:00:08. > :00:13.Tonight in a new season of the Wales report: the National Assembly will
:00:14. > :00:17.not have a formal say in the start of the Brexit process. So, how will
:00:18. > :00:23.a Welsh interest to be safeguarded in the years to come? We will be
:00:24. > :00:26.hearing card bay talking to Carwyn Jones and asking for his vision for
:00:27. > :00:38.Wales outside the European Union. Stay with us.
:00:39. > :00:47.Good evening. And welcome back to the Welsh Report. This place, the
:00:48. > :00:52.National Assembly for Wales will not have a formal say in the start of
:00:53. > :00:57.the Brexit process. The UK Supreme Court has decided that that is a
:00:58. > :01:00.matter for both houses of parliament at Westminster. There is no legal
:01:01. > :01:07.requirement to get the approval from Cardiff or Edinburgh or Belfast.
:01:08. > :01:11.This week, Welsh Labour, Plaid Cymru, the Lib Dems, launched her
:01:12. > :01:16.own White Paper on Brexit. They are calling for full, unfettered access
:01:17. > :01:20.to the single market. How realistic is that? In, we will ask Carwyn
:01:21. > :01:26.Jones for his vision of Wales outside the EU. Don't forget, you
:01:27. > :01:32.can join in the debate on social media. The hashtag is the Wales
:01:33. > :01:36.report. First, let us look at the next steps in this rather tricky
:01:37. > :01:42.process. Who needs to go to the theatre when you have the ongoing
:01:43. > :01:46.drama of Brexit? On Monday, the First Minister and leader of Plaid
:01:47. > :01:52.Cymru took centre stage with a white Paper setting out the Welsh Brexit
:01:53. > :01:55.plan. At the heart of this plan is the importance of full and
:01:56. > :02:01.unfettered access to the single market for our businesses and our
:02:02. > :02:07.economy. 24 hours later, a ruling from the Supreme Court and MPs from
:02:08. > :02:11.Westminster will have a vote on triggering Article 50 to leave the
:02:12. > :02:15.EU. But this place will not be consulted. The court unanimously
:02:16. > :02:23.rules that UK ministers are not legally compelled to consult the
:02:24. > :02:26.devolved legislatures for triggering Article 50. So no officials say for
:02:27. > :02:32.the Assembly on the triggering Brexit. And they plan at odds with
:02:33. > :02:34.the Prime Minister's. Theresa May made it clear last week that
:02:35. > :02:40.membership of the single market is off the agenda. It will be White
:02:41. > :02:47.Paper have any effect on the Brexit battle ahead? We have structures in
:02:48. > :02:53.place to listen, but whether or not politically that will result in and
:02:54. > :02:57.out, that takes seriously the requirements that Wales and Scotland
:02:58. > :03:01.have put forward around remaining in the single market, I think there is
:03:02. > :03:07.some doubt to that. And there are those who say the First Minister is
:03:08. > :03:11.not facing up to the reality of post-Brexit Wales. I don't think
:03:12. > :03:14.Carwyn Jones would have ever taken any notice of the Leave campaign
:03:15. > :03:19.even though their constituencies voted to do so. They could have
:03:20. > :03:23.reached out and bought a consensus. In fact, in Carwyn Jones's opening
:03:24. > :03:29.paragraph, you said we've tried to table of leave and remain opinion on
:03:30. > :03:33.board. I know precious few Leave campaign as he has bothered to
:03:34. > :03:37.engage with. What next in this unfolding drama? Is the First
:03:38. > :03:51.Minister's voice so far offstage it cannot be heard? The First Minister
:03:52. > :03:55.is with me now. For lots of people, the Supreme Court verdict was a big
:03:56. > :03:59.victory for Parliamentary democracy at Westminster. But not such good
:04:00. > :04:04.news for people in Cardiff and in Edinburgh and Belfast. How do you
:04:05. > :04:08.see it? The keywords where we are not legally compelled to be
:04:09. > :04:12.consulted. The Constitution, we are. They depends on what the bill says.
