:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight on The Wales Report, I'm here in Westminster
:00:00. > :00:09.In the week that Brexit has dominated proceedings here,
:00:10. > :00:12.we'll be looking at what the latest twists and turns mean for Wales.
:00:13. > :00:21.Stay with us for a special The Wales Report.
:00:22. > :00:28.And fake news, who and what can you believe?
:00:29. > :00:32.Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.
:00:33. > :00:38.We're here in Westminster, where this week the Brexit process
:00:39. > :00:40.has taken another step forward, passing its first hurdle
:00:41. > :00:43.Remember, you can join in the discussion tonight -
:00:44. > :00:46.So, the government's timetable for leaving
:00:47. > :00:48.the EU appears on course, but what impact is Brexit having
:00:49. > :00:56.The most optimistic production is the deal will take at least two
:00:57. > :00:58.years and for the pessimists, it will take a lot longer than that.
:00:59. > :01:00.I'll be speaking to the chair of the Welsh Affairs Select
:01:01. > :01:04.But first, Welsh businesses are keeping a close eye on the progress
:01:05. > :01:08.Wales exports more to the EU than the UK average,
:01:09. > :01:11.with two thirds of goods that leave the country making
:01:12. > :01:26.Wales is very reliant on trade with the EU.
:01:27. > :01:31.We see a new ports around 56% of all exports go to the continent
:01:32. > :01:35.and in Swansea and Cardiff, it's 60 and 61% respectfully.
:01:36. > :01:41.So in terms of the number of goods and services that these
:01:42. > :01:43.cities are sending abroad, actually the EU is a really,
:01:44. > :01:47.It's about 20% of what we do as a company.
:01:48. > :01:54.Historically, we've been moving goods backwards
:01:55. > :01:56.and forwards to Europe over the last 30, 40 years.
:01:57. > :02:06.Some businesses are telling us that they are finding
:02:07. > :02:11.that their European customers are already starting to look
:02:12. > :02:18.That is going to have a small effect now, but if that
:02:19. > :02:20.continues after Brexit, then we potentially
:02:21. > :02:28.Initially, we were surprised and nervous about the result
:02:29. > :02:30.of the referendum and battened down the hatches, awaiting
:02:31. > :02:33.what we consider to be economic gloom in front of us.
:02:34. > :02:35.However, we have since employed more people, purchased more vehicles
:02:36. > :02:37.to deal with the growing demands of our customers, following
:02:38. > :02:41.It appears there is an improved export market in the UK
:02:42. > :02:51.and our customers' order books appear to be full.
:02:52. > :02:55.I don't think anyone is expecting the first day after Brexit
:02:56. > :02:59.for everything to suddenly change, but it's going to be a gradual thing
:03:00. > :03:01.where businesses won't be growing because they will choose not
:03:02. > :03:07.to export because they don't have an easy way to doing it.
:03:08. > :03:12.It depends what deal comes out of it with Brexit as to what happens
:03:13. > :03:14.with the borders and what trade is available after that time.
:03:15. > :03:20.Those goods will still need to move, exports from the UK will,
:03:21. > :03:26.It means our vehicles will sit on borders perhaps
:03:27. > :03:29.longer going into Europe, but I don't see that
:03:30. > :03:32.If we don't get a good trade deal with the EU,
:03:33. > :03:35.that does raise a lot of questions that has implications for jobs that
:03:36. > :03:38.are available in those places and also the amount of money
:03:39. > :03:40.that is available in people's pockets in terms
:03:41. > :03:51.David Davies, the chair of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee,
:03:52. > :03:54.we've heard in that little tape, there's a little bit
:03:55. > :03:58.Is that how you would characterize where Brexit is going at the moment?
:03:59. > :04:00.I wouldn't characterize Brexit as uncertainty at all.
:04:01. > :04:02.I'm absolutely certain we are going to be leaving,
:04:03. > :04:05.we're going to be triggering Article 50 at the end of March,
:04:06. > :04:08.going to be out about two years' later and I'm also pretty certain
:04:09. > :04:11.we're going to have a deal with the European Union.
