:00:15. > :00:19.Tonight on The Wales Report, is there a looming crisis for GP
:00:20. > :00:23.services in Wales? Will or the evidence from those working on the
:00:24. > :00:29.front line. The Welsh journey towards Brexit. We will be asking
:00:30. > :00:34.Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood about that, and we also talk about trust
:00:35. > :00:37.in politicians. These days, it is common to hear people say
:00:38. > :00:42.politicians are all in it for themselves. There is a perception
:00:43. > :00:48.ins are greedy or corrupt. Are we right to be so suspicious? That is
:00:49. > :00:56.coming up. Stay with us for The Wales Report. Good evening, and
:00:57. > :01:00.welcome to The Wales Report. On the night's programme, a subject of
:01:01. > :01:04.vital importance to all of us, access to our family doctor. There
:01:05. > :01:09.is growing evidence GP services in Wales are facing something of a
:01:10. > :01:13.crisis. Figures from a new survey by the BMA in Wales this month show
:01:14. > :01:18.more than a quarter of GPs who responded are considering leaving
:01:19. > :01:21.the propeller -- profession. Over 80% are worried about the
:01:22. > :01:25.sustainability of their practice and more than 60% of respondeds said
:01:26. > :01:31.they do not have a good work - life balance. Nearly half would not
:01:32. > :01:35.recommend a career in general practice. Despite a boost for health
:01:36. > :01:39.spending in the Welsh government project, under the launch of the new
:01:40. > :01:43.GP campaign, doctors say the concerns of the day's GPs are not
:01:44. > :01:47.being addressed. In a moment I will discuss all of this with Doctor
:01:48. > :01:51.Richard Lewis, the man appointed by the Welsh Government you're ago to
:01:52. > :01:57.help tackle the problems facing primary care. Do not forget you can
:01:58. > :02:08.join the discussion online. With the hashtag below. First GP Doctor Sue
:02:09. > :02:19.Fish gives an insight into a surgery in rural Wales. I normally arrive at
:02:20. > :02:24.the surgery at about half past eight, and I then sit down and
:02:25. > :02:32.telephone back the people who have called in that morning and the
:02:33. > :02:36.previous day to see me. Hello, it is Doctor Fish here. Last Tuesday I had
:02:37. > :02:47.a large number of patients, as you can see, who called up. I had 36
:02:48. > :02:53.people who phones up that day asking for appointments. -- phoned up. I
:02:54. > :02:59.will do two hours of face-to-face consultations with patients after
:03:00. > :03:05.that. The main problem is that we cannot recruit any more GPs. My
:03:06. > :03:12.partner here was actually on his own for 18 months. Come in... It is
:03:13. > :03:18.worst in more rural areas than in the cities, but it isn't a career
:03:19. > :03:22.choice for people coming out of medical school any more. Have you
:03:23. > :03:28.ever had any trouble with that leg? The lack of GPs means the GPs
:03:29. > :03:33.currently working are working harder than they were, and working longer
:03:34. > :03:38.hours than they were. And the pressure and stress of that extra
:03:39. > :03:43.work is either meaning that they reduce the number of hours they do,
:03:44. > :03:51.or they are choosing to leave the profession or retire. That is OK.
