:00:00. > :00:09.The Brexit process will soon be under way, with a brand-new question
:00:10. > :00:11.mark over the future of the United Kingdom.
:00:12. > :00:13.Will Ukip have a role in Wales after Brexit?
:00:14. > :00:15.We speak to Assembly group leader Neil Hamilton.
:00:16. > :00:22.And we look at the very long road to local government
:00:23. > :00:24.reorganisation in Wales - will the latest
:00:25. > :00:40.Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.
:00:41. > :00:43.be formally under way, and, as Westminster gave
:00:44. > :00:45.its blessing to that, the Scottish government
:00:46. > :00:48.was demanding the right to hold a second referendum on independence.
:00:49. > :00:50.Lots of talk about Scotland and Northern Ireland
:00:51. > :00:53.and the future shape of the UK, but very little about how Wales
:00:54. > :00:59.Remember, you can have your say, join in the debate on Twitter.
:01:00. > :01:05.So, by the end of the month, the letter will be sent,
:01:06. > :01:07.and Article 50 will be triggered, starting the formal process of
:01:08. > :01:12.At the same time, we now have the prospect of a second
:01:13. > :01:22.The potential consequences of Brexit are becoming ever more apparent.
:01:23. > :01:28.Theresa May has two massive constitutional issues to deal with.
:01:29. > :01:35.On the one hand, the UK's withdrawal from the EU, and on the other hand,
:01:36. > :01:37.now the real potential of a second Scottish independence referendum and
:01:38. > :01:43.the possibility of Scotland leaving the UK. Now, already we know that
:01:44. > :01:47.Wales wasn't really featuring high up on their list of priorities for
:01:48. > :01:51.the UK Government, so now they've got this other massive issue to be
:01:52. > :01:55.dealing with, as I say, in terms of bandwidth, it leaves Wales in a more
:01:56. > :01:57.vulnerable position. So where does Wales fit into this
:01:58. > :01:59.constitutional jigsaw? The First Minister, Carwyn Jones,
:02:00. > :02:05.has insisted that the UK's nations are "stronger together",
:02:06. > :02:07.but Plaid Cymru says any move towards independence in Scotland
:02:08. > :02:18.needs to start a debate If the UK ceases to exist, we need
:02:19. > :02:23.to be thinking about what is best for Wales. It is time that we had a
:02:24. > :02:29.far-reaching national conversation about where we want to head as a
:02:30. > :02:32.nation. The people of Wales will ultimately decide on our
:02:33. > :02:36.constitutional future. But we cannot come to decisions about where we
:02:37. > :02:40.need to head unless we have the conversation. And I think what's
:02:41. > :02:44.happening in Scotland is a stark reminder for us that we can't just
:02:45. > :02:51.float as a nation. We have to be clear about where we are heading.
:02:52. > :02:53.And I look forward to having that conversation in the months and years
:02:54. > :02:57.ahead. And this is certainly a story that will run and run when the
:02:58. > :03:01.starting gun is fired with Article 50 being triggered at the end of the
:03:02. > :03:06.month. There is growing discussion about leaving without a deal, the no
:03:07. > :03:12.deal deal. If the UK leads without a deal, we
:03:13. > :03:16.talk about the UK crashing out of the EU, and this would have huge
:03:17. > :03:22.economic and political implications for the UK as a whole and also for
:03:23. > :03:25.Wales. So it would have huge trade implications, and we would see the
:03:26. > :03:32.imposition of tariffs, we would see customs checks with cost,
:03:33. > :03:33.inconvenience, time implications. As I say, for the UK as a whole and for
:03:34. > :03:37.Wales. Joining me to discuss all this
:03:38. > :03:40.is the Conservative MP and chair of the Welsh Affairs Select
:03:41. > :03:41.Committee David Davies. And the Labour AM and former
:03:42. > :03:49.MEP Eluned Morgan. Thank you for joining me. Just a
:03:50. > :03:53.start with you, what we've seen over the last couple of days is Brexit a
:03:54. > :03:58.step closer and that has led to Nicola Sturgeon saying, well, there
:03:59. > :04:02.will be another independence referendum in Scotland soon. Do we
:04:03. > :04:06.just accept in Wales we are an afterthought in all this? We're an
:04:07. > :04:11.afterthought. The fact is, Brexit will impact on Wales more than any
:04:12. > :04:16.other part of the UK, I think. Certainly financially will receive
:04:17. > :04:22.?680 million a year from the EU. And the fact is, 67% of our trade and
:04:23. > :04:33.goods goes to the EU. Those facts might not be in dispute, but a
:04:34. > :04:36.Westminster point of view, my point is, they will be looking at Scotland
:04:37. > :04:38.and thinking, that could lead to the break-up of the UK, they will be
:04:39. > :04:40.looking to Northern Ireland, questions over the relationship and
:04:41. > :04:45.the Borders. Even Nicola Sturgeon has said there is scope here for
:04:46. > :04:49.negotiation. If we went for a softer Brexit, one that meant we could have
:04:50. > :04:53.access in the single market, then there would be a reconsideration of
:04:54. > :04:57.that situation in Scotland. That's the situation we want for Wales. We
:04:58. > :05:02.want as close as possible a relationship with the single market.