:04:12. > :04:18.But even if we don't, I'm absolutely certain we're
:04:19. > :04:21.going to be carrying on trading with them, just as we did before
:04:22. > :04:23.the single market came in place in the early 90s.
:04:24. > :04:28.It was great to see that hauler there.
:04:29. > :04:32.I was driving lorries and vans into Europe
:04:33. > :04:35.before the single market came in and I remember we had a bit
:04:36. > :04:41.Getting stuck in customs on the way into France and having to check
:04:42. > :04:43.all your goods and bits on the way in?
:04:44. > :04:46.No, bit of paperwork on the way in, that's all it was.
:04:47. > :04:49.But I don't even think we'll be back to that.
:04:50. > :04:51.What I can absolutely say is that we were trading before
:04:52. > :04:53.we had the single market with the European countries,
:04:54. > :04:56.we were doing in the 90s, I was driving vans and lorries
:04:57. > :04:58.from the early 1990s to the mid-1990s,
:04:59. > :05:00.before and after the single market came in.
:05:01. > :05:03.I don't think anybody doubts that we'll still be trading with Europe,
:05:04. > :05:09.it's just the terms under which we'll be trading.
:05:10. > :05:14.I guess it's how much worse it will be than it will be now.
:05:15. > :05:17.I heard someone on your video they're saying, 60% of exports
:05:18. > :05:19.will go into the EU, 40% will go to places
:05:20. > :05:22.with whom we don't have any kind of trade deal,
:05:23. > :05:25.And yet 40% is a pretty high proportion.
:05:26. > :05:28.The point is, of course we're going to carry on trading.
:05:29. > :05:30.People were saying before the referendum, it'll be a disaster,
:05:31. > :05:33.the economy will grind to a halt just with the vote.
:05:34. > :05:35.That certainly hasn't happened and it's not going to happen.
:05:36. > :05:38.Just as we currently trade with countries outside of the EU,
:05:39. > :05:40.in fact our biggest trading partner is the United States,
:05:41. > :05:43.we trade more with them more than with any country
:05:44. > :05:47.But at a Wales level, as I'm sure you know,
:05:48. > :05:50.it's actually Germany is our largest export partner, followed by France,
:05:51. > :05:54.So actually, for Wales, we do turn towards Europe.
:05:55. > :05:56.And we also import the huge amount from Germany, particularly cars,
:05:57. > :05:58.but all sorts of other goods as well.
:05:59. > :06:00.The Germans, I've been over to Germany since Brexit,
:06:01. > :06:03.met with members of Parliament and met with business represented it
:06:04. > :06:06.and they are desperate to ensure that there is a trade deal as well.
:06:07. > :06:10.So it's in everyone's interest to come up with some sort of a deal.
:06:11. > :06:13.What you think of what Theresa May has said, that if we can't reach
:06:14. > :06:17.an agreement with the rest of the EU about it, then we'll just walk away,
:06:18. > :06:20.leave you to your rules, and then what we do is we change our economy,
:06:21. > :06:22.be more competitive, lower tax and attract business.
:06:23. > :06:27.First of all, I agree entirely with what she's saying.
:06:28. > :06:29.I hope we'll be looking to change our economy any ways.
:06:30. > :06:31.I mean, we want to become competitive, we want
:06:32. > :06:37.Well, yes, I'm in favour of lower taxes provided
:06:38. > :06:40.we can balance the books, that's definitely a good thing.
:06:41. > :06:43.If that's what we need to do to bring the boat in,
:06:44. > :06:45.we've already been cutting taxes, we're already a much lower tax
:06:46. > :06:47.economy than many other countries in Europe.
:06:48. > :06:49.And I'm sure that's going to continue.
:06:50. > :06:51.But what Theresa May is also saying is really,
:06:52. > :06:55.We can't go into a negotiation saying, if we don't get X, Y and Z,
:06:56. > :06:59.That's no way to conduct a negotiation.