:04:13. > :04:20.To be clear, there will be a vote in the Assembly on Article 50 members
:04:21. > :04:25.will their views. But we know from the Supreme Court judgment that we
:04:26. > :04:29.have some clarity in terms of what is legally expected and what is not,
:04:30. > :04:33.but constitutionally, that's a different matter. If you are taking
:04:34. > :04:37.a brutal of view, the votes could go either way in the Assembly, but
:04:38. > :04:43.there's no obligation for ministers at Westminster to take any notice.
:04:44. > :04:47.Politically, there is. The UK is a precarious position. I've warned
:04:48. > :04:55.against the UK the EU and its potential collapse. The process and
:04:56. > :05:00.deal itself must have the widest possible support across the UK.
:05:01. > :05:05.Ignore the Celtic nations is to me, a recipe for this unity in years to
:05:06. > :05:11.come. I don't want to see that. You must be disappointed the Supreme
:05:12. > :05:13.Court said, as you just quoted, that there was no legal requirement,
:05:14. > :05:18.because lots of people are hoping that condition would be part of the
:05:19. > :05:25.ruling. When you heard that, were you disappointed? What the Supreme
:05:26. > :05:28.Court did was say, look, external relations, foreign relations are a
:05:29. > :05:33.matter for the UK Government. So there's no requirement to console
:05:34. > :05:38.devolved legislatures. But if the bill itself does impinge on the
:05:39. > :05:42.rights and responsibilities of the devolved assemblies, that's a
:05:43. > :05:45.different matter. We need to see what it says. Regardless, there will
:05:46. > :05:51.be a vote in the Assembly, personally, we have to take into
:05:52. > :05:55.account the way people voted in Wales. I do not want to delay what
:05:56. > :05:58.is going to happen, which is that the UK will leave the EU, but it's
:05:59. > :06:06.important the process is done in such a way that is the least harmful
:06:07. > :06:11.to Wales and Britain. So, you are saying you did not find the ruling
:06:12. > :06:15.than expected, but were you disappointed? Yes. From our
:06:16. > :06:21.perspective we took the view that were the UK and Parliament wanting
:06:22. > :06:24.to change the law, then it affects Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
:06:25. > :06:31.and the devolved responsibilities we have amended our consent. If the
:06:32. > :06:35.bill is detailed and clearly impinges upon the rights of the
:06:36. > :06:39.people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, then the view may
:06:40. > :06:44.change. But until we see the bill, we will have to wait and see what
:06:45. > :06:50.journey we take. What do you make of the tone coming out of Westminster
:06:51. > :06:55.on this? It is allied to a message that says, this is a matter for the
:06:56. > :07:00.UK Parliament? It is not a matter, this process, for Wales and
:07:01. > :07:05.Edinburgh and Belfast. That is the message repeated all the time. You
:07:06. > :07:10.can talk in positive ways about getting the Welsh voice heard, but
:07:11. > :07:13.if that's the message from there, it's not encouraging. Rider that the
:07:14. > :07:18.UK Government want to go into negotiations with the EU. Is not
:07:19. > :07:20.what I start from, I want to get to a position where we can agree common
:07:21. > :07:25.terms of reference and a common strategy. That will help the
:07:26. > :07:32.Government in London. Ultimately, when the final deal is agreed, it
:07:33. > :07:36.doesn't need to get support from across the UK. Farming and
:07:37. > :07:43.fisheries, for examples. UK doesn't exist as far as farming of a shift
:07:44. > :07:46.-- fishes are concerned. We can't have the UK negotiating a settlement
:07:47. > :07:51.on those things where they are acting as the English Government. So
:07:52. > :07:54.there is a role for the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government
:07:55. > :07:59.and the Northern Ireland executive in terms of framing the future for
:08:00. > :08:03.those areas. There is no UK or UK role in the future either. You took
:08:04. > :08:07.of a vote in the National Assembly on the beginning of this process, we
:08:08. > :08:12.know at Westminster that Labour is saying he does not want to be seen
:08:13. > :08:15.to be blocking Article 50 because it recognises the referendum result.
