:00:00. > :00:00.A special edition of The Wales Report tonight -
:00:00. > :00:00.from Wales to Westminster and beyond.
:00:07. > :00:08.Here in London, the Queen opened a new session
:00:09. > :00:10.of Parliament against the ever-present backdrop
:00:11. > :00:23.And I am here at the Senedd, where Carwyn Jones was elected as the new
:00:24. > :00:24.First Minister amidst some robust, some might say unparliamentary,
:00:25. > :00:25.exchanges. Good evening ? welcome
:00:26. > :00:34.to The Wales Report. It's been a busy day in Cardiff Bay
:00:35. > :00:38.and here at Westminster, where the new session of Parliament
:00:39. > :00:43.was opened by the Queen, who set out the Conservative plans
:00:44. > :00:47.for the year ahead ? including that elusive Wales Bill,
:00:48. > :00:49.defining new powers We'll have more on that
:00:50. > :00:52.in a short while. And don't forget,
:00:53. > :00:54.you can join tonight s conversation on social media -
:00:55. > :00:57.the hashtag is thewalesreport. That Wales Bill will be a prime
:00:58. > :00:59.focus for the Senedd and the First Minister,
:01:00. > :01:01.so let s join Felicity Evans in Cardiff, where things
:01:02. > :01:14.have certainly moved Yes, stalemate are resolved. Carwyn
:01:15. > :01:17.Jones was selected, as expected, as the new First Minister but it was
:01:18. > :01:22.clear from today's statements that the chamber could be a bearpit for
:01:23. > :01:28.the new administration. Despite the deal we have heard so
:01:29. > :01:31.much about, Leanne Wood was not taking a particularly consensual
:01:32. > :01:34.approach. I am not sorry about what happened last week and I will do it
:01:35. > :01:40.again, if I have to make Labour realise they are running a minority
:01:41. > :01:45.Government. What we saw last week from that party was arrogance. It
:01:46. > :01:50.was complacency and what we saw was a sense of entitlement on display.
:01:51. > :01:53.After that, Ukip's Neil Hamilton ramped up the language several
:01:54. > :01:59.notches with comments that shocked some AMs. So I am afraid that these
:02:00. > :02:08.two ladies have just made themselves political concubines in car when --
:02:09. > :02:14.Carwyn Jones' harem. And what a gruesome prospect that must be.
:02:15. > :02:19.Let's ask ourselves what reward they have obtained for this inauspicious
:02:20. > :02:22.position. After a challenging first day in the Chair last week, it is
:02:23. > :02:27.clear the new presiding Officer Ellen Jones has the work -- her work
:02:28. > :02:32.cut out for her. So after the exchange of the chamber, how are
:02:33. > :02:37.Plaid and Labour likely to get on in this Assembly? Leanne Wood joins me
:02:38. > :02:42.now. Today, you and Kirsty Williams were referred to by Neil Hamilton,
:02:43. > :02:47.the Ukip leader, as concubines in Carwyn Jones' harem. What you make
:02:48. > :02:54.of that sort of language being used in the chamber? There were a number
:02:55. > :03:00.of sexist exchanges this afternoon, I think I counted four references to
:03:01. > :03:03.sexual references. We are not used to that kind of debate here in the
:03:04. > :03:06.National Assembly so I guess having Ukip is going to take a bit of
:03:07. > :03:12.getting used to, but I don't think we should be that surprised, given
:03:13. > :03:15.whether politics come from. Should the presiding officer have stepped
:03:16. > :03:19.in it? Do you regard it as unparliamentary language? I would
:03:20. > :03:22.like to look at the record and consider what was said and I am
:03:23. > :03:28.certainly planning to speak to the new presiding officer because whilst
:03:29. > :03:32.we saw some sex which language today -- sexist language today, what next?