:07:00. > :07:02.What we have here, under those circumstances, is Theresa May,
:07:03. > :07:05.an unelected Prime Minister, nobody elected her as Prime
:07:06. > :07:07.Minister, fundamentally changing the economy of the United Kingdom
:07:08. > :07:09.without any mandate to do so, all under the guise
:07:10. > :07:14.First of all, Theresa May was elected, she was elected
:07:15. > :07:16.as a member of Parliament, she's been chosen by a majority
:07:17. > :07:21.If we want a presidential system, we can have one.
:07:22. > :07:23.We can have a presidential system if people want
:07:24. > :07:29.We have a parliamentary system and it's served us very well
:07:30. > :07:33.But what's her mandate to cut taxes across the board?
:07:34. > :07:36.She's clearly got a mandate to pull us out of Europe and hopefully
:07:37. > :07:39.the Lords are going to recognise that and asked to do it at some
:07:40. > :07:43.point and actually come on board with that and play a role in shaping
:07:44. > :07:48.We're going to get the best agreement possible if everyone,
:07:49. > :07:50.and that means Peter Hain and the House of Lords
:07:51. > :07:52.and all the rest of them, if for absolutely clear
:07:53. > :07:54.that they recognise that people voted for Brexit
:07:55. > :07:57.and that we are coming out of the European Union.
:07:58. > :08:01.The European Union and the other nations in Europe need to understand
:08:02. > :08:06.that if we don't get a deal, if they don't want to come
:08:07. > :08:08.out with a trade deal, we're still going.
:08:09. > :08:10.Once they realise that, the impetus will be on them
:08:11. > :08:13.to give us a good deal, a deal that works for all sides.
:08:14. > :08:19.We don't want to cut ourselves off from Europe, we need
:08:20. > :08:23.We want to carry on trade, have a good relationship
:08:24. > :08:27.We want to continue to welcome people who are contributing to our
:08:28. > :08:30.We've got to stop this ludicrous scare story,
:08:31. > :08:34.that's never been put out by anyone in Brexit, that we're going to throw
:08:35. > :08:36.out European Union citizens, because obviously we are not.
:08:37. > :08:39.We've got to get people who were campaigning to remain
:08:40. > :08:42.in the European Union to realise that the people have spoken,
:08:43. > :08:45.just as I had to accept the Welsh Assembly 20 years ago,
:08:46. > :08:47.people are going to have to accept leaving the European union.
:08:48. > :08:53.We know in the House of Lords, what's your view
:08:54. > :09:00.about what the Lords ought to be doing here now?
:09:01. > :09:03.We know they'll be challenging on a lot of what the Government
:09:04. > :09:06.My view is fundamentally they shouldn't do that.
:09:07. > :09:07.They should understand that this goes...
:09:08. > :09:11.Yes, this is a very short bill that gives the Government,
:09:12. > :09:13.led by the Prime Minister, the power to negotiate the best
:09:14. > :09:21.We don't want to go into negotiations with the European Union
:09:22. > :09:23.thinking, if we deny them this or that, then they have
:09:24. > :09:26.to change their minds and come back in with us.
:09:27. > :09:28.They have to understand that we are coming out
:09:29. > :09:31.Of course, we want to work with them.
:09:32. > :09:35.The Lords need to come on board and recognise
:09:36. > :09:38.Does it call into question the validity of the second chamber
:09:39. > :09:42.I am your classic traditional Conservative.
:09:43. > :09:44.I absolutely support the monarchy, I think the Queen is wonderful.
:09:45. > :09:46.I'm a true blue Conservative and I've never really
:09:47. > :09:52.But I am starting to think to myself, I looked around
:09:53. > :09:54.the rest the United Kingdom, there's no second chamber
:09:55. > :09:56.in Scotland, there's no second chamber in Wales...
:09:57. > :09:59.I think the Lords can play a useful role in revising difficult
:10:00. > :10:01.and complicated legislation, but this is very simple.
:10:02. > :10:03.We are giving the Prime Minister the power to pull out
:10:04. > :10:09.of the European Union, which is what the people want.