:08:16. > :08:19.Can I ask what you will descend your colleagues here in Cardiff about how
:08:20. > :08:23.they should be voting on the triggering of Article 50? I will say
:08:24. > :08:26.they can't block the process all look to overturn the referendum
:08:27. > :08:35.result. There's no going back from that. But we produced a white Paper
:08:36. > :08:39.this week and it gave ideas as to what the way forward should be. The
:08:40. > :08:43.response we have to that sometimes is, you fight in the campaign. It is
:08:44. > :08:47.not, it is the lever to keep fighting that, it is done and
:08:48. > :08:52.dusted. We need to move on from that. The debate is now about how we
:08:53. > :08:59.leave not if. That debate has enormous consequences. If it goes
:09:00. > :09:02.right, it's manageable. If it is messed up, the consequences for the
:09:03. > :09:07.Welsh economy for many years will be disastrous. What you say to those
:09:08. > :09:12.who say the White Paper was unrealistic? To talk about full,
:09:13. > :09:16.unfettered access to the single market. Nonmembership, access. You
:09:17. > :09:23.know that comes at a price on the price is freedom of movement. Watch
:09:24. > :09:29.your calculation? I noticed the Prime Minister said she wanted the
:09:30. > :09:36.fullest possible accents. -- access. There is compromise needed, but for
:09:37. > :09:40.me, what we have put forward is a system of freedom of movement that
:09:41. > :09:44.is tied to people having a job. So instead of a general right to move
:09:45. > :09:48.anywhere within the area of the single market, people can move if
:09:49. > :09:51.they have a job. If they lose it, a certain amount of time is allowed
:09:52. > :09:57.for looking for another and I think that is rational to approach it this
:09:58. > :10:00.way. If we don't have the system, I know when they are concerned about
:10:01. > :10:04.the current system, we moved to a new one. But I think that's much
:10:05. > :10:11.fairer. You listen to people like Angela Merkel and other European
:10:12. > :10:15.leaders, they all say the same thing. You can't really qualify for
:10:16. > :10:20.the system of freedom of movement. If you want full, unfettered access,
:10:21. > :10:23.as you do, you have to accept freedom of movement as they define
:10:24. > :10:32.it. It is not your qualified version, but their full version. It
:10:33. > :10:38.is not representative of the system is applied across the EU. Well, what
:10:39. > :10:42.you have to remember with freedom of movement is when the East European
:10:43. > :10:46.countries joined the EU, the UK had a different system to other
:10:47. > :10:50.countries. We imposed a moratorium. So what the rules say and the way
:10:51. > :10:55.they are interpreted two different things. The Norwegian system is
:10:56. > :11:00.perfectly sensible. It is not our system, and it does tie the ability
:11:01. > :11:07.of somebody to live in a country whether they'll be having a job and
:11:08. > :11:11.that is within the rules, we think. The UK interpreted differently than
:11:12. > :11:14.other countries. Even if it is within the rules, the Prime
:11:15. > :11:21.Minister's has said we don't want anyone else's model. She's used the
:11:22. > :11:25.Norway model as an example in the past. Freedom of movement to work.
:11:26. > :11:33.The UK can't have everything. There has to be compromise. There is a lot
:11:34. > :11:36.of posturing and outlining negotiating positions, but you have
:11:37. > :11:41.two choices to me, either sell in the single market, which is crucial
:11:42. > :11:45.to the Welsh economy, or you sell to control immigration we can't do
:11:46. > :11:50.that. There will be an open border with the EU. The irony is, the UK
:11:51. > :11:54.cannot control immigration without the support of the European Union
:11:55. > :12:00.because the open border with Ireland. There's lots of issues
:12:01. > :12:03.there that are not dealt with. Given the sensitivity around immigration
:12:04. > :12:07.which we saw with the campaign, and you reflect that and we've tried to
:12:08. > :12:10.explain your thinking on freedom of movement, do you think that even the
:12:11. > :12:14.qualified system you are talking about today is one I Welsh voters
:12:15. > :12:20.would find acceptable given the way they voters strongly last year? With
:12:21. > :12:24.the difficulty we have is we know what people don't want. They want
:12:25. > :12:30.out of the EU, that is decided. Wooden or people actually want. --
:12:31. > :12:35.we don't know what people actually want. Some people do want
:12:36. > :12:40.immigration, we can't win them over, their minds are made up. Some are
:12:41. > :12:42.convinced there are hundreds of thousands of people living in well
:12:43. > :12:52.some other countries, in fact, there are 70 9000. Bearing mind, one of
:12:53. > :12:55.the interveners in the Supreme Court case was representing 2 million UK
:12:56. > :13:00.citizens living elsewhere in Europe. Do they lose their access to health
:13:01. > :13:04.care? Even fundamental issues such as driving lessons, will they still
:13:05. > :13:07.be valid, or car insurance still be valid? Of course, they should be,
:13:08. > :13:10.these will take negotiation and agreement rather than being taken
:13:11. > :13:15.for granted as they have been because of EU membership.
