:00:00. > :00:11.for the National Assembly on hold, where next for devolution in Wales?
:00:12. > :00:14.We ask Labour leader Carwyn Jones how his party would run Wales
:00:15. > :00:18.as we look ahead to May's assembly election.
:00:19. > :00:21.And do green spaces in our towns and cities really
:00:22. > :00:39.Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.
:00:40. > :00:42.Tonight, we start with a look at how Wales is likely to be run
:00:43. > :00:45.in the years to come and where power will lie.
:00:46. > :00:48.And you can join in the conversation on social media with
:00:49. > :00:52.For months politicians have been arguing over the future of the draft
:00:53. > :00:55.Wales Bill - that's the UK government's plan for the next steps
:00:56. > :00:59.Last week, the Welsh Secretary Steven Crabb put the legislation
:01:00. > :01:06.Then this week the Welsh Government took the rare step of publishing
:01:07. > :01:09.its own alternative draft bill, which in terms of devolving powers
:01:10. > :01:16.to Cardiff Bay, goes further than Mr Crabb's document.
:01:17. > :01:20.But many have criticised Carwyn Jones for publishing such
:01:21. > :01:23.And there are concerns that the whole process
:01:24. > :01:26.Felicity Evans asks how close are we to getting a devolution
:01:27. > :01:47.Trying to get to grips with Welsh devolution is a bit like wrestling a
:01:48. > :01:51.creature from the deep. Once you think you have it cornered, a
:01:52. > :01:56.tentacle comes from nowhere and hits you in the head. Maybe it is the
:01:57. > :01:59.repeated concussion that has stopped successive secretaries of State from
:02:00. > :02:05.finding a lasting and logical settlement. To help us all keep a
:02:06. > :02:08.clear head, let me walk you through recent devolution developments.
:02:09. > :02:11.Check out this timeline. Don't worry, we're not going right back to
:02:12. > :02:16.the beginning because we all have lies to get on with, so we will stop
:02:17. > :02:21.with the Silk Commission that produced to reports. One on finance
:02:22. > :02:25.and one other powers the Assembly should have. Silke recommended the
:02:26. > :02:29.assembly should be based on the same as Scotland and Northern Ireland
:02:30. > :02:34.reserved powers. In other the assembly should have control of
:02:35. > :02:40.everything that is not explicitly restricted to Parliament. The main
:02:41. > :02:46.recommendation has not been enacted and it is causing expensive
:02:47. > :02:50.problems. The model we have now is Scotland's reject. The model was
:02:51. > :02:55.rejected from Scotland when it was considered in the late 1990s because
:02:56. > :02:58.it was considered to be a complicated way of devolving power
:02:59. > :03:02.and they also said it would lead to arguments about what is devolved and
:03:03. > :03:07.what is not devolved about what probably lead to litigation in the
:03:08. > :03:16.courts. That is exactly what has happened in Wales. We have three
:03:17. > :03:20.bills referred to the Supreme Court. And there is consensus on one thing.
