:00:00. > :00:07.As Welsh steelworkers wait for news from both Tata
:00:08. > :00:08.and the UK government, we ask, where next
:00:09. > :00:22.With less than a month to go until the referendum on the the UK's
:00:23. > :00:25.How much of a factor is immigration playing in the debate?
:00:26. > :00:29.When it comes to using numbers in political campaigning,
:00:30. > :00:40.Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.
:00:41. > :00:43.Remember, you can join tonight's conversation on social media.
:00:44. > :00:49.We start tonight with the latest on the steel industry in Wales.
:00:50. > :00:52.After a meeting last week in Mumbai, Tata's continuing the process
:00:53. > :00:56.of selling its UK operations, including Port Talbot.
:00:57. > :00:58.The UK government's put forward proposals to change the pension
:00:59. > :01:07.system in order to allow the company to fill the deficit in its scheme.
:01:08. > :01:15.Here's our business correspondent, Brian Meechan.
:01:16. > :01:22.The uncertainty continues over what is next for the loss-making Port
:01:23. > :01:29.Talbot site and others around the country. The future of Tata's plans
:01:30. > :01:34.including here at Port Talbot is being decided that is as ours away
:01:35. > :01:38.behind closed doors in Greybull Capital. Negotiations are ongoing
:01:39. > :01:43.between the company, UK and Welsh men's and the bidders trying to
:01:44. > :01:46.overtake these operations. The outcome will have a huge operation
:01:47. > :01:51.on the workers here and their families and the entire community
:01:52. > :01:58.surrounding it. This local bar is backing Tata workers with especially
:01:59. > :02:02.broad ale. As part of the UK's government efforts to protect the
:02:03. > :02:07.industry, it is proposing changes to the pension system to allow the
:02:08. > :02:11.company to reduce its deficit which is currently ?500 million. The UK
:02:12. > :02:17.government's plans would see the huge Tata pension scheme from ?15
:02:18. > :02:22.billion, the ?12.5 billion. Either way, no company that buys it will be
:02:23. > :02:27.likely to take over that liability. That means it is essentially a
:02:28. > :02:31.negotiation between the government and Tata about how to resolve the
:02:32. > :02:35.pension deficit and at the moment, it is the workers and pensioners in
:02:36. > :02:41.that scheme who have to pick up the bill. We knew they were always going
:02:42. > :02:46.to come back for pensioners, either Tata or any potential new owners,
:02:47. > :02:50.they would always attack pensions again. Pensions experts have
:02:51. > :02:55.estimated with limited information available, the people who have
:02:56. > :02:58.already retired will lose an average around 25% of their pension whether
:02:59. > :03:04.they go into the new government scheme or the pension protection
:03:05. > :03:11.fund. It is bullying tactics. It is a question of, if you do not play by
:03:12. > :03:15.my rules, I am taking it away. I think it is absolutely disgraceful
:03:16. > :03:22.that they should look at the pensions and penalised retired
:03:23. > :03:27.steelworkers. The UK government has said that this plan they are putting
:03:28. > :03:33.forward for pensions will only be felt Tata and will not have a wide
:03:34. > :03:37.impact the pension schemes and other people paying into pension schemes.
:03:38. > :03:42.Do you believe that? I do not believe that for one instance. That
:03:43. > :03:47.is the first stage of the government meddling in other private pension
:03:48. > :03:53.schemes. How can they justify letting Tata get away get away with
:03:54. > :03:56.taking money out of our pension pots when at the current time they are
:03:57. > :04:01.telling everybody to take pensions out? It just does not make any sense
:04:02. > :04:05.to me. Rumours have been going around about Tata and whether it is
:04:06. > :04:09.going to rethink and reconsider its decision to sell. What do people
:04:10. > :04:16.think about that, about Tata staying? I feel bitter about it, to
:04:17. > :04:22.be honest. I am lucky, I still have a job. But I know a lot of men and
:04:23. > :04:25.women that have not got jobs any more, they have been cast out of the
:04:26. > :04:32.business, surplus to requirements. And I feel bitter for them. And
:04:33. > :04:38.also, for those left behind. We have gone through the mill as well. With
:04:39. > :04:41.all this, things that have been happening. Politicians have been
:04:42. > :04:45.supportive of the proposed changes to the pension scheme. I trust the
:04:46. > :04:52.view of the trustees on this, but it looks like they have got quite an
:04:53. > :04:56.innovative solution. They will reindex from the Retail Price Index
:04:57. > :05:00.to the Consumer Price Index, which helps to pay down the liabilities.