:13:16. > :13:23.There is a blunt chin to be asked about, to what extent does the Welsh
:13:24. > :13:29.voice, your voice, can be properly respected? If you get a position
:13:30. > :13:33.where the UK Government has come to a view on the Brexit plan, you don't
:13:34. > :13:38.have to like it, maybe the leaders in Northern Ireland and Scotland do
:13:39. > :13:44.not like it, ultimately, in this framework, you have no power to
:13:45. > :13:48.change that position - does that cause you concern? I think the UK
:13:49. > :13:52.would be very precarious if that happens. There would be the danger
:13:53. > :13:56.of a Scottish referendum. We are already seeing difficulty in
:13:57. > :14:00.Northern Ireland. The UK is not in the strong disposition here. For me,
:14:01. > :14:04.the final outcome is, the UK gets a deal which is acceptable to all
:14:05. > :14:08.countries in the UK, and we can then move forward. If we look at a
:14:09. > :14:11.free-trade agreement, some people say we will have one with New
:14:12. > :14:17.Zealand. On the face of it, it is a matter for the UK Government. But if
:14:18. > :14:21.as a result of that agreement we saw New Zealand lamb being allowed into
:14:22. > :14:24.the UK with no quota and no tariff, that destroys the Welsh farming
:14:25. > :14:28.industry. I don't think that is a sensible way to look at politics in
:14:29. > :14:32.the future. We must get away from this idea that all power comes from
:14:33. > :14:37.Whitehall and Westminster. We share power across the UK. The Canadians
:14:38. > :14:40.do it perfectly well. And the most lasting settlement for the good of
:14:41. > :14:45.the UK would be the one which commands the most support across the
:14:46. > :14:49.nations of the UK. And the dominant nation being England, and the debate
:14:50. > :14:54.country as structured, whether people like it or not, lots of it is
:14:55. > :14:56.to do with English Conservative MPs and a Conservative governance at
:14:57. > :15:01.west Leinster. They are dominating the debate by force of numbers. The
:15:02. > :15:06.problem is that the debate has not been about what is good for the UK,
:15:07. > :15:11.but about reconciling tensions in the Conservative Party. And they are
:15:12. > :15:15.not the same thing. This is not an attack on anybody, this white paper
:15:16. > :15:19.is something to put on the table, to look through so that people have an
:15:20. > :15:23.idea of what we are thinking. It gets criticised by people who have
:15:24. > :15:26.no clue about what they want to do. If it had been a cross-party
:15:27. > :15:31.document, it might have got less criticism? Let's examine what the
:15:32. > :15:35.Conservatives did. When the white paper was about to be published, the
:15:36. > :15:39.leader of the Welsh Conservatives sent out a tweet saying, latest
:15:40. > :15:44.edition of the Beano. That's not very grown-up. And no time has he
:15:45. > :15:49.said he wanted to be part of a process to work out what the journey
:15:50. > :15:53.should be for Wales. Every time he stands up in the chamber and he's
:15:54. > :15:57.asked, what is your view, it is basically, whatever Theresa May
:15:58. > :16:00.says. We expect better than that from one of the major opposition
:16:01. > :16:04.parties. I have absolutely no idea what the Welsh Conservative view is
:16:05. > :16:10.on what should happen after Brexit. So I would suggest, to the
:16:11. > :16:15.Conservatives, why don't you get consensus within your own party
:16:16. > :16:18.before you start lecturing others? We have a Conservative leader in
:16:19. > :16:22.Wales who successfully read the mood in the referendum in a way that
:16:23. > :16:25.other party leaders didn't? He also said that he would be First
:16:26. > :16:29.Minister. He did not read that very well. Yes, he was on the winning
:16:30. > :16:35.side in the referendum, on the mood inside in the election. -- on the
:16:36. > :16:39.losing side. I do not detect that there is a surge towards the
:16:40. > :16:44.Conservatives in Wales as a result of. On this, they did not agree with
:16:45. > :16:48.us, that is the nature of referendums, they cut across party
:16:49. > :16:53.lines. Final point on this, and it is to do with the way that you
:16:54. > :16:56.manage I suppose the personal relationship with the Prime Minister
:16:57. > :17:01.and others at Westminster. URL Labour politician, you are a Labour
:17:02. > :17:05.politician in power, which is a rare thing in the UK these days, and
:17:06. > :17:09.you're dealing with a Conservative government. There must be tensions,
:17:10. > :17:13.and that might be a disadvantage to you in terms of how you can interact
:17:14. > :17:19.with them, is that fair? I don't think as in any personal tensions.
