:00:00. > :00:09.Tonight on The Wales Report - From Nursery to University,
:00:10. > :00:13.the Welsh Government is responsible for your education.
:00:14. > :00:16.In two weeks you'll have your say at the ballot box and tonight we'll
:00:17. > :00:18.hear what the five main parties are offering you.
:00:19. > :00:32.Stay with us for Election Wales 2016.
:00:33. > :00:45.This year the Welsh Government spends ?1.7 billion on education -
:00:46. > :00:48.and throughout the first 17 years of devolution it's been an area
:00:49. > :00:56.poor performance in international rankings and radical curriculum
:00:57. > :00:59.reform - this is the policy area which has diverged most
:01:00. > :01:08.Tonight we ask whether the Welsh system is up to scratch.
:01:09. > :01:12.Join in the debate on social media - #thewalesreport.
:01:13. > :01:15.with some teachers' views from Ferndale Community School
:01:16. > :01:31.Wherever you are from should not effect your opportunities in life or
:01:32. > :01:35.your target in life because everybody is the same after all. It
:01:36. > :01:38.doesn't matter about your background, as long as you work
:01:39. > :01:45.hard, even if you find it difficult, if it is what you want to do, go for
:01:46. > :01:54.that subject. Why is this a good example? I do feel pressure with my
:01:55. > :01:58.job, there are pressures put on teachers but they are there because
:01:59. > :02:03.we want the students to do well. I think they should be supporting
:02:04. > :02:11.places for teachers to ensure that they are able to manage workload and
:02:12. > :02:14.there are opportunities for development and nurturing talent
:02:15. > :02:19.because there are so many successful teachers we need to make sure stay
:02:20. > :02:26.in the profession. I think there is a greater focus now on the
:02:27. > :02:29.attainment of schools and it's not a bad thing. The first thing we had to
:02:30. > :02:36.know is how well we were competing with other nations, internationally.
:02:37. > :02:39.The fact we were found wanting in certain areas is not a bad thing,
:02:40. > :02:44.you need to know where you are and what needs to be done in order to
:02:45. > :02:48.improve. I would like to see flexibility in the system for
:02:49. > :02:53.schools to address the particular needs of learners in its care. As we
:02:54. > :02:56.move towards ever increasing standards regarding qualifications,
:02:57. > :03:00.that the curriculum is not restricted so much that
:03:01. > :03:06.opportunities for children are increasingly narrowed. There has to
:03:07. > :03:09.be some pressure on us to do well but I think when we are under
:03:10. > :03:16.pressure we get worried and we don't do as well. Whereas when we are more
:03:17. > :03:20.relaxed and we know what we are doing and are calm, we tend to
:03:21. > :03:22.succeed better than when we are nervous.
:03:23. > :03:25.Views from Ferndale Community School there.
:03:26. > :03:26.Joining me tonight - from the Labour Party,
:03:27. > :03:31.From the Conservatives, Angela Burns.
:03:32. > :03:40.And Eluned Parrott fom the Liberal Democrats.
:03:41. > :03:44.There are, of course, other parties standing
:03:45. > :03:47.in the election - you can get all the information on the BBC
:03:48. > :03:58.Thank you for joining us tonight. Let's start with money because that
:03:59. > :04:05.is the key, many would argue. Huw Lewis, we know pupils in Wales
:04:06. > :04:11.receive less money than those in England and have done for years so
:04:12. > :04:16.why do they deserve less money? None of this is true. There is an old
:04:17. > :04:23.figure, you said for years... The last figure is 2011. The last figure
:04:24. > :04:29.is quite a way back in time. Have we caught up? We have overtaken England
:04:30. > :04:32.in the educational spend, the figures from the Treasury showed
:04:33. > :04:35.that Wales is 4% ahead of England. We have been investing in our
:04:36. > :04:39.schools but in England things have been going in a different direction
:04:40. > :04:45.and that is a matter for them but it is true that we have put ?200
:04:46. > :04:51.million extra over this semi term investment into our schools, our
:04:52. > :05:03.front line. -- over this Assembly term. Why have you decreased it?