:05:01. > :05:04.And it secures a sustainable future for the fund. It seems Tata and
:05:05. > :05:09.politicians have some convincing to do if these workers are anything to
:05:10. > :05:11.go by. Pension rights have been hard gained and many will want to ensure
:05:12. > :05:13.they are not easily lost. I'm joined now by the First
:05:14. > :05:23.Minister, Carwyn Jones, who was That was for the Tata board meeting.
:05:24. > :05:29.Welcome. What is your reaction to the suggestion about reindexing the
:05:30. > :05:33.Tata pension scheme? Do you support that idea? I would not be supportive
:05:34. > :05:37.of scene cuts the benefits to those retired or paying in at the moment.
:05:38. > :05:43.That needs to be examined carefully and you can see from the reaction of
:05:44. > :05:47.the three men in the film that it is a natural reaction, people saying,
:05:48. > :05:51.why should we have our benefits cut? I would not be supportive of it
:05:52. > :05:55.going into the government's tech show and fund which was designed to
:05:56. > :06:00.deal with those companies going bust. That is not the case for Tata.
:06:01. > :06:03.It is for the trustees to work through a solution to this to make
:06:04. > :06:07.sure we do not see a cut in benefits. We do know that no buyer
:06:08. > :06:11.will come forward if the pension scheme is there and they have to
:06:12. > :06:14.take it over so it does need government intervention that we have
:06:15. > :06:18.to make sure it does not penalised pensioners and those already in the
:06:19. > :06:24.scheme. Is there a third option is available or have you been waiting
:06:25. > :06:27.for other proposals to be made by the trustees? When British Coal was
:06:28. > :06:31.privatised, the deal was done with the British Coal pension scheme so
:06:32. > :06:34.it would be more attractive for privatisation. The government made a
:06:35. > :06:38.deal and that scheme is doing well and the UK government is doing
:06:39. > :06:43.better at that scheme that it should be. So that our presidents and it
:06:44. > :06:47.just needs to have innovative thinking. Concern about the current
:06:48. > :06:51.proposal is it, the slippery slope and could apply to firms other than
:06:52. > :06:55.Tata if they get into pension deficit. And the other is a
:06:56. > :07:00.financial analyses we had analysing the figures suggests there is not
:07:01. > :07:05.much to Prince in terms of how workers come out of it between the
:07:06. > :07:09.reindexing and the pension funds -- much difference. If the fund went
:07:10. > :07:13.into the pension protection fund, a queue of businesses would say, we
:07:14. > :07:17.will have the same, thank you very much, you have done it for Tata.
:07:18. > :07:21.They have to look at Tata separately but there are different ways of
:07:22. > :07:24.analysing what is proposed but it is for the trustees to decide how best
:07:25. > :07:29.to take the pension scheme forward to protect those who are part of the
:07:30. > :07:33.scheme. How urgent is it they come up with a third plan on the
:07:34. > :07:37.pensions? Tata has talked about wanting to complete a sales process
:07:38. > :07:42.by the end the month. It is crucial, nobody is going to with steel
:07:43. > :07:46.breaking unless the pension fund changes. I understand the gap in the
:07:47. > :07:50.funding which is not unusual in funds like this, it has reduced over
:07:51. > :07:55.the years anyway and this is not a scheme that is about to collapse.