:17:20. > :17:23.The degree we are a long way apart of course. Theresa May is difficult
:17:24. > :17:29.to read, she does not give a lot away. I have had open conversations
:17:30. > :17:34.with David Davies. We can talk to each other. Politics obliquely is
:17:35. > :17:40.about people debating with each other. But privately, there have to
:17:41. > :17:44.be ways that people can sit down and talk to each other and find a way
:17:45. > :17:48.forward and that is the way we see it. This is not a party political
:17:49. > :17:52.battle, it is making sure that Wales and Britain prospers in the future.
:17:53. > :17:55.If we can find common ground in order for that to happen, I think
:17:56. > :18:01.that is exactly what people would expect us to do. That brings me to
:18:02. > :18:05.the next thing. It has been a very big week in terms of the governments
:18:06. > :18:08.of Wales. The Wales Bill has completed its Parliamentary stages.
:18:09. > :18:12.Forget we have lined up three expert witnesses if you like to give us
:18:13. > :18:22.their perspectives on what's going on.
:18:23. > :18:28.Well, I think it takes us forward much more to the kind of settlement
:18:29. > :18:32.they have in Scotland, where you have a broad range of legislative
:18:33. > :18:34.powers and also some taxation responsibility. And I think it is a
:18:35. > :18:46.good mix. In principle there are two sorts of
:18:47. > :18:51.things you could do. You could either cap the top rate as a revenue
:18:52. > :18:56.raising measures in the long run, and maybe encourage some business in
:18:57. > :19:01.Wales, or you could raise the basic rate if you wanted to, for revenue
:19:02. > :19:06.purposes. Those are the two strategies. Raising the top rates of
:19:07. > :19:12.income tax as a revenue raising measures doesn't make sense. And the
:19:13. > :19:18.reason is, we've got this huge open border with England, people move
:19:19. > :19:21.once every ten years on average, people work in England and live in
:19:22. > :19:29.Wales or the other way round, and it's just so easy to move across the
:19:30. > :19:33.border. There are some really important constitutional potential
:19:34. > :19:37.lying within the bill, particularly around alterations to the size of
:19:38. > :19:41.the Assembly, the number of constituencies, the electron system,
:19:42. > :19:50.the name, the age at which people are allowed to vote and so on. They
:19:51. > :19:52.may not seem exciting but we know that the National Assembly has
:19:53. > :19:56.serious capacity issues at the moment, assembling them has asked
:19:57. > :20:00.wretch in terms of their scrutiny. So this gives us an opportunity to
:20:01. > :20:05.at least look at that area of development. We know there needs to
:20:06. > :20:09.be a lot more done to make people will be Wales feel that having an
:20:10. > :20:13.institution is Cardiff is significant and makes a difference
:20:14. > :20:17.to their lives. Obviously, the success of government is how you use
:20:18. > :20:22.the powers that you have. And that would be the true test, whether the
:20:23. > :20:25.lives of the people of Wales were improved by these new powers. It
:20:26. > :20:37.will not improve things automatically.