:03:52. > :03:56.You are welcome. Some days, I can spend up to an hour signing repeat
:03:57. > :04:03.prescriptions, as more and more people are on more and more
:04:04. > :04:11.medication. It takes a lot of time, when our time could be better used
:04:12. > :04:15.doing something else. This is the box of insurance reports we have got
:04:16. > :04:25.that probably has several monthss' worth that we just have not had the
:04:26. > :04:28.time to fill in. We are going off to do my home visits now, so I go to
:04:29. > :04:37.visit people who are not able to come into the surgery. Hello, Mrs
:04:38. > :04:41.Richards. How are you today? The patients are getting older, which
:04:42. > :04:46.means they often have more than one condition, so they are becoming more
:04:47. > :04:54.complex in the issues they bring to us. I have brought you some new
:04:55. > :04:59.tablets for the diabetes. So whereas when I first started 25 years ago
:05:00. > :05:05.someone might just have diabetes and you were dealing with one condition,
:05:06. > :05:10.in one individual, they will probably have diabetes, heart
:05:11. > :05:16.disease and may even have some respiratory problems as well. I then
:05:17. > :05:26.returned to the surgery at four o'clock and I will telephone Triage
:05:27. > :05:34.again, then do a face-to-face surgery from half past four until
:05:35. > :05:39.six o'clock. In five years' time the GP practice will look very different
:05:40. > :05:45.and the public need to be aware that that is going to be the case. I
:05:46. > :05:49.believe they will get a better service by a new look general
:05:50. > :06:00.practice that is not reliant just on GPs. Doctor Sue Fish giving a sense
:06:01. > :06:05.of her working life and I'm joined by a former secretary of the BMA in
:06:06. > :06:09.Wales, Doctor Richard Lewis, now the primary lead for primary care in
:06:10. > :06:13.Wales. Thank you for coming in. A few years ago in your BMA 's role,
:06:14. > :06:24.you use the word impending crisis to talk about GP care. Is that still
:06:25. > :06:27.the case, are not? I recognised the day Doctor Sue Fish said I am a GP
:06:28. > :06:33.myself. I will be in practice this week, as I was last week, so I
:06:34. > :06:38.recognise the challenges in primary care services, not uniquely in Wales
:06:39. > :06:41.but across the UK, and it is a challenge to recruit people,
:06:42. > :06:47.particularly GPs into primary care, in Wales, and two and a half years
:06:48. > :06:50.ago I did warn there was an impending crisis in general
:06:51. > :06:56.practice, if we didn't take action. The reason I have chosen to take on
:06:57. > :06:59.this national role is that I recognise the Welsh government, the
:07:00. > :07:05.health service in Wales, is prepared and committed to take action. It has
:07:06. > :07:09.outlined a national primary care plan for Wales, which is directed at
:07:10. > :07:14.a range of initiatives to try to address the very challenges your
:07:15. > :07:19.film and Doctor Sue Fish's experience and my experience on a
:07:20. > :07:24.day-to-day basis demonstrates. So you no longer, you are giving the
:07:25. > :07:27.impression, think there is an impending crisis, because action is
:07:28. > :07:31.being taken, and we will speak a bit more about that. The extra ?240
:07:32. > :07:35.million and most recently from the health service in Wales, how much of
:07:36. > :07:39.that will be spent for example on primary care and GP services?
:07:40. > :07:43.Currently I think one of the key issues from the film is recruitment
:07:44. > :07:48.and we are in the process of and have just launched a national and
:07:49. > :07:51.international recruitment and marketing campaign for doctors to
:07:52. > :07:58.come to Wales to live and work and train in Wales. As a result of that,
:07:59. > :08:03.the money is being put directly to support trainees in terms of
:08:04. > :08:10.incentives. ?20,000 for those trainees who choose to stay and
:08:11. > :08:14.remain in Wales to work in those difficult to Doctor areas. Uniquely
:08:15. > :08:22.to Wales, ?2000 for GP registrars to enable them, with their examination
:08:23. > :08:27.fees, for instance, but beyond that recruiting doctors and health staff
:08:28. > :08:31.in the Wales, the offering has to be different. The day job has to be
:08:32. > :08:36.manageable. I am not suggesting for a minute solely measured here is