:03:21. > :03:25.No one likes this model of devolution, so a whole year after
:03:26. > :03:30.Silk, it seemed a watershed moment when the then UK coalition
:03:31. > :03:34.government made a headline grabbing announcement. More responsibility
:03:35. > :03:41.for the Welsh assembly and more opportunity for the Welsh people to
:03:42. > :03:44.hold their politicians to account. -- Welsh Assembly. It all seemed
:03:45. > :03:50.simple, but let us move our timeline on eight months to the publication
:03:51. > :04:00.of the draft Wales Bill. This was meant to be a consultation, but it
:04:01. > :04:04.wasn't. The first Minister was particularly scathing. It means a
:04:05. > :04:12.veto on Welsh laws. The Assembly not having a free hand. In addition to
:04:13. > :04:17.the relentless criticism of the bill, there was concern that the
:04:18. > :04:21.timetable was to type to permit remedial action. But the secretary
:04:22. > :04:25.of state Steven Crabb said whilst the bill needed to be improved,
:04:26. > :04:30.there was bags of time to do it. And then he changed his mind. What I
:04:31. > :04:35.have demonstrated today is what I have been listening to all along and
:04:36. > :04:38.I have taken on board the valid criticisms people have made and the
:04:39. > :04:42.changes I have announced the right thing to do. The draft legislation
:04:43. > :04:48.has been paused to make the changes needed, but a former wealth of his
:04:49. > :04:58.Minister is not holding my breath. -- Wales office minister. I looked
:04:59. > :05:02.around at the Conservative colleagues of the secretary of state
:05:03. > :05:07.and there are very few if any who have a positive approach to
:05:08. > :05:13.devolution that he has. I have been involved in this for long enough. I
:05:14. > :05:18.have been around for long enough to be sceptical that we will actually
:05:19. > :05:24.get what is promised until we actually have it in our hands. And
:05:25. > :05:29.earlier this week, just be helpful, the Welsh government produced its
:05:30. > :05:35.own draft bill. We have not taken the decision to publish this draft
:05:36. > :05:39.Bill. There is no sense of one-upmanship, rather this bill is a
:05:40. > :05:45.constructive contribution to the debate. With the assembly elections
:05:46. > :05:49.nearly upon us, it seems we are not any clearer on what powers the
:05:50. > :05:49.people we vote for will have in the future.
:05:50. > :05:53.Neither the Secretary of State nor a Wales Office Minister
:05:54. > :05:57.However, a spokesperson provided The Wales Report
:05:58. > :06:01."The Secretary of State has listened to the debate over recent months...
:06:02. > :06:03.He has always been clear the Government will not introduce
:06:04. > :06:05.legislation that would create a pathway to separation.
:06:06. > :06:08.The changes will help deliver on the commitments made
:06:09. > :06:10.in the St Davids Day agreement to introduce a historic funding
:06:11. > :06:12.floor, devolve more powers and remove constitutional red tape
:06:13. > :06:25.to create a stonger Wales in a strong United Kingdom."
:06:26. > :06:28.Joining me now is the Conservative MP and member of the Welsh Affairs
:06:29. > :06:30.Committee Craig Williams, and the Plaid Cymru AM and former
:06:31. > :06:35.Presiding Officer Dafydd Elis Thomas.
:06:36. > :06:41.Welcome to you both. Craig Williams, why did your government get this
:06:42. > :06:48.draft Wales Bill so wrong to you think? In your question there you
:06:49. > :06:52.use the word draft. We published a draft bill, we are changing a draft
:06:53. > :06:56.bill and we are pausing as well. This is what people have been asking
:06:57. > :06:59.and now we are being criticised to doing what people want. Steven Crabb
:07:00. > :07:07.is one of the most pragmatic politicians I know. He has published
:07:08. > :07:12.a draft bill, taking the criticism and has adapted it. He will come
:07:13. > :07:18.back after the Assembly with what will be an excellent bill for Wales.
:07:19. > :07:21.It was way off the mark so. It would result in fewer powers in the hands
:07:22. > :07:27.of the Assembly in Cardiff Bay rather than more. It was moving to
:07:28. > :07:33.the reserved model. It was giving them more powers. We waved the
:07:34. > :07:37.referendum on taxation powers and giving the Assembly clearer
:07:38. > :07:41.accountability. The criticism is about taking away powers from the
:07:42. > :07:47.assembly and it was a detail legal technical argument by lawyers who do
:07:48. > :07:56.argue all day over these issues. It was not technical. Let me bring in
:07:57. > :08:03.Dafydd Elis Thomas. Is this just an Empire it is. We need to be able to
:08:04. > :08:09.get this legislation through as soon as possible so we can plan for the
:08:10. > :08:16.future. We are getting responsibility for the electoral
:08:17. > :08:20.numbers and their is the difficulty of defining the powers. It is the
:08:21. > :08:26.exceptions that are always the problem. If you look at the Northern
:08:27. > :08:33.Ireland act, there is only one schedule. The Welsh government came
:08:34. > :08:37.up with a blueprint this week. You have it in front of you. Is it that
:08:38. > :08:41.way ahead? Do you back that? Absolutely. I challenge the first
:08:42. > :08:48.Minister when he gave evidence to the committee and is wide did the
:08:49. > :08:54.government in Wells not produce their own bill. They have done that,
:08:55. > :08:59.so now the clever thing would be to allow the National Assembly to carry
:09:00. > :09:06.on. We will be in charge of our constitution next time round, so why
:09:07. > :09:14.do we start now? What about that, Craig Williams? Devolving the whole
:09:15. > :09:19.process to the Assembly. It should be decided there, shouldn't it?