:07:56. > :08:00.But that does need to be dealt with in order for there to be a
:08:01. > :08:04.successful change. You are saying no to the pension protection fund, at
:08:05. > :08:09.Eurosceptical desk article on the real index in and you would like to
:08:10. > :08:12.see a third plan? I would like a situation where people do not see a
:08:13. > :08:17.huge loss benefits I think pension protection is wrong and there are a
:08:18. > :08:20.number of hazards for the UK government on that. I look for a
:08:21. > :08:25.solution to protect the integrity of the scheme that does not see
:08:26. > :08:28.enormous cuts on those involved. Trustees have said there will be
:08:29. > :08:33.cuts involved but they think the reindexing is the most likely option
:08:34. > :08:36.and if they stick with that, can they convince you? Let's see it, we
:08:37. > :08:41.have not seen the figures and the detail and until we see that, it is
:08:42. > :08:45.difficult to give an opinion. In principle, you have heard what I
:08:46. > :08:49.have said about what should be done with the pension scheme. What about
:08:50. > :08:53.the report that Tata might be reconsidering the sale process given
:08:54. > :08:57.the improving market conditions, what the jewel reaction to that be?
:08:58. > :09:04.It is not a question of who runs the steel industry but the commitment
:09:05. > :09:07.they showed -- what would your reaction to that be? Some workers
:09:08. > :09:10.will say that how can we be sure that Tata will have that commitment
:09:11. > :09:15.when they have already said they want to sell and Tata will have the
:09:16. > :09:19.response to that. We would not want Tata to continue and the pension
:09:20. > :09:24.issue to be dealt with and three years down the line the threat
:09:25. > :09:30.remains. I heard that the loss in Port Talbot in steel was down by two
:09:31. > :09:34.thirds and there is talk of steel making breaking even in the very
:09:35. > :09:37.near future which is very helpful. Funny, it is about having somebody
:09:38. > :09:43.to put in the investment and who is committed to the future of steel in
:09:44. > :09:47.Wales. You think Tata is not given what has happened? They would have
:09:48. > :09:50.to convince people. Tata is a company with a good reputation and
:09:51. > :09:56.that means something to them. They are not a here today and gone
:09:57. > :10:01.tomorrow company, to be fair. Having said they want to sell, if they then
:10:02. > :10:05.want to stay, obviously they will have to convince the workers at the
:10:06. > :10:09.Welsh plans that that is a long-term commitment and they will have two
:10:10. > :10:13.give guarantees in my view to make sure that is the case. We do not
:10:14. > :10:17.want them to stay for now and then look at it in three years' time,
:10:18. > :10:21.that does not give the certainty that workers need. You in Greybull
:10:22. > :10:25.Capital last week for the board meeting that for the board meeting,
:10:26. > :10:33.who did you talk to and what came out of that -- you were in Mumbai.
:10:34. > :10:36.They said that the position at the moment is to sell. But in the
:10:37. > :10:40.future, the position may change. That is what they said. But they
:10:41. > :10:44.said that is the position at the moment and they have been given the
:10:45. > :10:49.challenge of finding a seller and that is what they are working on.
:10:50. > :10:56.Whether the upturn in steel prices has an influence on their thinking,
:10:57. > :11:00.we will remain to see. What is important is if we were in a
:11:01. > :11:03.situation where there were no bidders, nobody wanted to run the
:11:04. > :11:09.industry, that would be difficult. The seven bidders have said they
:11:10. > :11:14.want to look at the bidders in some detail and that is to be welcomed.