:08:37. > :08:40.money, obviously not. There are different ways of doing things. But
:08:41. > :08:44.in Scotland for example at the moment 11% of the health budget goes
:08:45. > :08:50.towards primary care. I was given the figure of 7.6% for Wales in 2015
:08:51. > :08:54.and 2016. If that figure one you recognise, and if that is why is
:08:55. > :08:59.there such an enormous difference between what for example Scotland
:09:00. > :09:04.are allocating in this area, and Wales? I think it is important to
:09:05. > :09:11.remember we are refocusing finances and resources into primary and
:09:12. > :09:16.community... But is the 7.6% right? 7.6% of the budget in Wales go into
:09:17. > :09:21.primary care and 11% in Scotland. I think those figures probably are
:09:22. > :09:25.right. So why the difference? Primary care and community care of
:09:26. > :09:28.and the health of the population is not just depended on what is
:09:29. > :09:34.delivered in hell for chronic disease and so on but there are a
:09:35. > :09:37.huge range of prevention measures and the programme for government
:09:38. > :09:43.focuses on the determinants of health in terms of the future of the
:09:44. > :09:45.population. -- what is delivered in health. You also have to create a
:09:46. > :09:50.healthier population for the future and that depends on housing,
:09:51. > :09:55.education, employment, the range of other things that we will contribute
:09:56. > :09:59.to people's ill-health. So the different balance toward health
:10:00. > :10:02.versus other spending is entirely appropriate when you look at the
:10:03. > :10:09.whole population and you're looking at the health... The future of that
:10:10. > :10:12.population come into the future. Doctor Sue Fish said something in
:10:13. > :10:29.the film that will intrigue many viewers. In five-year five years'
:10:30. > :10:36.time, it will look totally different, you GP practice. Can you
:10:37. > :10:39.give us some details on that? The role of the practice nurse, for
:10:40. > :10:42.instance, people who take blood in practice. When I started in practice
:10:43. > :10:47.I was often taking blood but that is no longer the case. Using the money
:10:48. > :10:54.I have alluded to, and that is already developing in Wales. We have
:10:55. > :10:59.50 clinical pharmacists working in practices in Wales, consulting with
:11:00. > :11:03.patients who have primarily a medication related problem. Is it a
:11:04. > :11:08.better service for the patient given lots of patients traditionally want
:11:09. > :11:12.to see their GP? Increasingly we now have health professionals with an
:11:13. > :11:16.expertise who can see a range of conditions. For instance, we have
:11:17. > :11:19.dentists in community care, community pharmacists who have
:11:20. > :11:25.skills. You would not think of going to go GP for a dental problem. We
:11:26. > :11:31.have specific skills for the clinical pharmacists I have alluded
:11:32. > :11:33.to, also optometrists, and we are now seeing a whole range of people
:11:34. > :11:40.with eye conditions that normally would have gone to their GPs we are
:11:41. > :11:43.expanding that role. It is also about social care, about harnessing
:11:44. > :11:47.the community resources and the community resilience. We will speak
:11:48. > :11:52.again in the future, Doctor. Thank you very much. Thank you. Earlier
:11:53. > :11:56.this week Carwyn Jones was in Downing Street along with fellow
:11:57. > :11:59.First Ministers Nicola Sturgeon and Arlene Foster attending in many
:12:00. > :12:02.late-night meeting chaired by the Prime Minister on the Government
:12:03. > :12:07.plans for leaving the European Union. They came away with an offer
:12:08. > :12:13.of a direct line, not to Theresa May, but the David Davis, the Brexit
:12:14. > :12:17.secretary. An outcome Nicola Sturgeon said left her deeply
:12:18. > :12:20.disappointed, and this was the reaction of Carwyn Jones. A great
:12:21. > :12:24.deal of uncertainty on the UK position. We do not know the meat of
:12:25. > :12:28.the bonds or indeed the general principle for the negotiation. That
:12:29. > :12:32.said, we welcome the fact there has been a commitment on the part of the
:12:33. > :12:35.UK Government to move forward with the work problem and also a
:12:36. > :12:43.commitment of these meetings more frequently, which is absolutely
:12:44. > :12:46.essential to make sure all nations of the UK have their voices heard.