:09:20. > :09:26.Rebuilt the Welsh government has come up with, just before an
:09:27. > :09:32.election is incredibly interesting. Liz Savo Roberts asked about police
:09:33. > :09:47.powers, and Labour are split on these issues. Far from it -- far be
:09:48. > :09:51.it from me to defend everything the Welsh government does, but he has
:09:52. > :10:00.done a Peter Hain. He gave us deferred matters with reference to
:10:01. > :10:07.devolved power. We have that and also referred matters. You are
:10:08. > :10:10.holding that is a bit of a blueprint. Your party in the chamber
:10:11. > :10:16.yesterday were doing anything but. They were pretty scathing about
:10:17. > :10:20.that. I take my own counsel on these constitutional matters. I believe
:10:21. > :10:25.the people of Wales trust us as Assembly members, they have trusted
:10:26. > :10:30.us over the years as we have had additional powers and this is the
:10:31. > :10:35.next step. When you say ask, did you mean? Plaid Cymru do the Welsh
:10:36. > :10:41.government? The people of Wells indicated quite clearly, 44% of them
:10:42. > :10:50.want the Assembly to have more powers, 34% want us to have the same
:10:51. > :10:57.powers. It is our responsibility to make sure that this works. When will
:10:58. > :11:03.we this pause come to an end, Craig Williams? I hope the stance
:11:04. > :11:10.continues apace after the Assembly elections. That is quite handy. Kick
:11:11. > :11:17.it in the long grass? Look, it is the Welsh general elections and it
:11:18. > :11:20.is important. I am a pro-devolution conservative as well, so Jenny does
:11:21. > :11:25.not have too look far in the Conservative ranks, but if it pushes
:11:26. > :11:36.in after the assembly elections, we can have a more much you -- a more
:11:37. > :11:45.mature debate rather than getting stuck into Westminster and getting
:11:46. > :11:51.the bill delivered. Finally, Dafydd Elis Thomas, when will we get a
:11:52. > :11:55.lasting settlement? There is no lasting settlement in politics,
:11:56. > :12:02.whether it is the European Union or the United Kingdom. These things
:12:03. > :12:10.always change, there is always democratic scrutiny. Dafydd Elliston
:12:11. > :12:16.is an Craig Williams, thank you very much. -- Dafydd Elliston.
:12:17. > :12:18.As part of BBC Wales' How Wales Works season,
:12:19. > :12:21.The Wales Report has been speaking to the main party leaders in Wales
:12:22. > :12:25.to find out how they'd run things if they won power in May.
:12:26. > :12:26.Over the past weeks, we've heard from Ukip,
:12:27. > :12:28.the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives.
:12:29. > :12:31.Tonight it's turn of the Labour leader in Wales, Carwyn Jones.
:12:32. > :12:33.Before we talk to the First Minister, Professor Richard Wyn
:12:34. > :12:36.Jones from the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University takes
:12:37. > :12:48.a look at the challenges ahead for Labour.