:05:03. > :05:06.So it now depends on what Theresa May can negotiate but she has to
:05:07. > :05:11.understand so we're relying on Nicola Sturgeon getting the best
:05:12. > :05:14.deal for Scotland, and then the best deal for Wales? We have a common
:05:15. > :05:20.interest in that we both want to see as closer relationship as possible
:05:21. > :05:27.with the EU in of access to that single market. -- as close a
:05:28. > :05:30.relationship. So we could see Nicola Sturgeon saying we will hold the
:05:31. > :05:34.second referendum for independence and that might soften her approach
:05:35. > :05:39.to Brexit or make Brexit a bit softer. How would you respond to
:05:40. > :05:42.that? I think it's inevitable Nicola Sturgeon was always going to find
:05:43. > :05:46.another reason for calling a referendum, another one. She holds
:05:47. > :05:51.the principle that if you don't get the answer you want in one
:05:52. > :05:55.referendum, you hold another and another and another. I don't think
:05:56. > :05:58.it was a surprise to me or anyone else I know that she found another
:05:59. > :06:05.reason for doing it. As far as a close relationship with Europe is,
:06:06. > :06:08.we want a good relationship with the rest of the European Union and we
:06:09. > :06:13.want to sort out issues like those who have come over here, like my
:06:14. > :06:18.wife, for example, to make sure they can stay, to stop all this
:06:19. > :06:22.scaremongering. So all these things Nicola Sturgeon, these reasonable
:06:23. > :06:33.requests cheesemaking, are things we have signed up to anyway. Would
:06:34. > :06:41.Scotland leaving the EU be -- leaving the UK be paving way for
:06:42. > :06:44.Brexit? There was with going to be a second referendum, whether it was
:06:45. > :06:53.over Brexit or something else the government did that they didn't
:06:54. > :06:57.like, I don't think the two up. But my question to you is, would it be
:06:58. > :07:01.the price worth paying? I don't accept that the link between the
:07:02. > :07:04.two. There was going to be a second referendum regardless of what
:07:05. > :07:08.happened over Brexit. Even if Britain had voted to stay in the EU,
:07:09. > :07:12.Nicola Sturgeon would have found an excuse to have a second referendum,
:07:13. > :07:17.so there was always going to be won, and if she loses this, there will
:07:18. > :07:24.probably be a third and a fourth as well. So there was with going to be
:07:25. > :07:26.a possibility, not even a possibility, a certainty, a
:07:27. > :07:30.likelihood, of another referendum. And it is ironic that the arguments
:07:31. > :07:34.Nicola Sturgeon makes to stay in the EU are the very arguments she should
:07:35. > :07:38.be making for Scotland to stay within the union, but that is a
:07:39. > :07:44.decision for the Scots to make. We have to respect that, just as I hope
:07:45. > :07:48.Nicola Sturgeon respects the fact most people voted to leave the
:07:49. > :07:51.European Union. What we have been hearing from Theresa May and Philip
:07:52. > :07:56.Hammond about the negotiations with the rest of the EU, they have said,
:07:57. > :08:01.well, if we don't get a deal we are happy with, we will just leave. They
:08:02. > :08:04.will fall back on the well of trade organisation rules and return to a
:08:05. > :08:09.low tax, low regulation economy. What would you make of that if that
:08:10. > :08:14.were to happen? I think that would be catastrophic, not just the Wales
:08:15. > :08:18.but for Britain. We would have a change in the social model we have
:08:19. > :08:21.because you can't fund education and health the way we do at the moment
:08:22. > :08:28.unless you have a tax base from which you can tax. But they would be
:08:29. > :08:33.arguing we would attract more businesses and tax that way. Trade
:08:34. > :08:37.with the EU is crucial to our success, and however many trade
:08:38. > :08:40.deals we do with the rest of the world, the fact is, people trade
:08:41. > :08:44.within close props that -- proximity to each other. They are more
:08:45. > :08:47.comfortable that way and it makes more economic sense. So we can dream
:08:48. > :08:57.about signing up to trade agreement that may or may not come about, and
:08:58. > :09:01.don't forget, we export much more than we import, so it is other
:09:02. > :09:06.countries that will do well out of trade deals with Britain in future.
