:00:00. > :00:07.In four weeks' time, voters will take part
:00:08. > :00:10.in the general election of 2017 - the election that was
:00:11. > :00:13.And casting a long shadow over the entire campaign
:00:14. > :00:19.So tonight we start our election debates with a special edition
:00:20. > :00:21.on the biggest political issue of our time.
:00:22. > :00:38.So there are four weeks to go until election day on June 8th,
:00:39. > :00:44.an election that's been called by Theresa May three years ahead
:00:45. > :00:46.of the legal requirement because she says she needs
:00:47. > :00:48.a strong mandate in the Brexit process ahead.
:00:49. > :00:51.No general election should be about just one issue -
:00:52. > :00:54.it's not a referendum, after all - and there are so many
:00:55. > :00:56.challenges facing Wales and the UK beyond the Brexit question.
:00:57. > :00:58.But there's no escaping the immediacy of the
:00:59. > :01:05.The clock is ticking on the Article 50 process.
:01:06. > :01:08.So for the first of our election editions, we'll explore the Brexit
:01:09. > :01:14.Over the next few weeks we'll also be examining other key issues
:01:15. > :01:17.in a series of special programmes culminating in a live leaders
:01:18. > :01:23.If you'd like to be in the audience then please get in touch.
:01:24. > :01:30.Before I introduce my guests this evening, let's hear
:01:31. > :01:32.from some Welsh voters, and we've been speaking to some
:01:33. > :01:36.in Blaenau Gwent which recorded one of the biggest Leave
:01:37. > :01:59.I don't think Wales's voice is going to be heard but I do think there are
:02:00. > :02:04.issues. Especially in this area. We have had a lot of European funding
:02:05. > :02:09.in this area which is going to stop. And I have heard nobody saying they
:02:10. > :02:14.are going to replace it with anything else. I would have to say,
:02:15. > :02:18.I did vote to leave because I could see benefits of leaving. I think
:02:19. > :02:22.it's taking far too long, people are stretching it out far too far and
:02:23. > :02:26.there is obviously the reason for it. It seems that Britain is
:02:27. > :02:31.expected to pave a large amount to leave than they were in the
:02:32. > :02:34.beginning -- expected to pay. I always feel Waleed is the poor
:02:35. > :02:38.relative and it's about time we spoke up as most people. -- Wales is
:02:39. > :02:50.the poor relative. I . -- I voted Tuesday. If it goes
:02:51. > :02:53.successfully I will put my hand up and say, you were right and I was
:02:54. > :02:58.wrong but at the moment they are so busy squabbling with each other.
:02:59. > :03:02.Instead of saying, sit down at the table, the
:03:03. > :03:11.-- doesn't matter if it is Ukip, Labour, but find the best way
:03:12. > :03:16.forward for everybody concerned. We should have our own opinions and our
:03:17. > :03:21.own way of ruling our country and not allow the rest of Europe to
:03:22. > :03:27.control what we do. With this toing and froing from all parties,
:03:28. > :03:34.Conservatives, Labour, liberals, whatever it is, I'm in the middle. I
:03:35. > :03:42.don't know which way to go but at the end of the day the people who
:03:43. > :03:48.have voted for Brexit. I don't see the point in voting really because
:03:49. > :03:56.nothing ever goes our way anyway so what's the point in voting if stuff
:03:57. > :04:00.that we don't want happens? Our thanks to the people of Blaenau
:04:01. > :04:01.Gwent for talking to us this week. We asked the five main parties
:04:02. > :04:03.in Wales to nominate a representative for the programme
:04:04. > :04:06.and they are, for the Labour For the Liberal Democrats,
:04:07. > :04:17.Eluned Parrott. And if you want to join
:04:18. > :04:26.the debate on social media You can add your comments as we go
:04:27. > :04:30.along. Thank you for joining us, we have a lot of ground to cover. I
:04:31. > :04:35.want to start with a brief comment from all of you on the Prime
:04:36. > :04:39.Minister's own statement, the principle that informs the approach
:04:40. > :04:44.to Brexit when she said famously, no deal is better than a bad deal.