:12:49. > :12:55.This is potentially the most difficult election that the Labour
:12:56. > :13:02.Party has faced since devolution. Labour have been in power for so
:13:03. > :13:09.long, so the time for a change argument becomes ever stronger, and
:13:10. > :13:13.it looks you know is if they are a little bit tired, a little bit
:13:14. > :13:19.jaded. It is striking that so many people in the Labour group are
:13:20. > :13:26.standing down. We now have Jeremy Corbyn, who is a mighty character,
:13:27. > :13:30.but there is a lot of evidence to suggest he is not particularly
:13:31. > :13:33.popular and there is lots of evidence to suggest that Welsh
:13:34. > :13:37.Labour are trying to distance themselves from him. Now that is a
:13:38. > :13:42.really tough combination for Carwyn Jones in the election.
:13:43. > :13:50.The threshold for success is interesting for Labour in the Welsh
:13:51. > :13:55.election. There is a kind of a margin between 25 which would be a
:13:56. > :14:01.really poor result, 30 would be remarkably good. That is the range
:14:02. > :14:08.in which we're talking here. In terms of Carwyn Jones own position,
:14:09. > :14:15.as they can get 27, 28, that would be something of a triumph. If they
:14:16. > :14:18.are down to 2526, his future is then in question.
:14:19. > :14:33.You are asking the people of Wales for a fifth term in government. That
:14:34. > :14:38.is an awful long time. Is that healthy for the Welsh people? We're
:14:39. > :14:42.halfway through a decade of delivery and we have had a record-breaking
:14:43. > :14:48.Tory cuts to our budget. But we've been able to deliver. We have seen
:14:49. > :14:52.Aston Martin come to Wales, we have seen Jobs Growth Wales, unemployment
:14:53. > :14:58.lower than London, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Some people will
:14:59. > :15:04.say it is another election, you need to look at the change that people
:15:05. > :15:09.change their car but he wouldn't change a carphone old banger. You
:15:10. > :15:15.are halfway through a decade of delivery. You have been in power for
:15:16. > :15:20.17 years, you are talking about five years of delivery, whatever you been
:15:21. > :15:26.doing for 12 years? I have then First Minister since 2009. Forget
:15:27. > :15:36.the Rhodri Morgan years? I have been the person leading the party since
:15:37. > :15:43.2011. Hang on, are you saying... We have got better GCSE results, the
:15:44. > :15:48.best ever. Labour has been in power for 17 years. You have had other
:15:49. > :15:53.people, you have been at the wheel for 17 years, talking about cars.
:15:54. > :15:58.Let's be straight, are you disowning those first 12 years and saying we
:15:59. > :16:05.didn't delivered a thing as Mac you delivered from day one, didn't you?
:16:06. > :16:11.Of course we did. I went into the election in 2011 for the first time
:16:12. > :16:18.as leader of the Welsh Labour Party. The trudging Morgan deliver? Of
:16:19. > :16:24.course he is. But he hasn't been First Minister since 2009. I know
:16:25. > :16:29.Plaid Cymru likes to pretend they weren't in government for four years
:16:30. > :16:35.but they were. We are saying we're not far from it. We are not
:16:36. > :16:38.complacent. If you look at the pledges we have launched, they are
:16:39. > :16:46.original and our manifesto will be the same. Let's look at the pledges.