:12:47. > :12:48.That was the First Minister in Downing Street after those Cox last
:12:49. > :12:51.week. So here is the question. How Will Welch national interest be
:12:52. > :12:55.protected in these negotiations? Here is the Plaid Cymru leader,
:12:56. > :12:59.Leanne Wood. Had you been in that meeting in Downing Street chaired by
:13:00. > :13:02.the Prime Minister, what would you be seeing? I think the most
:13:03. > :13:07.important thing is to articulate clearly what the position in the
:13:08. > :13:10.Brexit negotiations should be and we have said there should be a four
:13:11. > :13:14.country approach to the Brexit negotiations, that we should see
:13:15. > :13:21.very clearly that we want membership of the Single Market, and that when
:13:22. > :13:25.powers are repatriated, that Wales get additional powers through that
:13:26. > :13:29.process. Unless you can articulate clearly what the Welsh national
:13:30. > :13:33.interest is, and I and my team have spent a number of weeks going around
:13:34. > :13:39.and speaking to the key players in the Welsh economy and getting from
:13:40. > :13:44.them what the most important key issues are, because... At the front
:13:45. > :13:48.of it all has to be the economy and the protection of jobs, and that is
:13:49. > :13:51.what is driving Plaid Cymru's approach to this and I think that is
:13:52. > :13:55.what should be driving the First Minister's approach as well. Lots of
:13:56. > :13:59.interesting points there. Let me start with one of them. Membership
:14:00. > :14:05.of the Single Market, which clearly would involve some kind of
:14:06. > :14:09.acceptance of freedom of movement. Nobody disputes that. That is the
:14:10. > :14:12.European Union position, the European Commission position. How do
:14:13. > :14:15.you square that with the way people voted in Wales at the referendum?
:14:16. > :14:21.Clearly freedom of movement is something of people do not like.
:14:22. > :14:25.Yes, freedom of movement was an issue and I am not saying it is the
:14:26. > :14:28.only issue people voted for, but it was not on the ballot paper. The
:14:29. > :14:31.question on the ballot paper was about membership of the European
:14:32. > :14:37.Union and we now have to the kind of Brexit we want. Plaid Cymru
:14:38. > :14:42.advocates a soft Brexit, which means continuing with the Single Market
:14:43. > :14:46.because so many of our jobs, 200,000 of them, rely upon our continued
:14:47. > :14:51.involvement with that single market. Upon membership, not just access,
:14:52. > :14:55.use a? Everyone has access to the Single Market. America has access.
:14:56. > :15:00.We want continued membership. We would prefer obviously continued
:15:01. > :15:05.European Union membership. My party was very strong on the Remain side.
:15:06. > :15:09.We accept we have lost that augment and people have spoken. The question
:15:10. > :15:13.now is the kind of Brexit we have, and a soft Brexit with perhaps an
:15:14. > :15:17.element of free movement of people continued is in the best interest of
:15:18. > :15:22.Wales. Let me give the example of the health service. 30% of our
:15:23. > :15:26.doctors are trained overseas and we have a shortage of doctors right
:15:27. > :15:31.throughout the Welsh health service, particularly GPs in the valleys and
:15:32. > :15:37.other places. We would be cutting off our nose to spite our face if we
:15:38. > :15:40.did not allow some means for people with key skills for our economy and
:15:41. > :15:46.our public services to be allowed in.
:15:47. > :15:55.I am just wondering on this key issue, no one is seriously
:15:56. > :15:58.suggesting that the pattern of Brexit will involve membership of
:15:59. > :16:02.the single market. No one is thinking that that is even our
:16:03. > :16:07.possibility, so why are you saying that would be part of your
:16:08. > :16:17.negotiation stance? It is not going to happen. But it is in the best
:16:18. > :16:21.interest of wheels. But if it is unrealistic, why are you pursuing a?
:16:22. > :16:29.Some would say that the deep two macro is going to access to the
:16:30. > :16:34.market because that is possible. I am not seeing a clear path being
:16:35. > :16:37.indicated by the UK Government or by the Welsh Government. What Plaid
:16:38. > :16:43.Cymru has done is set out a clear set of criteria as to what we should
:16:44. > :16:50.do to proceed as soft Brexit option. Carwyn Jones and the others in the
:16:51. > :16:54.Assembly voted with the Tories and Ukip for a hard Brexit position. Our
:16:55. > :16:57.argument is that that is better than the against the best interests of
:16:58. > :17:04.this country in terms of the economy and jobs. Our economy is already
:17:05. > :17:10.weakened by the system that we are in already. We get 10% less than
:17:11. > :17:19.other parts of the UK. We can take further steps to weaken our economy.
