the south Wales belt. But that does not mean it is a
:15:01. > :15:06.system that is not impossible to break through and given that we have
:15:07. > :15:11.not had any single vote cast yet and that polls have got it wrong,
:15:12. > :15:18.particularly in last year's election, I would say that nothing
:15:19. > :15:21.is inevitable about that result. In 2011, you slipped back. Devolution
:15:22. > :15:28.could have been a platform for you to grow and grow. You slipped back,
:15:29. > :15:30.why was that? We have been a junior partner in
:15:31. > :15:35.why was that? We have been a junior we managed to get a lot of things we
:15:36. > :15:40.wanted achieved achieved, but it is difficult for parties
:15:41. > :15:41.wanted achieved achieved, but it is gains in subsequent elections and I
:15:42. > :15:46.think we gains in subsequent elections and I
:15:47. > :15:49.the country before the party when we went
:15:50. > :15:54.the country before the party when we things are very different now. We
:15:55. > :15:57.have had 17 years of a Labour government and they are found
:15:58. > :16:04.wanting in so many areas. Our economy is weak, and when you
:16:05. > :16:07.wanting in so many areas. Our at the health statistics, the
:16:08. > :16:11.education statistics, we are failing in so many areas and people have a
:16:12. > :16:13.clear choice in this election, either to carry on
:16:14. > :16:18.clear choice in this election, continued failed model that we have
:16:19. > :16:21.had for the last 17 years or to do something different and Plaid Cymru
:16:22. > :16:26.is ready to offer that alternative and give the people an opportunity
:16:27. > :16:30.to do something different. You said you paid the price for being a
:16:31. > :16:32.junior partner in a coalition so you will not go there again? I am not
:16:33. > :16:37.going to will not go there again? I am not
:16:38. > :16:43.but I am not going to spend all our time talking about various deals.
:16:44. > :16:47.You have ruled out a deal with the Conservatives, you are not ruling
:16:48. > :16:51.out a deal with Labour? I have ruled out a deal with the Conservatives
:16:52. > :16:55.because ideological lead they are completely different to Plaid Cymru.
:16:56. > :17:02.Given the cuts they are making from London, it is difficult... Why not
:17:03. > :17:06.rule out Labour to? You paid the price, you said that. Why not say a
:17:07. > :17:11.vote for Plaid Cymru will not be able to proper Labour? I don't want
:17:12. > :17:15.there to be a coalition after the next election. I wanted to be a
:17:16. > :17:19.Plaid Cymru government and we have worked hard, put together a
:17:20. > :17:23.programme, we have got three ambitions and nine steps to achieve
:17:24. > :17:27.those ambitions in order to transform Welsh public services and
:17:28. > :17:32.the economy and that is what I want people be voting on. But they are
:17:33. > :17:36.sophisticated -- sophisticated now in terms of deals but the electorate
:17:37. > :17:40.would like to know in principle whether you would once again for
:17:41. > :17:47.radio with Labour and you are saying, maybe? I have ruled out a
:17:48. > :17:51.deal with the Tories, that is clear. Everything else is on the table.