:11:15. > :11:18.And they sticking to the deadline as you understand it of completing the
:11:19. > :11:23.process by the end of June? As time ticks on and they do not publish a
:11:24. > :11:26.short list or name a preferred bidder, it is a tight deadline
:11:27. > :11:31.already. No timescale was indicated to me at the meetings. I think the
:11:32. > :11:35.timescale hopefully has extended. Tata is not losing the money that
:11:36. > :11:39.they were. Yes, they are losing money, but it is not as bad as it
:11:40. > :11:43.was and that might mean the timescale is extended. In some ways,
:11:44. > :11:47.that is good and it gives time for a proper solution to be found, but it
:11:48. > :11:52.still creates that uncertainty for the workers at Port Talbot and the
:11:53. > :11:59.other locations. And we need to say, there is a deal on the table, and
:12:00. > :12:04.that is crucial to all workers. You have spoken to workers at Port
:12:05. > :12:08.Talbot. And we heard some of the men saying the uncertainty is terrible
:12:09. > :12:12.to difficult -- is terrible to live with for those working and for those
:12:13. > :12:16.who have pensions. It is not recent. We have seen lay-offs in the past
:12:17. > :12:20.and people had been concerned for a while. I would say to people in Port
:12:21. > :12:25.Talbot and I live down the road, we are fighting hard to make sure the
:12:26. > :12:27.industry has a future. Carwyn Jones, thank you very much.
:12:28. > :12:30.Immigration is one of the big issues in the run-up to this month's
:12:31. > :12:33.referendum on whether Britain should remain in or leave
:12:34. > :12:37.The most recent official figures put net EU migration to the UK -
:12:38. > :12:39.that's the difference between the numbers of people coming
:12:40. > :12:43.This week, on The Wales Report, we're going look at
:12:44. > :12:48.what the issue means for us here in Wales.
:12:49. > :12:51.I've been to Merthyr to see if the town's past
:12:52. > :13:05.It might be hard to believe now, but this site was once home to the
:13:06. > :13:09.world's biggest ironworks. 250 years ago, the ironworks were at the
:13:10. > :13:14.cutting edge of technology. If village that consisted of sheep
:13:15. > :13:18.tracks and a couple of thousand residents became a magnet for
:13:19. > :13:23.immigrants. At first, they came from other parts of Wales and England and
:13:24. > :13:28.then from Ireland. When the first census was done in 1801, suddenly
:13:29. > :13:37.people discovered that Merthyr, the parish, was the largest in Wales.
:13:38. > :13:42.7700 people. They were astonished. But it kept on growing. By the
:13:43. > :13:48.1880s, Cole was King and the burgeoning economy attracted a
:13:49. > :13:52.second wave of migration to Merthyr. The Jewish refugees came here,
:13:53. > :13:55.Italians came here, they are not refugees but economic migrants.
:13:56. > :14:00.Spanish people came here because the works is importing iron or so
:14:01. > :14:07.Spaniards came over with the iron will. So Merthyr is the most
:14:08. > :14:11.cosmopolitan town in Wales apart from Cardiff and Swansea, the
:14:12. > :14:15.seaports. The boom years of Merthyr have long gone and the unemployment
:14:16. > :14:19.rate is consistently above the wealth -- the Welsh average, but
:14:20. > :14:23.people from other EU country still come here to work. Freedom of
:14:24. > :14:28.movement is a key principle of the EU, the freedom of movement of
:14:29. > :14:32.people, goods and services and capital. Creating a single market
:14:33. > :14:36.with no barriers to travel, trade or investment. But it is the free
:14:37. > :14:40.movement of people principle that concerns a lot of people worried
:14:41. > :14:45.about levels of EU immigration into Wales and the rest of the UK because
:14:46. > :14:54.all you need to work here is an EU passport.
:14:55. > :15:05.Home country of Holland, he worked in IT but the pay was not good. --
:15:06. > :15:10.in Max's home country of Paul and. He says educating and training good
:15:11. > :15:15.workers is expensive to the taxpayer in the country they drawn up. But
:15:16. > :15:20.Britain is getting the benefit of his training without having to pay
:15:21. > :15:26.for it. From my perspective, I strongly believe that the British
:15:27. > :15:34.economy is gaining a lot because they don't... It is people who are
:15:35. > :15:38.paying taxes straightaway and expanding the economy. Today, local
:15:39. > :15:43.factories like that behind me continue to attract workers from
:15:44. > :15:49.other EU member states. Around 2% of the population of Merthyr are EU
:15:50. > :15:58.nationals, below the UK national average of 5%. Some research
:15:59. > :16:03.suggests there is a small impact on jobs and wages and it is most likely
:16:04. > :16:09.to affect lower skilled workers, the sort of people who might be
:16:10. > :16:16.competing for jobs in Merthyr's meat factory. This woman has concerns
:16:17. > :16:21.over the impact of EU immigration on the town. There is not enough jobs
:16:22. > :16:28.and houses in Merthyr for the people who have lived here all their life.
