:00:00. > :00:20.We have the Secretary of State for Wales, the leader of Plaid Cymru and
:00:21. > :00:22.either a couple of experts in order to answer questions on what next for
:00:23. > :00:34.Wales. Good evening and welcome
:00:35. > :00:36.to a special Wales Report. Tonight, we'll be looking
:00:37. > :00:39.at the impact of last week's referendum and the UK's decision
:00:40. > :00:42.to leave the EU on us here in Wales. The fallout from the result
:00:43. > :00:44.shows no sign of waning, with the impact of the Brexit vote
:00:45. > :00:47.being keenly felt by the main political parties, both
:00:48. > :00:49.in Westminster and in the Senedd. Like England, Wales voted to leave
:00:50. > :00:54.the EU, but most Welsh politicians had called on people to back
:00:55. > :00:57.the Remain campaign, leaving them with some pretty big
:00:58. > :00:59.questions to answer. Remember, you can join
:01:00. > :01:11.in the discussion - Colin Jones, can you update is on
:01:12. > :01:16.where you are with negotiations on where we are with the European
:01:17. > :01:22.Union. We are setting up our own team in Brussels and the job of that
:01:23. > :01:27.team will be to start negotiations. We are in a different position to
:01:28. > :01:32.Scotland. Our people voted to leave the European Union. There is no
:01:33. > :01:36.getting away from that. But they voted to leave the European Union,
:01:37. > :01:43.not get done over by them. What are your team doing? We are putting
:01:44. > :01:50.experience into the team there and taking advice from the people
:01:51. > :01:55.involved in the Democratic vote. We are on a different perspective to
:01:56. > :02:00.Scotland and from my perspective I want to make sure we get the best
:02:01. > :02:06.deal for Wales. The money coming should not be stuck in London. In
:02:07. > :02:09.terms of those carrying out the discussions, we know that the Leeds
:02:10. > :02:13.side wanted some of their representatives to be part of that
:02:14. > :02:21.sensation team. Is that something you'd consider or allowed to happen?
:02:22. > :02:25.They don't know what they want both. I listened carefully to the leader
:02:26. > :02:30.of the Welsh Conservatives yesterday, asking him for 3
:02:31. > :02:34.advantages of leaving the EU, and he couldn't even give me 1. This is a
:02:35. > :02:39.Welsh government negotiation. Of course we will report back to the
:02:40. > :02:46.other parties but we need to get on with this. You say you have got
:02:47. > :02:54.teams out there doing work. How much planning happened before the vote on
:02:55. > :03:00.Thursday. It's very difficult to carry out detailed planning because
:03:01. > :03:03.we don't know what happens next. I've listened to Leave campaigners
:03:04. > :03:06.and it's a bit like somebody who's throwing a brick through a window
:03:07. > :03:13.and said how do we put the window back together again. Didn't you have
:03:14. > :03:20.anybody in Cardiff Bay saying, that we might vote out, what will we do
:03:21. > :03:23.afterwards? It would have been a different scenario if we had baited
:03:24. > :03:30.to remain rather than leave. -- voted. We would be speaking to
:03:31. > :03:33.Gibraltar, Scotland and Northern Ireland about how to protect
:03:34. > :03:39.ourselves. We voted to leave so we will be discussing how to get the
:03:40. > :03:46.best deal with after leaving. I got hands tied because of that? Only
:03:47. > :03:51.because that is what people wanted. There's no getting away from that. I
:03:52. > :03:54.do not want to see the money that Wales receives at the moment
:03:55. > :03:59.disappear into a money box in London. We need to get the best deal
:04:00. > :04:03.possible for our people. You say that you want to be part of the
:04:04. > :04:07.single market. You know that free movement of labour will be an
:04:08. > :04:11.intrinsic part of that. If you allow that to happen, isn't that going
:04:12. > :04:15.against the wishes of the people in Wales who have said they don't want
:04:16. > :04:23.that? At the moment the only models on the table involve free movement
:04:24. > :04:29.of people for market access. Some people have said that will change.
:04:30. > :04:31.Well, let's see. From my perspective, I went be saying that
:04:32. > :04:37.we want is the pre-movement of people but what we do wonders access
:04:38. > :04:43.to the single market. After that vividly vital for Welsh business.
:04:44. > :04:47.How do you square that circle? Let's see how flexible the European Union
:04:48. > :04:51.are prepared to be. Flexibility isn't normally a word you'd
:04:52. > :04:59.associate with the European Union. If an oil tank. The question for me
:05:00. > :05:03.is, the union needs to survive. It needs to be far more flexible to
:05:04. > :05:07.survive. That means being farm flexible in terms of changing the
:05:08. > :05:12.ways that have been traditional for 40 years but have to change. You've
:05:13. > :05:19.clearly set up on these negotiations now. Are you concerned that barely
:05:20. > :05:23.made infrastructure projects, such as the Metro project, might be
:05:24. > :05:31.kicked into the long grass now or cancelled altogether? I wrote to the
:05:32. > :05:33.Prime Minister asking him to keep to the promise that every single penny
:05:34. > :05:41.wheelies will be made up by the government. It wasn't his promise
:05:42. > :05:45.there, was it? I expect that promise to be kept by whoever is bigger than
:05:46. > :05:48.ever to Prime Minister. If that promise is not kept we went be able
:05:49. > :05:52.to fund projects that had an element of European funding, which would
:05:53. > :05:58.mean that Wales loses out. What would be the effect if that money
:05:59. > :06:03.that was coming in doesn't come in any more? If we don't get the money
:06:04. > :06:08.from London, the Metro is in difficulty. There are road schemes
:06:09. > :06:11.and apprenticeship schemes that would be in difficulty as well. The
:06:12. > :06:20.leave campaigners made a pledge that everything up any of that scheme
:06:21. > :06:23.would come to Wales for us to decide how the money would be spent. If
:06:24. > :06:30.that money doesn't come, we have a number of problems. We saw in
:06:31. > :06:37.Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon called an emergency cabinet, was calling
:06:38. > :06:42.leaders. Do you regret that it was Monday before you had another
:06:43. > :06:48.cabinet. Why not hold it 2448 hrs earlier? Two things, I'm not sure
:06:49. > :06:56.why the -- whether the Scots have got anywhere. And it was a different
:06:57. > :07:01.object array. Scotland voted to remain, Wales didn't. Scotland has
:07:02. > :07:04.decided it wants to stay in the EU. The Scottish Government has decided
:07:05. > :07:08.that means independence. That is not the view of the people of Wales.