:10:10. > :10:11.If the Lords want to start messing around with that,
:10:12. > :10:15.I think it's not just going to be the far left that questions
:10:16. > :10:17.questions their existence, it's going to be people
:10:18. > :10:22.David Davis, thank you very much for your time.
:10:23. > :10:25.The peers discussion of the Brexit bill this week has brought the role
:10:26. > :10:27.of the House of Lords and the accountability of its
:10:28. > :10:34.As the second chamber in the UK Parliament,
:10:35. > :10:36.it helps make and shape new laws, scrutinises the work of Government
:10:37. > :10:40.There are about 800 members, although not all of these regularly
:10:41. > :10:45.Most are life peers put forward by the Prime Minister.
:10:46. > :10:47.So, does their scrutiny of the Government over Brexit show
:10:48. > :10:50.the need for calm heads to pour over legislation without the pressures
:10:51. > :10:52.of elections, or does it highlight the democratic deficit
:10:53. > :10:55.that the will of the people can be challenged by unelected
:10:56. > :10:59.I'm joined now by the Plaid Cymru peer, Lord Dafydd Wigley,
:11:00. > :11:01.the Liberal Democrat peer Baroness Jenny Randerson and
:11:02. > :11:05.Thanks to all three of you for coming in.
:11:06. > :11:08.Jenny Randerson - I guess, over the last week, what we've seen
:11:09. > :11:10.is a different nature in the debate over Brexit in the Lords,
:11:11. > :11:16.Is that because it's an unelected chamber?
:11:17. > :11:19.I think it's because the power of the party is much less strong
:11:20. > :11:28.People are much more likely to be expressing their honest and full
:11:29. > :11:32.opinions, and also because, of course, peers don't have
:11:33. > :11:35.to follow the local vote on this issue, or feel any obligation
:11:36. > :11:43.to follow the local vote on this issue.
:11:44. > :11:45.They feel an obligation to do what is our role.
:11:46. > :11:48.Our role is to challenge the government and to ask them
:11:49. > :11:54.to think again when we believe, and to challenge the Commons and ask
:11:55. > :11:56.them to think again, when we believe they've
:11:57. > :12:09.But we are in the situation we are in, and we're going to work
:12:10. > :12:12.Dafydd Wigley, you've been campaigning almost
:12:13. > :12:14.all of your political life to abolish an unelected House
:12:15. > :12:17.of Lords, but here you are making a virtue of the fact that,
:12:18. > :12:20.because you are not accountable to the voters, you can
:12:21. > :12:28.The point is, if I was elected, if we were all elected,
:12:29. > :12:32.we would have a much stronger stance in order to stand up on the issues
:12:33. > :12:35.At the moment, many colleagues are feeling slightly blunted
:12:36. > :12:42.I want to see a totally elected second chamber.
:12:43. > :12:45.I believe in, a London context, there is a need for a second
:12:46. > :12:48.chamber, but on an issue such as this, where we have very
:12:49. > :12:49.strongly-held convictions, I think it's also right
:12:50. > :12:53.that we don't sell out on what we believe, and what we've
:12:54. > :12:57.But you would be saying, as an MP, about Brexit
:12:58. > :13:03.Absolutely, and a few of my colleagues in the House of Commons,
:13:04. > :13:06.Plaid Cymru MPs, voted against this bill.
:13:07. > :13:09.That was because this is a very hard Brexit indeed.
:13:10. > :13:12.If it had been a compromise, allowing a single market access,
:13:13. > :13:15.then quite possibly we would have said,
:13:16. > :13:19.But this is going to do so much damage to Wales.
:13:20. > :13:23.Lord Peter Hain, you've said in the past that you will be voting
:13:24. > :13:26.quite often against Brexit because you will be voting
:13:27. > :13:29.with your conscience rather than reflecting the views
:13:30. > :13:33.Isn't that the merit of having a second chamber, unelected,
:13:34. > :13:35.where you don't have to worry about the will of the
:13:36. > :13:40.Well, I have also always believed in an elected second chamber.