:16:29. > :16:32.There are very low income families. These people are coming, these
:16:33. > :16:36.immigrants, and are prepared practically to work for nothing.
:16:37. > :16:40.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU is the only way for Britain
:16:41. > :16:45.to get back control of its borders and tackle problems caused by
:16:46. > :16:50.immigration. For Remain campaigners, it is not so simple. They say of
:16:51. > :16:54.Britain wants continued access to the single market, freedom of
:16:55. > :16:57.movement is something the country may have to accept.
:16:58. > :17:05.Joining me now on behalf of VoteLeave is Ross England.
:17:06. > :17:13.How important is the immigration issue to the EU debate? An important
:17:14. > :17:17.part of the jigs and one which must be taken seriously. Those of us who
:17:18. > :17:22.want to remain in the EU believe we should be discussing this topic and
:17:23. > :17:28.stressing how important immigration is to Britain. 60% of the EU
:17:29. > :17:33.immigrants into Britain come with a degree. That brings a great deal of
:17:34. > :17:40.skills, particularly to our universities, to our NHS and it
:17:41. > :17:46.enriches our economy as a whole. That does not detract from the fact
:17:47. > :17:52.that of course there are difficulties in certain areas. Your
:17:53. > :17:57.film shot Merthyr, which has a very low rate of immigration. But there
:17:58. > :18:02.are higher rates in for example the London area. To what extent, bass
:18:03. > :18:07.England, do you believe some of the problems caused by immigration in
:18:08. > :18:10.areas where lots of people are moving in and possibly putting
:18:11. > :18:14.strain on resources such as the NHS and schools, to what extent you
:18:15. > :18:22.think that feeds into the fault Leave argument? I think it is clear
:18:23. > :18:29.that leaving the European Union would address those issues. We don't
:18:30. > :18:32.have control over our borders. The UK Government does not have control
:18:33. > :18:39.over who comes into the UK from Europe. Virtually every country in
:18:40. > :18:43.the world controls its own border. The issues you're talking about in
:18:44. > :18:49.terms of the price of labour being pushed down is an inevitable factor
:18:50. > :18:54.when you have a country that is open to a labour market in which there
:18:55. > :18:59.are hundreds of millions of people willing to work for less than the
:19:00. > :19:03.people in that country. It is an uncontroversial thing to say that
:19:04. > :19:11.having free movement of people across the EU pushes deep cost of
:19:12. > :19:16.labour down. Doesn't it depend on whether Britain wants to negotiate a
:19:17. > :19:20.place in the single market? Norway and Iceland are not in the EU but
:19:21. > :19:26.are in the single market so they have to accept freedom of movement.
:19:27. > :19:34.The UK would have its own deal with the European Union. Norway has a
:19:35. > :19:39.unique deal. The UK would be able to negotiate a deal with the EU over
:19:40. > :19:47.which we had very low tariff trade and at the same time we can can --
:19:48. > :19:52.we can control our own borders. Immigration is a complex issue.