:17:52. > :17:55.What it is ever to now is for the people to have their say in the
:17:56. > :17:59.election, and we should not second-guess or try to decide for
:18:00. > :18:04.them. So you might well end up propping up a Labour government? I
:18:05. > :18:08.want there to be a Plaid Cymru government, that could be a minority
:18:09. > :18:11.government, but I want is to go into this election with our programme and
:18:12. > :18:16.the extent to which parties will cooperate after the election is for
:18:17. > :18:20.people to decide. So why are we pushing for a pre-election deal with
:18:21. > :18:27.the Greens and the Liberal Democrats last week? I wanted to get to the
:18:28. > :18:30.point where we had the best possible option, the best possible
:18:31. > :18:35.alternative to another five years of a Labour government. We have already
:18:36. > :18:40.seen the damage that 17 years of Labour has caused for us. We must
:18:41. > :18:44.have an alternative for that now. You just said it is at the people
:18:45. > :18:48.and last week you were trying to do a deal before the election. But you
:18:49. > :18:52.have talked about transparency as well and what I was hoping to get to
:18:53. > :18:57.by talking to other parties was a programme that we can organise joint
:18:58. > :19:00.lead that gave us an alternative to another five years of Labour. I
:19:01. > :19:05.accept that given that those talks did not get anywhere, our job is
:19:06. > :19:09.going to be made much more difficult. Nonetheless, it is not
:19:10. > :19:14.impossible and there is nothing inevitable about this election
:19:15. > :19:18.result and I have got an excellent team and you will see when it is
:19:19. > :19:23.published, a fantastic, strong manifesto. We have done everything
:19:24. > :19:28.we can do in terms of offering that alternative. Now that people can
:19:29. > :19:31.decide what they want to do with the Welsh government. We heard about
:19:32. > :19:36.confidence and there, the fact that you are trying to do a deal ahead of
:19:37. > :19:41.the election, she suggests, she suggests there is not enough
:19:42. > :19:45.confidence there. Another thing, you are standing in the Rob Verbakel you
:19:46. > :19:49.are also standing on the list. Does that show confidence in you as
:19:50. > :19:54.leader of the party or do you need an insurer 's policy? I have every
:19:55. > :19:59.confidence in my programme and in my candidates and the reason I am
:20:00. > :20:03.standing in two areas is because that is the system and that is what
:20:04. > :20:07.the system allows. When I first announced I was standing at the
:20:08. > :20:12.system was different and the rules have since changed. We have moved
:20:13. > :20:17.with the times. But if you were really confident, you would not need
:20:18. > :20:22.to be on the list. I have confidence in my programme, believe me, and you
:20:23. > :20:26.will see why when it is published. It is an excellent piece of work and
:20:27. > :20:43.it offers solutions to the problems people have identified
:20:44. > :20:46.in their daily lives. It has three areas, health, education and the
:20:47. > :20:49.economy, and we have listened to people in every part of this
:20:50. > :20:52.country, we have not been focused in one part of the country like the
:20:53. > :20:54.current government, look at the way they are spending on the M4, for
:20:55. > :20:57.example. I have been out to almost every community in this country and
:20:58. > :21:04.the programme is a reflection of what they told us. Aston Martin
:21:05. > :21:08.today, you surely welcome that. They are getting there, aren't they, on
:21:09. > :21:13.the economy, the Labour government? That is one piece of very good news
:21:14. > :21:17.but if that was set in the context of a 20 year economic plan which was
:21:18. > :21:21.designed to transform our communities, get people into
:21:22. > :21:25.high-paid jobs, it is news to be welcomed without question, but what
:21:26. > :21:29.we don't have with this government is that long-term plan and that
:21:30. > :21:34.joined up thinking which is why they need to be replaced. You are on the
:21:35. > :21:38.left of politics, it is a crowded place in Welsh politics, what is
:21:39. > :21:43.going to make you stand up with these politics -- policies in this
:21:44. > :21:47.election? They all stand for better public services, the Lib Dems last
:21:48. > :21:50.week, it is difficult to disagree with that. What is going to make
:21:51. > :21:57.Plaid Cymru standout now that you are sort of pushing independence
:21:58. > :22:01.away? Labour have already stolen a number of our policies. We have
:22:02. > :22:06.published them in quite some good time and with their pledges that
:22:07. > :22:12.they announced recently. First of all, we have seen a lack of
:22:13. > :22:17.ambition. I heard a number of their spokespeople almost saying, we are
:22:18. > :22:21.under promising, we are not really raising expectations, is what that
:22:22. > :22:26.says to me. What you will see when Plaid Cymru's manifesto is published
:22:27. > :22:30.is something radically different. It is a programme for transformational
:22:31. > :22:35.change over two terms of a government. It is achievable within
:22:36. > :22:39.the existing powers framework and the existing financial envelope, all
:22:40. > :22:44.of it is deliverable, but it is highly ambitious and it is designed
:22:45. > :22:48.to seriously up our game as a nation. You have made it clear you
:22:49. > :22:54.want to be First Minister. If you are not in May, what will you do? My