:03:33. > :03:37.Racist language, homophobic language which where is the line going to be
:03:38. > :03:42.drawn? Some pretty robust language within the normal sphere of
:03:43. > :03:45.political dialogue from you today, calling Labour bullies, arrogant,
:03:46. > :03:48.complacent. Was that a smoke screen to disguise the fact that you don't
:03:49. > :03:54.have a very big prize to show for this week's delay in confirming
:03:55. > :03:57.Carwyn Jones is First Minister? This time last week, the First Minister
:03:58. > :04:03.could have been elected and opposed unemployed come route could have won
:04:04. > :04:13.nothing -- and Plaid Cymru would have won nothing, but five out of
:04:14. > :04:16.our key pledges, nine key pledges, I would say in one vote in one
:04:17. > :04:22.afternoon here, five Camry has managed to win more for the Welsh
:04:23. > :04:27.people than the Conservatives managed to win an entire term last
:04:28. > :04:30.time. With respect, you have agreed to agree on the think you had pretty
:04:31. > :04:36.much agreed on. That is not a great victory. That is not true, there was
:04:37. > :04:41.a lot of debate in the last election about the new drugs and treatments
:04:42. > :04:46.are. You both wanted one, they were in both manifestos, more GPs, more
:04:47. > :04:53.apprenticeships in the manifestos. Can I pin you down on the new drugs
:04:54. > :04:57.and treatment fund? Labour's proposal was not to end the postcode
:04:58. > :05:04.lottery, to continue with the exception allergy causes, whereby
:05:05. > :05:07.people would lose out on a new drug or treatment if someone in the
:05:08. > :05:11.vicinity have had that already. What has been agreed today is to end the
:05:12. > :05:18.postcode lottery and that is something the campaigners were
:05:19. > :05:20.calling for. We have also managed to get our national infrastructure
:05:21. > :05:24.commission in their hand that provides a vehicle for some of our
:05:25. > :05:31.other key priority is not, like the Bangor medical school. -- other key
:05:32. > :05:35.priorities. You also talked about the M4, what you described is unfair
:05:36. > :05:42.voting, the schools register, you listed the things you failed to
:05:43. > :05:46.achieve. The new minority Government will need another party to work with
:05:47. > :05:49.them to get the rest of their programme through every budget. They
:05:50. > :05:53.can either deal with the Ukip and the Tories, and after the smears
:05:54. > :05:57.that came out toward Plaid last week for just voting with those two
:05:58. > :06:02.parties, I would find it very difficult to see how the First
:06:03. > :06:06.Minister could go to those two. So why not hold out for one of the big
:06:07. > :06:13.prizes, for one of the things you said today you hadn't managed to get
:06:14. > :06:18.out of Labour? That the say about the M4, we prefer the blue route...
:06:19. > :06:23.But you haven't got it, after this week. I can tell you now, we will
:06:24. > :06:27.not agree a budget with Labour if there is any money allocated to the
:06:28. > :06:33.Blackwood of the M4. We have got power beyond today. What we did
:06:34. > :06:36.today was one of the vote to allow Labour's nomination for First
:06:37. > :06:40.Minister to go through. Our hands are not tied in any other way but we
:06:41. > :06:46.have managed to win some serious concessions. These concessions have
:06:47. > :06:49.been won for people, it is not about ministerial cars and salaries for
:06:50. > :06:53.politicians, they are games for the people of Wales. We will talk about
:06:54. > :06:56.how the mechanisms will work in a second but can I make sure I
:06:57. > :07:01.understand what you are saying about the conditionality of your support
:07:02. > :07:07.for the future budget for some are you saying unless the Labour party
:07:08. > :07:13.above the black route and go for the blue Ridge, they will not get Plaid
:07:14. > :07:16.Cymru support for the budget? I have said that all along, Plaid Cymru
:07:17. > :07:21.will not support any budget that has provision for the black route. We
:07:22. > :07:24.think it is expenditure, it is not acceptable and is confined to one
:07:25. > :07:27.part of Wales when the infrastructure investment is
:07:28. > :07:32.required throughout the country. So that is the totemic issue for you
:07:33. > :07:38.heading to the budget, the M4? We have plenty of totemic issues, a la
:07:39. > :07:44.manifesto includes 180 policies. Year you are not holding out for
:07:45. > :07:48.them all to approve the budget? We will have priorities and the M4 is
:07:49. > :07:54.just one contentious issue, we will have others. But you have raised
:07:55. > :07:57.this as the next hostage, really, haven't you? For this next minority
:07:58. > :08:03.Government, the passing of the budget. We stood for election on a
:08:04. > :08:07.manifesto of transport and change... What other key issues ahead of the
:08:08. > :08:12.budget? You will have to wait and see for the budget negotiations for
:08:13. > :08:16.that but we can see our priorities and what we oppose from this
:08:17. > :08:21.Government and we don't intended to change our position. So explain the
:08:22. > :08:28.election issue, there are representatives of Plaid Cymru,
:08:29. > :08:32.civil servants, but no agreement has to be reached. What is the point?