:04:45. > :04:50.However we want to define a bad deal, we will come onto that, but as
:04:51. > :04:53.a printable, is it right? Absolutely right that she has gone into the
:04:54. > :04:56.negotiation making it clear to the EU but if they don't want to deliver
:04:57. > :05:01.access to the single market, we will pull out and continue to trade with
:05:02. > :05:05.Europe and the rest of the world under WTO ruled and it would be
:05:06. > :05:09.ludicrous going into a negotiation not making that clear otherwise we
:05:10. > :05:15.will not get a deal in the first place. Nobly believes that Britain
:05:16. > :05:21.actually means that. -- nobody believes. If we end a negotiation
:05:22. > :05:24.with the consequence of which will be crashing our economy with
:05:25. > :05:28.devastating effect on jobs and the standard of living, we should not be
:05:29. > :05:32.signing up to the deal. We should continue to negotiate until we get
:05:33. > :05:35.the best deal not just for Britain, but we don't want a reduction in the
:05:36. > :05:39.kind of support we have seen coming from Europe to Wales specifically
:05:40. > :05:46.all stock we will try to pick up on all of that. The principal, no deal
:05:47. > :05:52.better than a bad deal? I think it's absolutely crazy and recklessly
:05:53. > :05:58.irresponsible. The truth is that to crash out of the European Union
:05:59. > :06:02.without the legal and financial ends tied together will leave us in a
:06:03. > :06:08.chaotic situation where we don't know what we are faced with in the
:06:09. > :06:12.future. We need to have some form of deal, we need to have some kind of
:06:13. > :06:15.certainty for our business is otherwise the economic damage to the
:06:16. > :06:22.economy will be catastrophic. Your point on the principle? To echo what
:06:23. > :06:27.she is saying, I think it shows she is weak and unstable in her attitude
:06:28. > :06:33.toward negotiations. It is important to define and consider what a bad
:06:34. > :06:37.Brexit might mean and the different kinds of bad, what she might
:06:38. > :06:42.continue to be a good Brexit I fear could be bad for Wales. We need to
:06:43. > :06:46.be in a position where we work toward a departure from the EU which
:06:47. > :06:51.genuinely reflect the different needs of the different parts of the
:06:52. > :06:54.UK. Wales being a net exporter, for example, we should be able to
:06:55. > :07:00.rubber-stamp bad deal and that is where I hope Plaid Cymru we will
:07:01. > :07:04.defend Wales in that respect. I had hoped that in the past year it would
:07:05. > :07:07.not have been a wasted year as it appears to be now because
:07:08. > :07:14.negotiations have not taken place really. I feel in this way that
:07:15. > :07:20.Theresa May has failed us. I want the best deal we can have for the UK
:07:21. > :07:25.and obviously for Wales. I'm Welsh through and through and I want us to
:07:26. > :07:28.see -- I want to see us doing well but particularly as I'm in the
:07:29. > :07:34.assembly, devolved powers are obviously paramount important and I
:07:35. > :07:41.want the best deal with tariff free access to the single market. Just to
:07:42. > :07:49.reinforce, no deal would be better than a bad deal. Do you agree with
:07:50. > :07:56.that? No, I want a positive deal for Wales and the UK. If it was a bad
:07:57. > :08:00.deal... You can't have no deal and a bad deal, there is somewhere in
:08:01. > :08:05.between which will benefit Wales and the UK. Within those areas and I
:08:06. > :08:09.will pick up on some of those points, 60% of Welsh exports
:08:10. > :08:13.currently go to the EU, a very big figure and bigger than other parts
:08:14. > :08:17.of the UK. Looking at our access to the single market, it has clearly
:08:18. > :08:22.been important to our economic well-being so, David, if that access
:08:23. > :08:26.is no longer there, what does it mean for Wales? The access will be
:08:27. > :08:29.there because there is a fundamental mistake people are making which is
:08:30. > :08:33.to think that if we walk away without any sort of deal we won't be
:08:34. > :08:38.able to trade with France or Germany any more and that's not correct. It
:08:39. > :08:41.depends on the deal. It doesn't, we don't have a deal with America, we
:08:42. > :08:46.trade with them, we trade with any country in world under WTO rules. We
:08:47. > :08:50.can carry on trading with EU countries without a deal because
:08:51. > :08:54.they cannot put up a protective wall against us. We will trade with them
:08:55. > :09:01.but under WTO rules which means we pay a tariff. The general tariffs we
:09:02. > :09:07.would pay would be less than as a percentage than the amount that
:09:08. > :09:10.sterling has fallen. Even if we don't have a deal, our goods would
:09:11. > :09:14.still be more competitive than they were before the vote. This is where
:09:15. > :09:17.we come to the nitty-gritty, how much would those tariffs become for
:09:18. > :09:25.example, on agriculture food products? We're looking at possible
:09:26. > :09:28.tariffs of 40%. What do the food producers and farmers in your
:09:29. > :09:34.constituency of that? We can't think no deal is an option. The tariff
:09:35. > :09:38.thing is such a big issue because until we know what you're talking
:09:39. > :09:44.about... I'm glad we've moved on and we've accepted we can trade without
:09:45. > :09:53.a deal. Thank you, that's exactly the point. Now we have established
:09:54. > :09:57.point that anybody can trade with anybody, we can talk about tariffs.