:09:07. > :09:11.Our key objectives should now be to make sure we get free and unfettered
:09:12. > :09:16.access to that EU market, because if we don't, there will be a price to
:09:17. > :09:18.pay in terms of jobs in Wales. Is there a danger here that by
:09:19. > :09:23.concentrating on what they would do in the event of not being happy with
:09:24. > :09:28.the negotiations, that Theresa May isn't allowing enough scope to have
:09:29. > :09:32.those kinds of discussions about what trade should look like with the
:09:33. > :09:36.rest of the EU after Brexit? I think the real danger here is that all of
:09:37. > :09:39.these voices offside, whether from Nicola Sturgeon or people in the
:09:40. > :09:44.Labour Party who don't like the result of this, saying, OK, we will
:09:45. > :09:49.have another vote in Parliament if we don't get the deal we want, but
:09:50. > :09:53.we need to go into these negotiations making it clear that if
:09:54. > :09:58.we don't get a trade deal, we will walk away and trade under the WTO
:09:59. > :10:04.rules. And frankly, I don't see anything wrong with a low tax, low
:10:05. > :10:08.regulation economy. But the trouble with that is, you have no mandate to
:10:09. > :10:12.implement it. You don't have a general election, which would need
:10:13. > :10:17.to happen to be able to press ahead with such a fundamental change in
:10:18. > :10:21.the UK's economy. I think people would be quite happy if we were able
:10:22. > :10:27.to reduce taxes, but we would still want to be able to deliver public
:10:28. > :10:31.services in the highway we do. And look at Wales. Shorter NHS waiting
:10:32. > :10:39.lists, better exam results. We are already delivering better results
:10:40. > :10:44.than under 18 years of Labour. But you are proposing to cut back? We
:10:45. > :10:49.are not proposing to cut back at all. If it attracts business in, it
:10:50. > :10:53.will increase the tax revenue we have, and I thought Labour was
:10:54. > :10:58.signed up to reducing red tape just as we are, so I am very surprised
:10:59. > :11:02.about that. If they want to go out and campaign on the basis of very
:11:03. > :11:07.high taxes and high regulation, that's up to them. What you think
:11:08. > :11:13.will be happening over the next few weeks? How this will play out? We
:11:14. > :11:16.want to keep environmental protection, social protection, but
:11:17. > :11:21.also, if you look at corporation tax, we would have come in under
:11:22. > :11:26.Ireland. We would have to reduce hours from 19% down to 12%, their
:11:27. > :11:31.level, which is 100 billion out of the economy. That's how much we
:11:32. > :11:35.spend on the NHS in this country. Let's get real. We are talking about
:11:36. > :11:40.a fundamental change in the way our society is run, and as you say,
:11:41. > :11:43.nobody has voted for that. Plenty more to talk about and plenty more
:11:44. > :11:46.time to talk about it for the moment. But right now, thank you for
:11:47. > :11:51.But right now, thank you for your company.
:11:52. > :11:54.The party which played a key role in the UK's decision
:11:55. > :11:57.Since winning seats in the Assembly elections last year,
:11:58. > :11:59.the group has made its mark, with disputes, resignations and
:12:00. > :12:04.So with Brexit another step closer, what next for Ukip in Wales?
:12:05. > :12:10.Earlier, I spoke to Ukip's Assembly group leader, Neil Hamilton.