:13:41. > :13:42.I'd settle for 80% elected and 20% crossbenchers
:13:43. > :13:50.When Ed Miliband, my party leader, asked me to come to the Lords,
:13:51. > :13:53.I said, "I don't believe in the place as it is.
:13:54. > :13:56.He said, "That's why I want you to go there."
:13:57. > :13:59.But on why I'm doing what I'm doing, two thirds of Labour
:14:00. > :14:06.voters voted to remain, and of the many constituencies,
:14:07. > :14:11.Labour-held constituencies, like my old one in Neath that voted
:14:12. > :14:14.to leave, a majority of Labour voters,
:14:15. > :14:22.Though they are the best evidence we've got.
:14:23. > :14:25.In the end, for me, if you say, what is my mandate,
:14:26. > :14:29.if you want to have a mandate of any kind, I feel I'm reflecting
:14:30. > :14:33.the Labour Party's values of justice, equality
:14:34. > :14:35.and internationalism, and that is a matter of conscience.
:14:36. > :14:38.In an elected House of Lords, which you want to see,
:14:39. > :14:41.you wouldn't be able to be free to vote according
:14:42. > :14:45.You'd be far more closely tied in with the will of the people.
:14:46. > :14:47.You say you want to represent the whole of Wales.
:14:48. > :14:51.Yes, I understand that, but this is such a historic decision.
:14:52. > :14:53.This, for me, is one of the biggest decisions
:14:54. > :14:57.I've taken as a politician, about the whole future
:14:58. > :15:01.This is a dangerous world at the moment, without getting
:15:02. > :15:03.into all the arguments and re-arguing about the referendum,
:15:04. > :15:07.this is such a seismic issue for me as a politician.
:15:08. > :15:13.It goes to my very core of what I believe in.
:15:14. > :15:15.And I'm not going to vote against something...
:15:16. > :15:20.I'm not going to vote a way that I don't believe in.
:15:21. > :15:22.When I was elected in 1974, I stood against my party's
:15:23. > :15:27.When the vote came in 1975 in the referendum,
:15:28. > :15:33.Yes, I told my collectors at home where I stood,
:15:34. > :15:37.I had people coming to me and saying, "We can't vote
:15:38. > :15:39.for you if you don't vote for capital punishment."
:15:40. > :15:41.I said, "Then vote for somebody else."
:15:42. > :15:44.The fact is, you have to stand on your party programme, yes,
:15:45. > :15:49.All three of you are devolutionists, who believe in devolving
:15:50. > :15:55.Yet what we have in the UK at the moment is an elected
:15:56. > :16:04.assembly in Cardiff Bay, in Edinburgh and in Belfast,
:16:05. > :16:07.with really no powers in terms of deciding how Brexit goes
:16:08. > :16:09.from here on, and an unelected chamber here in Parliament
:16:10. > :16:12.That doesn't seem to be right, does it?
:16:13. > :16:16.Well, that tension isn't entirely right, of course,
:16:17. > :16:19.but you don't put it right by saying, oh, the House of Commons
:16:20. > :16:22.should just have a blank cheque to do what they want.
:16:23. > :16:26.What we should be doing is ensuring - and I'm sure this will be a matter
:16:27. > :16:29.for debate in the committee stage of the bill next week -
:16:30. > :16:32.we want the Welsh government, the Welsh Assembly,
:16:33. > :16:41.I, personally, would want the Welsh government to have proper channels
:16:42. > :16:46.of communication with the UK Government, and it's essential
:16:47. > :16:50.that the UK Government listens to what the Welsh Assembly says.
:16:51. > :16:54.They really cannot afford to ignore what the elected representatives
:16:55. > :16:59.of the people of Wales are saying on this issue.
:17:00. > :17:02.One of the points you were making about the fact that you vote
:17:03. > :17:09.Is there a danger, by doing that, you are a Labour peer,
:17:10. > :17:13.are you undermining the efforts of your party trying to stand up
:17:14. > :17:16.as a party who are not standing in the way of Brexit,
:17:17. > :17:20.not ignoring the will of the British people, there is a danger that
:17:21. > :17:23.you could be undermining those efforts, isn't there?