:07:09. > :07:13.From our perspective, this is a long-term game. This will not be
:07:14. > :07:16.resolved in the next week or two but it is something which needs to be
:07:17. > :07:21.resolved in the best interests of the people of Wales in regard to
:07:22. > :07:26.what they baited next week. Considering how Scotland and Wales
:07:27. > :07:35.-- Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, what went wrong in
:07:36. > :07:40.Wales? If it was in my control, I would not have chosen this time to
:07:41. > :07:44.have a vote. The English papers and the Eurosceptics have much more
:07:45. > :07:47.penetration in Wales than they do in Northern Ireland and Scotland. That
:07:48. > :07:52.affected people. People were raising immigration with me and where
:07:53. > :07:56.immigration was low, people thought it was a much more important issue.
:07:57. > :08:01.A strange paradox but that is what happened. People would say to me
:08:02. > :08:07.when I pointed out European projects that it is our money anyway. It
:08:08. > :08:11.wasn't but now they expect it to be delivered by the Leave Campaign.
:08:12. > :08:16.Isn't it a fairly damning indictment of the Labour government since
:08:17. > :08:21.devolution that we had billions of pounds coming in, 15 years of that,
:08:22. > :08:27.that they turn round and say, we are not interested in that at all, we
:08:28. > :08:30.will turn our backs on the institution that was giving us the
:08:31. > :08:35.money. That's because of the way you have handled that, isn't it? No,
:08:36. > :08:41.people were saying to me that this is our money. From Wales's
:08:42. > :08:44.perspective this was money coming in from the European Union and it is
:08:45. > :08:48.money that needs to keep coming in. Why went to bed saying, if Carl
:08:49. > :08:54.Wynne Jones says so, that must be it? Six weeks after the election
:08:55. > :09:01.campaign, it is impossible to have an effective referendum campaign.
:09:02. > :09:05.Most Labour voters voted to remain and most conservative voters voted
:09:06. > :09:12.to leave and that tells you something. It was a difficult
:09:13. > :09:16.campaign to fight. We have had people saying there needs to be a
:09:17. > :09:20.time of soul-searching, of listening because we don't connect with our
:09:21. > :09:23.working class communities, what's the point of labour gesture market
:09:24. > :09:31.doesn't seem to me that you are buying into that. That is correct.
:09:32. > :09:37.-- she is correct. We had an election six weeks ago and they gave
:09:38. > :09:43.us the largest share of the vote. There was a massive drop in your
:09:44. > :09:47.share. We worked hard to make sure that we maximised our vote and I was
:09:48. > :09:51.told it would be worse. There are some communities that will
:09:52. > :09:54.disconnected from politics, from all politics, and some people were
:09:55. > :10:00.saying to me it is a protest vote. They are angry and this is how they
:10:01. > :10:04.are letting it out. Lots of people were saying to me, we are still
:10:05. > :10:09.labour, I am going to vote Labour but I'm going to give the Tories a
:10:10. > :10:15.kicking. When you tried to explain this was not how to do it, they
:10:16. > :10:19.didn't want to hear that. What is clear is that those who made the
:10:20. > :10:23.promises to Wales have do keep them and we make sure the money still
:10:24. > :10:27.comes to Wales. That glosses over the disconnect between you and your
:10:28. > :10:31.heartland, the working-class areas, which I've always supported Labour
:10:32. > :10:35.and now certainly from your point of view, from Jeremy Corbyn's point of
:10:36. > :10:40.view, and listening, aren't interested. Many of our voters
:10:41. > :10:45.disagreed with us on the referendum question for a number of issues.
:10:46. > :10:48.There are questions for us as a party to make sure we can connect
:10:49. > :10:54.with many of our voters again and we can -- we have had this conversation
:10:55. > :10:57.within the party. That means we have got local government elections next
:10:58. > :11:01.year, hugely important that our counsellors are active in our
:11:02. > :11:05.communities as many of them are in order to build up from grass weeds.