:12:11. > :12:15.First of all, we have just seen Brexit will now be launched by the
:12:16. > :12:19.end of this month, and that almost immediately led to Nicola Sturgeon
:12:20. > :12:22.calling for a second independence referendum. Would you look at all
:12:23. > :12:28.the constitutional up the -- upheaval caused by Brexit, is that
:12:29. > :12:32.what you were anticipating? It is a game of gesture politics by Nicola
:12:33. > :12:35.Sturgeon. She knows Theresa May won't grant her a second referendum
:12:36. > :12:40.and she's just trying to back her into a corner. I would just call her
:12:41. > :12:44.bluff. Because I think the referendum vote would be more
:12:45. > :12:49.emphatic to remain part of the UK if there was a second one, particularly
:12:50. > :12:52.now we are going to leave the EU. Scotland does four times as much
:12:53. > :12:58.trade with England as it does with the rest of the EU. But would it be
:12:59. > :13:04.a price worth paying hypothetically if Scotland left the UK. Would it be
:13:05. > :13:09.a price worth paying for Brexit? That's a matter for the Scottish
:13:10. > :13:14.people. I'm in favour of maintaining the integrity of the UK! Indulge me
:13:15. > :13:19.for a moment. If that's what Scottish people want, then so be it,
:13:20. > :13:22.but I don't believe there is a majority for independence in
:13:23. > :13:26.Scotland and I think there's an even bigger majority against independence
:13:27. > :13:30.in Scotland once we've left the EU than previously. I'm going to ask
:13:31. > :13:36.you to indulge me in another hypothetical situation if you may.
:13:37. > :13:40.What Scotland the UK and then Northern Ireland, they left the UK
:13:41. > :13:47.as well? Where would that leave Wales politically? Well, there's
:13:48. > :13:52.even less demanding Wales for independence and there is in
:13:53. > :13:55.Scotland or Northern Ireland. -- demand in Wales. If you look at the
:13:56. > :14:00.vote on the EU it's pretty much the same as in England, if not even
:14:01. > :14:07.more. So I think the political culture in Wales is much more
:14:08. > :14:11.reliance I think we would survive very happily. Do you think that
:14:12. > :14:14.would change if it was a United Kingdom of Wales and England,
:14:15. > :14:20.without the other Celts, if I can put it like that? Well, it would be
:14:21. > :14:25.more lonely in a sense, and I would regret that. It would also mean
:14:26. > :14:30.England would be overwhelmingly the larger partner than it is now.
:14:31. > :14:35.England now is 85% of the UK and if it was just Wales and England, then
:14:36. > :14:40.3.1 million people against nearly 60 million, Wales would be much more of
:14:41. > :14:44.an appendage. But given we have a devolution settlement, I don't see
:14:45. > :14:48.anything very much would change. With that devolution settlement and
:14:49. > :14:52.Ukip's place in Wales after Brexit, where do you fit into it? Is there a
:14:53. > :15:01.danger you can win the war on Brexit but then lose the peace by becoming
:15:02. > :15:05.largely irrelevant? No, we are still on 15% in the polls nationally in
:15:06. > :15:10.the UK. We have our group and make a lot of noise in the Assembly... You
:15:11. > :15:16.might generate a few headlines for various reasons but what are you
:15:17. > :15:18.achieving in Wales? We are an opposition party. We are not part of
:15:19. > :15:25.the government so we can't push through legislation but we'll here
:15:26. > :15:29.to stay and our role is to grow stronger in the system and become a
:15:30. > :15:32.bigger political force to be reckoned with. But if you look at
:15:33. > :15:36.the recent by-election in Stoke and the leaders who stood there, the
:15:37. > :15:41.problem was Brexit wasn't a big issue there. It was fought on local
:15:42. > :15:45.services, NHS, schools, local political issues, and on those
:15:46. > :15:53.issues, voters don't care or know what Ukip is about there. Is that
:15:54. > :15:58.the problem? Selling I think we should have concentrated on policies
:15:59. > :16:02.that were closer to people. Or should have put more in the NHS.
:16:03. > :16:05.That is the sort of policy pledge I will make in Wales because we are
:16:06. > :16:10.they any party that says things like that. For the local elections, you
:16:11. > :16:15.will be pitching it as a foreign aid issue which isn't a devolved to
:16:16. > :16:18.Wales, let alone councils. The point is life is about choices and the
:16:19. > :16:25.government spends our money, in certain ways, so we think it would
:16:26. > :16:29.be better spent in other ways. Wouldn't it be better for you to
:16:30. > :16:33.concentrate on issues where Welsh councils are able to enact change,
:16:34. > :16:39.rather than something that is a matter for the UK government? We
:16:40. > :16:43.will do that too. For example, ?300 off the average electricity bill if
:16:44. > :16:49.we scrap subsidies for wind farms. Ukip is the only party putting that
:16:50. > :16:54.policy forward. We will put more money into the pockets of working
:16:55. > :16:59.people, that is what we are about. Looking at the council elections, we
:17:00. > :17:03.saw the acting chair or former acting chair, saying he thinks the
:17:04. > :17:07.party in Wales is unravelling but he doesn't think the campaign will get
:17:08. > :17:12.off the ground. Is that a fair reflection? I know Chris Smart very
:17:13. > :17:22.well. He left in frustration because of internal rows over Arron Banks.