:09:58. > :10:02.Let's talk about that because the average tariff is about 6% and on
:10:03. > :10:06.industrial goods and that'll do think sometimes lower. There are
:10:07. > :10:10.certain agricultural areas, particularly with lamb, where it is
:10:11. > :10:16.higher, even higher than 50%. But the point is that we export a lot of
:10:17. > :10:22.lamb to the European Union, about a third I think, and it is significant
:10:23. > :10:26.but we import far more from the European Union in agricultural goods
:10:27. > :10:32.than we export. That is by measure of about three to one. So while
:10:33. > :10:40.there are risks to the lamb sector, other sectors will do very well. We
:10:41. > :10:43.need to ensure that lamb farmers are using the extra tariff money we
:10:44. > :10:50.would be getting when you try to export to us. The truth is that it
:10:51. > :10:53.is not about average tariffs being local is about specific tariffs in
:10:54. > :10:58.areas that are strategically important to the Welsh economy.
:10:59. > :11:04.Welsh farming industry cannot take a hit from the European Union export
:11:05. > :11:11.market when its produce is suddenly 50% more expensive. So what is the
:11:12. > :11:14.answer? That we had to say straightaway that lamb is a problem,
:11:15. > :11:18.an issue, because the tariffs are very high and we export about a
:11:19. > :11:22.third of our lamb to the EU. Let's not pretend we will not be able to
:11:23. > :11:25.trade with Europe, we have established that, and let's not
:11:26. > :11:32.pretend that tariffs are very high because generally they are below
:11:33. > :11:35.10%. The areas where there is a problem like lamb, we have to be
:11:36. > :11:42.aware of that and be ready to put in place... If I am a Welsh farmer in
:11:43. > :11:48.this area, you acknowledge it is a problem, that is not much comfort to
:11:49. > :11:53.me. It is more comfort than saying we cannot trade with the EU. What is
:11:54. > :11:57.clear is that the Tories have admitted it that they are prepared
:11:58. > :12:03.to sacrifice the agricultural community on the altar of Brexit.
:12:04. > :12:06.That's not true. Going beyond tariffs, it is about the paperwork
:12:07. > :12:14.involved also in new cross from one border to another. It is absolutely
:12:15. > :12:19.true. The ports in Wales, people are telling me that if we crashed out of
:12:20. > :12:23.the customs union as well, we will have to check all the goods going
:12:24. > :12:28.out, all the people coming in, all of that requires a huge amount of
:12:29. > :12:32.time and effort and resources and will slow down the whole process.
:12:33. > :12:36.Not just for agriculture but also for the supply chains which exist
:12:37. > :12:40.within Wales. It is not just about the money, is about timing.
:12:41. > :12:46.One more point. The other point. You keep on arguing this. It's
:12:47. > :12:52.fascinating. That, oh, they trade with us. They do trade with us, but
:12:53. > :12:57.48% of the UK's trade is with them. Only 8% is the maximum of any
:12:58. > :13:02.country in the EU. So we will suffer a huge amount more than they will.