:20:38. > :20:44.First Minister, is this Wales Bill a lasting settlement? No, is the
:20:45. > :20:50.simple answer. It does take us forward and there are things which I
:20:51. > :20:54.can welcome in it. For we were not treated in the same way as Scotland
:20:55. > :20:57.and there are still some issues which are outstanding in order to
:20:58. > :21:00.make the UK and Wales work better. Why were you not able to get into a
:21:01. > :21:05.position where the bill was in better shape? I think there is a
:21:06. > :21:09.limit to how much influence the Wales office has in the Welsh
:21:10. > :21:11.government. We met a lot of resistance from the Ministry of
:21:12. > :21:16.Justice, who did not seem to understand devolution at all. Other
:21:17. > :21:20.departments were fine. That is the nature of Whitehall. It is a step
:21:21. > :21:24.forward for Wales but it is far from being a lasting settlement. How can
:21:25. > :21:29.it be when there are so many issues outstanding, such as policing and
:21:30. > :21:32.legal jurisdiction? It is important that people realise how this changes
:21:33. > :21:38.things and how it might change their own lives. So how would you explain
:21:39. > :21:44.to people at home, what does this Wales Bill do in terms of changing
:21:45. > :21:47.life in Wales? It gives Welsh people control over this place as an
:21:48. > :21:50.institution, the way that it runs. If we look at areas like energy
:21:51. > :21:56.projects, where we will have to develop them to create jobs in
:21:57. > :22:01.Wales, to do with water, a very emotional issue in Wales, as we
:22:02. > :22:05.know. And other areas, for example, it will devolve a chunk of income
:22:06. > :22:09.tax. We are not looking to increase income tax in Wales, but it allows
:22:10. > :22:13.us to be able to borrow. Everyone else does it to pay for big
:22:14. > :22:17.projects. This gives us the opportunity to do that and to fund
:22:18. > :22:20.transport schemes, for example, which we know will make a real
:22:21. > :22:26.difference to people is lives. When you think about tax, very emotive
:22:27. > :22:30.subject again, income tax, and those powers, granting those powers is
:22:31. > :22:35.clearly very significant, it can allow you to do some rather dramatic
:22:36. > :22:39.things, just a penny on the basic rate will give you about ?180
:22:40. > :22:43.million to play with, which could be useful for the Health Service and
:22:44. > :22:48.other things - how likely are Welsh voters to see you starting to use
:22:49. > :22:51.those powers? 0 chance of that. We made a pledge in our manifesto that
:22:52. > :22:57.we would not alter the rate of income tax and any other bands in
:22:58. > :23:00.Wales during the course of this Assembly. Income tax devolution
:23:01. > :23:04.gives us the opportunity to create a revenue stream to borrow. Borrow
:23:05. > :23:08.prudently, not which you cannot afford to pay back. But it means we
:23:09. > :23:14.can fund transport scheme which could not be funded in Wales because
:23:15. > :23:17.they were in Wales, whereas England, Scotland and Northern Ireland could
:23:18. > :23:22.do it. But there's absolutely no chance of taxes being increased in
:23:23. > :23:26.Wales. The point about having a big open border with England,
:23:27. > :23:31.competitiveness, and looking not just on basic rate but at higher tax
:23:32. > :23:35.rates as well as both to you buy that argument? Yes. I think he is
:23:36. > :23:41.spot on about this. In fact if you raise the higher rate, you do not
:23:42. > :23:45.raise much money. Proportionately we have fewer higher rate taxpayers in
:23:46. > :23:49.Wales. Because those are the people who are the most mobile anyway. To
:23:50. > :23:55.my mind, increasing taxes in Wales is not on the agenda during this
:23:56. > :23:57.period. What would you say to the person sitting at home may be
:23:58. > :24:02.feeling frustrated thinking, we've got the Welsh government, they're
:24:03. > :24:05.gaining more powers, they can spend on things they think they would like
:24:06. > :24:10.to spend more on, but they're not using the powers, to the point of
:24:11. > :24:14.having them? The ability to borrow, that's the initial thing for me. The
:24:15. > :24:17.fact that we can then borrow against the funding stream that we have from
:24:18. > :24:21.income tax in order to pay for transport projects which are needed
:24:22. > :24:31.in so many parts of Wales. Does we could not do otherwise. If we look
:24:32. > :24:35.at the M4 relief road in Newport, we could not do it at all if we could
:24:36. > :24:41.not borrow money. We need to have access to that kind of money. Every
:24:42. > :24:45.other government in the UK has that. What kind of borrowing are we
:24:46. > :24:49.talking about over and above the borrowing that we would have talked
:24:50. > :24:53.about maybe 12 months ago? There's a difference between what we can
:24:54. > :24:58.borrow and what we should borrow. We have to service any debt. We are not
:24:59. > :25:04.Kulasekara we are going to borrow because we can. We have to take if
:25:05. > :25:09.you on what we think is needed and also what is affordable. And what is
:25:10. > :25:16.that? We are talking hundreds of millions, rather than billions. To
:25:17. > :25:20.be clear, this is not all the money to fund year-on-year revenue, this
:25:21. > :25:29.is about oil and money for specific projects which have a one-off cost.