:17:23. > :17:26.He's no longer remember of Ukip. I think under Paul Nuttall's
:17:27. > :17:31.leadership we will refocus our attention on local issues, Welsh
:17:32. > :17:34.issues in Wales. Paul Nuttall said you're put in place a coordinator
:17:35. > :17:41.for local elections. Has that happened? Well, there will be
:17:42. > :17:47.nationally a coordinator for local elections in the UK. In Wales, Ukip
:17:48. > :17:52.is a small party, in terms of membership. Each branch will be
:17:53. > :17:57.putting up candidates in their own local government area, but there
:17:58. > :18:00.won't be any central direction, as such, although we will give them
:18:01. > :18:05.every possible assistance we can. Is there a danger you won't get very
:18:06. > :18:10.many candidates, therefore not much support? And what will happen when
:18:11. > :18:15.Ukip is Brexit is dwindled into irrelevance? Our party membership is
:18:16. > :18:19.keeping up. We're still at the same point in the polls as we were in
:18:20. > :18:24.general collection. So, your stagnating. We've concentrated all
:18:25. > :18:29.our efforts on winning the referendum, which we did. We
:18:30. > :18:33.wouldn't have won without Ukip. And we have four years between now and
:18:34. > :18:38.the next local elections, three years until the general election. So
:18:39. > :18:43.there is lots of work for us to do, and we will repair the deficiencies
:18:44. > :18:49.of the past in terms of organisation in Wales. The other political
:18:50. > :18:52.parties in Wales have come together to put out a statement opposing
:18:53. > :18:57.racism in the upcoming elections. You haven't signed up to that. Why
:18:58. > :19:02.is that? We wanted to add a paragraph. The letter as Rafter by
:19:03. > :19:04.the level government read as though people were concerned about
:19:05. > :19:08.immigration, therefore they were racist. The majority of those people
:19:09. > :19:13.are not racist, and we wanted to put in a paragraph to reflect that only
:19:14. > :19:17.refused to do so, so we put out our own statement. They say it reflects
:19:18. > :19:24.badly on the party. Was it a stitch up? It reflects badly on the Labour
:19:25. > :19:27.government in Wales which refuses to accept that uncontrolled immigration
:19:28. > :19:29.has had a disastrous effect on people with low wage incomes and
:19:30. > :19:32.Ukip will stand up for them! Brexit may be dominating
:19:33. > :19:35.the headlines, but in a matter of weeks we'll be going into another
:19:36. > :19:38.round of local elections in Wales. Before the political parties
:19:39. > :19:40.define their campaign themes, there's time to consider how local
:19:41. > :19:42.government - the councils who deliver public services -
:19:43. > :19:45.should be reformed. It's been three years
:19:46. > :19:47.since the Williams Commission recommended cutting the number
:19:48. > :19:49.of councils in Wales First Minister Carwyn Jones said
:19:50. > :19:56.at the time, "The status Since then, proposals
:19:57. > :20:01.for mergers have come and gone, and there's been a local government
:20:02. > :20:04.bill, but still no clarity on what the future of local
:20:05. > :20:19.government will look like. Councils are responsible for the
:20:20. > :20:23.services that impact on our daily lives. From roads to rubbish. In
:20:24. > :20:29.recent years, they've been under considerable financial strain. It's
:20:30. > :20:35.never been as bad as it is now. And none of us came into politics to cut
:20:36. > :20:41.things, to close things. It is a completely new ball game. Councils
:20:42. > :20:47.used to be about providing services, building leisure centres, building
:20:48. > :20:50.homes for elderly and infirm, really putting that fabric into society.