:08:33. > :08:37.The point is that Plaid Cymru will have an early opportunity to input
:08:38. > :08:41.into the Welsh Government's programme of legislation and budget
:08:42. > :08:45.if we so choose. And they can decide to disregard you under this
:08:46. > :08:49.agreement? If they decide to disregard what it is we want, they
:08:50. > :08:55.have to deal with another party to get their budget. So why do you need
:08:56. > :08:59.a liaison committee? When we have entered into budget negotiations in
:09:00. > :09:03.the past, the process is quite late in the day, the decisions that are
:09:04. > :09:11.made tend to be around ticket price items, without looking at the budget
:09:12. > :09:14.across all departments. This will give us the opportunity to look at
:09:15. > :09:19.the budget as a whole and we will be in a position to decide whether or
:09:20. > :09:25.not we want to allow Labour to... The liaison committee sounds like a
:09:26. > :09:28.fig leaf. What is the purpose? You don't have to agree anything, you
:09:29. > :09:33.could withhold support without a liaison committee, why have it? You
:09:34. > :09:38.are right. This is something that allows Plaid Cymru to get closer to
:09:39. > :09:43.the process, if that is what we want to do. I am determined to use the
:09:44. > :09:48.budgetary process and any other vehicle we can, including liaison
:09:49. > :09:51.committees, to get as many Plaid Cymru proposals through as possible.
:09:52. > :09:54.We promised to be the change Wales needs at the last election and if we
:09:55. > :09:59.get our programme through, Wales will see big changes as a part of
:10:00. > :10:04.Plaid Cymru's actions. Leanne Wood, thank you for joining
:10:05. > :10:07.us. This fifth Assembly isn't just different because of the presence of
:10:08. > :10:13.Ukip and the change in arithmetic, there is a substantial intake of new
:10:14. > :10:18.a.m. S. Jeremy Menez is the new a.m. For Neath, welcome to the programme
:10:19. > :10:23.and congratulations on your election. Today in the chamber, a
:10:24. > :10:28.couple of female a.m. S were referred to as concubines. What did
:10:29. > :10:30.you think of that language? I thought it was shocking and horrible
:10:31. > :10:35.for all the females in the chamber but also horrible for anybody who
:10:36. > :10:39.thinks that of its cares about the language in public office in Wales
:10:40. > :10:44.and I hope we don't hear any more of it. Some pretty robust language all
:10:45. > :10:47.round. Leanne Wood accusing your party of smearing, of bullying, of
:10:48. > :10:54.arrogance and complacency, this after week in you failed to get the
:10:55. > :10:58.First Minister selected. It has been a pretty humbling start, hasn't it,
:10:59. > :11:03.for your party? I think it has been clear from the start that although
:11:04. > :11:08.we were the largest party, with 29 seats and in that sense, we have the
:11:09. > :11:11.first opportunity to form a Government, obviously because we
:11:12. > :11:16.don't have a majority, we can only govern in consultation with the
:11:17. > :11:20.other parties. That has been clear from the start, in fact, and
:11:21. > :11:25.actually, what I was pleased about today is that we have got to a point
:11:26. > :11:31.where the Assembly has nominated Carwyn Jones as the First Minister.