:25:30. > :25:33.-- this is about borrowing money. But in your own mind, what is an
:25:34. > :25:38.acceptable limit on that kind of borrowing, half a billion, 700
:25:39. > :25:42.million, 800 million? Depends on the terms of borrowing. At the moment it
:25:43. > :25:46.is a good time to borrow money with interest rates so low. But it may
:25:47. > :25:50.not always be that way. We have to make and assessments, what effect
:25:51. > :25:55.would a possible increase in rates have on our borrowing, it is not
:25:56. > :26:00.possible to put an absolute figure on it. Less than 1 billion? Yes. Who
:26:01. > :26:06.are not going to borrow to the limit. That would not be prudent.
:26:07. > :26:10.But over half a million? Depends what the project is. If it is a
:26:11. > :26:15.worthwhile and affordable project, then yes, we would consider funding
:26:16. > :26:18.such a project. Practical things to do with the place that we are in
:26:19. > :26:22.today, the size of the Assembly, for example. Would you use powers to
:26:23. > :26:27.change the membership? I think that is a highly sensitive and
:26:28. > :26:32.controversial area. If we look at it from one angle, there are 60 members
:26:33. > :26:36.here, Northern Ireland has 109, even though they have half the
:26:37. > :26:40.population. Scotland has 129 members, even though it is not twice
:26:41. > :26:43.the size of Wales. But let's face it, saying we need more politicians
:26:44. > :26:49.is not the most popular stance to take. I think there is a lot of
:26:50. > :26:53.explanation which would have to be done if we were going to increase
:26:54. > :26:57.the numbers here to 80, for example. There is no doubt that the workload
:26:58. > :27:03.of Assembly members is huge compared to people in other assemblies. But
:27:04. > :27:08.that is not going to win the public over necessarily. You think it is a
:27:09. > :27:13.case worth making? I can see it from one angle in terms of the workload
:27:14. > :27:16.for members. But I am sensitive to public opinion and the last thing I
:27:17. > :27:20.want to do is to take a position as lead when we get the powers. We do
:27:21. > :27:23.not want to say in the first few weeks, we're going to increase the
:27:24. > :27:28.number of politicians straightaway. That would make us look ridiculous
:27:29. > :27:32.in the eyes of the people of Wales. A lot of work has to be done here to
:27:33. > :27:37.illustrate the people have ears and the works and whether they think
:27:38. > :27:42.actually, given that we might see a cut in the number of Welsh MPs, a
:27:43. > :27:47.tiny voice in Westminster, whether there needs to be an increase in the
:27:48. > :27:51.Assembly here in Cardiff. Would you be comfortable going into the next
:27:52. > :27:56.Assembly elections with the same size of chamber here? The strange
:27:57. > :28:00.thing is, when you're in government, you don't notice it in the same way.
:28:01. > :28:04.Of you're a backbencher, and you're on two or three committees are
:28:05. > :28:08.weak... I get a lot of support, as First Minister, it is the
:28:09. > :28:12.backbenchers who feel it the most. -- two or three committees a week.
:28:13. > :28:20.Are there enough members here to hold the government to account? They
:28:21. > :28:26.do it, but it is a struggle. So in five years' time? This is a part of
:28:27. > :28:30.the plate which we have to have... You clearly do not think that the
:28:31. > :28:36.system as it is is going to be as efficient in five years' time? It
:28:37. > :28:40.works, but it is under strain, that is the way I would put it. Will you
:28:41. > :28:44.be making the case for increasing the size of the chamber? What I
:28:45. > :28:48.would say is, we need more politicians. It needs to be part of
:28:49. > :28:52.a package around how the Assembly operates, and also we may end up
:28:53. > :28:57.with fewer MPs. I am not making the link. I would rather we kept the
:28:58. > :29:01.same representation at worse Mr. But these are the issues which will have
:29:02. > :29:09.to be debated over the next few years.