:17:24. > :17:26.Well, I'm undermining the efforts of my party leader,
:17:27. > :17:28.because I flatly disagree with him on Europe.
:17:29. > :17:32.I think the majority of Labour voters and the majority of party
:17:33. > :17:38.There's a lot of support in the Lords Labour group...
:17:39. > :17:43.Those Labour MPs - voters may be one thing,
:17:44. > :17:45.but they represent constituencies which did vote to leave.
:17:46. > :17:49.There is an issue of a democratic accountability.
:17:50. > :17:55.And that's why, in the end, the Commons will triumph over the Lords.
:17:56. > :17:58.But I think we will win some important amendments,
:17:59. > :18:06.We'll win the border issue, an open border
:18:07. > :18:11.Why is the Tory government making such a fuss about this?
:18:12. > :18:14.Why are they having a go at the House of Lords?
:18:15. > :18:16.It's the first time in the history of Parliament,
:18:17. > :18:19.that a Tory government has not had an automatic majority,
:18:20. > :18:20.because Tony Blair abolished They are in the same
:18:21. > :18:24.position now as all Labour governments have always been,
:18:25. > :18:28.and that's why they're getting... Over the next couple of weeks,
:18:29. > :18:33.what are you trying to achieve? What would you like to see
:18:34. > :18:36.at the end of this Brexit At the end of the day,
:18:37. > :18:39.I have to reluctantly accept that we are likely to leave
:18:40. > :18:42.the European Union, but we have to make sure that for the Welsh
:18:43. > :18:46.manufacturing industry, for the farmers and for everyone
:18:47. > :18:49.else, that there is a total free That is at the core
:18:50. > :18:57.of the Welsh White Paper, which Carwyn Jones, Leanne Wood
:18:58. > :19:00.and with Liberal Democrat support That will be a good blueprint
:19:01. > :19:03.for the UK Government, Well, I shall, along
:19:04. > :19:09.with my colleagues, Lib Dem peers, we will be voting in order to ensure
:19:10. > :19:12.that we stay in the single market if possible, and we will also,
:19:13. > :19:18.above all, the voting not to ignore the referendum result,
:19:19. > :19:21.but to ensure that, at the end of the negotiations,
:19:22. > :19:26.the people have a voice. Because this started
:19:27. > :19:28.with a vote by the people, and it must end with a vote
:19:29. > :19:31.by the people. People voted to leave
:19:32. > :19:36.the European Union, but they didn't vote for anything else,
:19:37. > :19:38.because they were never At the end of this process,
:19:39. > :19:42.when it's clear what the alternative is, I think there should
:19:43. > :19:44.be a referendum. The people should
:19:45. > :19:46.have the final say. Thank you all very much
:19:47. > :19:54.for coming in this evening. Now, in politics, separating
:19:55. > :19:56.fact from fiction has always been something
:19:57. > :19:59.of a challenge. But with the growing
:20:00. > :20:01.phenomenon of "fake news" ? that's false information
:20:02. > :20:03.published under the guise of being authentic news -
:20:04. > :20:05.there are fears that democracy itself could be
:20:06. > :20:08.undermined, as well as Last month, the Culture,
:20:09. > :20:12.Media and Sport Committee here in
:20:13. > :20:14.Westminster said it would investigate concerns
:20:15. > :20:16.about the public being swayed So, is our increasing use
:20:17. > :20:22.of social media as a news source leaving us
:20:23. > :20:26.vulnerable to hoaxers? Joining me to discuss
:20:27. > :20:28.this are Kevin Maguire, associate editor of the Mirror,
:20:29. > :20:31.and Elena Cresci, who works But first, here's Elena's handy
:20:32. > :20:38.guide on how to spot fake news. It's an accusation that being banded
:20:39. > :20:43.about a lot these days. And I think it's exciting
:20:44. > :21:01.for all sorts of reasons. But we also have to recognise
:21:02. > :21:04.that it has its drawbacks as our news feeds tend
:21:05. > :21:07.to reflect our own views back at us and stories from reputable sources