:11:32. > :11:35.We have had a period of obviously intensive discussions between the
:11:36. > :11:39.Labour Party and Plaid Cymru and during those discussions, a number
:11:40. > :11:42.of areas of common ground have been identified and that is obviously
:11:43. > :11:48.very positive going forward. It will have to go on like that. You heard
:11:49. > :11:54.Leanne Wood say today that she was expecting concessions from Labour at
:11:55. > :11:58.every turn and the next hurdle would be the budget and that is the
:11:59. > :12:02.position your party is in as a minority Government, isn't it? What
:12:03. > :12:05.has been agreed as part of the deal between the two parties is the
:12:06. > :12:09.establishment of three liaison committees between the Government
:12:10. > :12:12.and Plaid Cymru as the principal opposition party, which will be
:12:13. > :12:16.staffed by civil servants and I think the objective of those must be
:12:17. > :12:20.to ensure those points of friction, if you like, are kept to a minimum,
:12:21. > :12:25.by having a dialogue around key pieces of legislation. It remains to
:12:26. > :12:31.be seen how that is going to work when you are a minority and you have
:12:32. > :12:34.a new, muscular opposition, effectively saying you want us to
:12:35. > :12:38.support your budget, you have to back down on the black route for the
:12:39. > :12:43.new M4, for example. You think there will be an appetite for that within
:12:44. > :12:47.the Labour group? It is to be seen how it plays out in the future, but
:12:48. > :12:52.I think what the agreement, for my money at least, has established as a
:12:53. > :12:55.basis on which it benefits all parties to have greater transparency
:12:56. > :12:59.and scrutiny of legislative powers and so I think that will be a
:13:00. > :13:03.benefit. You are just going to get kicked around, aren't you? We have
:13:04. > :13:07.seen that this week, and it is going to continue. I don't think that'll
:13:08. > :13:12.happen. We have an agreement where we are happy that the manifesto
:13:13. > :13:16.priorities we set out, read childcare, infrastructure, GPs and
:13:17. > :13:21.so on, all those things are things that have been identified in the as
:13:22. > :13:24.areas of priority. They are the low hanging fruit, the think you have
:13:25. > :13:28.common ground on. Coming up to the budget of the things you won't have
:13:29. > :13:31.common ground on, the really difficult things Angie will have to
:13:32. > :13:38.give some major concessions. The point of having a finance liaison
:13:39. > :13:42.committee for example is to make the process as soon smooth as possible
:13:43. > :13:46.and there has been a recognition from the start that as a Government
:13:47. > :13:50.with 29 seats, it doesn't give us a majority to govern and as we did in
:13:51. > :13:54.the last Assembly, successfully, Carwyn Jones and the Cabinet were
:13:55. > :13:56.able to negotiate with other parties to ensure we got programmes through.
:13:57. > :14:06.That happened very successfully. It was a much easier environment.
:14:07. > :14:15.For a minority Labour Government to navigate. Clearly from the first
:14:16. > :14:19.week it is clear this won won't be. The mathematics were different, but
:14:20. > :14:23.you heard Carwyn make it clear today that although we have 29 seats, we
:14:24. > :14:25.understand that we need to govern in discussion with other parties. Thank
:14:26. > :14:29.you very much. That was Felicity Evans with
:14:30. > :14:31.the latest from the Senedd there. So here at Westminster today,
:14:32. > :14:34.the Queen has been listing the Government's legislative
:14:35. > :14:36.programme for the coming term. Among the things discussed
:14:37. > :14:38.were prison reform, that is one of the main headlines,
:14:39. > :14:40.a list of some 21 measures in the Queen's Speech,
:14:41. > :14:43.and a mention too of that So with that in mind,
:14:44. > :14:47.I'm going to introduce the Wales Office Minister,
:14:48. > :14:50.the Conservative MP Guto Bebb. Well, I think the bill is almost
:14:51. > :14:58.ready to be introduced in Parliament but obviously I think
:14:59. > :15:01.there is a respect agenda between Westminster and Cardiff,
:15:02. > :15:02.and therefore it's imperative that we see the nature and the form
:15:03. > :15:06.of the Government in Cardiff before But I would be very confident over
:15:07. > :15:10.the bill being introduced Well, that's good, that
:15:11. > :15:14.gives us a good sense. And how confident are you that some
:15:15. > :15:17.of the very big concerns raised by Carwyn Jones and others