:13:03. > :13:05.You have to remember that the European Union is a political
:13:06. > :13:11.construct, it's not just an economic one. In the same way as the people
:13:12. > :13:15.in this country voted on political reasons for leaving the EU, they
:13:16. > :13:17.will be supporting the EU for political reasons as well. It's not
:13:18. > :13:24.just all about the economy. Caroline. This is all about
:13:25. > :13:32.successful negotiations because, at the moment, we have the EU has a
:13:33. > :13:38.50-60 billion annual surplus with the UK. All right. So when we send -
:13:39. > :13:44.when we deal with Germany and purchase car there is is ?20 billion
:13:45. > :13:49.surplus. The negotiations that are taking place between the UK and the
:13:50. > :13:55.EU is in the interests, for us, to strike a deal together for all the
:13:56. > :14:01.economies in the EU and worldwide. Toll succeed because it's a two-way
:14:02. > :14:07.thing. Despite the imbalance that she was talking about this? I'm talk
:14:08. > :14:13.about striking a deal with everyone. We import German cars, ?20 billion
:14:14. > :14:18.surplus. They will lose far, far less than us. This is the question
:14:19. > :14:21.that you failed to address, time and time again, you have to understand
:14:22. > :14:25.that the political construct and the one thing that Theresa May has
:14:26. > :14:30.succeeded in doing is to unite Europe. To unite Europe. Toll say -
:14:31. > :14:35.we're all going to come together and fight this one thing. Yeah. They are
:14:36. > :14:40.certainly not united about that. Let's park the dynamics and strategy
:14:41. > :14:43.at the minute. It has to be about successful negotiations because
:14:44. > :14:48.there are things we apparently would lose on, but would gain on in other
:14:49. > :14:51.areas. We have to strike a balance and we want tariff-free access to
:14:52. > :14:54.the single market. We have now established that we will be able to
:14:55. > :15:01.trade with the rest of the European Union. So it was incorrect - At
:15:02. > :15:05.cost. Because we began this discussion saying we wouldn't be
:15:06. > :15:10.able to trade with - I never said that. We have established that. We
:15:11. > :15:14.will be looking Atta ifs, if we trade under WTO rules. Most of us, I
:15:15. > :15:17.think we are actually agreed, we would rather have access to the
:15:18. > :15:20.single market. We would rather have a deal. So the approach that Theresa
:15:21. > :15:25.May has adoptside to sit down and say - we want to have single market
:15:26. > :15:30.access deal, which will allow you to sell your cars and wine to us while
:15:31. > :15:34.we sell our goods to you if we don't get one we will walk away. Jeremy
:15:35. > :15:38.Corbyn's approach is we want single market access deal, if we don't get
:15:39. > :15:43.one we might just stay in. They want us to stay in. Guess what, they will
:15:44. > :15:46.not give us a deal if we sit down and take that attitude. Everyone
:15:47. > :15:52.should be supporting Theresa May if she want a that deal. This year
:15:53. > :15:56.could have been more productively spent by the Prime Minister. You
:15:57. > :16:00.think it's been wasted year? I do. I want people's concerns to be
:16:01. > :16:04.minimal. Instead of that - Will is a process. You can't just do it? She
:16:05. > :16:08.had the mandate from the people of Wales, from the people, the mandate
:16:09. > :16:11.from the House of Commons and Lords this election is totally
:16:12. > :16:20.unnecessary. I want to talk to you - It's worse than a wasted year
:16:21. > :16:24.because what Theresa May has done by her sabre-rattling her antagonism is
:16:25. > :16:28.destroyed any good faith between the two negotiating parties and made all
:16:29. > :16:31.of those talks - You mean in the statement in Downing Street she
:16:32. > :16:34.made? The statement in Downing Street but month after month what
:16:35. > :16:40.we've heard is, time and time again, a lack of respect. What we have to
:16:41. > :16:43.do is build a rapport. You get a lack of respect in the European
:16:44. > :16:48.Union - To be able to negotiate on a fairway. The point has been made.