:21:08. > :21:09.are throwing together with... So, how can we find a foothold
:21:10. > :21:14.in this new world of fake news, Here's my five step guide on how
:21:15. > :21:18.to sort the facts from falsehoods, clarity from click bait and polemics
:21:19. > :21:26.from otter poppycock. If you're unsure whether an online
:21:27. > :21:29.story is fake or real, there are a couple of things
:21:30. > :21:32.you can do. If you're willing to get
:21:33. > :21:34.a little bit technical. When a new story pops up
:21:35. > :21:37.on your feed, check the name If it looks a bit strange,
:21:38. > :21:41.try googling the story and if it doesn't show up anywhere else,
:21:42. > :21:45.that's when you got a problem. Also, be aware that some fake
:21:46. > :21:47.news sites have names similar to real ones,
:21:48. > :21:58.or even have a similar logo. First, is the story so outrageous
:21:59. > :22:02.that you can't believe it? Second, is a story so outrageous
:22:03. > :22:09.that you desperately Because of pesky human psychology,
:22:10. > :22:20.prone to wanting our So if a story matches perfectly
:22:21. > :22:24.with your already held opinions, you should probably take a moment
:22:25. > :22:34.to check it's actually true. Always expect a new source to be
:22:35. > :22:37.open with you about where There are perfectly valid reasons
:22:38. > :22:47.for protecting a source's anonymity, but if a new site is cagey about
:22:48. > :22:50.who or where they are coming from, Does the story to announce
:22:51. > :23:00.the elite, the left, the right, Opinion pieces aside,
:23:01. > :23:05.good reporting should be specific. Who was making a claim
:23:06. > :23:08.about what and why? If it's asking you to make vague
:23:09. > :23:11.assumptions about a group of people just because,
:23:12. > :23:24.it's probably not worth your time. This is probably the most
:23:25. > :23:28.important step in my guide. Make a point of checking
:23:29. > :23:31.in with news sites that do not If you make a conscious effort
:23:32. > :23:35.to seek out views you disagree with, you will be much better equipped
:23:36. > :23:38.to spot when a fake news story is trying to play up
:23:39. > :23:41.to your existing biases. The Internet and social media has
:23:42. > :23:43.given us more access to news It's an amazing and
:23:44. > :23:47.revolutionary tool that define But, like any tool, it can be used
:23:48. > :23:53.for both good and bad things. And, as consumers and producers
:23:54. > :23:56.of news, we can learn to use it We've heard your piece there,
:23:57. > :24:06.looking at fake news, How worried should we be
:24:07. > :24:09.about its existence? Well, there's been fake stuff
:24:10. > :24:14.on the Internet for as long as there has been an Internet,
:24:15. > :24:19.so I don't know, at this point, but it is concerning,
:24:20. > :24:21.looking at what's happened in the States, where it seems
:24:22. > :24:23.like fake news may have played But for me, even the term fake
:24:24. > :24:32.news is just not a great I've been doing verification
:24:33. > :24:40.for years now, which is why And when we saw a hoax,
:24:41. > :24:45.we'd call it a hoax. When we saw someone had lied,
:24:46. > :24:48.we'd say they lied, or they embellished,
:24:49. > :24:49.or something like this. I worry, by having named it fake
:24:50. > :24:54.news now, we have sort You see Donald Trump using it now,
:24:55. > :24:59."CNN, you're fake news. And I do worry a bit about that
:25:00. > :25:06.section of it, I think. Is it, as a red top hack, something
:25:07. > :25:10.which is an Internet phenomenon, or did it exist always,
:25:11. > :25:13.it's just that now we've got the Internet, it sort
:25:14. > :25:16.of exacerbates the problem? No, I think getting things wrong,
:25:17. > :25:20.fake news, call it lies, They've been around for ever,
:25:21. > :25:25.but it just spread so quickly now on the Internet,
:25:26. > :25:29.and what people might have matted down a pub they can now