:11:06. > :11:09.You say you need to listen, something needs to change. What is
:11:10. > :11:14.going to change? We've heard this before and yet here you are being
:11:15. > :11:20.given a kicking in your heartland. Part of the answer lies in job
:11:21. > :11:24.security. I came across people and it was clear to me that the U was
:11:25. > :11:31.the target for them because they felt insecure. They doubt that there
:11:32. > :11:35.are jobs were not valued, why not well paid, there was no union
:11:36. > :11:39.representation and they were without job security. They remembered their
:11:40. > :11:44.parents having all those things. How do you deal with all of that? We
:11:45. > :11:47.have to move back to the days when the society had proper employment
:11:48. > :11:50.rights and people felt desperately insecure and will express that
:11:51. > :11:54.unless they get the kind of security in their lives that they once
:11:55. > :11:59.enjoyed. Globalisation is a good thing in some ways but for many
:12:00. > :12:03.people it's led to secure well-paid jobs becoming insecure, temporary
:12:04. > :12:07.contracts, sometimes zero hours, with Labour pensions at the end of
:12:08. > :12:13.it. That needs to be dealt with properly so that people have
:12:14. > :12:18.implement rights at a UK level. At a UK level, I mentioned there was a
:12:19. > :12:21.failure on your part and Jeremy Corbyn could have the same said
:12:22. > :12:28.about him. What do you make of the contest? This was never going to be
:12:29. > :12:32.resolved in any other way. The party is deeply divided. We have no hope
:12:33. > :12:36.of winning an election if we carry on like this. There needs to be a
:12:37. > :12:43.resolution and then of course that means a leadership election. Do you
:12:44. > :12:49.think there will be an election later this year? It would need
:12:50. > :12:53.support from Labour MPs for that to occur and that would be difficult. I
:12:54. > :12:57.want to be in a position in October when we are far stronger and in a
:12:58. > :13:00.position to win in an election but we're not at the moment. Would
:13:01. > :13:05.Jeremy Corbyn be your first choice of leader to go into that election?
:13:06. > :13:09.I never support any particular candidate for a leadership bid. I
:13:10. > :13:13.never call on other leaders of my own party to consider their
:13:14. > :13:21.position, that is not my role. What I do say and what is obvious to
:13:22. > :13:23.everybody is that we can't carry on with things as they are. The only
:13:24. > :13:26.way to resolve this is through another leadership contest. If you
:13:27. > :13:28.have a situation down here in the Assembly where the overwhelming
:13:29. > :13:32.majority of Assembly members here were calling for you to stand down
:13:33. > :13:37.and no confidence, as Jeremy Corbyn housing, would you carry on as he
:13:38. > :13:40.has done? It is difficult to see how that would be possible if it
:13:41. > :13:46.happened here in Cardiff. The only way to resolve this is through
:13:47. > :13:48.another leadership contest. Is the outcome of that leadership contest
:13:49. > :13:52.going to be that Jeremy Corbyn will win again because he has the
:13:53. > :13:55.overwhelming support of members? He did last year but we don't know what
:13:56. > :14:00.the outcome will be this time around but what we do know is that we can't
:14:01. > :14:03.carry on as we are. We can't be in a situation where we have the vast
:14:04. > :14:07.majority of MPs was no confidence in their own leader and the only way to
:14:08. > :14:11.resolve it is through another leadership contest. Is there a
:14:12. > :14:14.problem if Jeremy Corbyn has to stand again and wins, what does that
:14:15. > :14:20.say to you going into the general election we might see later this
:14:21. > :14:22.year when the party will be massively divided in terms of MPs
:14:23. > :14:25.having to fall behind a leader they don't really want? We can't win an
:14:26. > :14:30.election if we are seen as divided. It is obvious, we saw that in 1983.
:14:31. > :14:33.You say you were call for him to leave but it seems to me that
:14:34. > :14:36.everything you are saying is that he should probably leave. No, I am
:14:37. > :14:41.saying there should be another leadership contest and that is the
:14:42. > :14:45.only way that this can be resolved. How hopeful are you with any chance
:14:46. > :14:50.of winning an election with Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of Labour? We
:14:51. > :14:53.have no chance as things stand given the current state of the party
:14:54. > :14:59.Westminster and this needs to be revolved -- resolved. That was the
:15:00. > :15:22.First Minister. The new leader will have a fully
:15:23. > :15:26.tray waiting when they take up office in September but the first
:15:27. > :15:30.task is the not so small matter of negotiating the British withdrawal
:15:31. > :15:34.from the European Union. Key to making the Welsh voice heard in
:15:35. > :15:37.those negotiations as the Secretary of State, the Conservative MP, Alun
:15:38. > :15:42.Cairns, I caught up with him earlier.
:15:43. > :15:45.We are few days on an hour from the referendum campaign. Why did Wales
:15:46. > :15:50.and the UK vote to leave the European Union? What is really
:15:51. > :15:53.important is that we have to respond to the referendum outcome. People
:15:54. > :15:56.voted and they have made their decision so it is up to the
:15:57. > :16:00.government now to respond positively on that basis so as a result I have
:16:01. > :16:04.been holding a series of meetings with business leaders and with
:16:05. > :16:07.higher education and further education colleges and local
:16:08. > :16:10.authorities and I have plans of meeting a range of charities as well
:16:11. > :16:14.that benefit from the European single market or European aid.