:20:51. > :20:54.Well, we haven't been able to do that for a very long time. It has
:20:55. > :20:59.been a long and bumpy road. While these cuts have been implemented,
:21:00. > :21:03.there is the additional confusion of local government reform. There's
:21:04. > :21:07.never a good time to do local government reorganisation. If you
:21:08. > :21:11.could have been a worse time, it would be been hard. We've had
:21:12. > :21:14.responses of budget cuts and then have these discussions which caused
:21:15. > :21:19.uncertainty in the sectors of the last few years has been a very poor
:21:20. > :21:23.time to have those discussions about reorganisation. It's been like a
:21:24. > :21:27.fairground ride. The continual shifting sands have meant we haven't
:21:28. > :21:32.been able to look long-term, we haven't been able to look as
:21:33. > :21:37.strategically as we have done. The killings with -- beginning with the
:21:38. > :21:42.Williams Commission which called for ten, 11 or 12 authorities in Wales,
:21:43. > :21:46.attempts by the Welsh government to drive through change have frequently
:21:47. > :21:50.been frustrated. First, there were voluntary mergers, a few councils
:21:51. > :21:55.propose joining forces with their neighbours, only to have their
:21:56. > :21:58.proposals thrown out by the Welsh government. Then another diversion.
:21:59. > :22:06.The public services Minister at the time attempted to propose change
:22:07. > :22:10.with forced mergers which turned out to be a dead-end. Over the border,
:22:11. > :22:16.the UK government decided reorganisation was wasteful, and a
:22:17. > :22:19.pointless, expensive exercise. We've wasted three years in Wales
:22:20. > :22:24.discussing structures and merging of authorities said there has been a
:22:25. > :22:29.waste of time and effort. We now need to look forward to designing
:22:30. > :22:37.structures will be the pit-mac and place for many years. So when you
:22:38. > :22:42.strategy. As listening exercise with councils across Wales. The idea is
:22:43. > :22:46.to keep the 22 local authorities but design ways to deliver key services
:22:47. > :22:50.on a regional basis. Sometimes, you can get caught up in a conversation
:22:51. > :22:56.that takes you down a dead-end, and I think that what has happened
:22:57. > :23:00.previously. The journey has moved on. And we're going to make it work.
:23:01. > :23:04.It seems Welsh councils are much happier with the new approach but
:23:05. > :23:08.will it be radical enough to put public services on a sustainable
:23:09. > :23:13.footing? Either way, there is still a very long road ahead. It's taken
:23:14. > :23:18.many years of discussion and thousands of pages to get to the
:23:19. > :23:21.point now where we're not still clear how authorities will work
:23:22. > :23:25.together on key services. There are some areas where the Welsh
:23:26. > :23:28.government dictated this is where you have to work together, other
:23:29. > :23:30.areas are open for discussion. We could have got to this point a
:23:31. > :23:33.number of years ago. I'll be discussing the way forward
:23:34. > :23:35.with local government consultant Jeff Jones
:23:36. > :23:36.and Professor Catherine the University of South Wales,
:23:37. > :23:40.and local government consultant and former
:23:41. > :23:50.council leader Jeff Jones. We could have been at this .3 years
:23:51. > :23:54.ago. Has it been a waste of time? Quite possibly and we've spent a
:23:55. > :23:58.long time talking about local government and its functions and we
:23:59. > :24:02.have possibly wasted three years but who knows, we are where we are,
:24:03. > :24:05.there's a new White Paper, local authorities are being consulted,
:24:06. > :24:08.there is a new agenda around democracy and this is the first time
:24:09. > :24:16.we have seen what local government is supposed to be about what it is
:24:17. > :24:19.going to be about in the future. There is a regional agenda pushed in
:24:20. > :24:20.this White Paper which is new and different. We've spent so often
:24:21. > :24:27.talking about reorganisation but people at home will care nothing
:24:28. > :24:32.more than getting bins picked up, leisure centres etc. It's difficult
:24:33. > :24:36.and what people forget is local government doesn't raise a great
:24:37. > :24:41.deal of money. How does this corporation work? If you set how can
:24:42. > :24:45.local government improve your services, the Assembly needs more
:24:46. > :24:49.money, where does it get it from? Westminster. We have Brexit. Even
:24:50. > :24:57.without Brexit, the Tory government wants to reduce the public sector by
:24:58. > :24:59.36%. What worries me is you look at the long-term economic forecast
:25:00. > :25:04.within each local authority and there are some pretty awful cuts
:25:05. > :25:09.coming after next May's election. The reorganisation does not address
:25:10. > :25:13.that. That's a bleak outlook. Is there anything that working together
:25:14. > :25:19.and saving some money, will it impact on this? You look at 1996
:25:20. > :25:23.when these authorities will put in place, that a gender is still there.