:19:53. > :19:57.You're talking about the price of labour being pushed down, so people
:19:58. > :20:03.having less in their pay packets if the are low skilled. At the same
:20:04. > :20:06.time, some immigrants coming in and contributing hugely through their
:20:07. > :20:11.expertise and skills. That can be addressed by a British government
:20:12. > :20:15.which has control over its immigration policy. It is up to the
:20:16. > :20:21.British government to decide once it has the power to decide. What's not
:20:22. > :20:28.to like about having control over Borders? This is a totally spurious
:20:29. > :20:36.argument. Australia has control over its own borders. Today, the Leave
:20:37. > :20:41.campaigners are advocating a points -based system. Australia has twice
:20:42. > :20:50.the number of immigrants that we have. It chooses how many people to
:20:51. > :20:54.let him. The point is you have to have immigration in the modern world
:20:55. > :21:03.in order to invigorate your economy. We work in an international economy.
:21:04. > :21:08.Companies do business abroad. They have headquarters in one country,
:21:09. > :21:15.other plants in other countries. There is bound to be a great deal of
:21:16. > :21:20.immigration. And it is a sign of a successful economy. Why do people
:21:21. > :21:23.want to come to Britain? Because we are doing well. The danger is of
:21:24. > :21:32.course that the people in favour of leaving the EU will get their wish,
:21:33. > :21:38.which will of course cause such a big economic shock that we will have
:21:39. > :21:43.a very per economy and you will get fewer people wanting to come because
:21:44. > :21:49.we are not offering the jobs people come for. Now that is an extreme
:21:50. > :21:54.scenario. At the point is, and Ross says we will do our own deal with
:21:55. > :22:00.Europe, we would do our own deal with Europe, but Europe as a rule
:22:01. > :22:05.for everyone which relates to free movement of people. Among other
:22:06. > :22:11.things. As you said in the film. And therefore that is what is there a
:22:12. > :22:15.choir of Norway and of Iceland. If you want access to that economy,
:22:16. > :22:22.double cushion our economy as a whole, then you need to have free
:22:23. > :22:26.movement of people. Your response to that, that it is spurious to argue
:22:27. > :22:30.that Britain could somehow be the only country to negotiate single
:22:31. > :22:36.market access and not have to negotiate free movement of people.
:22:37. > :22:45.If it wanted to negotiate full single market access, Britain would
:22:46. > :22:48.be in a good position to do that. Britain is the fifth biggest economy
:22:49. > :22:52.in the world. One of the most powerful countries on earth. It is a
:22:53. > :22:58.great shame that British politicians seem to want to talk us down and
:22:59. > :23:07.talked only potential of an independent Britain to throw our
:23:08. > :23:10.weight a bit on the world stage. Thank you for joining as.
:23:11. > :23:13.With the Assembly election over and the EU referendum fast
:23:14. > :23:15.approaching, we are all used to hearing politicians using numbers
:23:16. > :23:17.and stats to back up their arguments.
:23:18. > :23:20.Throughout the campaign, we've been bombarded with conflicting claims
:23:21. > :23:23.about the costs and the benefits of membership from both sides.
:23:24. > :23:26.But do you ever have the sneaking suspicion that politicians might not
:23:27. > :23:30.Will Moy, of fact checkers Full Fact, is here to explain how
:23:31. > :23:33.to demystify the numbers and give us some advice on how we can debunk
:23:34. > :23:53.45. 70,000 jobs will be lost. A lot of people are treated by the feeling
:23:54. > :23:57.you cannot trust what you hear from the people in power. That is not
:23:58. > :24:01.always true. It is hard to know which bits you can trust on which
:24:02. > :24:08.you cannot. As a voter, you can't take anyone's word for anything as
:24:09. > :24:11.totally at face value. There are not many claims you couldn't look at and
:24:12. > :24:16.say that is exactly what is going on. The question is, what do you do
:24:17. > :24:23.next? Ask yourself three questions. Where does it come from? Is there
:24:24. > :24:29.any reason to think this is independent, credible, impartial?