:16:15. > :16:18.Coming on to that in a moment. I just want to get your views on what
:16:19. > :16:21.happens, especially in those parts of Wales that we have been
:16:22. > :16:25.discussing that received most money from the European Union grants and
:16:26. > :16:32.the ones that strongly voted to leave the European Union. What went
:16:33. > :16:35.on there, do you think? It is difficult to tell but it is almost
:16:36. > :16:39.irrelevant at this stage because we need to demonstrate that we are
:16:40. > :16:43.responding to the demand to leave the European Union but we also need
:16:44. > :16:53.to understand why and Willie to look at the European aid programmes in
:16:54. > :16:56.those areas that would have voted most in favour of remaining in the
:16:57. > :16:58.European Union and a small part of that might be how the lack of
:16:59. > :17:01.traction of those schemes would have had. Some of the projects that were
:17:02. > :17:03.being pursued might not have resonated in the way that the
:17:04. > :17:07.designers of those projects would have thought. That might have been
:17:08. > :17:14.part of it but the wider issue of benefit claimants across people in
:17:15. > :17:20.Europe and immigration problems and how they saw that that was not being
:17:21. > :17:27.managed. Is that saying that grant money was wasted money? We need to
:17:28. > :17:31.look at that. I am not saying it is the single answer but it is a
:17:32. > :17:33.complex situation about relationships between communities
:17:34. > :17:38.that certain parts of the country voted leave and other parts of the
:17:39. > :17:40.country voted remain and we need to analyse that end it is far too
:17:41. > :17:47.simplistic to come up with one answer. Looking at your colleagues
:17:48. > :17:50.as Conservative MPs and awful lot of promises were made about that money
:17:51. > :17:54.coming to Wales and Wales would not be a penny worse off in the event of
:17:55. > :17:57.a leave vote. How important is it for you now that you personally hold
:17:58. > :18:01.those colleagues of yours to account and make sure they keep their
:18:02. > :18:06.promises? The referendum decision has been taken and the Prime
:18:07. > :18:10.Minister set up a specialist unit in Whitehall that will analyse all of
:18:11. > :18:22.the implications so that by the time the new Prime Minister is in place
:18:23. > :18:26.in a couple of months' time, that he or she would be in the best possible
:18:27. > :18:28.place to respond. I have been meeting with businesses, with
:18:29. > :18:30.universities and further education colleges and local authorities to
:18:31. > :18:33.find out what are their priorities so as the Secretary of State I will
:18:34. > :18:36.be feeding into that unit but also responding to the recommendations of
:18:37. > :18:38.that unit in the Cabinet table. You are the voice of Wales in that
:18:39. > :18:42.cabinet table and promises were made that money would still be coming to
:18:43. > :18:47.Wales. Surely it is your job to say that you need to keep that promise?
:18:48. > :18:50.Of course there are lots of uncertainties but I will absolutely
:18:51. > :18:55.be banging the jump for Wales as I know the First Minister will be and
:18:56. > :18:58.I will be working and in glove in getting a fair settlement for Wales
:18:59. > :19:03.but there are lots of uncertainties and we don't know the impact on the
:19:04. > :19:08.economy but I have been hugely encouraged today by the response
:19:09. > :19:11.from businesses and the best quote I heard was that entrepreneurs thrive
:19:12. > :19:15.on change and that was the response from businesses who are exporting
:19:16. > :19:18.already and importing now and it demonstrates the dynamism that
:19:19. > :19:22.exists. We are in a much stronger position. The deficit is at a much
:19:23. > :19:27.lower level than it was and the economy is in a robust position and
:19:28. > :19:31.we have the fastest growth of any of the world's leading nations so when
:19:32. > :19:44.you put it all in contacts we are in a good position to respond.
:19:45. > :19:49.When you businesses say they thrive on change and so on, that is in
:19:50. > :19:51.marked contrast to what we had in the referendum campaign and might
:19:52. > :19:53.feed into the idea that it was a project fear on behalf of the remain
:19:54. > :19:56.campaigners. Businesses are telling me that they see the opportunities
:19:57. > :19:59.now that they have here and they are realists and they are pragmatic and
:20:00. > :20:02.they have to react on the decision of the referendum, there is no point
:20:03. > :20:08.wallowing in it and saying it is doom and gloom because we can't get
:20:09. > :20:12.access anymore but they now see that markets elsewhere, they now see that
:20:13. > :20:17.they are rightly making demands that they will have as much of open
:20:18. > :20:22.access to the open market as possible. I have said to them that I
:20:23. > :20:26.will be making the UK Tite resource available to them so that the
:20:27. > :20:32.response from the UK Government, that they are fully part of that to
:20:33. > :20:37.trade and import and export to places not only in Europe but well
:20:38. > :20:40.beyond. I guess for businesses, they always say uncertainty is the enemy
:20:41. > :20:44.of businesses so wouldn't it it therefore have been better if the
:20:45. > :20:48.whole process and negotiation began immediately and in that regard may
:20:49. > :20:51.be David Cameron's idea to stand down and nothing starting now until
:20:52. > :20:57.September and all that uncertainty will continue for two months. I was
:20:58. > :21:00.so recovered -- encouraged by the response from business and
:21:01. > :21:03.universities and the local authorities. None of them want
:21:04. > :21:08.article 50 invoked immediately, they would prefer a period of calm so
:21:09. > :21:10.that we can analyse what the implications are and then the Prime
:21:11. > :21:17.Minister is in the strongest position to respond when he or she
:21:18. > :21:21.becomes Prime Minister. I would expect, and let's be frank, for the
:21:22. > :21:26.next two years absolutely, and I would suggest beyond that, for the
:21:27. > :21:30.next two years we are full and active members of the European Union
:21:31. > :21:34.so we get full access to the markets and full draw down on the benefits
:21:35. > :21:40.that come out of Europe and then we should not be ashamed of that but at
:21:41. > :21:46.the same time we will be negotiating how we leave and what lies beyond.