:25:30. > :25:32.broadcast to the world. I thought your tips
:25:33. > :25:36.were very sensible. We can fight it with accuracy,
:25:37. > :25:49.with fact checking, calling it out, but in the mainstream media,
:25:50. > :25:51.whether you're TV, radio or newspapers, I think there's
:25:52. > :25:54.a greater onus on us now But isn't it a danger that everyone
:25:55. > :25:59.can be a journalist on social media? An article you write
:26:00. > :26:01.for the Mirror has almost the same level of accuracy,
:26:02. > :26:04.for somebody watching or reading at home, as an article written
:26:05. > :26:08.by somebody in their living room? People can publish and communicate
:26:09. > :26:15.on the net now, and I think I think people have embraced forms
:26:16. > :26:20.of communication we couldn't have However, the deliberate
:26:21. > :26:26.attempts of hoaxers, whether it's doctoring photographs
:26:27. > :26:29.or whether it is publishing lies, We saw it on both sides
:26:30. > :26:33.in the Brexit campaign in Britain. Calling out fake news
:26:34. > :26:41.and using that sort of element. Of course, we've always had this
:26:42. > :26:43.trouble in journalism You've got to be truthful
:26:44. > :26:47.all the time, and attempt to get to the truth,
:26:48. > :26:49.but the fact is you can't always get the truth,
:26:50. > :26:52.because you're not sure what it is. People aren't always
:26:53. > :26:53.straight with you. They won't talk to you,
:26:54. > :26:56.but you can be truthful. And if we can establish
:26:57. > :26:58.that we are truthful, we can begin to see off
:26:59. > :27:02.the fake news organisations. You will see studies that suggest
:27:03. > :27:08.only 5% of people in Wales read Is fake news worse than no news,
:27:09. > :27:13.when people aren't even aware I'm not sure, to be honest,
:27:14. > :27:20.because, here's the thing. When it comes to the Internet,
:27:21. > :27:24.the reason that fake news flourishes in the way that it does
:27:25. > :27:27.is because it's attractive to read. Unfortunately, with the way that
:27:28. > :27:29.some stories from Wales are framed, they are not framed
:27:30. > :27:31.in a particularly I think Wales is hilarious
:27:32. > :27:42.and very interesting. But I would rather people be able
:27:43. > :27:47.to trust what they are seeing in the newspapers and on TV,
:27:48. > :27:52.and that's why I agree with Kevin. The onus is on us as journalists
:27:53. > :27:58.to be doing this right. People are not going to want to read
:27:59. > :28:01.the news is they think that it's fake, and that's the real issue
:28:02. > :28:04.here with this. It sounds kind of ridiculous to say
:28:05. > :28:11.that, that the Internet can threaten press freedom,
:28:12. > :28:13.but when you have politicians who can just turn around at a story
:28:14. > :28:17.that may well be true and just dismiss it as fake news,
:28:18. > :28:19.and the public doesn't know what to believe,
:28:20. > :28:26.that's the real issue here. What about this issue
:28:27. > :28:28.of the news cycle now? With 24-hour news channels,
:28:29. > :28:35.it goes at 1 million miles an hour, so you can't have time to actually
:28:36. > :28:37.develop a story and go How much of a concern would that
:28:38. > :28:42.be, and how much does Rumours can be spread
:28:43. > :28:48.as fact when they're not. And the pressure is intense,
:28:49. > :28:50.because people want their news It's every minute of
:28:51. > :28:57.every hour in the day. And you've got to resist
:28:58. > :28:59.cutting the corners. Do not assert and say this is true
:29:00. > :29:03.when you don't know. Thank you both very much for your
:29:04. > :29:07.fake news input this evening. If you'd like to get in touch
:29:08. > :29:14.with us about what's been discussed tonight or anything
:29:15. > :29:15.else, email us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk,
:29:16. > :29:17.or follow us on social media ? where the
:29:18. > :29:19.discussion continues.