:16:47. > :16:53.You are offering and a million two increase standards in schools. It's
:16:54. > :16:56.built on what we have done already. That is more money in the Welsh
:16:57. > :17:00.education system that they would have been without the pledge in
:17:01. > :17:06.2011. Schools are being built across Wales. People can see them in their
:17:07. > :17:09.communities. We know for example the Conservatives want to cut school
:17:10. > :17:12.spending by 12%. That is they entered the school building
:17:13. > :17:17.programme. Your pledge this year is 100,000
:17:18. > :17:24.quality apprenticeships for all ages. Last election, tackling youth
:17:25. > :17:29.unemployment is by creating a fund and extending apprenticeships. What
:17:30. > :17:32.is the difference? If you look at Jobs Growth Wales, 15,000 young
:17:33. > :17:37.people had the opportunity to train and many of them went on to job was
:17:38. > :17:46.that builds on them because this is a scheme for ages. People need to
:17:47. > :17:51.retrain at all stages. In 2011 new promised free nursery places and
:17:52. > :17:54.better support for families, this time, free childcare for working
:17:55. > :17:59.parents. We were talking about flying start in 2011 and that will
:18:00. > :18:04.stay. We know how difficult it is for people to get childcare and that
:18:05. > :18:10.is why we're making sure for 30 hours a week, 48 weeks year parents
:18:11. > :18:14.will be able to get access to childcare. It is important for
:18:15. > :18:18.people in terms of accessibility Vostok was these tweaks in what you
:18:19. > :18:24.are offering. There is no radical been thinking. You have been there
:18:25. > :18:34.for 17 years. But Kimberly says Wales need a break. -- but Plaid
:18:35. > :18:39.Cymru. Doubling the capital limits of people who go into residential
:18:40. > :18:44.care, older people, that is not radical. These are radical pledges.
:18:45. > :18:48.Plaid Cymru, what are they offering? They want to set up a quango. They
:18:49. > :18:52.want to centralise all health services in that they have run from
:18:53. > :18:58.Cardiff. We offer jobs, Plaid Cymru offers committees. You don't want to
:18:59. > :19:02.talk about the constitution that you have published 180 pages on the
:19:03. > :19:09.constitution, on alternative draft Wales Bill. Is that wise to do that?
:19:10. > :19:14.There was nothing else on the table. The UK Government had a chance that
:19:15. > :19:18.it was so flawed nobody supported it. It is important for the people
:19:19. > :19:24.of Wales to see what we think is the way forward. What I want to do is
:19:25. > :19:27.get to a position where everything is settled, will we understand what
:19:28. > :19:31.the Assembly can do, what the UK Government does, whether it is no
:19:32. > :19:37.confusion and this is the big opportunity. Lots of things included
:19:38. > :19:40.are the things your own party members in Westminster have
:19:41. > :19:47.abstained on. You need a word with them. I spoke to them last week. We
:19:48. > :19:52.know that things have changed. We know we want to see devolution move
:19:53. > :20:01.forward and above all as Scotland get certainty, Wales get forge. We
:20:02. > :20:06.don't want that. Why should we be in the worse position than Scotland.
:20:07. > :20:13.Can I ask, that is the Welsh Government document. Who has been
:20:14. > :20:18.working on that? You're civil servants? It is our response to the
:20:19. > :20:23.UK Government. Is that the best use of Welsh civil servants? If we
:20:24. > :20:26.hadn't done that you would be sitting there saying, you have told
:20:27. > :20:31.is what you don't like about the UK Government Bill, what is your
:20:32. > :20:35.response? Way have you been? Why didn't you put that on the table
:20:36. > :20:40.when it comes to the Saint Davids the agreements? That is mythical,
:20:41. > :20:46.there has never been an agreement or negotiation. We made the point it
:20:47. > :20:51.was deeply flawed but there were others making the same point. We
:20:52. > :20:55.worked on this bill as an alternative for months. As a
:20:56. > :20:59.response to the UK Government 's's failures. We have wasted a year when
:21:00. > :21:03.we could've been moving forward. But this is an electioneering because
:21:04. > :21:08.it's about the agenda and you don't tell Stephen Crabb in advance we are
:21:09. > :21:13.trying this up. You dump this on his desk, how would you feel if you did
:21:14. > :21:18.the to you? That is exactly what he did. He dumped a Wales Bill honours
:21:19. > :21:25.without consulting us. But it was licensed the legislation. --
:21:26. > :21:30.Westminster legislation. We were told they would be a negotiation but
:21:31. > :21:35.there wasn't one. Here is your bill, like it or lump it. It isn't just
:21:36. > :21:42.as. All the parties in Wales said it was an acceptable. As part of our
:21:43. > :21:48.response people would have told this what our alternative is, this is at.