:15:18. > :15:20.in Cardiff will have been addressed Well, I think there has been a very
:15:21. > :15:24.long listening process, It didn't meet with universal
:15:25. > :15:30.acclaim, it is fair to say, but we did produce the bill in order
:15:31. > :15:33.to allow pre-legislative scrutiny, which happened,
:15:34. > :15:37.the Welsh Select Committee reported, various stakeholders in Wales
:15:38. > :15:39.indicated what they were happy with and what they
:15:40. > :15:44.were unhappy with. So I think a lot of the concerns
:15:45. > :15:47.which have been raised will be addressed, but they do need to be
:15:48. > :15:50.addressed on a cross-governmental basis, we need to have
:15:51. > :15:52.buy-in to the Wales Bill from the Welsh Government
:15:53. > :15:55.and therefore any delay that we now have is basically waiting
:15:56. > :15:57.for the new Welsh Government to indicate whether they are happy
:15:58. > :16:00.with the concessions and the changes But just to underline,
:16:01. > :16:03.that talk of the necessity test, There are some reservations
:16:04. > :16:08.which have been maintained but that is in relation to,
:16:09. > :16:11.for example, no change in the legislation in relation
:16:12. > :16:13.to what constitutes a murder in the United Kingdom,
:16:14. > :16:15.which most people would understand, Reflecting on the process itself
:16:16. > :16:20.and where you've got to today, are there things that should have
:16:21. > :16:24.been done differently? Because lots of people are saying
:16:25. > :16:27.that initial first offering that you brought up was clearly not
:16:28. > :16:29.acceptable and clearly Well, I find that criticism very odd
:16:30. > :16:34.because I would argue that the Wales Office did exactly
:16:35. > :16:36.what we should be doing in Parliament, which is to bring
:16:37. > :16:39.forward a proposal for discussion, Indeed, in addition to being
:16:40. > :16:44.a Wales Office minister, I've spent about a third of my time
:16:45. > :16:47.in the whip's office and many in the whip's office would argue
:16:48. > :16:51.that we need to do more of bringing forward proposed legislation,
:16:52. > :16:53.so there is an opportunity for Parliament and the wider
:16:54. > :16:59.population to just offer their views as to whether the legislation
:17:00. > :17:01.is making sense or not. So I know there have been
:17:02. > :17:04.criticisms of the legislation as proposed last autumn,
:17:05. > :17:06.but I would argue that the opportunity to comment on that
:17:07. > :17:10.legislation was a strength and the fact that the Wales Office
:17:11. > :17:13.paused and was quite happy to go back to the drawing board to make
:17:14. > :17:16.sure we reflected some of the concerns raised,
:17:17. > :17:18.that should be a positive, Well, that's a positive, Minister,
:17:19. > :17:22.but you know as well as I do that there was some surprise
:17:23. > :17:24.in the Wales Office that the opposition to that bill
:17:25. > :17:28.was as acute as it was. I think when you develop
:17:29. > :17:30.your own legislation, obviously there is a degree
:17:31. > :17:33.of ownership and no one likes to see their own work
:17:34. > :17:35.criticised in any way, But I think the previous Secretary
:17:36. > :17:39.of State was very open that the criticism in relation
:17:40. > :17:41.to the necessity test, for example, And rather than carry on with a bill
:17:42. > :17:46.that was getting no support from the Assembly, for example,
:17:47. > :17:49.I think the decision to pause was reflective of the feedback
:17:50. > :17:52.received and I think it shows a mature view of how we work
:17:53. > :17:55.through the issues and the challenges that
:17:56. > :18:01.devolution brings us. The quick point I wanted to raise
:18:02. > :18:04.from today's Queen's Speech, because there is a very significant
:18:05. > :18:07.element of prison reform and in North Wales, of course,
:18:08. > :18:10.in Wrexham, one of the most modern prisons in the world
:18:11. > :18:12.is about to be opened. Why isn't Wrexham then on the list
:18:13. > :18:15.of the six prisons that are going to get this new experiment,
:18:16. > :18:18.giving governors much more autonomy? Well, I think the reason
:18:19. > :18:20.for that is that Wrexham is already building up on best practice already
:18:21. > :18:23.within the prison sector. I think everybody acknowledges
:18:24. > :18:26.that there is a need to look again at the way in which we are reforming
:18:27. > :18:29.and helping people to reform The broader context