:17:20. > :17:24.Read need to put steps in place to be the real success that we know we
:17:25. > :17:31.can be. Picture have voter at home listening to your statement, you
:17:32. > :17:36.believe Carwyn Jones is getting it wrong, not strengthening the Welsh
:17:37. > :17:39.economy, but in the next bet you're supporting his government in terms
:17:40. > :17:45.of the budget plans. The core issue of any governing administration. How
:17:46. > :17:49.do people make sense of that? I wonder at this point people want a
:17:50. > :17:54.constitutional crisis in the Assembly whether government can get
:17:55. > :17:58.the budget through. We are trying to be responsible opposition. We
:17:59. > :18:03.secured secured the biggest deal of any opposition party since
:18:04. > :18:07.devolution that focuses on our key priorities that benefit people
:18:08. > :18:11.throughout the country. We are taking responsibility very
:18:12. > :18:15.seriously. We are continuing to oppose the government, particularly
:18:16. > :18:19.on Brexit, scrutinising the decisions and lack of action and
:18:20. > :18:24.holding them to account. I think we have the best of both worlds by
:18:25. > :18:30.taking this oppositional approach which is responsible and careful,
:18:31. > :18:36.but effective opposition. Going back to my viewer at home, our data see
:18:37. > :18:41.Plaid Cymru as an official opposition, or a party that wants to
:18:42. > :18:47.see itself in opposition terms, or a party that is, in effect, in a kind
:18:48. > :18:53.of unofficial coalition? I say that because if you are in a position of
:18:54. > :18:58.supporting a party's spending plans, traditionally, maybe this is a
:18:59. > :19:03.different battle than Westminster, but traditionally he would be seen
:19:04. > :19:07.to be very closely allied to that party if you are following back
:19:08. > :19:12.course. You seem to be wanting to have it both ways. I would like to
:19:13. > :19:17.see our political tradition more in line with the European level rather
:19:18. > :19:21.than the Westminster level. What we are doing is perhaps a different
:19:22. > :19:25.approach to what you're used to sing in Westminster are admittedly, but
:19:26. > :19:28.we are holding the government to account and we can't just leave
:19:29. > :19:33.their job to the far right and the right, we need to take a responsible
:19:34. > :19:37.position in doing that. At the same time we are using the opportunities
:19:38. > :19:41.that we have got in a hung parliament situation to win games
:19:42. > :19:56.around our programme of opposition, which we are very pleased
:19:57. > :20:00.with our. It is full of great ideas to turn this country around and we
:20:01. > :20:03.can't afford to wait another five years before putting that plan into
:20:04. > :20:06.operation. We are going to use every opportunity we can to win real gains
:20:07. > :20:08.for people in our community. Leanne, thank you very much. We had the
:20:09. > :20:12.trust in our politicians Nathan Hart democratic institutions is at a low
:20:13. > :20:17.ebb, that came out in the referendum campaign. Can we trust those elected
:20:18. > :20:22.to serve our best interests? Journalist Martin Williams has spent
:20:23. > :20:26.the last year investigating the financial interests of politicians
:20:27. > :20:27.to see if there is any conflict with the Parliamentary duties. This is
:20:28. > :20:39.his personal take. These days it is common to hear
:20:40. > :20:43.people say that politicians are all in it for themselves. There is a
:20:44. > :20:48.perception that MPs are greedy or even corrupt, but are we right to be
:20:49. > :20:52.so suspicious? At the moment the rules allow politicians to take
:20:53. > :20:57.lucrative second jobs. Instead of serving the communities full times,
:20:58. > :21:02.many slip quietly to work for banks and even businesses. But don't
:21:03. > :21:06.worry, they tell us, financial interests will corrupt democracy
:21:07. > :21:09.because this system is transparent. They say they are open and honest
:21:10. > :21:13.about their moneymaking affairs and if we have a problem with that we
:21:14. > :21:17.can just put them out of the next election. Simple. But even when they
:21:18. > :21:20.do have to declare their financial interests does anyone in Parliament
:21:21. > :21:26.checked this to make sure they are telling the truth? Not really. There
:21:27. > :21:30.is an official register of interests which is published online, but it is
:21:31. > :21:35.not properly audited. Not only that it is published in such an out of
:21:36. > :21:40.date way that it is impossible for data analysts to scrutinising
:21:41. > :21:43.properly. So it is hardly surprising that when I investigated all this I
:21:44. > :21:48.discovered hundreds of jobs that had never been declared, some of them
:21:49. > :21:53.aren't controversial, but others have the potential to distort
:21:54. > :21:58.politics and distort democracy. Parliament is not taking it
:21:59. > :22:02.seriously, this problem. What should be done? Clearly there will always
:22:03. > :22:06.be some politician to do things we don't like, but Parliament's
:22:07. > :22:09.pathetic transparency is nothing more than an embarrassment. It
:22:10. > :22:14.doesn't matter what your politics are, it doesn't matter what your
:22:15. > :22:18.views are on MPs who have second jobs, the very least we should be
:22:19. > :22:21.entitled to a system that is transparent and honest so we can
:22:22. > :22:25.hold people to account and find out what is really going on. At the
:22:26. > :22:31.moment, Parliament is denying us that right.