:21:49. > :21:53.Ron Davies said devolution is a process not an event. This week you
:21:54. > :21:59.said let's make devolution and event and not a process. Is this its? Is
:22:00. > :22:05.this as fight you want to go down this journey? What this bill would
:22:06. > :22:09.do is provide this with piracy, simplicity and something that is
:22:10. > :22:16.durable for the future in one act. You don't want income tax powers, do
:22:17. > :22:20.you? Yes, I have said so. I explained what I would do with them.
:22:21. > :22:24.Of course we accept income tax powers are going to come, there will
:22:25. > :22:30.be a case in future for new powers as well. Why not ask for them now?
:22:31. > :22:35.We couldn't have them now. That is a trap here. What we will not do is
:22:36. > :22:38.accept the powers if we find that we're going to be stuffed in terms
:22:39. > :22:44.of the financial settlements. Most of the were still come to Wales by a
:22:45. > :22:49.block grant. That has to be sorted. Otherwise we are falling into a
:22:50. > :22:53.trap. They would ideally have settled that. However, this is it
:22:54. > :22:58.come in terms of the delusion you don't want to get any further? In
:22:59. > :23:03.terms of the big picture if this was enacted your bill would be a good
:23:04. > :23:08.smack it takes us to a position where things will be durable for
:23:09. > :23:12.many years. It is is something missing in its people need to see
:23:13. > :23:16.what they think is missing. This is a bill for discussion, we're not
:23:17. > :23:22.saying everything is set in stone. It is a genuine attempt to bring the
:23:23. > :23:25.parties together and look at it. We have told the Wales Office to look
:23:26. > :23:30.at it. This is a better way of doing it. What about your personal
:23:31. > :23:37.journey? Would you say the full-term of this election? It is pushy and
:23:38. > :23:41.arrogant politicians to give their own self-imposed term limit when
:23:42. > :23:46.there is an election coming. It is up to the people of Wales in May
:23:47. > :23:50.whether I am First Minister or not. Are you going to disappear halfway
:23:51. > :23:57.through I will you play the course? And beyond? The first thing is to
:23:58. > :24:00.see what the result is. I am not going to tell the people of Wales
:24:01. > :24:06.what I want to do, it is in their hands. There is presidency. Tony
:24:07. > :24:11.Blair, David Cameron were clear with the electorate. You would serve the
:24:12. > :24:15.whole term if you would win? It is far too early to know what the
:24:16. > :24:23.result of the election would be. Let's pretend you win. Will you
:24:24. > :24:27.serve a full term? I've got no plans to do otherwise. Let's wait to see
:24:28. > :24:32.what happens but I want to be First Minister after me and my intention
:24:33. > :24:37.is to continue. We're not going to sit back and expect votes to come to
:24:38. > :24:42.us. It is a tough election, all elections out. The longer you are in
:24:43. > :24:46.power the tougher it gets. You have hinted in the past, ten years is
:24:47. > :24:51.about right for a leader. You're ten years would be up before the end of
:24:52. > :24:59.the next full-term. I want to win the election in May one. What we
:25:00. > :25:02.want to do is put forward to the people of Wales well costed,
:25:03. > :25:09.exciting promises. We've got the drive, the energy and the momentum.