:18:30. > :18:48.of the Queen's Speech, I don't think anyone will deny
:18:49. > :18:51.that we have a big European context, This week, we have had
:18:52. > :18:55.Lord Heseltine making a very, very strong attack on Boris Johnson,
:18:56. > :18:57.just again underlining the depth of the divisions
:18:58. > :19:00.in your party as you approach it. You have got five
:19:01. > :19:02.weeks of this to come. How concerned are you that the party
:19:03. > :19:04.is actually tearing Well, I think tearing ourselves
:19:05. > :19:08.apart might be slightly overstating it, but it is undoubtedly
:19:09. > :19:10.an uncomfortable period The Conservative Party
:19:11. > :19:13.is neutral on this issue, I'm bound to wonder as well,
:19:14. > :19:23.Minister, you know, how possible When you look at the kind
:19:24. > :19:27.of antipathy that is evident now in this debate, how much
:19:28. > :19:30.of a problem is it going to be for people to come together
:19:31. > :19:32.after this campaign? Well, I think first of all,
:19:33. > :19:35.all colleagues need to reflect upon their use of language,
:19:36. > :19:38.because I think that is unfortunate. We do need to make sure that we show
:19:39. > :19:41.respect to each other's arguments. There are people on both sides
:19:42. > :19:44.of this argument who are very strong in their views but they are doing it
:19:45. > :19:47.with a degree of respect towards each other,
:19:48. > :19:50.and we will have a huge job in putting the party back together
:19:51. > :19:52.after this referendum. But I don't think that's beyond any
:19:53. > :19:55.of the realms of possibility. I think we have a very strong view
:19:56. > :19:58.that the Conservative Party has a further four years
:19:59. > :20:00.in Government and when this referendum is done and dusted,
:20:01. > :20:03.it is imperative that we move on, as this Queen's Speech has shown,
:20:04. > :20:05.quite clearly, with a positive So I would say to everybody,
:20:06. > :20:09.you know, calm down We have our views but
:20:10. > :20:12.they should be expressed Minister, we will talk again,
:20:13. > :20:16.I hope, during the campaign. So after all the events
:20:17. > :20:20.of the past few weeks, we now have a new government
:20:21. > :20:22.in Cardiff Bay, a first minister elected and
:20:23. > :20:24.the political focus is fully engaged on the EU referendum
:20:25. > :20:26.in five weeks time. Here on the Wales Report,
:20:27. > :20:28.we ll spend the next few weeks looking at some
:20:29. > :20:31.of the main factors ? with a series of special
:20:32. > :20:33.reports and interviews. And tonight we ll start
:20:34. > :20:36.with agriculture, because the farming industry is not only
:20:37. > :20:39.important to Wales it s also been heavily dependent
:20:40. > :20:42.on EU subsidies under the Common Agricultural
:20:43. > :20:45.Policy or CAP, which eats up an enormous 39%
:20:46. > :20:47.of the current EU budget. Felicity Evans has been to meet
:20:48. > :20:59.two farmers on opposing This year's lambing season was as
:21:00. > :21:07.ever a busy time for Welsh hill farmers. Brian has been farming for
:21:08. > :21:12.most of his life and he has received EU subsidies for most of the the
:21:13. > :21:18.time. Sheep and cattle are the most common type of farming in Wales and
:21:19. > :21:24.most get that support. Many worry if Britain leaves the EU that support
:21:25. > :21:29.would be lost. But leave campaigners say the UK Government would replace
:21:30. > :21:33.the subsidies. But the uncertainty worries Brian. He said it would be
:21:34. > :21:37.hard to stay in business without them. Not unless the price of the
:21:38. > :21:44.products we are selling would have to double to be able to sort of
:21:45. > :21:51.factor in the cost of producing it. I mean we are told that if we are
:21:52. > :21:56.exit that we will have a support. But what? Nobody's telling us what.
:21:57. > :22:02.There is money set aside for it, but what? We don't know. But some
:22:03. > :22:07.sectors of the industry don't receive any subsidies, poultry and
:22:08. > :22:12.pig farming for example. There are not many pig farmers in Wales, but
:22:13. > :22:18.Ken is one. He thinks British farmers would be better offoutside
:22:19. > :22:25.the EU and those who receive subsidy would learn to survive without it.
:22:26. > :22:30.Like he has to. As a pig producer we get no support, not that we are
:22:31. > :22:35.looking for support. What about your colleagues who say you may not get
:22:36. > :22:42.subsidies, but we do and they are important and they come from the EU.