:21:47. > :21:49.You're going to have two sides of the Conservative Party who have been
:21:50. > :21:53.throwing insults at each other and now they somehow have to come
:21:54. > :21:57.together and unite under one leader. I have spoken to most of the
:21:58. > :22:02.leadership contenders and I will speak to them all before the day is
:22:03. > :22:05.out. They are all calling for calm, they are all recognising the work
:22:06. > :22:10.that needs to be done before the formal negotiations start. There is
:22:11. > :22:14.an awful lot of work to be done that is why I have been talking to
:22:15. > :22:17.businesses and local authorities and colleges and universities and so on
:22:18. > :22:22.to understand their priority because I will be taking the priority to the
:22:23. > :22:26.European Union unit and I will also be responding around the Cabinet
:22:27. > :22:29.table to the recommendations that come out of that unit said the
:22:30. > :22:33.opportunities that have been highlighted and the concerns that
:22:34. > :22:36.been written expressed will be responded to absolutely run the
:22:37. > :22:40.Cabinet table. Who should be at the head of that table and the next
:22:41. > :22:44.Prime Minister, in your view? I have said I am supporting Stephen Crabb.
:22:45. > :22:48.I worked very closely with him when he was Secretary of State for Wales
:22:49. > :22:52.Andy had an enormous positive impact on people will remember the tanking
:22:53. > :22:55.of the electrification of the valleys line, for example. I also
:22:56. > :23:00.remember the problems of the Wales Bill under his leadership. Should it
:23:01. > :23:03.be someone who was campaigning to leave the European Union, given that
:23:04. > :23:08.it will be the most important issue facing the next Prime Minister? The
:23:09. > :23:11.next Prime Minister will be one who unifies the party, quite obviously
:23:12. > :23:15.it will be on that basis. All of the potential leaders have talked about
:23:16. > :23:20.bringing the party together, about responding to the situation that we
:23:21. > :23:25.are in. The country has taken the decision and Wales has taken the
:23:26. > :23:29.decision and sometimes of the most deprived communities to leave the
:23:30. > :23:31.European Union so it is up to us as politicians to provide leadership
:23:32. > :23:34.and respond to their demands and that is what I am absolutely
:23:35. > :23:38.determined to do and that is what I am talking to businesses and
:23:39. > :23:42.colleges and universities and to the communities themselves about what
:23:43. > :23:48.they need out of this new situation. We'll Stephen Crabb really be able
:23:49. > :23:51.to tell people and convince them that he in what he is doing when
:23:52. > :23:54.actually he was voting for the complete opposite to happen? Time is
:23:55. > :23:59.past. The referendum was last we are responding to that referendum. We
:24:00. > :24:01.have set up the unit and the negotiations have started with the
:24:02. > :24:05.Prime Minister at the European Commission. He has already been
:24:06. > :24:11.building relationships individually with those leaders. I am already
:24:12. > :24:16.feeding in the responses from businesses and universities and so
:24:17. > :24:19.on to that unit and I have already championed the case of wells around
:24:20. > :24:23.the Cabinet table because we absolutely need to ensure that the
:24:24. > :24:27.union is not fragmented and Wales gets its fair share and I will
:24:28. > :24:31.absolutely deliver on that. Have you spoken to Carwyn Jones or anyone
:24:32. > :24:35.from the Welsh government in terms of how you move with them to move
:24:36. > :24:39.on? I have. I spoke to them immediately after the referendum and
:24:40. > :24:48.we work closely anyway and I met him at an event on Saturday where we
:24:49. > :24:50.were jointly standing at Armed Forces Day. We obviously had
:24:51. > :24:56.informal discussions of immediate priorities... Just informal, though,
:24:57. > :24:59.no cast-iron guarantees? I have said I will absolutely work hand in glove
:25:00. > :25:04.to make sure that his priorities and my priorities coincide so that the
:25:05. > :25:07.European Union who are preparing negotiations for the disentanglement
:25:08. > :25:12.is absolutely in the interest of Wales. The Welsh government has gone
:25:13. > :25:15.ahead and set up its own unit in Brussels working with institutions
:25:16. > :25:20.there, getting on with the work already, are you feeding into that
:25:21. > :25:24.at all? The prime negotiations will be done from the European Union --
:25:25. > :25:27.unit at Whitehall because it is the member state that does it but any
:25:28. > :25:31.additional work and support the Welsh government can provide we will
:25:32. > :25:50.use the information... They say they are just ploughing
:25:51. > :25:54.ahead without Whitehall and they just want to get the work done. We
:25:55. > :25:57.are working already on preparations for it but let us not forget that we
:25:58. > :25:59.don't want to see Article 50 invoked or the formal negotiations to star
:26:00. > :26:02.because once it does the clock starts ticking to two years and the
:26:03. > :26:05.more work we can do before that, the stronger position the next Prime
:26:06. > :26:08.Minister will be in in order to use that information to strike the best
:26:09. > :26:10.deal. At the same time we needed to calm down and we need relationships
:26:11. > :26:12.across Europe to be strengthened between the European nations but
:26:13. > :26:14.also between Britain and those individual countries. Some countries
:26:15. > :26:16.are more sympathetic to our position than ours and we clearly want to
:26:17. > :26:19.evolve that relationship so that they will be influencers and friends
:26:20. > :26:25.around the negotiation table. Alun Cairns, thank you very much.
:26:26. > :26:26.Unlike Wales and England, Scotland and Northern Ireland
:26:27. > :26:30.voted to stay in the EU, so what could all of this mean for
:26:31. > :26:33.The Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has suggested a second
:26:34. > :26:35.independence referendum could be held if it emerged as
:26:36. > :26:38.the only way to protect Scotland's place in the EU.