:22:55. > :22:58.political programme is a long-term one and it involves building up a
:22:59. > :23:02.nation and we are not going to do that overnight. This next election
:23:03. > :23:07.is a step towards achieving that. You are going to win it? You have
:23:08. > :23:18.said you are going to be First Minister. My project is a long-term
:23:19. > :23:22.one and I intend to see it through. But you have always said you will be
:23:23. > :23:27.First Minister in 2016. Are you saying maybe not now? I am going
:23:28. > :23:32.all-out to win this election and we should not write off the result
:23:33. > :23:37.before a vote is cast. But if it is not a good outcome for Plaid Cymru,
:23:38. > :23:41.what then? I am in it for the long game and we have got an awful lot of
:23:42. > :23:44.work to do before we turn around the Welsh economy and build the
:23:45. > :23:49.institutions that every nation has and we have got an awful lot of work
:23:50. > :23:54.to do in terms of our public services as well, our health and
:23:55. > :23:57.education. We will not rest until these problems are tackled and they
:23:58. > :24:02.are not going to go away just after the outcome of an election. So if
:24:03. > :24:06.you don't make any gains, Leanne Wood stays on? I am not intending to
:24:07. > :24:08.go anywhere. In some areas of Wales,
:24:09. > :24:12.communities have long been making the most of natural resources
:24:13. > :24:15.like the sun, wind and water But changes in Westminster
:24:16. > :24:19.to the way these projects are funded Llangattock Green Valleys
:24:20. > :24:25.is a community energy project in the Brecon Beacons,
:24:26. > :24:27.using local streams Its chairman Andrew Fryer tells us
:24:28. > :24:32.why he thinks these projects are important and how politics
:24:33. > :24:54.is getting in the way Lancaster is a village of about a
:24:55. > :24:59.thousand people based in the Brecon Beacons National Park, and being
:25:00. > :25:04.Green has always been very important. On this property we have
:25:05. > :25:12.got quite good scope for being Green. We have currently got a plan
:25:13. > :25:20.to build six hydroelectric schemes and those are fully financed. We are
:25:21. > :25:23.now looking at doing the rest of those schemes. The main natural
:25:24. > :25:38.resource is obvious either landscape and so we have hiked and we are
:25:39. > :25:43.ideally suited for hydroelectric. So this is one of the hydro schemes we
:25:44. > :25:49.have built. This is the smallest one. At the top you have got a small
:25:50. > :25:52.dam, only about a metre high, which catches the water and it goes down
:25:53. > :26:02.this pipe and it goes down the hill into the turbine house. OK, this is
:26:03. > :26:07.the turbine house and it is where the final transformation occurs from
:26:08. > :26:16.water coming down the pipe into electricity and the turbine down
:26:17. > :26:20.her, it is the generator in here. So we, in effect, sell all the
:26:21. > :26:24.electricity into the grid. That is not really meet our aim is because
:26:25. > :26:29.it means there is a lack of association between the provision of
:26:30. > :26:34.the electricity and buying it. What we would like to do is to pull off a
:26:35. > :26:39.mechanism for people to buy their local electricity. Many communities
:26:40. > :26:46.should get involved in doing this at some level or other. It is not just
:26:47. > :26:49.about building hydro schemes or wind schemes or anything else, it is
:26:50. > :26:56.about taking charge of your own destiny. Without a single doubt, the
:26:57. > :27:04.biggest difficulty that we have faced has been politics. The
:27:05. > :27:10.politics of renewable energies. It takes about four years from, this
:27:11. > :27:15.looks like a nice stream, being billed as a hydro scheme. In that
:27:16. > :27:18.time we could have seven or eight major policy changes. There is
:27:19. > :27:28.definitely a conflict now on this issue. The valley is one of our
:27:29. > :27:34.members and they are heavily involved. They have been successful
:27:35. > :27:41.in installing schemes. The scheme is owned by local people. How are you
:27:42. > :27:45.doing? Very well. Come this way. Why do you think it is that Wales has
:27:46. > :27:49.not taken this opportunity when somewhere like Scotland, which has
:27:50. > :27:54.been under the same Westminster regime, has managed to pull off the
:27:55. > :27:59.schemes. Scotland recognised the opportunity and in Wales we did not
:28:00. > :28:02.recognise that and Scotland set targets for local ownership of
:28:03. > :28:07.energy which led to more practical support from local authorities. What
:28:08. > :28:12.is the potential if more communities did what we have done? There is huge
:28:13. > :28:17.potential for communities in Wales. We have got the resources, we have
:28:18. > :28:21.got dedicated people who want to see this happen. The people involved
:28:22. > :28:26.have recognised the opportunity that is there but also selling energy to
:28:27. > :28:30.local consumers directly from local projects is the key thing because
:28:31. > :28:34.that really does benefit all the people in Wales because everyone in
:28:35. > :28:38.Wales has the opportunity to buy energy cheaper from a local source
:28:39. > :28:42.which is renewable and we can start to address some of the issues around
:28:43. > :28:46.fuel poverty as well. We really need to make that transition now and that
:28:47. > :28:51.should be in the next Welsh government Parliament.