:16:49. > :16:51.Can I bring it back to what we are hopefully meant to be talking about
:16:52. > :16:57.here, which is the affect of all of this on Wales. It's defending
:16:58. > :17:03.Wales's interest. I thought it was all in the Wales context myself. I
:17:04. > :17:09.accept - We are part of the UK. When you are talking about the EU being
:17:10. > :17:13.net exporters to Britain, let us concentrate here, as Huw said at the
:17:14. > :17:19.outset, on Wales being a net exporter to the EU, for example,
:17:20. > :17:22.Wales being more of a beneficiary of European funding, for example, than
:17:23. > :17:27.the rest of the EU. Those specific elements that we need to take to the
:17:28. > :17:30.table in negotiations on leaving the EU that have Welsh interests at
:17:31. > :17:35.heart. We had those people in Blaenau Gwent, it's something I hear
:17:36. > :17:39.time and time again. Nobody is listening to us here in Wales.s I
:17:40. > :17:45.feel that. We need to make sure that our voice is heard. OK. Or our
:17:46. > :17:50.interests will be ignored. Caroline, seriously, if we keep on this we
:17:51. > :17:56.won't get anywhere. OK. Tens of thousands of EU nationals in Wales
:17:57. > :17:58.and, you know, that is clearly a block of people whose rights have to
:17:59. > :18:03.be addressed. British people in other parts of the EU, their rights,
:18:04. > :18:06.too. I'm putting that in the context of the importance of freedom of
:18:07. > :18:11.movement as well given that is one of the main planks of our deal, in
:18:12. > :18:15.terms of the single market. On freedom of movement has Plaid Cymru
:18:16. > :18:22.changed its tune? We are very clear that we need workers from across the
:18:23. > :18:28.EU and beyond to keep our public services afloat. To help in our
:18:29. > :18:30.economy in many, many ways and the agriculture sector and the
:18:31. > :18:37.hospitality sector, for example. We need to be able, in the post-EU
:18:38. > :18:41.world to, to have our say here in Wales on the kinds of... On the kind
:18:42. > :18:45.of immigration that will help us here in Wales. I've heard what
:18:46. > :18:48.people have said about wanting to take back control. One of those
:18:49. > :18:54.elements of control that I think we can have, if we put defending Wales
:18:55. > :19:00.at the heart of our thinking, is to have, for example, regional visas.
:19:01. > :19:06.We can say we need those workers in these sector. How practical is that?
:19:07. > :19:11.It works in Canada. A process by which people a visa to work in the
:19:12. > :19:15.UK. Here in Wales, for example the health service. We can attract those
:19:16. > :19:19.people. Would the Lib Dems welcome that policy? I think it's a
:19:20. > :19:23.bureaucratic nightmare waiting to happen. . Need free movement of
:19:24. > :19:28.people between Europe and Britain. Tens of thousands of our NHS workers
:19:29. > :19:32.here in Wales are EU nationals or from other parts of the world. We
:19:33. > :19:35.need them to keep our services running. In addition to that, they
:19:36. > :19:41.are economically important to us as well. Our universities, that free
:19:42. > :19:44.exchange of ideas, the things that create wealth for Wales and create
:19:45. > :19:49.jobs for Wales they are dependent on our ability to be able to I a tract
:19:50. > :19:52.the best minds to Wales and for our children and our children's children
:19:53. > :19:57.to have the aspiration to be able to move around Europe and go elsewhere,
:19:58. > :20:01.too. We have to remember the rights of EU citizens but British citizens
:20:02. > :20:03.in Europe as well. Both of those things are incredibly important. On
:20:04. > :20:07.the need question, this is the crucial thing. Where we are
:20:08. > :20:10.dependent, like the health service, dependent on people to come here and
:20:11. > :20:15.work and offer their services, what is your thought there on freedom of
:20:16. > :20:22.movement? We want social cohesion to work and, in the interests of Wales
:20:23. > :20:26.and the UK as a whole, we feel that immigration has to be controlled and
:20:27. > :20:32.it has to be on a skills need basis. Obviously, if someone has a skill
:20:33. > :20:36.that we need, then that person has access here. But it has to be an a
:20:37. > :20:41.fair system and a points system he. We have to ensure that, for example,
:20:42. > :20:46.in nursing, that we give our own people that want to be nurses,
:20:47. > :20:49.people from Wales, a fair crack of the whip really and don't turn them
:20:50. > :20:55.away. When we bring people in, we still have to train them. Don't
:20:56. > :21:00.forget we are taking people from countries that - Some people come
:21:01. > :21:04.ready trained? They have to be trained to understand the thinking
:21:05. > :21:10.of the UK and the way in which the UK operates. David, it's whether you
:21:11. > :21:15.think that controlling freedom of movement is a price worth paying for
:21:16. > :21:19.continued access in some form to the market or where do you see the
:21:20. > :21:24.importance of controlling freedom of movement in this debate? Well, if
:21:25. > :21:28.you are talking about movement nobody is suggesting anyone won't be
:21:29. > :21:31.able to move around. Freedom of movement is a technical phrase?