:22:32. > :22:42.That was Martin Williams with some strong opinions. Let's get some more
:22:43. > :22:47.opinions. He is Jenny Willet, former Lib Dem MP, a member of the
:22:48. > :22:51.Parliamentary standards authority, and Laura McAllister from Cardiff
:22:52. > :22:56.University. Laura, the main charge there is that there is pathetic
:22:57. > :23:00.transparency, is that a charge that sticks? I don't agree. I think
:23:01. > :23:06.things have improved immeasurably since the MPs expenses scandal. In
:23:07. > :23:11.fairness to politicians beyond Westminster, things were always
:23:12. > :23:15.better in Wales. The work of the remuneration board has improved
:23:16. > :23:19.things considerably. I think there is a level of transparency over
:23:20. > :23:25.things like declarations of business interests. And around expenses
:23:26. > :23:30.claims. I don't recognise all of that, though I can see where Martin
:23:31. > :23:33.is coming from in terms of the improvements that still need to be
:23:34. > :23:40.made, certainly in Westminster. It doesn't reflect the behaviour of
:23:41. > :23:47.politicians, certainly not in Wales. Jenny, for you, where have the main
:23:48. > :23:51.improvements being? The fact that all the pay and the expenses and
:23:52. > :23:56.business costs associated with Members of Parliament, the fact that
:23:57. > :24:01.this dealt with separately and the public and trust that it is being
:24:02. > :24:06.overseen by an independent body, that helps give the bit of
:24:07. > :24:11.confidence that MPs are not able to twist the system in any way, which
:24:12. > :24:15.means that you can have faith that it is being handled properly. His
:24:16. > :24:19.main point was that it was often in the form that you couldn't access
:24:20. > :24:23.easily, in the form that you needed some expert skills to drill down
:24:24. > :24:28.into the detail. Is that the case? That is the second jobs, the
:24:29. > :24:32.register of interests that all MPs have to comply with. In terms of the
:24:33. > :24:36.expenses and the business costs, that is done in a way that is easy
:24:37. > :24:42.to access. On the business interests, there are issues with how
:24:43. > :24:45.easily accessible that is. If you don't register an interest that you
:24:46. > :24:51.have, that is a serious offence and you will get in a lot of trouble as
:24:52. > :24:54.a member of Parliament. I can't comment on his particular
:24:55. > :24:58.allegations, but they are very seriously taken and you would be in
:24:59. > :25:02.a lot of trouble if you didn't register your interests. I am not an
:25:03. > :25:06.apologist for badly behaved Leticia because there are some in every
:25:07. > :25:12.institution, but you also have to be fair to people here. Politicians do
:25:13. > :25:15.have very difficult job. They need some protection, as well.