:05:04. > :05:08.There is a relative protection in terms of school spent and what we
:05:09. > :05:13.have seen in terms of everyday spend, ?200 million extra, but also,
:05:14. > :05:15.let's not forget the eighth ?2 billion programme of capital
:05:16. > :05:20.investment in school buildings. We are carrying on with investment in
:05:21. > :05:25.schools, a programme which ground to a halt under the Conservatives in
:05:26. > :05:31.England. It has carried on in Wales. A lot of you were sniggering. You
:05:32. > :05:35.don't believe this figure? I'm afraid not. The National union of
:05:36. > :05:40.teachers were clear not long ago, they put together what they thought
:05:41. > :05:44.their funding gap was now and it is in the order of the height 700s. And
:05:45. > :05:49.one of the ways to release funding for schools is to directly fund them
:05:50. > :05:54.and that way they will be able to get more money to the front line and
:05:55. > :06:03.empower headteachers and teachers to reflect what their community needs.
:06:04. > :06:07.Are we talking academies? No, it is horses for courses essentially and
:06:08. > :06:11.there is no desire to have academies here. We have so much structural
:06:12. > :06:14.change happening at the moment in education and we need to empower
:06:15. > :06:17.those headteachers, give them the funds because they know their
:06:18. > :06:22.communities and they need to be freed up, as your report showed,
:06:23. > :06:26.teachers are... What is the difference between what you are
:06:27. > :06:32.proposing and an academy? None whatsoever. Directly funding school
:06:33. > :06:35.under the scrutiny of the local education authority and empowering
:06:36. > :06:40.headteachers to spend their money for their school... It sounds like
:06:41. > :06:44.an Academy. Of course not because there was no private investment,
:06:45. > :06:49.this is about ensuring that more money, we want to aim for 90%, it
:06:50. > :06:57.was a Labour goal, another they sadly failed to achieve. We want 90%
:06:58. > :07:00.to get to the front line. We need schools with money, teachers that
:07:01. > :07:05.are empowered to deliver what that local community wants all stop would
:07:06. > :07:09.you increase spending per pupil in Plaid Cymru?
:07:10. > :07:15.We have the recognised this is a tight spend, delivering money
:07:16. > :07:18.directly to schools does not help, they just had to buy back the
:07:19. > :07:22.services provided by the local education authority. If you have a
:07:23. > :07:26.child with special needs in your school, it can be extremely
:07:27. > :07:30.expensive for small schools to cope with. At the moment it is dealt with
:07:31. > :07:33.by the local authorities are giving the funding directly to the school
:07:34. > :07:40.does not help them. The overall funding alone the -- envelope
:07:41. > :07:44.includes spending on higher education and we will come onto that
:07:45. > :07:48.but it is important to say that when the Labour Party says we spend more
:07:49. > :07:55.on education in Wales, it isn't just schools. If you just take schools
:07:56. > :08:00.and compare them like for like,... And we are focusing on school at the
:08:01. > :08:04.moment. We have to get more to the front line, I don't dispute that.
:08:05. > :08:11.Would you spend more per pupil in Wales? Overall, yes. But we have to
:08:12. > :08:12.be honest, this is not a huge spending splurge, we don't have the
:08:13. > :08:23.resources. You -- Ukip, would you increase spending
:08:24. > :08:28.per pupil in Wales? We want to look at the way the funding is allocated
:08:29. > :08:32.to the schools and make sure we use the same formula throughout Wales
:08:33. > :08:38.for each school, taking into account any special needs that school may
:08:39. > :08:42.have. We have not had the statistics to look at the difference in funding
:08:43. > :08:47.so whether the figures you are giving us are true or not, I could
:08:48. > :08:51.not comment. The English figures don't exist because they have been
:08:52. > :08:56.obscured by the Conservative government. I can give you a Welsh
:08:57. > :09:05.figures. Would you increase spending on education? Yes, we would. The
:09:06. > :09:11.Liberal Democrats? Would you increase spending per pupil in
:09:12. > :09:17.Wales? We would target the spending we have for education. The pupil
:09:18. > :09:20.deprivation grant was eight key Welsh Lib Dem priority introduced in
:09:21. > :09:24.partnership with the Welsh Government and it has been the most
:09:25. > :09:28.successful education policy in terms of social mobility and improving