:25:10. > :25:18.Carwyn Jones, thank you. That was the last of our wet interviews with
:25:19. > :25:18.the party leaders. If you want to get involved in discussions please
:25:19. > :25:20.contact us. Wales is a country with a fantastic
:25:21. > :25:23.natural environment But why are so many of our towns
:25:24. > :25:29.and cities grey and drab? Research in recent years has found
:25:30. > :25:33.that access to good quality green spaces can have long lasting
:25:34. > :25:36.benefits for our mental health, so what should be done to bring
:25:37. > :25:39.nature into our built Dr Ruth Williams from
:25:40. > :25:44.the Landscape Institute argues that the answer could lie
:25:45. > :25:48.in green infrastructure - that's finding natural solutions
:25:49. > :25:50.to urban problems like flood There's so many different ways
:25:51. > :25:55.the environment can help us. There are so many health benefits
:25:56. > :26:00.research is showing, both our mental health and physical
:26:01. > :26:03.health can be helped as well as reducing flood risk,
:26:04. > :26:07.as well as providing There is multiple benefits and ways
:26:08. > :26:13.the environment can help us. A green infrastructure is a way
:26:14. > :26:18.of delivering that for us. Green infrastructure is working
:26:19. > :26:23.with nature around our developments. So it can be a simple as a border
:26:24. > :26:27.of lavender that can act as a barrier to stop children
:26:28. > :26:31.falling down a steep bank. It can be from the very local
:26:32. > :26:34.and small-scale to a massive scale in terms of the way we might design
:26:35. > :26:38.around a new motorway or around It is always looking at working
:26:39. > :26:43.with nature and seeing what we have got rather than building
:26:44. > :26:47.the concrete and then saying, why have we ended up
:26:48. > :26:51.with these problems? What is important is our urban
:26:52. > :26:55.communities in south east Wales, north east Wales, many of those
:26:56. > :26:58.communities don't have There isn't the nature
:26:59. > :27:02.on their doorstep, there are few parks that people can reach
:27:03. > :27:06.all greenery in their streets. This is very, very important at that
:27:07. > :27:10.streetscape level that we actually see this green infrastructure
:27:11. > :27:13.coming to the fore. It's about thinking more cleverly
:27:14. > :27:19.about the way we plan these areas. Here we are in Llanelli town centre
:27:20. > :27:22.but this is typical of the scene We don't see much evidence
:27:23. > :27:28.of green infrastructure here. What we'd like to see much more
:27:29. > :27:32.bringing nature into our towns and cities so we can get this
:27:33. > :27:36.win-win situation for the health and benefits of the people
:27:37. > :27:41.as well as the places. Everyone that is involved
:27:42. > :27:43.in planning a development needs to think right from point one
:27:44. > :27:46.of building in green infrastructure into every single development
:27:47. > :27:51.and taking that forward. That is the big change we need
:27:52. > :27:53.to see in Wales. We are here in Llanelli at a special
:27:54. > :27:58.project that Dwr Cymru This doesn't look like a huge
:27:59. > :28:04.project but underneath the ground a lot of work has gone on in order
:28:05. > :28:08.to reduce the flooding for the local Michelle, if you hadn't
:28:09. > :28:12.taken this approach, what would have been another way
:28:13. > :28:15.of tackling these problems? We did a modelling exercise
:28:16. > :28:18.which said we would need a storage tank to the field which would be
:28:19. > :28:22.the same size as Parc y Scarlets We reduced the cost to around
:28:23. > :28:28.150 million so it is a massive Here we see a really good example,
:28:29. > :28:34.albeit it a small example, of the win-win situation for Wales,
:28:35. > :28:38.benefits for the local people in terms of reducing flood
:28:39. > :28:43.to their homes and also providing a lovely green space
:28:44. > :28:49.for them to enjoy. What we are calling
:28:50. > :28:51.on the new Welsh Government after the election to do is to take
:28:52. > :28:54.some leadership in this area. One of the ways we think they can do
:28:55. > :28:58.this is by appointing a cabinet So many different aspects
:28:59. > :29:02.to our lives will be enhanced if we look at things through a green
:29:03. > :29:05.lens rather than through the typical Joining me now is Carole-Anne
:29:06. > :29:14.Davies, chief executive of the Design Commission for Wales,
:29:15. > :29:30.and landscape architect, Welcome to you both. Merry, I. With
:29:31. > :29:37.you. We are blessed in Wales with a fantastic countryside. Can we really
:29:38. > :29:41.say that the people of Wales aren't privileged? Well, I think we do have
:29:42. > :29:45.the potential for access to wonderful green spaces and the
:29:46. > :29:48.coastline of course as we saw in that film, but what of the things
:29:49. > :29:56.you have to think about is, as was pointed out, city centres, town
:29:57. > :30:02.centres, urban areas, housing estates, the level of access to
:30:03. > :30:07.green space that people have in that context and how easy is it for them
:30:08. > :30:14.to get out into this green environment? Carol Ann, is it a
:30:15. > :30:21.matter of a few hanging baskets? A few pots heaven there? It is not
:30:22. > :30:27.about that, is it? Is it far deeper, and also about a cultural shift? It
:30:28. > :30:30.can be about the cultural shift, it's also about integrated
:30:31. > :30:36.partnerships and all sectors working together. The really successful
:30:37. > :30:46.examples of what you might describe as urban shorelines are in the
:30:47. > :30:49.European centres and it is about everyone working together and
:30:50. > :30:54.realising the value of what the green infrastructure can deliver.