:21:32. > :21:37.Immigration is far too high at the moment, and needs to come down.
:21:38. > :21:42.You've had a lot long time to sort it out. They claim benefits for
:21:43. > :21:45.children who don't live here and people who come for a short time and
:21:46. > :21:49.work and can claim benefits. Outside of the EU? I don't think it's
:21:50. > :21:52.acceptable you can come over here, work for a few months and be able to
:21:53. > :21:59.claim all sorts of benefits. That's unacceptable. Having said that, my
:22:00. > :22:04.wife is Hungarian, an EU citizen Hungary is still in the EU. She is a
:22:05. > :22:10.Hungarian citizen she doesn't have a British passport. There is no threat
:22:11. > :22:15.whatsoever to law abiding, hard-working Polish, hung garan and
:22:16. > :22:22.other EU citizens who come here to work. These scare stories... This is
:22:23. > :22:29.an important point. My wife doesn't need a British passport, she doesn't
:22:30. > :22:34.need one - Lots of your colleagues in Government have not offered, in
:22:35. > :22:39.those specific terms - Too many scare stories have been put out
:22:40. > :22:44.there. She's not given that assurance. She wants to protect the
:22:45. > :22:48.rights of British citizens in other parts of the European Union. She has
:22:49. > :22:53.offered to have a negotiation with the rest of the EU about that before
:22:54. > :22:55.any discussions start about Brexit. The negotiation means nothing is
:22:56. > :22:59.certain. That is the point of a negotiation. Common sense tells us
:23:00. > :23:05.all there is no way that we're going to start rounding up Polish or other
:23:06. > :23:09.EU citizens - It's a question of people's rights. Whether they have
:23:10. > :23:14.them. Whether they can stay or not. We have to understand is that
:23:15. > :23:19.economically migrants from the EU contribute far, far more than they
:23:20. > :23:23.take out across the United Kingdom they contribute ?6 billion, which is
:23:24. > :23:27.what is paying for people's pensions and schools and hospitals. So you
:23:28. > :23:32.can stop them if you want, there will be consequences to that. You
:23:33. > :23:35.need to be honest with the public about the consequences. Are you
:23:36. > :23:39.saying my wife will get thrown out. It's rubbish. You have given a
:23:40. > :23:45.guarantee that Theresa May has failed to give. I would like to say
:23:46. > :23:50.David has come out with immigration is too high. Since 2010 Theresa May
:23:51. > :23:55.has promised to bring, with Cameron, to bring the levels down to tens of
:23:56. > :24:00.thousands of people per year. Instead of that, two million people
:24:01. > :24:03.since 2010 have entered. That commitment is still there? We can't
:24:04. > :24:07.control incompetent immigration from within the European Union until we
:24:08. > :24:14.leave. You can control it from outside, you aren't doing that. Let
:24:15. > :24:18.David answer. I'm sure if the Labour Party would like to work with us to
:24:19. > :24:22.bring about legislation that prevents some of the widespread
:24:23. > :24:28.abuses going on at the moment. You had plenty of time to sort it out,
:24:29. > :24:31.you haven't done it. David Davies is talking about scare stories about
:24:32. > :24:37.people being thrown out of the UK. His party is responsible for the
:24:38. > :24:41.scare stories based on no evidence about the negativity effects that
:24:42. > :24:43.these immigration from the EU have when they are clearly net
:24:44. > :24:50.contributors to our economy. One thing - We don't know that for sure,
:24:51. > :24:57.actually. Yes, we do. No, we don't. If I could just continue. Today the
:24:58. > :25:00.OBR had a report talking about the value of migrants to the economy.