:28:52. > :28:53.I'm joined now by Grenville Ham from the Green Party
:28:54. > :29:11.We see that project there about how cost effective is something like
:29:12. > :29:17.that? Typically they would pay back their loans in eight or nine years.
:29:18. > :29:33.In terms of how much energy it produces? 50 or 60 homes here and.
:29:34. > :29:40.20%. Is this what we want across Wales that we all buy energy locally
:29:41. > :29:44.which are back at the moment it is not being bought locally, it is
:29:45. > :29:48.still being bought from the big energy companies. We are hoping in
:29:49. > :29:54.long-term we could buy from local suppliers. In terms of backing
:29:55. > :30:00.projects like this your Government is blowing hot and cold. Your Green
:30:01. > :30:05.credentials are all over the place. I do not think they are. There has
:30:06. > :30:08.been significant change since the general election and there are some
:30:09. > :30:16.things I disagree with. Community energy schemes, the Government has
:30:17. > :30:21.made an error in terms of ending the predetermination scheme and I want
:30:22. > :30:27.the secretary of state to look at that and reintroduce that. It is not
:30:28. > :30:34.just the amount of energy produced. Involving people in producing energy
:30:35. > :30:38.and reducing the carbon impact. It is the message it sends out as well
:30:39. > :30:48.as the energy it creates. We remember David Cameron, adopting the
:30:49. > :30:56.Green oak tree. It was a fat, not a genuine commitment. It was a
:30:57. > :30:58.specific issue. There was a lot of inevitability about what would
:30:59. > :31:04.happen. I have been warning about what would happen over the last two
:31:05. > :31:10.years. It was not a surprise, most of the changes, but I did not think
:31:11. > :31:13.that removing the certainty that enables community regeneration
:31:14. > :31:17.schemes to go forward because it takes such a long time to bring to
:31:18. > :31:22.fruition, that is one relatively small aspect that I disagreed with.
:31:23. > :31:28.Generally I would be supportive of the position the Government has
:31:29. > :31:31.taken. In terms of dealing with Government on all sorts of levels,
:31:32. > :31:38.licensing, crit capacity, planning issues, to get a scheme like this
:31:39. > :31:42.the globe is complicated. It is actually relatively simple. It is
:31:43. > :31:48.just that the process is congregated. If you start on a
:31:49. > :31:56.project like this your revenue could have decreased by 70% by the time it
:31:57. > :32:03.is completed. That has made it difficult to even raise finance for
:32:04. > :32:08.a scheme now. A big criticism of renewable energy is dependability
:32:09. > :32:15.and consistency, especially of wind power. Hydroelectric, that is the
:32:16. > :32:21.issue, is at a constant stream of energy? It is not. Under the
:32:22. > :32:28.licenses you could not work but what we do much nicely as when domestic
:32:29. > :32:34.and energy needs are at their highest in winter, Hydro
:32:35. > :32:39.historically always works well within the British climate. Would
:32:40. > :32:45.you welcome a Wales where everybody buys their power locally and
:32:46. > :32:53.community projects like this take hold? I do but to take a community
:32:54. > :32:59.scheme forward is more difficult than a commercial scheme because
:33:00. > :33:03.that company has got back up. It can risk a loss whereas a community
:33:04. > :33:07.scheme cannot. That is why on the point of approving a price that will
:33:08. > :33:13.be known to be available in three or four years' time was an important
:33:14. > :33:17.encouragement to community regeneration schemes and I hope it
:33:18. > :33:23.goes forward. Do you not acknowledge that politics does get in the way?
:33:24. > :33:28.Yes, politics get in the way of everything. Everything has to be
:33:29. > :33:33.done in a political context. You do your best to try to stop politics
:33:34. > :33:37.getting in the way as far as you possibly can. That is what I do.
:33:38. > :33:39.Thank you. If you'd like to get
:33:40. > :33:44.in touch with us, email us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk,
:33:45. > :33:47.or follow us on social media.