:26:39. > :26:41.And the question of independence is also being raised here in Wales,
:26:42. > :26:44.by Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood, who is proposing a new union
:26:45. > :26:47.Until now, Plaid has only regarded an independent Wales
:26:48. > :26:58.Thank you for coming in this evening. What happened last Thursday
:26:59. > :27:04.that makes you think an independent Wales more than ever before is the
:27:05. > :27:11.answer? This is not a situation of our own choosing. People voted last
:27:12. > :27:15.week to Brexit, but Scotland clearly voted to remain and Northern Ireland
:27:16. > :27:22.did as well, and what we have heard since then is that people in
:27:23. > :27:26.Scotland looks set to pursue and agenda, a referendum agenda, and if
:27:27. > :27:31.they vote to leave the United Kingdom of course the United Kingdom
:27:32. > :27:34.will exist no more, so under those circumstances we believe that there
:27:35. > :27:39.is an opportunity for Wales now to have a conversation about our
:27:40. > :27:46.long-term future and we believe that Wales as an independent nation, in a
:27:47. > :27:49.new union of nations, within the United Kingdom could be a way
:27:50. > :27:55.forward for us if that is what people would choose. Why should
:27:56. > :27:59.Wales be any different to England? The referendum result was pretty
:28:00. > :28:03.much the same so why would people go for independence on the basis of
:28:04. > :28:10.that? The UK referendum result last week was the same for both of us.
:28:11. > :28:14.People voted for the UK to pull out of the European Union. They did not
:28:15. > :28:21.vote for Wales to disappear. There is a very real risk that we could
:28:22. > :28:27.lose our national identity if the UK is no more. The idea of a right-wing
:28:28. > :28:30.England and Wales entity is something that I am not prepared to
:28:31. > :28:37.put up with without being able to offer an alternative. You talk about
:28:38. > :28:43.a new union. What does independence mean if it is a union and would
:28:44. > :28:46.Scotland be interested in that? Regardless of what happens in terms
:28:47. > :28:50.of each individual nation's independence, there would still be a
:28:51. > :28:54.need for the four countries that currently make up the United Kingdom
:28:55. > :28:58.to cooperate together. If independence is on the cards for
:28:59. > :29:01.Scotland, they said in the last referendum that they would continue
:29:02. > :29:09.with the same currency as the rest of the UK. So there are means by
:29:10. > :29:13.which we would need to pool some functions and it's up to each of us
:29:14. > :29:19.as independent individual nations then to decide how much we pool and
:29:20. > :29:22.how much we keep for ourselves. For example, you'd know the report
:29:23. > :29:27.earlier this year said an independent Wales would have a
:29:28. > :29:30.financial black hole of about ?15 billion a year because tax taken
:29:31. > :29:36.isn't as much as the benefits. That would stay then? One option would be
:29:37. > :29:40.for us to work out between us how we can redistribute the United
:29:41. > :29:47.Kingdom's current wealth between us as nations. That is one option.
:29:48. > :29:50.Short of full financial independence, because you are right.
:29:51. > :29:56.There is a big job of work to do to close that financial prosperity gap
:29:57. > :30:00.and that his work we need to do as well. Plaid Cymru has been saying
:30:01. > :30:05.that for a long time. We want to be in the position of having a path
:30:06. > :30:10.potentially back into European Union membership if that's something that
:30:11. > :30:14.people want to do long term. You seem to be ignoring what happened
:30:15. > :30:19.last Thursday. You are treating Wales as if it was Scotland. People
:30:20. > :30:24.in Wales voted out of the EU and you seem to be trying to find a path
:30:25. > :30:30.back in. You are right, people voted out, but we are talking about a new
:30:31. > :30:35.context. If the UK is no more and Wales chooses to go down the path of
:30:36. > :30:38.independence within a new union of nations, that opens up new
:30:39. > :30:49.possibilities for us and we should be prepared to look at all
:30:50. > :30:55.possibilities on the table. We interviewed Carwyn trained earlier
:30:56. > :31:03.on and I said he wasn't true to Labour's heartland and isn't the
:31:04. > :31:07.same from you. Is there any wilful independence in Wales? I think what
:31:08. > :31:18.happened last week is that people voted for posterity. -- they voted
:31:19. > :31:23.for change. They wanted to fight against austerity and I don't think
:31:24. > :31:28.that what we saw on Thursday was any different to me winning the Rhondda.