:22:43. > :22:47.If nay lose their subsidies they will re-evaluate and a year or 18
:22:48. > :22:51.months they then will move forward. Wales two farming unions have in
:22:52. > :22:56.favour of Britain remaining in the EU. That is not just about
:22:57. > :23:00.subsidies, but the single market, the core principle of the freedom of
:23:01. > :23:04.movement of goods and services, this is the idea that Welsh producers
:23:05. > :23:09.have unfetterred access to consumers on the continent. But some say the
:23:10. > :23:19.single market is far from a level playing field. We are breeding
:23:20. > :23:26.ourselves and we keep them in straw that is comfortable and keep it as
:23:27. > :23:33.natural as can. Ken has concern about welfare standards in other EU
:23:34. > :23:40.states. Not only do standards here be higher, but he thinks the EU
:23:41. > :23:45.standards are not enforced, making it harder for him to compete with
:23:46. > :23:49.European farmers. So Ken wants out of single market so that the UK
:23:50. > :23:55.government can have more control over the sort of pork products being
:23:56. > :23:59.import. The standards in Europe basically is that mainly they
:24:00. > :24:04.packing as much as they can into a unit. So that the growing pigs have
:24:05. > :24:10.less movement. They don't have straw. So they're on concrete. It is
:24:11. > :24:16.bad for their joints and it is not comfortable. It is like us sleeping
:24:17. > :24:21.on a concrete floor. So obviously, with, they do that just to keep
:24:22. > :24:26.labour costs down and pipe food in and I think that there should be
:24:27. > :24:35.more regulation to come in. More control. And specially the welfare
:24:36. > :24:39.standard. Ken doesn't export any of his pork. He competes for British
:24:40. > :24:45.customers. But his business is different. He exports his lamb to
:24:46. > :24:51.the EU. He says the single market is vital. Some who support a British
:24:52. > :24:55.exit argue we could leave the EU and still negotiate continued access to
:24:56. > :25:03.the single market. But Brian doesn't like the uncertainty. Well the key
:25:04. > :25:11.reasons is we have got 500 million consumers of our produce in Europe
:25:12. > :25:17.and 80 to 90% of lamb I'm producing go to Europe, the market place. It
:25:18. > :25:23.is on your doorstep. It is something that I feel is critical in
:25:24. > :25:29.agriculture in Wales. If there was facts and guarantees on the table
:25:30. > :25:35.signed deals to say our market is still there, and we know what we are
:25:36. > :25:39.doing, where we are going, maybe I would consider a few different
:25:40. > :25:48.avenues. But none of that is in place. And I think it is ludicrous
:25:49. > :25:53.to exit the EU when we don't know what we will have. For Brian the
:25:54. > :25:58.single market means an open door to 27 other countries. But for Ken, it
:25:59. > :26:04.means competition from those other countries here at home. For farmers,
:26:05. > :26:06.what they're selling and where they're selling it may well dictate
:26:07. > :26:10.their views on EU membership. I'm joined now by the Conservative
:26:11. > :26:27.MP David Davies on behalf of Vote David, was that a fair summary of
:26:28. > :26:31.the debate about the EU in the context of farming in Wales?
:26:32. > :26:36.Couldn't give ten out of ten to that one. It is all well to concentrate
:26:37. > :26:41.on subsidies, but there are a lot of sheep and lamb and cattle farmers
:26:42. > :26:46.who want to come out of the EU. And everyone's confident that even if we
:26:47. > :26:50.come out, some form of subsidy will continue at the same level as it is
:26:51. > :26:54.now, because we would have more money and could double the subsidies
:26:55. > :26:59.if we came out. Other nobody is suggesting that. The Prime Minister
:27:00. > :27:07.said he would guarantee the subsidies. You could have spoken to
:27:08. > :27:15.a sheep or cattle farmer and I put you in touch with plenty. The point
:27:16. > :27:20.it is not one thing, subs idies have been a focal point of the debate for
:27:21. > :27:25.many years. What did you think of the cases there? What was
:27:26. > :27:31.interesting was what Brian said about the uncertainty. I must take
:27:32. > :27:34.issue that you say there would be certainty that the subsidy would
:27:35. > :27:38.continue. That is where the leap into the dark is occurring. There is
:27:39. > :27:42.no guarantee whatsoever that these subsidies would continue and we are
:27:43. > :27:47.looking at a situation and both of the farming unions in Wales are
:27:48. > :27:53.saying this, you look back over the last 20 years, 40 years, we have got
:27:54. > :27:56.Governments have been in favour of reducing the Common Agricultural
:27:57. > :28:02.Policy budget. Would they continue subs dips at the same level and also
:28:03. > :28:08.at liberalising food imports. This faith here if the farming industry
:28:09. > :28:12.were to find itself in a situation where Britain leaves Europe, there
:28:13. > :28:21.is real uncertainty as to whether they would be support and 80% of
:28:22. > :28:28.farmers in Wales, the majority are sheep and cattle farmers and are
:28:29. > :28:35.dependent on the CAP. The figures are interesting in 2015 UK farmers
:28:36. > :28:45.received over euro 3 billion in direct support, in Wales I have a
:28:46. > :28:50.figure for the single payment scheme in 2013 ?250 million. Those are big
:28:51. > :28:54.sums and in a context where we have a Government with big financial
:28:55. > :29:00.challenges, surely no one is in position to give guarantees that
:29:01. > :29:05.subsidies would continue. No one can guarantee they can continue when the
:29:06. > :29:10.next round of CAP comes around. But they have existed for decades. They
:29:11. > :29:14.existed for decades before we came into the EU, since the Second World
:29:15. > :29:18.War there have been subsidies. Perhaps we should be talking to
:29:19. > :29:22.other sheep and cattle farmers who have different opinions on this. But
:29:23. > :29:29.the other important was about the free market. Actually it is not a
:29:30. > :29:34.case of some Brexit people suggest we would get a free trade agreement.