:29:10. > :29:17.I don't think that would do us a great deal of good. The number of
:29:18. > :29:22.constituencies? That is even more difficult. Even if you can get an
:29:23. > :29:25.agreement to having 80 members, you have to have all elected. All
:29:26. > :29:29.parties are different views on how to operate that. It is a tricky
:29:30. > :29:35.issue and would take a great of diplomacy. That's an understatement.
:29:36. > :29:39.The number of constituents come you've mentioned the voting system.
:29:40. > :29:44.On a personal level, can you foresee circumstances in which you will be
:29:45. > :29:47.making an argument for a different kind of voting system, allied to
:29:48. > :29:55.other changes around the Assembly in years to come? There were pamphlets
:29:56. > :30:00.years ago suggesting we should of 80 members elected first past the post.
:30:01. > :30:04.That was the case I made at that point. It will not be on that basis
:30:05. > :30:10.and I accept that. But it is a question of what sort of system we
:30:11. > :30:13.use, what the mix is, do we carry on with the regional members, these are
:30:14. > :30:18.all issues we need to look at carefully before the final decision.
:30:19. > :30:24.The voting age, lowering it. Would you like to take action? Yes, 16. It
:30:25. > :30:29.was 60 in Scotland in the referendum. If that is OK, is
:30:30. > :30:34.difficult to argue against the bingo cane every other election, so my
:30:35. > :30:38.point of view is that 16 in this day and age is the proper age people can
:30:39. > :30:46.vote. My daughter will be delighted to hear me say that. I'm sure she
:30:47. > :30:50.will. The answer to what you might changes I'm not sure or we will
:30:51. > :30:56.think about that. Give the impression you are giving that
:30:57. > :30:59.you're getting more powers, but are either reluctant to use them or will
:31:00. > :31:04.not use them because they are too risky politically. Is that the
:31:05. > :31:09.message people will get? We do not jump headlong into change for the
:31:10. > :31:14.sake of it. If you look at income tax, for me, the most important
:31:15. > :31:20.thing is we are setting up a new body, and it must be set up. It has
:31:21. > :31:23.to add Minister not just income tax, that transaction tax which will take
:31:24. > :31:27.over from stamp duty. We need to ensure it is up and running first
:31:28. > :31:33.bit for we make sure there were no glitches or problems. Family 's
:31:34. > :31:37.Tavern before we look at what happens after. Let us get the new
:31:38. > :31:43.system up and running and the debate is beyond the next election. A final
:31:44. > :31:47.point about national perceptions of the way this place works, not just
:31:48. > :31:51.the Assembly, but the Government. After all the debate about the Wales
:31:52. > :31:55.Bill, is there a healthier perception of the way that the
:31:56. > :31:58.Government here works now after the debate? Because the debate got
:31:59. > :32:04.bogged down in all kinds of issues which you are involved in and you
:32:05. > :32:09.know, at Westminster and here. What have that done for perceptions of
:32:10. > :32:14.the way the Government here is perceived? The first draft though
:32:15. > :32:17.they produced in Westminster was so awful that no one could support it.
:32:18. > :32:24.It overturned the referendum results. That's what they were
:32:25. > :32:27.trying to do in Westminster, overturned the clearly expressed a
:32:28. > :32:31.view of the Welsh people in 2011 that they wanted all the laws in
:32:32. > :32:35.effect in Wales to be made here in Wales. They try to overturn that and
:32:36. > :32:40.we have to go back to the drawing board and produce the better. Good,
:32:41. > :32:45.but not so good that it can't be improved upon, as we say. That's
:32:46. > :32:51.what we have to look out for. People in Wales proud to have
:32:52. > :32:56.representation and a Government, all the opinion polls show us that the
:32:57. > :33:01.case. We've moved beyond should Wales have a voice? Two how should
:33:02. > :33:05.that voice be exercised? First Minister, thank you. That was Carwyn
:33:06. > :33:09.Jones, talking to me a little earlier. That is all for tonight. If
:33:10. > :33:14.you would like to get in that about the programme or anything else,
:33:15. > :33:20.e-mail us. Or follow us on social media. The debate continues. The
:33:21. > :33:24.hashtag is the Welsh report. We return next week. Good night.