:30:55. > :31:00.What can it offer? Health benefits as well as the utilities. Water
:31:01. > :31:04.management is one of the issues of our age. If you can combine that
:31:05. > :31:10.with raising the quality of urban neighbourhoods, you are a long way
:31:11. > :31:13.to achieving quite a lot. You talk about improving well-being, but most
:31:14. > :31:17.people will say they need a job in a strong economy and better transport
:31:18. > :31:23.links to get to those jobs. Camber to work hand-in-hand? The M4 relief
:31:24. > :31:29.road and better jobs are the people of Wales and still green spaces?
:31:30. > :31:39.Transport infrastructure is hugely important in connecting places. We
:31:40. > :31:44.have too look at that as the key design opportunity of our age. We
:31:45. > :31:49.need to harness design talent to transform our neighbourhoods. But if
:31:50. > :31:53.you are stuck on the motorway, try to get to your job, you are not
:31:54. > :31:58.worried about green spaces, are you? You aren't at that specific moments,
:31:59. > :32:06.but the key word is infrastructure. You were talking about transport
:32:07. > :32:12.infrastructure, water managements infrastructure. Green elements
:32:13. > :32:18.should be combined into a wider view, a wider vision of a green
:32:19. > :32:22.infrastructure that contains them and then you harness what they are
:32:23. > :32:29.doing to provide green spaces. Conductivity is one of the key
:32:30. > :32:33.concepts one we talk about green infrastructures, the linking of
:32:34. > :32:37.things. Finally, back to the politicians. Would you say they are
:32:38. > :32:41.working against nature? The plea here from Doctor Ruth Williams is to
:32:42. > :32:46.get them to work with nature. Is that the sense you are giving us,
:32:47. > :32:49.that it is not on the agenda? In planning policy in Wells and
:32:50. > :32:55.development policy there are a number of good things we could be
:32:56. > :32:59.doing more to deliver on and part of that is a worry about cost, but I
:33:00. > :33:03.think when you look at the wider betterment and public good that you
:33:04. > :33:11.return to your investments, then we should be able to do something. And
:33:12. > :33:16.there is a future generation, are they doing their bit? They are doing
:33:17. > :33:20.their bit and they are promoting a more holistic view of things rather
:33:21. > :33:27.than focusing on just elements like transportation, but we are
:33:28. > :33:31.advocating that this idea that you can bring things together, when you
:33:32. > :33:39.think about what benefits greater than merely providing the M4
:33:40. > :33:44.corridor of the traffic relief on the motorways, when you think about
:33:45. > :33:48.people's enjoyment of their environment, the ability to use it,
:33:49. > :33:52.the beauty they can get from it and how that rebounds on their
:33:53. > :33:54.well-being. Thank you both for coming in.
:33:55. > :34:01.But if you'd like to have your say and be part of the audience
:34:02. > :34:04.for a special debate with the party leaders ahead of the Assembly
:34:05. > :34:06.E-mail us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk
:34:07. > :34:08.or on social media we are @TheWalesReport.
:34:09. > :34:11.We'll be back next week, thanks for watching.