:09:29. > :09:32.outcomes come lowering the gap between the poorest and wealthiest
:09:33. > :09:36.pupils. We have to macro priorities, one of those is to increase and
:09:37. > :09:42.extend that grant to make sure we can continue to close the gap. As
:09:43. > :09:46.the pupils said in the film, it should not matter where you came
:09:47. > :09:50.from and what your start in life is, you should have an equal crack at
:09:51. > :09:57.the whip. It sounds expensive, where would you cut to fund it? Scrapping
:09:58. > :10:01.the regional consortia which are a layer of bureaucracy which we do not
:10:02. > :10:05.think it is helpful or productive for the schools and as part of that
:10:06. > :10:09.package of funding, that is one thing we would do. Looking at
:10:10. > :10:12.standards, there is so much to talk about the standards, teacher
:10:13. > :10:18.training and the standard of teaching in Wales. The annual report
:10:19. > :10:22.in 2016 talks of a huge contrast in teaching between the best and the
:10:23. > :10:27.worst schools and the best schools are often in deprived areas so you
:10:28. > :10:35.cannot blame socioeconomic factors. Why is it? It is all about the
:10:36. > :10:40.quality of teaching. That is why we have embarked upon the biggest
:10:41. > :10:44.reform programme since 1944 which has at its heart, and further
:10:45. > :10:50.community School is one of the Pioneer schools in this regard, --
:10:51. > :10:54.Ferndale Community School. It is all about raising the skill levels and
:10:55. > :11:01.aptitude levels of the teachers. Is this a new programme? It has been
:11:02. > :11:09.embarked upon over the last few months. It's not new. The First
:11:10. > :11:13.Minister admitted he took his eye off the ball when it came to
:11:14. > :11:18.education after ten years of drift and decline. I don't disagree with
:11:19. > :11:22.something 's Huw has said, it is fairly new, looking at teacher
:11:23. > :11:25.training and standards I don't disagree with that. The key to
:11:26. > :11:30.improving the system is in that but I disagree that the Labour Party is
:11:31. > :11:32.capable of doing it because they have inherited and continued with a
:11:33. > :11:37.decline in standards relative to the rest of the UK -- rest of the UK.
:11:38. > :11:45.With the best will in the world, with ten years of decline. And four
:11:46. > :11:51.years with the Liberal Democrats before that. We know who to blame.
:11:52. > :11:57.We're not just offering a blame game. What would you do to drive
:11:58. > :12:02.teaching standards? We would look at the successful schools in the
:12:03. > :12:06.valleys like Ferndale, they have excellent leaders in their schools,
:12:07. > :12:09.excellent headteachers, excellent departmental heads who are able to
:12:10. > :12:14.drive standards and motivate and infuse not only the teachers but the
:12:15. > :12:16.staff around them. We need to invest in those leadership skills for our
:12:17. > :12:22.schools to make sure they succeed in the future. Your big idea is Grammar
:12:23. > :12:26.schools. How would you focus on getting the best teachers? What is
:12:27. > :12:32.your policy for getting the best teachers? Well, grammar schools is
:12:33. > :12:39.not the only thing, obviously. We'd like to see the reintroduction of
:12:40. > :12:42.grammar schools. Why? What would the reintroduction of grammar schools
:12:43. > :12:47.achieve for standards? We don't feel one size fits all, comprehensive
:12:48. > :12:50.schools don't suit every child. I put two children through
:12:51. > :12:55.comprehensive schools. So have I and they came out wonderfully. That
:12:56. > :13:00.isn't because it was a comprehensive School, that is because your
:13:01. > :13:05.children where able to do it. I went to a grammar school and I saw my
:13:06. > :13:08.fellow pupils written off at the age of 11 when they couldn't even get a
:13:09. > :13:11.levels at that stage, they were told they could not go to university,
:13:12. > :13:19.they were for May bring jobs and nothing else. You are going back 30
:13:20. > :13:22.years with no clue about the modern world. It's important to realise a
:13:23. > :13:29.couple of things about the teaching profession, we have over 100 empty
:13:30. > :13:34.headteacher posts in schools in Wales, more days taken off sick for
:13:35. > :13:41.stress by teachers, teachers feel under the cosh, overregulated,
:13:42. > :13:44.underfunded and under supported. What is the idea? A centre for
:13:45. > :13:48.education? A number of things and they tie in together, one is about
:13:49. > :13:53.freeing up headteachers and allowing a school to react to its community.