:24:30. > :24:33.Secondly, what are the actually measuring? It has been simplified,
:24:34. > :24:41.it is a head like no. What is underneath and is going on in the
:24:42. > :24:45.real world. Finally, just because something is going on in the real
:24:46. > :24:49.world, the economy is getting bigger or smaller, that doesn't mean that
:24:50. > :24:59.is what it is going to do in your own life or for your family. Two
:25:00. > :25:04.months after the referendum, we have well funded campaigns and people are
:25:05. > :25:08.wary. It is a problem for the campaigns and the voters. People
:25:09. > :25:12.understand there is often more to the story than what they're getting
:25:13. > :25:21.from the campaigns which are trying to persuade them. People don't know
:25:22. > :25:25.what to do next. This is a referendum about what the world will
:25:26. > :25:28.be like in 30 years' time and it is up to you to make a best guess.
:25:29. > :25:33.I'm joined now by Dr Matt Wall, from Swansea University.
:25:34. > :25:39.Welcome to the programme. Politics is about persuasion. I guess we
:25:40. > :25:44.shouldn't be surprised that the politicians want to pick the fact
:25:45. > :25:47.and figures that best support their argument? Absolutely. You'd be
:25:48. > :25:53.surprised if they did anything different. I think the art of the
:25:54. > :25:59.campaign is to pick the best possible fact that cannot be
:26:00. > :26:12.revealed as an outright lie. We have seen that on both sides. These are
:26:13. > :26:17.favourable interpretations of the numbers. How much it costs us to be
:26:18. > :26:22.in the EU and how much it might cost to leave. Both of them we should be
:26:23. > :26:25.sceptical about, you suggest? How does one cultivate an air of
:26:26. > :26:31.scepticism about these things without being cynical? Good
:26:32. > :26:39.question. It is difficult. The video we just watched talks about the
:26:40. > :26:45.source of information. You should be sceptical about things coming from a
:26:46. > :26:52.campaign than something coming from an independent source like the ONS.
:26:53. > :27:04.Immigration figures are based on observation. Economic observations
:27:05. > :27:16.are based on projections. -- economic figures. The further we get
:27:17. > :27:20.into the future, the more difficult the prediction becomes. While there
:27:21. > :27:25.is a relative economic consensus about the short-term effects of a
:27:26. > :27:31.British exit which would generally seem to be negative, 1520 years'
:27:32. > :27:37.time, nobody can really see what effect would be. There has been
:27:38. > :27:43.scepticism about statistics for a long time. On the other hand, we
:27:44. > :27:50.know that statistics is an important way of us learning about the world
:27:51. > :27:52.and improving the world. Florence Nightingale did it. And
:27:53. > :27:57.mathematician and statistician who used these that sticks to marshal
:27:58. > :28:05.the powers that be to implement the policies that saved hundreds of
:28:06. > :28:09.flights. To be responsible with numbers, how much irresponsibility
:28:10. > :28:14.is there on those making these arguments not to dissolution are, do
:28:15. > :28:19.you think? That is an interesting question. I think people are
:28:20. > :28:23.responsible for themselves, for the information they concern. I think
:28:24. > :28:31.disillusioning the voters with stretching the truth, I don't know
:28:32. > :28:36.that is necessarily something... Campaigns must persuade voters and
:28:37. > :28:41.they will take the figures that suits them. In Britain we have a
:28:42. > :28:46.range of independent bodies to give us relatively reliable statistics on
:28:47. > :28:50.things like rove and immigration. I think it is important. The biggest
:28:51. > :28:58.distinction I would make is between projections and distinctions. If you
:28:59. > :29:04.look at independent versus campaign based sources, that will help your
:29:05. > :29:08.sought the chaff from the wheat. Is there a figure you have come across
:29:09. > :29:15.in your career that has stuck with you or has changed your 99% of all
:29:16. > :29:26.statistics are made up on the spot. That is one of my favourites. --
:29:27. > :29:30.your worldview? 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
:29:31. > :29:32.That is one of my favourites. Thank you.
:29:33. > :29:37.We will be holding a special debate the week before the EU referendum.
:29:38. > :29:39.If you'd like to get in touch with us about that
:29:40. > :29:42.or anything else, email us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk.