:00:12. > :00:22.Good evening. This week the recent maid came to Swansea to get on with
:00:23. > :00:24.a city deal. A clear sign they say that she is committed to keeping the
:00:25. > :00:33.nations of the UK together How does that square
:00:34. > :00:36.with the prospect of And how will pressure
:00:37. > :00:39.from the Scottish government ? for a new referendum on independence
:00:40. > :00:42.? affect the path ahead? Remember you can have your say -
:00:43. > :00:45.join in the debate on Twitter. This week - the possibility
:00:46. > :00:49.of a second independence referendum in Scotland seems ever more likely ?
:00:50. > :00:52.today the Scottish parliament has backed Nicola Sturgeon's call,
:00:53. > :00:54.placing a question mark over But Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns
:00:55. > :00:56.says the Prime Minister is committed to the Union,
:00:57. > :00:58.and to getting the best deal for everyone -
:00:59. > :01:01.and that talk of breaking up the UK could in fact undermine
:01:02. > :01:05.Brexit negotiations. I think the more we talk about
:01:06. > :01:08.constitutional change in the UK that am nervous investors and we need to
:01:09. > :01:17.be in the strongest position possible to demonstrate to the world
:01:18. > :01:20.that we can attract investment, so clearly we want to negotiate with
:01:21. > :01:24.the European Union and we want the warmest of relationships and we want
:01:25. > :01:28.them to be able to trade with us and the same way we train to them but it
:01:29. > :01:33.is about getting a plan that works for every part of the UK and
:01:34. > :01:35.constitutional debates and upheaval is not helpful because that creates
:01:36. > :01:36.uncertainty. But First Minister Carwyn Jones has
:01:37. > :01:39.told this programme that the UK constitution must be modernised
:01:40. > :01:41.so it works for each of the four nations,
:01:42. > :01:43.or Scottish independence could just be the beginning of Theresa May's
:01:44. > :01:55.constitutional woes. What worries me is not the situation
:01:56. > :02:00.now but what might happen in the future. If the Scots leave the UK
:02:01. > :02:04.and they hope they don't, what is left is quite unbalanced and it
:02:05. > :02:08.would need to be rebalanced to be effective. I fear England than
:02:09. > :02:13.saying we will go off on our own as a country. It sounds strange but
:02:14. > :02:17.lots of strange things are possible with that seismic shift in the way
:02:18. > :02:22.politics operates on these islands. That puts Wales in a position but
:02:23. > :02:26.having no choice but going in a certain direction. I don't want to
:02:27. > :02:27.see that. I would rather a partnership of four nations working
:02:28. > :02:29.together towards a common purpose. So, where next for the UK
:02:30. > :02:33.and Wales' place within it? Earlier I spoke to the leader
:02:34. > :02:44.of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. If the Scots do vote to become an
:02:45. > :02:50.independent countries in the UK will no longer exist, and so that should
:02:51. > :02:53.be the time where in Wales we have a conversation about where we want to
:02:54. > :02:57.go individual. There is a danger I think that we would be dragged into
:02:58. > :03:03.some sort of England and Wales entity where the Welsh national
:03:04. > :03:05.interest becomes completely subsumed and there are alternatives to going
:03:06. > :03:09.down that road and I think that all of those alternatives should be on
:03:10. > :03:13.the table and that people in Wales should have the option to vote for
:03:14. > :03:18.those alternatives in a referendum. How many alternatives either? There
:03:19. > :03:25.are a range of alternatives. Already 43% of people in opinion polls want
:03:26. > :03:28.to see Wales have more powers. Obviously the question of
:03:29. > :03:33.independence for Wales and there may be other options that we have yet to
:03:34. > :03:37.even talk about the point is we need to have a discussion about our
:03:38. > :03:40.future and its people in Wales who should decide what that future looks
:03:41. > :03:44.like. When you talk about independence for some people but is
:03:45. > :03:48.and the notion that scares them and for others it is exciting but that
:03:49. > :03:54.has been traditionally if we believe polls a very small minority of
:03:55. > :03:58.people in Wales. What gives you any confidence that that could change
:03:59. > :04:04.even if Scotland votes in a certain way? We have seen since the Brexit
:04:05. > :04:07.but opinion polls have shown that there may be more people open to
:04:08. > :04:11.considering what an independent Wales might look like and even the
:04:12. > :04:14.First Minister has said that if Theresa May ploughs ahead with a
:04:15. > :04:19.hard Brexit and doesn't listen to the needs of people in Wales and
:04:20. > :04:22.Scotland then independence is something that could become more
:04:23. > :04:27.popular amongst the public, so that is something that isn't there on the
:04:28. > :04:31.table and it is clear that the status quo is not delivering for
:04:32. > :04:38.Wales. It is simply unacceptable that average wages in Wales are 10%
:04:39. > :04:42.of the average for the UK, at 23% of people living in Wales are living in
:04:43. > :04:48.poverty and we don't have the tools to do something about that, so the
:04:49. > :04:52.next step for us may be enhanced economic powers so that we can turn
:04:53. > :04:55.around the economic position but ultimately I believe that decisions
:04:56. > :04:59.about Wales are best taken in Wales and it is only people in Wales that
:05:00. > :05:03.will have their best interests at heart at all times. I don't want to
:05:04. > :05:08.get stuck in terminology, people in your party say the use of the word
:05:09. > :05:12.independent is not helpful and that it is old-fashioned and an
:05:13. > :05:15.old-fashioned concept, but if you talk about a more federal settlement
:05:16. > :05:22.with UK with more powers for Cardiff and Edinburgh and Belfast, that is a
:05:23. > :05:28.much more modern and understandable concept, so why are you still wedded
:05:29. > :05:32.to this notion of independence? That may be a staging post through the
:05:33. > :05:35.journey but I think it is not right to say people don't understand what
:05:36. > :05:40.independence is. With the debate that happened in Scotland in 2014
:05:41. > :05:45.and the debate now it is clear what an independent Scotland means and
:05:46. > :05:51.the same for Wales, it means having the powers to decide for yourself.
:05:52. > :05:53.Of course there will always be reasons to collaborate and cooperate
:05:54. > :05:57.with other countries much as we have been doing in the European Union,
:05:58. > :06:02.and the same I would imagine would take place on a UK basis beyond
:06:03. > :06:06.Scottish independence and beyond Welsh independence. There are things
:06:07. > :06:09.were it is in all of our interests to work together on but that should
:06:10. > :06:18.be on the basis of equality, a partnership of equals, as opposed to
:06:19. > :06:21.the unequal situation we are in now. Partnership of equals, equality,
:06:22. > :06:24.this is exactly the case that Gordon Brown has been meeting recently. He
:06:25. > :06:29.is not making the case for independence, it is a much more
:06:30. > :06:32.equitable settlement with the in the current United Kingdom so where are
:06:33. > :06:37.you differing here if you talk about powers that are assured of fairly,
:06:38. > :06:41.but for you is the problem with retaining the union but getting more
:06:42. > :06:45.powers within it? We have heard all this before. Gordon Brown was one of
:06:46. > :06:50.the people who spoke ahead of the Scottish referendum in 2014,
:06:51. > :06:53.remember the bow that was promised the people in Scotland. That didn't
:06:54. > :06:59.really materialise to much and so I am pretty sure that you will be
:07:00. > :07:04.quite cynical. If we look ahead to the exit talks, how does Wales
:07:05. > :07:07.secure a loud enough and an assertive enough voice in those
:07:08. > :07:10.talks and are you concerned at the end of the day that if that voice is
:07:11. > :07:15.interred very clearly the outcome for Wales could be less than
:07:16. > :07:18.advantageous? Very concerned about that. It appears to me that the
:07:19. > :07:24.Prime Minister is not really listening to the needs of the nation
:07:25. > :07:28.'s that make up the UK, she is on her part and she seems to be
:07:29. > :07:33.determined to see that pass through. Plaid Cymru has worked with the
:07:34. > :07:37.worst government to put together the white paper outlining exactly what
:07:38. > :07:39.the best interests of Wales would be in those negotiations and I am
:07:40. > :07:43.looking all the time for evidence that some of those messages in that
:07:44. > :07:48.white paper are coming through, for example it is really important for
:07:49. > :07:52.Wales and the Welsh economy for us to retain or membership of the
:07:53. > :07:57.single market. We are a big exporting nation and 67% of all our
:07:58. > :08:01.exports to the European single market. It looks like the Prime
:08:02. > :08:06.Minister isn't taking that view as seriously as she could be and for
:08:07. > :08:10.the Scots that means that she is going to plough ahead with a hard
:08:11. > :08:13.Brexit, there are serious consequences to that. Union
:08:14. > :08:17.membership, not access? Because that has been ruled out. In the white
:08:18. > :08:21.paper we have called for participation in the single market
:08:22. > :08:24.and what that means... Which is very different membership. The bottom
:08:25. > :08:29.line for us is tariff free access and no extra costs one Welsh
:08:30. > :08:33.businesses. That is the kind of thing that would put jobs under
:08:34. > :08:37.threat. Those companies can't afford those extra costs. That is the
:08:38. > :08:42.bottom line but there are many demands in that white paper,
:08:43. > :08:46.including to give guarantees to EU citizens who are already living and
:08:47. > :08:50.working here, guarantees for students to travel freely for
:08:51. > :08:55.example, there are key industries and sectors in Wales where we need
:08:56. > :08:57.workers from abroad at least in the short term and we don't want to see
:08:58. > :09:04.those industries and sectors hampered. The NHS is a proud simple.
:09:05. > :09:10.It may be that the interests of the south-east of England are not
:09:11. > :09:13.exactly the same as those of Wales, but the Prime Minister represents
:09:14. > :09:18.the whole of the UK, she has said that she will consult with Wales and
:09:19. > :09:21.Scotland. I have yet to see any evidence of that consultation or to
:09:22. > :09:26.understand exactly what that means. One of the key themes, as you know
:09:27. > :09:31.only too well, has been to do with freedom of movement. There has been
:09:32. > :09:34.a big debate. If voters as Cuba Plaid Cymru stance on freedom of
:09:35. > :09:40.movement, given the concerns expressed in the referendum last
:09:41. > :09:42.year, what did you say to them? I have said to them right through the
:09:43. > :09:46.debate that the debate around immigration in Wales is very
:09:47. > :09:51.different to that in parts of England. The numbers here are very
:09:52. > :09:56.small. You could fit every single EU national deserving in Wales in the
:09:57. > :10:01.Millennium Stadium. -- that is living in Wales. As many of them
:10:02. > :10:05.work in key sectors as I have already mentioned the NHS, so we
:10:06. > :10:11.want to protect those sectors and the livelihoods of people who live
:10:12. > :10:15.here. I accept that many people want to see the immigration rules
:10:16. > :10:21.tightened up, and in the white paper that we drew up with the Welsh
:10:22. > :10:26.Government we called for in that a Norwegian style system. In no way
:10:27. > :10:30.freedom of movement carries on but it is linked to having a job in that
:10:31. > :10:35.country. You can go to find a job there but the time is limited. That
:10:36. > :10:39.would enable you to ensure you got the key staff for those key sectors
:10:40. > :10:43.and that there wouldn't be major problems in our economy as a result
:10:44. > :10:47.of a complete cut-off at some point. What would you say to your critics
:10:48. > :10:51.who say that Plaid Cymru will be performing much more strongly at the
:10:52. > :10:54.moment had you shown a willingness to understand or to show that you
:10:55. > :11:00.understood concerns about immigration over recent years?
:11:01. > :11:03.Peoples about immigration are in the main a perception problem. --
:11:04. > :11:11.concerns about them immigration. They are imagine it? That is thing
:11:12. > :11:15.to say. When you think about how people voted and how they express
:11:16. > :11:19.their opinions it is quite a thing to say they are fantasising? When
:11:20. > :11:23.you look at tabloid newspapers there are stories are stories and stories
:11:24. > :11:27.about ways in which immigrants have done wrong things and bad things and
:11:28. > :11:30.illegal things and that builds up a picture over time. It may be that
:11:31. > :11:35.there are some problems in some parts of the UK, but in Wales we
:11:36. > :11:39.don't have those problems. People do have a perception that there is a
:11:40. > :11:44.problem, this offer for example from low wages or frozen wages of data
:11:45. > :11:49.might not be able to get housing or they may have to wait for a health
:11:50. > :11:52.appointment, and many people believe that those problems are there
:11:53. > :11:56.because of the migration. When you look at the facts and the evidence
:11:57. > :12:00.there are other reasons behind those problems. If we want to tackle those
:12:01. > :12:04.problems we have to actually tackle the real problems and not a
:12:05. > :12:10.perception. Because we could end up throwing out every single immigrant
:12:11. > :12:13.from Wales, making them go home and sending them back on boats and
:12:14. > :12:18.planes and still people would have those same problems. They wouldn't
:12:19. > :12:22.be resolved. So rather than cause absolute mayhem and upheaval in
:12:23. > :12:25.people's lives, let's have a sensible approach to freedom of
:12:26. > :12:28.movement and that have a policy that meets our needs in the Welsh
:12:29. > :12:29.economy. Thank you for talking to us.
:12:30. > :12:32.A new Swansea Bay City deal was signed this week,
:12:33. > :12:35.promising ?1.3 billion of investment for the region of South West Wales.
:12:36. > :12:38.Everyone seems to agree it's welcome news ? if somewhat overdue given
:12:39. > :12:41.the economic challenges of the region - and it's
:12:42. > :12:45.highlighted the challenges in other parts of Wales.
:12:46. > :12:48.More than 1000 jobs are seen to be at risk at the Ford factory
:12:49. > :12:51.in Bridgend ? and Tata Steel workers have already voted to cut
:12:52. > :12:53.their pension entitlement to protect their job prospects.
:12:54. > :12:56.In an ever more competitive global economy, there's renewed debate
:12:57. > :13:00.about what the state can do to sustain jobs in industry.
:13:01. > :13:02.In a moment, I'll be talking the Economy Secretary Ken Skates.
:13:03. > :13:06.But first, we invited someone with a very different
:13:07. > :13:08.perspective to Mr Skates, Professor Patrick Minford,
:13:09. > :13:10.former economic advisor to Margaret Thatcher,
:13:11. > :13:12.to an industrial warehouse on the outskirts of Cardiff
:13:13. > :13:33.to examine Wales' place in the global economy.
:13:34. > :13:45.Wales is, as we know, adjusted from a very different industrial past.
:13:46. > :13:52.The economy is constantly adjusting. In 1970 35% of jobs were in
:13:53. > :13:57.manufacturing, metal bashing. They had no long-term future, today it is
:13:58. > :14:05.8%. The UK economy has been changing throughout that period towards
:14:06. > :14:11.high-tech manufacturing. Jobs are lost in those parts of the economy
:14:12. > :14:16.that are declining because they cannot meet the competitive pressure
:14:17. > :14:22.from abroad. We don't know exactly which sectors will be rich, but as a
:14:23. > :14:28.nation we are best of having the institutions that allow the good
:14:29. > :14:36.industries to expand and that can compete and allow the other
:14:37. > :14:42.industries to decline. The fundamental role of government is to
:14:43. > :14:47.create a business friendly environment. The basic point about
:14:48. > :14:52.free trade is it gives a consumer the best prices in the world for
:14:53. > :14:57.what they want to buy. And then the idea is we then complete against the
:14:58. > :15:04.world and produced the things we are best that. That way, we get a double
:15:05. > :15:08.bonus. The consumer gets the best prices and we get the highest
:15:09. > :15:12.productivity by concentrating on the industries we are best at. The
:15:13. > :15:15.government tries to sort of stop things happening, it will lower
:15:16. > :15:20.living standards and disappoint the people of Wales.
:15:21. > :15:23.I'm joined now by Ken Skates, Cabinet Secretary for the Economy
:15:24. > :15:25.and Infrastructure, about his new strategy
:15:26. > :15:40.Thank you for coming in. The talk was old sectors, and you are talking
:15:41. > :15:46.about regions, focusing on the economy of a place, if you like. Why
:15:47. > :15:52.have you changed focus? The sectors have proved to be incredibly
:15:53. > :15:56.successful and now it is time to refocus and make sure we take out
:15:57. > :16:00.the unevenness of economic growth across Wales. We are setting out a
:16:01. > :16:06.vision that will resolve the unequal growth of the economy across Wales
:16:07. > :16:09.by sorting out the foundation, the foundation of every economy so
:16:10. > :16:16.people are equipped with the skills to get into work. They have rapid
:16:17. > :16:20.transport to get to work and other challenges resolved, such as
:16:21. > :16:28.childcare pressures. But we need to invest in those high-tech economies
:16:29. > :16:32.of tomorrow where we know we have capabilities and specialties at the
:16:33. > :16:38.moment. It could be in financial technology in the south-east. It
:16:39. > :16:42.could be in advanced aerospace in the north-east or in nuclear in the
:16:43. > :16:46.north-west. We are already leading the world in some areas, we need to
:16:47. > :16:51.make sure we take the transition from today to tomorrow to make sure
:16:52. > :16:56.we are still reading. When you look at the deal that has been set up in
:16:57. > :17:02.Swansea, there are people saying, this isn't in line with the spirit
:17:03. > :17:06.of the original concept. There is not enough investment in
:17:07. > :17:10.infrastructure, not enough investment in people, this is more
:17:11. > :17:17.about buildings and show economy. Is there a bit, an element of truth in
:17:18. > :17:22.that argument and are you not investing still in things that need
:17:23. > :17:27.investment? I am excited about the deal for the Swansea region. Because
:17:28. > :17:33.it identifies where the future of the regional economy will grow. That
:17:34. > :17:36.is going to be on the back of digital technology, new and emerging
:17:37. > :17:41.technologies to make sure the economy of that region is future
:17:42. > :17:45.proof, to make sure it remains at the cutting edge of manufacturing. I
:17:46. > :17:53.am excited about the prospects for the region, given the deal. I would
:17:54. > :17:58.say we now need to look at UK governments and North Wales agreeing
:17:59. > :18:04.on a growth deal as well. That has to be completed sooner, rather than
:18:05. > :18:15.later. In a matter of months? I would like it completed in a matter
:18:16. > :18:18.of months. There is a meeting in June, so North Wales can gain the
:18:19. > :18:25.same benefits and then we have three primary motors for the Welsh economy
:18:26. > :18:28.that can drive economic growth right across communities. Can we talk
:18:29. > :18:35.about the quality of jobs, because that is important. And the
:18:36. > :18:39.announcement of a major new prison in Port Talbot. Adam Price saying
:18:40. > :18:43.turning Wales into a vast super prison for the English justice
:18:44. > :18:50.system is not the economic future we need or deserve. Does he have a
:18:51. > :18:53.point? No, he doesn't. He is rejecting the idea of creating
:18:54. > :19:01.wealth and opportunity in Wales of the back of a sustainable economy.
:19:02. > :19:10.It is not the first prison? The prison near Wrexham, the facilities
:19:11. > :19:14.to build that prison was provided to the local workforce and it provided
:19:15. > :19:20.opportunity to create wealth in the area. There will be taxi firms,
:19:21. > :19:23.hospitality businesses, there will be a whole host of opportunities for
:19:24. > :19:32.the skills training sector to make sure they can benefit from the spin
:19:33. > :19:37.off of that prison. I am sure if we can get the Ministry of Justice to
:19:38. > :19:42.apply the same sort of conditions to the proposal for the prison in south
:19:43. > :19:47.Wales, then there will be considerable economic benefits for
:19:48. > :19:51.the communities in that area. Let's talk about economic problems in the
:19:52. > :19:58.Brexit process. More talk this week about the fact some ministers and
:19:59. > :20:01.government, in Theresa May's government, are openly considering
:20:02. > :20:06.the prospect of no deal at the end of this process and fall back on WTO
:20:07. > :20:11.regulations. What would that mean for Wales? That is, in my view,
:20:12. > :20:17.would be nothing short of a disaster. We have had government
:20:18. > :20:20.ministers assuring everybody that everything will be fine after the
:20:21. > :20:25.divorce and the two-year negotiations. We need transitions
:20:26. > :20:30.back and give security and assurances to businesses in Wales
:20:31. > :20:33.and across the UK. Reverting to World Trade Organisation rules would
:20:34. > :20:38.not be in our interests. I would also suggest the Prime Minister
:20:39. > :20:44.backs the likes of Michael Heseltine, rather than Liam Fox
:20:45. > :20:49.because it is essential we get the best deal with Europe, maintaining
:20:50. > :20:53.tariff free arrangements and ensuring we don't have any other
:20:54. > :21:00.technical barriers. It is time more of those realistic figures within
:21:01. > :21:05.the Conservative Party at Westminster stand up for what they
:21:06. > :21:11.believe in. Talking about people use sacks. She has made the decision on
:21:12. > :21:15.that perspective. When you look at the negotiations ahead, as we
:21:16. > :21:19.understand it, the Welsh government wasn't even informed about the data
:21:20. > :21:24.Article 50 will be triggered. What does that tell you about your
:21:25. > :21:29.chances of having a meaningful voice in that debate? I would say to the
:21:30. > :21:34.UK Government, the Welsh government has been clear about what it is we
:21:35. > :21:40.need but the whole of the UK. If they are not listening, there is not
:21:41. > :21:43.much point is there? We want the UK Government to use the language the
:21:44. > :21:50.Welsh government have been using for months, free unfettered access.
:21:51. > :21:59.Access to the single market. They are now listening. If they are
:22:00. > :22:03.listening to others then the UK Government should be listening on
:22:04. > :22:08.the detail. We stand to work with them that they have to be open to
:22:09. > :22:12.working with us in a genuine and meaningful way, not just paying us
:22:13. > :22:20.lip service. As we leave the EU, we need to remain strong as a nation.
:22:21. > :22:24.We can only do that is if Wales is respected, Scotland is respected
:22:25. > :22:28.Northern Ireland and the regions of England. George Osborne said we were
:22:29. > :22:36.all in it together, well, we are in this. Are you saying the terms of
:22:37. > :22:39.the political debate about Wales' future could change significantly in
:22:40. > :22:43.relation to the rest of the UK if there is a perception Wales is not
:22:44. > :22:52.being listened to last remark it is a risk, I hope it can be avoided. It
:22:53. > :22:56.can be avoided if the First Minister acts upon those concerns swiftly. It
:22:57. > :22:59.is no good the Prime Minister giving the Welsh government late notice of
:23:00. > :23:05.its intentions. We must be there with clear purpose and the best way
:23:06. > :23:09.to ensure that is by having us in the room influencing the outcome of
:23:10. > :23:15.negotiators at every step. If they refuse to do that, it could have
:23:16. > :23:17.damaging consequences on the relationship between the nations.
:23:18. > :23:32.Minister, thank you for coming in. Let's talk about Brexit and its
:23:33. > :23:45.potential ramifications. We will talk to two experts. We have David
:23:46. > :23:48.Torrance and Professor Laura McAllister. First of all, the
:23:49. > :23:51.question of a voice for Wales and Scotland in the Brexit process.
:23:52. > :23:56.Theresa May has said she is listening and will take those views
:23:57. > :24:01.into account. What does the form tell us so far? It is pretty
:24:02. > :24:07.damning. The most damning indictment of how little Wales has been
:24:08. > :24:10.listened to was from the Welsh government minister last week who
:24:11. > :24:15.talked about a pretty dreadful catalogue of ignorance with regards
:24:16. > :24:21.to involving Wales in this process. There hasn't been any sign Theresa
:24:22. > :24:24.May and her cabinet are taking the issue of the devolved
:24:25. > :24:30.administrations voices seriously. I see little prospect of that
:24:31. > :24:36.changing. Although the Scottish independence referendum does shift
:24:37. > :24:40.the ground. How does that change the way Scottish input is seen? It
:24:41. > :24:46.certainly means Scotland has a pretty direct and loud voice into
:24:47. > :24:53.that debate, if not the process of the UK extracting itself from the
:24:54. > :24:59.EU. As Laura says, I don't think the UK Government has covered itself in
:25:00. > :25:03.glory on this front. They apparently forgot to inform the Scottish
:25:04. > :25:08.Government it was triggering Article 50 next week. At the same time,
:25:09. > :25:11.people in London at Westminster tell their own story of trying to engage
:25:12. > :25:16.with the Scottish Government ministers on certain policy areas,
:25:17. > :25:22.agriculture and fisheries for example, and not getting anywhere
:25:23. > :25:34.fast. So there is two sides to that story. Laura, are the terms of
:25:35. > :25:38.Wales's future change because of Scotland? Brexit was always going to
:25:39. > :25:42.have an impact across the UK but the call for a Scottish referendum has
:25:43. > :25:47.moved the agenda in a different way. I think I can pick up on that
:25:48. > :25:51.quickly from what the First Minister has said. He has talked about the
:25:52. > :25:54.need for being a dividend for a Unionist government, like the Welsh
:25:55. > :26:02.government from the Brexit negotiations. That is hugely
:26:03. > :26:06.problematic. Ideological positions between a Unionist government in
:26:07. > :26:11.Wales and a Unionist government at a UK level, they are concept of what
:26:12. > :26:18.Brexit means. I don't see how that can play out for Wales. What has
:26:19. > :26:21.done, it has moved Welsh politics into an interesting territory, which
:26:22. > :26:27.is where Scotland were a few years ago. Nationalism and independents
:26:28. > :26:32.are not the same things. As the SNP have shown, people can vote for
:26:33. > :26:35.nationalist parties who are not traditional nationalist. The agenda
:26:36. > :26:42.around the degree of independence a country has become is very fluid.
:26:43. > :26:47.That is the kind of Beit debate we will be having in Wales. I want to
:26:48. > :26:50.feed into that by asking David the Unionist case to be made again by
:26:51. > :26:57.Gordon Brown which turned out to be rather important last time round in
:26:58. > :27:04.2014? The problem with Gordon Brown's intervention is he has made
:27:05. > :27:10.it several times since 2014. I think intellectually, the case for a
:27:11. > :27:14.federal UK is a very strong one. But unfortunately for the Labour Party
:27:15. > :27:18.and the Scottish Labour Party, they simply aren't taking us seriously as
:27:19. > :27:26.they were a few years ago. However cogent that case, the audience
:27:27. > :27:31.simply isn't there. Is the word independent now far less helpful
:27:32. > :27:35.than it was in the past, in terms of the nationalist case? Lots of people
:27:36. > :27:40.regard the concept of independence as a threat, they don't regard it as
:27:41. > :27:44.something that is remotely attractive? A federal settlement
:27:45. > :27:51.might, for some people, make more sense, what is your view? The
:27:52. > :27:55.concept of independence is outdated. I think the terminology is acronym
:27:56. > :27:59.stick. If you look at the powers the Scottish Government has now and the
:28:00. > :28:04.Scottish Parliament more generally, they are close to some degrees of
:28:05. > :28:08.independence that exist in other European nations. I think the
:28:09. > :28:12.introduction of the concept of federalism, in fairness to the First
:28:13. > :28:18.Minister, Carwyn Jones is one of the first voices who talked about
:28:19. > :28:22.federalism in 2012. The problem is, as David said, the Labour Party
:28:23. > :28:27.generally across the UK has very little status or profile in this
:28:28. > :28:32.debate. The different reasons, Wales is generally ignored and Scotland's
:28:33. > :28:43.Labour Party has been decimated by the Scottish Nationalists party. But
:28:44. > :28:46.the lack of constitutional debate is changing. If we hang on to this, are
:28:47. > :28:48.you for or against independence, we are missing some important nuances.
:28:49. > :28:50.I think the public may be ahead of the politicians on this. Thank you
:28:51. > :28:51.both for joining us. If you'd like to get in touch
:28:52. > :28:56.with us about what's been discussed tonight or anything else,
:28:57. > :28:58.email us at thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk,
:28:59. > :28:59.or follow us on social media ? where the discussion continues -
:29:00. > :29:07.the hashtag is #TheWalesReport. Thanks for watching. Have a good
:29:08. > :29:17.night.