:13:54. > :13:58.You can tie that in with a more robust initial teacher training
:13:59. > :14:02.programme, two years to produce teachers that are really, really
:14:03. > :14:05.top-quality and have all the skills and supports. They are not popped
:14:06. > :14:11.into a job and expected to learn on the job. And you can tie it in with
:14:12. > :14:18.a college of teaching that works with the government and with Iestyn
:14:19. > :14:22.to support teachers, to set standards, to enable continuous
:14:23. > :14:27.professional development. To do disciplinary matters as well. A
:14:28. > :14:31.college that can really set the standards. We are leaving education
:14:32. > :14:34.to the educators, not to a micromanaging government because
:14:35. > :14:37.that is what has gone horribly wrong in the last 17 years. We just heard
:14:38. > :14:43.from the front line of Ferndale Community School, where these things
:14:44. > :14:46.that there are many things that I do not disagree with which are
:14:47. > :14:51.happening and being controlled by the teaching professionals. You let
:14:52. > :14:55.standards slip on your watch. Would you acknowledge you let standards
:14:56. > :15:01.slip on your watch? Standards have risen every year. Professor John
:15:02. > :15:05.Furlong said there is a broad consensus across Wales that in
:15:06. > :15:12.relation to current enquire requirements teacher education is
:15:13. > :15:18.not as strong as it should be. Who commissioned that? This is why we
:15:19. > :15:23.have a completely new future for initial teacher training. It is
:15:24. > :15:26.being laid out through the Furlong report, a review I commission, a
:15:27. > :15:30.Welsh Labour government has acted upon it. And came back and slap you
:15:31. > :15:34.in the face and said it was not good enough. The reason I asked John
:15:35. > :15:37.Furlong to undertake the review was we knew full well there were gaps in
:15:38. > :15:41.the system and we were not performing as well as we could. Can
:15:42. > :15:46.I say there is one inescapable truth. There is no education system
:15:47. > :15:52.that can be better than the quality of the teachers that teach it. That
:15:53. > :15:53.is why teachers are so incredibly important and why the Welsh
:15:54. > :16:00.Conservatives are absolutely proud of the fact we have put teachers in
:16:01. > :16:04.the centre of our manifesto. On teachers, Susan Boucher, tell us
:16:05. > :16:08.your plan, would you change the way teachers operate in Wales or are you
:16:09. > :16:12.happy with the status quo? I'm very concerned about teachers in Wales.
:16:13. > :16:17.Number of my friends are in the teaching profession and they are
:16:18. > :16:23.absolutely old down with paperwork, performance management, lesson
:16:24. > :16:31.planning. Teachers need a new deal to tackle this. They are working
:16:32. > :16:36.until nine o'clock at night marking. Tell us what your plan is, how would
:16:37. > :16:40.you change that? We would want to reduce the teachers' workload, make
:16:41. > :16:44.sure we put in the right teachers into our schools, that they've got
:16:45. > :16:49.the right qualifications. It's all very well putting qualified teachers
:16:50. > :16:53.in with skills in science and mathematics at we're not retaining
:16:54. > :16:57.them. We have to make sure that we keep these excellent teachers in our
:16:58. > :17:02.schools to raise standards. Because, let's be honest, the Labour
:17:03. > :17:05.government has let it slip really badly. Let's look at testing
:17:06. > :17:12.concerning many pupils and parents, and your proposals. Would pupils be
:17:13. > :17:15.tested more, less or about the same as they are tested at the moment? We
:17:16. > :17:20.think the level of testing we have at the moment is very bureaucratic,
:17:21. > :17:25.it is very burdensome for schools, so we need to make sure that we are
:17:26. > :17:29.refining that and making it as simple to deliver as possible.