:25:16. > :25:21.Accusations could come from any quarter and some of them are
:25:22. > :25:25.unfounded. Not all of them, but some are. There needs to be some
:25:26. > :25:34.protection for politician to aren't misbehaving. Just the main
:25:35. > :25:39.differences between the Westminster context and the Wales context in
:25:40. > :25:46.Cardiff Bay. What are they? The obvious one is this size of the two
:25:47. > :25:51.institutions. We only have 60 AMs in Wales, so the activities are very
:25:52. > :25:55.visible. In fairness to them I think we were ahead of the game in Wales
:25:56. > :26:00.in terms of introducing greater transparency around expenses claims
:26:01. > :26:05.and so on. I think all of this goes down to a kind of perception that
:26:06. > :26:09.the public as of politicians. My experience of politicians is that
:26:10. > :26:12.there will always be some rogue politicians in every institution,
:26:13. > :26:16.but by and large I think most politicians are in it for the right
:26:17. > :26:28.reasons. They are there to serve the public and to the best they can. We
:26:29. > :26:30.do have issues over quality of politicians and diversity of types
:26:31. > :26:32.of politicians, but, that said, most politicians are therefore honourable
:26:33. > :26:35.reasons, I think. People frequently talk about the fact that people have
:26:36. > :26:43.less trusts in political institutions these days. During the
:26:44. > :26:48.referendum, there seemed to be a bigger kick back against the system.
:26:49. > :26:54.Lots of people thought that was to do with projecting patterns of
:26:55. > :26:57.political support. It is interesting that you can see patterns of
:26:58. > :27:03.changing behaviour across the world at the moment. If you look at the
:27:04. > :27:07.rise of Donald Trump in America, the rise of you, the results in the
:27:08. > :27:11.referendum you can see a pattern of people wanting to kick back against
:27:12. > :27:15.what is seen as the political establishment. In some ways that is
:27:16. > :27:21.quite healthy. Making sure that the establishment can take itself too
:27:22. > :27:26.seriously and just assumed that people are going to both of them
:27:27. > :27:30.that is very healthy. Where I have some slight concerns as if it is
:27:31. > :27:33.based on a feeling that you can't trust people and you can't rely on
:27:34. > :27:42.the institutions because that is quite damaging. It is really
:27:43. > :27:44.important that we have a transparency in our political
:27:45. > :27:49.structures so that people feel that they can trust. They can kick off
:27:50. > :27:53.against the establishment and vote for the ever they want, but they are
:27:54. > :27:57.doing it now and they can trust that the system is clean and that people
:27:58. > :28:02.are not in it for themselves. I think that is really important. What
:28:03. > :28:06.is your reading of the changing patterns of buildings we have seen
:28:07. > :28:15.in recent years, and does it reflect a clear disconnect between the
:28:16. > :28:20.establishment politics as we have known it, and voters who are
:28:21. > :28:24.disgruntled about lots of things, the economy, the quality-of-life and
:28:25. > :28:28.all the rest of it. What is your reading of that? I don't think you
:28:29. > :28:33.can read too much into the individual turnouts that we have had
:28:34. > :28:37.in referenda and elections. For me it will stun into a very basic issue
:28:38. > :28:40.of trust. Trust has to be reciprocal. I don't think
:28:41. > :28:44.politicians trust the public enough to give them the quality of
:28:45. > :28:49.information that allows them to make decisions. We saw that in the EU
:28:50. > :28:54.referendum. It was an appalling campaign on both sides in terms of
:28:55. > :28:57.quality and integrity of information. You can argue whether
:28:58. > :29:03.the result reflected that or whether it was just an outcome of a whole
:29:04. > :29:07.series of events that led to this dislocation between the public on
:29:08. > :29:11.what the leaders were telling them. You can't have trust on one side
:29:12. > :29:15.without reciprocal trust on the other. I think that would require a
:29:16. > :29:19.real culture change in the way that politicians go out there and talk to
:29:20. > :29:25.people. People said to be half to the EU referendum, people who voted
:29:26. > :29:30.Bremain said they didn't know anybody who voted Leave. I am
:29:31. > :29:34.shocked by that because most of us plenty of people that were going to
:29:35. > :29:39.vote Leave and they were not the people resented by the way some
:29:40. > :29:43.politicians talk to them. Thank you for coming in. That is all we have
:29:44. > :29:50.time for tonight. If you want to get in touch you can e-mail us, or
:29:51. > :29:55.follow us on social media. The discussion continues, you can get
:29:56. > :29:58.the #walesreport. Good night.