:25:24. > :25:28.Under this White Paper, authorities can merge if it works for the
:25:29. > :25:33.citizen. Those democratic ideas still exist. There's a regional
:25:34. > :25:42.agenda, and working together, health and social care are going to be
:25:43. > :25:44.working together under the regional partnership boards, the educational
:25:45. > :25:48.consortia, so there is an attempt to regionalise things and the issue for
:25:49. > :25:51.me how does that pan out in terms of governance? Will there be the
:25:52. > :25:55.appropriate governance structures for those? Isn't there a problem of
:25:56. > :25:59.accountability? When we look at the councils coming together and working
:26:00. > :26:03.to regional levels, the question I put to the local government
:26:04. > :26:08.secretary in November last year was if my school is being closed but my
:26:09. > :26:13.council has merged with the next three neighbouring councils, who do
:26:14. > :26:21.I hold to account? Who do I vote out? And there isn't an answer, is
:26:22. > :26:23.there? There is the problem of disillusionment. If your local
:26:24. > :26:26.councillor and someone says will you fight to keep the school open? They
:26:27. > :26:33.say it isn't anything to do with them. This is organiser to regional
:26:34. > :26:37.level. The result will then be you have fragmentation of politics,
:26:38. > :26:41.which we have seen in May. Groups are being set up in various
:26:42. > :26:46.authorities, not based on the critical parties but on localities.
:26:47. > :26:51.It is identity politics coming back into government. The problem is
:26:52. > :26:55.trying to balance that lack of accountability or loss of
:26:56. > :26:59.accountability with the savings and the positive element. It is a
:27:00. > :27:04.difficult one for councils. The themes in the White Paper about
:27:05. > :27:07.sustainability, integration of services, it is about working
:27:08. > :27:15.together for the future, and the paper is titled resilience and
:27:16. > :27:18.renewed local government, but it is renewed public services. What it
:27:19. > :27:21.builds and there is the participation of the citizen much
:27:22. > :27:25.more in developing and building their areas. Councils are being
:27:26. > :27:28.renewed. One of the other aspect of this White Paper that hasn't been
:27:29. > :27:32.mentioned is that councils can decide whether they want to continue
:27:33. > :27:37.with the system in place for 20 years, which is a cabinet system or
:27:38. > :27:41.go back to the committee system. Local authorities in Wales and
:27:42. > :27:45.councillors understood that system so there is a change for people
:27:46. > :27:48.along the way. Is there another issue here that the Local Government
:27:49. > :27:54.Association in Wales is saying over the next decade or so social care
:27:55. > :27:58.will double in terms of cost and any savings or changes will be dwarfed
:27:59. > :28:02.by that. Is that the main problem? We are living in an ageing
:28:03. > :28:07.population. I'll be using social care in the future. The problem is
:28:08. > :28:11.local government is the agency, along with the health boards that
:28:12. > :28:15.deliver social care. At the end of the day, they are an agency on
:28:16. > :28:20.behalf of what? You need the money, and my theory is and I've said this
:28:21. > :28:23.previously is that social care is a national issue. You've got to get
:28:24. > :28:30.the finance right. That might mean we all have to pay more into social
:28:31. > :28:33.care but to actually say it's up to the local government or Assembly, it
:28:34. > :28:40.is up to all of us to provide a social care future. Plenty did -- to
:28:41. > :28:42.discuss consomme. Thank you both. If you'd like to get in touch
:28:43. > :28:47.with us about what's been discussed tonight,
:28:48. > :28:49.or anything else, email us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk,
:28:50. > :28:51.or follow us on social media, Rhod Gilbert's enrolled
:28:52. > :29:22.in building school. That's really good
:29:23. > :29:26.for the first attempt. Not going to cry, are you?
:29:27. > :29:29.Oh...I'm welling up. But will he survive on
:29:30. > :29:32.a real building site? Do you kick people off
:29:33. > :29:33.pretty quickly if they're not up to scratch?
:29:34. > :29:35.Er, yes, we do, yeah. Pressure's on.
:29:36. > :29:38.Right, get the bucket.