:17:30. > :17:32.However, we must make sure we are assessing pupils appropriately and
:17:33. > :17:36.regularly throughout their school life. We certainly do not want to
:17:37. > :17:41.increase the burden of testing our pupils have at the moment. As they
:17:42. > :17:45.are tested at the moment, you would stay like that. Simon Thomas, more
:17:46. > :17:49.or less testing? The long-term aim is to move away from the testing we
:17:50. > :17:53.have at the moment, that is set out in Donaldson, the new curriculum in
:17:54. > :17:55.Wales and the way the profession itself will become more
:17:56. > :17:59.self-regulating and self testing if you like and I want to get to a
:18:00. > :18:05.position which cannot be done overnight, I will not drop testing
:18:06. > :18:09.overnight because there is a... That is the goal? No testing and Plaid
:18:10. > :18:14.Cymru, that's the vision? That's the vision and not just Plaid Cymru,
:18:15. > :18:17.Donaldson, an independent report says that command all the main
:18:18. > :18:22.parties have said that's the way forward for education in Wales. Are
:18:23. > :18:27.some good examples in Wales are in a Plaid Cymru run authority, it has a
:18:28. > :18:31.good way of tracking individual schools, not with tests but almost
:18:32. > :18:34.daily knowledge of what they are achieving and that must be rolled
:18:35. > :18:38.out throughout Wales. Testing, Carwyn Jones said clearly last week
:18:39. > :18:43.I want testing and I want to know how my children are doing. Would you
:18:44. > :18:48.continue with the status quo, or do you want more testing? I know you
:18:49. > :18:52.are leaving but what would a Labour government offer? It is imperative
:18:53. > :18:56.to stick with testing for this period of time. But as Simon has
:18:57. > :19:00.said, he is quite right, the future for Wales and Welsh education is
:19:01. > :19:03.laid out in the Donaldson report and it's about evolution towards where
:19:04. > :19:06.the best systems in the world actually are, which is about
:19:07. > :19:11.assessment for learning been driven by the professional in the
:19:12. > :19:16.classroom. But we're not ready for that yet. There are stages we need
:19:17. > :19:19.to pass through to get there. You scrapped testing for 14-year-olds,
:19:20. > :19:26.Sats went. I didn't scrapped testing. Labour government did. You
:19:27. > :19:32.stopped it. Many people interpret that period as the period you to
:19:33. > :19:36.your eye off the ball. As a government, not you personally, Huw
:19:37. > :19:40.Lewis, but the government. Going back to testing, is that returning
:19:41. > :19:43.to taking your eye off the ball? I would encourage everyone, and I
:19:44. > :19:46.think there is a consensus almost around the table here, that the
:19:47. > :19:54.destination for us is to be somewhere where the finished
:19:55. > :19:57.education system, the Dutch education system -- the Finnish
:19:58. > :20:00.education system. The stuff being in the hands of the professional and
:20:01. > :20:04.about my plastic testing individualised to the people.
:20:05. > :20:09.International comparisons, which bring us onto Pisa, the
:20:10. > :20:15.International tests for 65 countries, and Wales in maths it
:20:16. > :20:22.came 43rd, reading 41st, science 36 are not great. Angela for the
:20:23. > :20:26.Conservatives, Angela Burns, what would be your approach to Pisa?
:20:27. > :20:32.Would you prioritise it more than the current government? No, I
:20:33. > :20:35.wouldn't because it goes down a difficult path. It is important to
:20:36. > :20:40.keep the Pisa testing because it gives as a benchmark and we need
:20:41. > :20:44.benchmarks because I agree that we were led into the wilderness years
:20:45. > :20:48.by Labour when they scrapped everything. Let's be clear, there is
:20:49. > :20:51.a huge amount of change in education, the Donaldson Review,
:20:52. > :20:54.everything happening with teacher training, and we cannot put yet
:20:55. > :21:01.another rigorous set of mechanisms in place. When Wales doesn't perform
:21:02. > :21:04.greatly, may at the end of this year, you will not attack them? You
:21:05. > :21:09.have just said you would not put more weight on them and you are
:21:10. > :21:12.happy to park them in a way. I didn't say I would park them, but I
:21:13. > :21:19.wouldn't change my curriculum just to meet a Pisa test result. How will
:21:20. > :21:24.performance improved? We must look at a range of benchmarks including
:21:25. > :21:27.Pisa, Pisa is incredibly important because it tells us where we are on
:21:28. > :21:33.the global stage and benchmarking is incredibly important. The right way
:21:34. > :21:37.to use things like Pisa as a benchmark is if we start to fall
:21:38. > :21:40.back and fail we have to ask ourselves fundamental questions
:21:41. > :21:43.about why that is the case. The problem with the way testing is
:21:44. > :21:47.delivered in Wales at the moment is it is aiming for the average, you
:21:48. > :21:51.are trying to get a cohort to the average performance for their group.