:29:35. > :29:38.Everyone is certain we would, because it is more in the interests
:29:39. > :29:42.of the EU to have that agreement than for us to have it with them.
:29:43. > :29:46.The problem is the uncertainty isn't there. It is not a case of people
:29:47. > :29:50.saying, other certain that would be the case, when people who would be
:29:51. > :29:56.in a position to offer the deal are saying, oh, hang on, you know, there
:29:57. > :30:00.could be consequences. Are the French Government to say to French
:30:01. > :30:06.wine makers and say you're out of work and can't export to the UK or
:30:07. > :30:12.the Danish say that to pig producers and others say that to their beef
:30:13. > :30:17.producers. We are spending three times as much on food imports from
:30:18. > :30:22.the EU as we export. The funny thing is it would be in interests of
:30:23. > :30:30.farmers if there was no agreement. On the point of exports, 90% of beef
:30:31. > :30:39.and lamb export from Wales goes to EU. The NFU has been looking at the
:30:40. > :30:45.nature of trade agreements and Breck sit have been talking about the free
:30:46. > :30:52.trade agreement. There is only effective when they have that 100%
:30:53. > :30:57.payment. When that is reduced, they lose between 8,000 and 20,000 pounds
:30:58. > :31:03.a year. That is not necessarily as good as it seems unless we have the
:31:04. > :31:07.subsidies in place. The concept about uncertainty, because there
:31:08. > :31:13.will be farmers watching and I thought the point made about having
:31:14. > :31:18.facts and certainty is something we will hear more about, hopefully we
:31:19. > :31:23.as media and journalists can provide some facts. The uncertainty, what
:31:24. > :31:28.you're asking is for some farmers to take a leap in the dark and take a
:31:29. > :31:35.step towards an uncertain future. What would you say? No, it is pure
:31:36. > :31:40.common-sense that it is in the interest of everyone to have a free
:31:41. > :31:44.trade agreement. We don't need a free trade agreement to trade. We
:31:45. > :31:51.are doing more trade with America, but we don't have a free trade
:31:52. > :31:54.agreement. It is a conceit to suggest that politicians, the MPs
:31:55. > :31:57.are responsible for all the trade between countries. We are not
:31:58. > :32:01.responsible. People get together and buy and sell things all the time. We
:32:02. > :32:04.sometimes make it easier. But we should have a free trade agreement
:32:05. > :32:12.with Europe. Everyone agrees that and it that it would be possible,
:32:13. > :32:16.including people like Lord Kerr, the former UK ambassador to the EU. They
:32:17. > :32:21.say it is straight forward to do that. The problem is you were part
:32:22. > :32:26.of what they call project fear, you are simply there to say it is going
:32:27. > :32:29.to be terribly dangerous and uncertain you shouldn't consider
:32:30. > :32:34.this step. It is all to do with trying to give people cause for
:32:35. > :32:38.concern. The reality is there is uncertainty and that it will be a
:32:39. > :32:41.political decision that would resolve whatever situation we arrive
:32:42. > :32:46.in, following the referendum. You have got to look then, make a
:32:47. > :32:52.serious disigs and think -- decision and think is there a political
:32:53. > :32:58.decision in terms of agriculture that result in farmers increase Ogg
:32:59. > :33:01.decreasing their income. We will see that replaced by this Government,
:33:02. > :33:07.the Tory Government, I don't believe that? David Cameron has made it
:33:08. > :33:11.clear we would be and the real uncertainty is what will happen if
:33:12. > :33:15.we continue in the EU and no guarantee of subsidies and that we
:33:16. > :33:18.will increase trade, our trade with the EU is diminishing. We will be
:33:19. > :33:29.back I guarantee that. Of course course We'll of course be coming
:33:30. > :33:31.back to the forthcoming EU referendum over
:33:32. > :33:33.the coming weeks with a series of special reports
:33:34. > :33:35.and interviews and there will be a special debate
:33:36. > :33:38.in the week before the vote. If you'd like to get in touch
:33:39. > :33:41.with us about that or anything else, email us
:33:42. > :33:42.at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk, or follow us on social media ?
:33:43. > :33:44.we re @TheWalesReport. We'll be back next week,
:33:45. > :33:47.thanks for watching.