:31:29. > :31:33.They are losing out and they want to have a voice and they say. Of course
:31:34. > :31:38.we respect that. But also we have do think about Wales and its long-term
:31:39. > :31:44.needs and as things stand at the moment we have no clue where we are
:31:45. > :31:48.going. Our economy is under threat, jobs are under threat, finances for
:31:49. > :31:52.Wales are under threat. We need to have some idea where we are going as
:31:53. > :31:56.a nation and Plaid Cymru believes that a number of options should be
:31:57. > :32:00.on the table and nothing should be ruled out. In the more immediate
:32:01. > :32:05.future, discussions will be taking place in the next few days and
:32:06. > :32:09.weeks. Should you be part of those negotiations? Yes, I think we did
:32:10. > :32:13.have a team Wales approach to this. We should speak as one voice, as
:32:14. > :32:17.Wales, in terms of making sure that our needs articulate it and that we
:32:18. > :32:21.are very clear about what we all want from the situation. Nicola
:32:22. > :32:28.Sturgeon is going on harrowing. I'm the one making the decisions. She is
:32:29. > :32:32.not listening to anyone else. Why should Carwyn Jones? She has a
:32:33. > :32:36.mandate to remain from the people in her country. In Wales, it is less
:32:37. > :32:45.clear-cut. People voted pretty much the D - 50. Maybe that if a mandate
:32:46. > :32:50.for decisive action now so as not to confuse things? What we have to do
:32:51. > :32:55.is to make sure that Wales and its needs are met in full and I believe
:32:56. > :33:00.we can best make that happen by approaching it is Wales now, not as
:33:01. > :33:05.Welsh government. The worst government is a minority
:33:06. > :33:11.government... As is the SNP in Scotland? I think they have much
:33:12. > :33:13.more of a mandate to speak about half of the people of Scotland
:33:14. > :33:20.bearing in mind the referendum result than the First Minister of
:33:21. > :33:23.Wales does. The implications of the referendum results will no doubt be
:33:24. > :33:26.debated for years to come. The apparent disconnect
:33:27. > :33:28.between our politicians and voters will be a big part
:33:29. > :33:30.of that conversation. With most Welsh politicians
:33:31. > :33:32.supporting the UK's continued membership of the EU
:33:33. > :33:34.and the majority of voters in Wales choosing to leave,
:33:35. > :33:37.are our politicians out of touch? I'll be discussing this
:33:38. > :33:38.with political commentators Professor Laura McAlister
:33:39. > :33:41.and Daran Hill in just a moment. But first, here's the view
:33:42. > :33:43.from Ebbw Vale, in Blaenau Gwent, which returned the biggest
:33:44. > :34:08.leave vote in Wales. My parents voted Labour and it was
:34:09. > :34:11.always thought that Labour were for the working people but that's no
:34:12. > :34:17.longer true. Their role as bad as each other. They don't tell the
:34:18. > :34:23.truth, they lie about everything. They only have to open their mouths
:34:24. > :34:26.and they are lying, most of them. David Cameron, my boat out of Europe
:34:27. > :34:39.was a protest against him. I would vote for you Ukip and that would be
:34:40. > :34:47.a protest vote against the other parties. I've never voted before and
:34:48. > :34:51.I'll never vote again. 40 years ago our country was fabulous and now it
:34:52. > :34:56.is a shambles. It can't get anywhere, can it? We need to stand
:34:57. > :35:00.on our own two feet. We don't need other people. We want our country to
:35:01. > :35:10.be ours. There was nobody in particular that I was voting
:35:11. > :35:14.against. I just think we need a change. We have to think about our
:35:15. > :35:20.children's beach. We don't want them struggling like we have struggled. I
:35:21. > :35:24.vote for the people -- the party that I think will be the best for
:35:25. > :35:30.the people. I don't think there's anyone they get that I can... I
:35:31. > :35:39.think they want to get rid of the lot of them and start again. Start
:35:40. > :35:45.with a clean slate. Well, plenty to discuss them with my guests.
:35:46. > :35:49.Professor Laura McAlister and Daran Hill.
:35:50. > :35:54.Thank you for coming in this evening. That makes a grim viewing
:35:55. > :36:00.for any politician in terms of the complete disconnect not with any
:36:01. > :36:05.party but with politics in general. In fairness, this has been a long
:36:06. > :36:10.time coming. Rather be right back to the beginning of devolution when we
:36:11. > :36:13.had such a long -- Ltd popular support for establishing the
:36:14. > :36:17.assembly and we have seen low turnouts, the electoral system
:36:18. > :36:21.benefiting one big party in terms of getting elected, but there's been no
:36:22. > :36:28.real big will towards either the project or the politicians and this
:36:29. > :36:31.referendum of last week, where we saw a much bigger turnout of course
:36:32. > :36:37.than any assembly election, reflected the chasm which exists now
:36:38. > :36:41.between elected representatives, politicians, and those who are
:36:42. > :36:49.baiting. Will this be a wake-up call? In terms of labour losing its
:36:50. > :36:54.heartlands, Plaid Cymru not convincing the newly found support,
:36:55. > :37:01.they have turned their back on everyone? Will this change things? I
:37:02. > :37:05.have been waiting for a change in the last three years since Ukip did
:37:06. > :37:11.really well in the European elections and almost beat the Labour
:37:12. > :37:15.Party. I watched last year when Ukip held every deposit. Every pattern of
:37:16. > :37:19.voting suggests to me that something radically has changed in terms of
:37:20. > :37:28.the way many people connect with politics. Since that boat came in on
:37:29. > :37:32.Friday, finally, Plaid Cymru, that Liberal Democrats, the mainstream
:37:33. > :37:36.Labour Party have all realised what was blindingly obvious to many other
:37:37. > :37:40.people, that on the question of Europe, fundamentally, Wales was not
:37:41. > :37:44.with them and Wales was not ready to be taken for granted. But let me
:37:45. > :37:51.pursue this point. Since that fate last week, what's really changed in
:37:52. > :37:54.terms of the narrative coming out about main political parties? Plaid
:37:55. > :37:57.Cymru has been calling for independence and trying to pretend
:37:58. > :38:02.that Wales almost wanted to stay in in the fairway that Scotland did and
:38:03. > :38:06.the Labour Party is talking about protecting funding, ie no real
:38:07. > :38:11.change, just carry on spending the same blocks of money in the same
:38:12. > :38:17.way. Laura, we spent two Carwyn Jones today and up at the point to
:38:18. > :38:20.him that there needs to be a lot of soul-searching for the Labour Party
:38:21. > :38:23.now. If we don't represent the working class communities, what's
:38:24. > :38:27.the point? It doesn't seem to me that he was embracing the need for
:38:28. > :38:32.any change. Is there a danger that they will carry on regardless,
:38:33. > :38:38.ignoring, to an extent, the result last week? I can't see a big danger
:38:39. > :38:41.than ignoring this result, to be honest. If every one of the
:38:42. > :38:51.political parties don't do some really serious analysis, and really
:38:52. > :38:56.forensic soul-searching, of the kind that Daran was talking about, they
:38:57. > :39:00.are all in trouble. The point is, they can't do this alone. If they
:39:01. > :39:06.look parochially at their own teams that listening to the electorate,
:39:07. > :39:11.they are missing big messages that came over last week. What you make
:39:12. > :39:16.of the Plaid Cymru response which is that actually, let's go for
:39:17. > :39:19.independence again. Is that a knee jerk reaction? I understand it but
:39:20. > :39:23.they have a couple of fundamental problems that stop at the
:39:24. > :39:28.incredible. First of all, as we said a moment ago, Wales didn't vote like
:39:29. > :39:32.Scotland. That is really fundamental. Secondly, it was clear
:39:33. > :39:35.that all of the political leaders in Wales failed to get any kind of
:39:36. > :39:39.traction with the electorate in terms of what they were saying.