:21:52. > :21:55.What we are not doing is teaching individuals to achieve to the best
:21:56. > :21:59.of their individual ability and that unfortunately is a big failing in
:22:00. > :22:05.the systematic moment. There seems to be a disconnect come and tell me
:22:06. > :22:07.if I'm wrong, when it comes to Pisa. In that governments and opposition
:22:08. > :22:10.parties put a great deal of emphasis on them but schools don't because
:22:11. > :22:19.they are focusing on GCSE and A-level and so forth. Absolutely.
:22:20. > :22:24.But... Letter talk to Ukip on this, on Pisa testing how would you
:22:25. > :22:30.improve the results? When you look back on 1997 before the Welsh
:22:31. > :22:36.Assembly started, we were right up there on the Pisa rankings and where
:22:37. > :22:42.are we now? I think you are making that up. Wales wasn't assessed
:22:43. > :22:46.separately under Pisa, it was a UK assessment. Are standing in Wales
:22:47. > :22:51.was not very high. These are not the facts. But as macro focus on the
:22:52. > :22:54.future of Pisa testing, how would you approach it? I agree it is good
:22:55. > :23:01.as a benchmark to see where our standings are. Sorry, I've lost my
:23:02. > :23:07.train of thought now. Would you make it a priority for schools to teach
:23:08. > :23:14.to that method of testing? No, I wouldn't make it a priority for
:23:15. > :23:18.schools at all. Huw Lewis, let's end on this. Do you expect the Pisa
:23:19. > :23:23.results to go up? I'm very hopeful and optimistic that they will, yes.
:23:24. > :23:27.This is what he said last time! What matters here is it is not about
:23:28. > :23:31.teaching to Pisa, that would be a disastrous strategy for any
:23:32. > :23:36.government to undertake. We're not preparing our pupils for them, is
:23:37. > :23:39.that fair? You succeed in Pisa when you have excellence in teaching and
:23:40. > :23:44.learning in the classroom. It is a test of the whole education system.
:23:45. > :23:51.That is the test. On Pisa, what is Plaid Cymru's approach? We have a
:23:52. > :23:55.target to improve over ten years. Thank you for now. Let's graduate to
:23:56. > :23:56.universities, an area of equal, if not more, controversy than the
:23:57. > :24:00.schools. Tuition fees have been
:24:01. > :24:02.at the centre of the argument. Unlike Westminster,
:24:03. > :24:04.the Welsh Government awards grants for tuition of up to ?5,000
:24:05. > :24:07.whether you study inside or outside Universities across Wales
:24:08. > :24:11.feel their funding And their performance in league
:24:12. > :24:15.tables has been less We've been to Glyndwr
:24:16. > :24:35.University in Wrexham to get Funding, funding, funding. I think
:24:36. > :24:40.as far as being a student is concerned it is something that comes
:24:41. > :24:45.up all the time. In conversations at University, no matter what
:24:46. > :24:50.background you are from. Funding is always at the forefront of your mind
:24:51. > :24:54.when you want to go and study. Student tuition fees at the
:24:55. > :24:57.forefront of the debate. The tuition fee grants support going to
:24:58. > :25:01.individual students goes wherever they study, of course. That means
:25:02. > :25:05.that a large English university like the University of the West of
:25:06. > :25:12.England in Bristol is getting more money on grant support out of Wales
:25:13. > :25:16.than Glyndwr is to support infrastructure which means Welsh
:25:17. > :25:20.universities are struggling to get the resources to put together a
:25:21. > :25:25.quality higher education system and that has to change. It is really
:25:26. > :25:28.important that universities forge strong links with the communities we
:25:29. > :25:33.are in hand with businesses because our students need to get relevant
:25:34. > :25:35.work experience. We need to find good volunteering opportunities for
:25:36. > :25:42.them seven they can learn and grow. Our students make a difference
:25:43. > :25:45.globally, so if we want to make a difference to the Welsh economy,
:25:46. > :25:51.investment in universities really is crucial. The big challenge facing
:25:52. > :25:55.higher education in Wales really is resources. It's about how we put in
:25:56. > :25:59.place a really high class education system that students want, that
:26:00. > :26:00.delivers for employers, and that provides a basis for