:39:40. > :39:46.Leanne Wood's own constituency voted in favour of leave and thirdly, the
:39:47. > :39:49.population of Wales is not like the population of Scotland. There is in
:39:50. > :39:56.this groundswell of support for the independence and the economic
:39:57. > :40:00.situation that we face now makes the Welsh economy even less sustainable
:40:01. > :40:07.than it might have been before the way -- before the vote last week.
:40:08. > :40:11.Just under half of Wales were for remaining if you look at the
:40:12. > :40:20.statistics. Is it worth looking at that, tapping into it and saying the
:40:21. > :40:27.only way to remain in that is to become independent. The cynical part
:40:28. > :40:31.of me thinks that they just assumed we would vote remain, England would
:40:32. > :40:36.fade out and then they would be able to dust of the independence card. My
:40:37. > :40:40.concern is that we are in danger of losing a national Welsh politics
:40:41. > :40:50.here. If you look back at the elections, the assembly elections,
:40:51. > :40:54.that was just a selection of local elections. That is the problem we
:40:55. > :40:58.have now. We have a progressive elite in some of the metropolitan
:40:59. > :41:03.areas like Cardiff who can't quite believe what the rest of Wales is
:41:04. > :41:08.voting and yet anybody who is committed to a national solution to
:41:09. > :41:12.this in Wales has do really embrace all these areas and come up with a
:41:13. > :41:16.plan to satisfy more people than just those in their immediate
:41:17. > :41:19.facility. I was really surprised when people said they couldn't
:41:20. > :41:24.believe how many people voted leave. I think a lot of us could believe
:41:25. > :41:29.it. Maybe they are not talking to people in the right way in the right
:41:30. > :41:32.circles, because as your clip showed a moment ago, there is a complete
:41:33. > :41:38.lack of trust and a complete lack of respect for politicians as they are
:41:39. > :41:43.seen by the electorate. But we are where we are now, as a country
:41:44. > :41:47.moving ahead. I don't mean this as a criticism, but you do get the idea
:41:48. > :41:51.that maybe a lot of the politicians are stumbling in the dark at the
:41:52. > :41:55.moment, not really sure what will happen next, where will they go,
:41:56. > :42:00.what will they do? Is that a fair summary? It's difficult to get a
:42:01. > :42:03.battle plan when the world is falling apart around your ears,
:42:04. > :42:08.regardless of which political party you are in, there are so many
:42:09. > :42:12.seismic changes occurring. For lots of individuals and lots of people in
:42:13. > :42:16.the hierarchies of the political parties that were on the remain
:42:17. > :42:21.side, they need to have a serious think about how they failed to
:42:22. > :42:26.convince the Welsh electorate. I think that stronger in was the worst
:42:27. > :42:32.political campaign, you use the word elitist, are back that up 100%. No
:42:33. > :42:35.wonder they won in Cardiff and lost everywhere else. The messages were
:42:36. > :42:39.establishment based. They kept talking about figures and spending
:42:40. > :42:45.without referring to individual projects. Do you know what? I don't
:42:46. > :42:49.think people believed them. I think in the poorest parts of Wales,
:42:50. > :42:53.obviously there was a corollary between deprivation and Vote Leave
:42:54. > :42:58.in the patterns of voting, in the poorest areas of Wales, as Daran
:42:59. > :43:03.said, those arguments about protecting savings and pensions and
:43:04. > :43:07.jobs didn't have any traction is because a lot of people didn't have
:43:08. > :43:11.jobs or savings. It is naive to think that argument would land well
:43:12. > :43:17.in those areas. Thank you both very much. I can't let you go though
:43:18. > :43:22.without talking about one element of where we are still in Europe. How is
:43:23. > :43:26.it going to look on Friday? I am quietly confident. It will be a hard
:43:27. > :43:32.game against Belgium but the word from Wales camp is that they have
:43:33. > :43:35.real confidence that we can get past them and my tip is that it will be
:43:36. > :43:38.in extra time. You heard it here first.
:43:39. > :43:43.If you'd like to get in touch with us about what's been discussed
:43:44. > :43:45.tonight or anything else, email us at
:43:46. > :43:47.thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk, or follow us on social media -
:43:48. > :43:51.We'll be back next week, thanks for watching.