:25:01. > :25:06.Skwloo r What people tend to do is look at the fact that the majority
:25:07. > :25:11.of EU workers are paying taxes. They don't cost the benefits, not
:25:12. > :25:17.necessarily employment benefits, the cost of social housing, education
:25:18. > :25:20.and so on. It's never been done. As Plaid Cymru's Shadow Health
:25:21. > :25:28.Secretary, we need people from the rest of the EU to work in our public
:25:29. > :25:31.services. Will we be able to retain those EU citizens currently working
:25:32. > :25:39.in the NHS now. I hope so. I can't imagine a situation where they would
:25:40. > :25:43.be rounded up, to use your words. Why No question. How many people out
:25:44. > :25:46.there who might have considered working in Wales to help us deliver
:25:47. > :25:50.the health service will not now be coming? We can't know about that.
:25:51. > :25:55.Your thoughts? What is really sad in all of this is that there are human
:25:56. > :26:00.beings here, individual human beings whose own status feels threatened.
:26:01. > :26:05.People who are - they are doctors, nurses, translators. They are people
:26:06. > :26:10.working in really useful jobs for our society who feel like they are
:26:11. > :26:13.not wanted. Who feel like, regardless of the negotiations that
:26:14. > :26:17.are yet to take place, that something has changed in this last
:26:18. > :26:25.year. Suddenly, they are no longer wanted. Suddenly - This is not true.
:26:26. > :26:29.Why do you say that? I know loads of Eastern Europeans, I'm married to
:26:30. > :26:33.one. They don't feel that. They feel threatened they are told by
:26:34. > :26:37.reluctant remainers there is a threat to their livelihood. There's
:26:38. > :26:41.not. I met a French woman who is teaching in a London school the
:26:42. > :26:46.other day, she has been here for 12 years she says very clearly - I'm
:26:47. > :26:52.scared about whether I will be able to stay or not. Is she has probably
:26:53. > :26:56.been watching the BBC. We can trade cheap jokes all night, we can. Out
:26:57. > :27:01.of respect to viewers, people do say that. It's easy to just dismiss it?
:27:02. > :27:07.As someone who has been a member of Parliament for many years there is
:27:08. > :27:13.no threat whatsoever to hard-working, law abiding citizens
:27:14. > :27:16.to anybody Testimonisome not giving that guarantee. You are not the
:27:17. > :27:20.Prime Minister. She should be giving it and she's not doing it. She has
:27:21. > :27:23.made that clear. She has not. People are worried because the Prime
:27:24. > :27:26.Minister of this country has not given us the assurance we needed
:27:27. > :27:30.that they are going to be able to stay. We have every confidence that
:27:31. > :27:37.Theresa May is - You made the point very clear. Two billion give or take
:27:38. > :27:43.in structural funds Wales has benefitted from that. 2014 the
:27:44. > :27:47.figures we have been able to analyse in detail, Wales net beneficiary of
:27:48. > :27:52.funds the only bit of the UK ?250 million. That's the kind of broad
:27:53. > :27:58.picture. To what extent is that in danger? To what extent can Wales be
:27:59. > :28:03.sure, as was said in a studio similar to this last year, that
:28:04. > :28:10.Wales would not be at lost, he was clear about it. Unequivocal
:28:11. > :28:13.actually. David will come last. I want everyone to make their point.
:28:14. > :28:17.Eluned Parrott your thoughts on Wales's access to the money that's
:28:18. > :28:22.been actually rather important to investing in communities?
:28:23. > :28:28.Our structural funds are crucial to Wales, half of our apprenticeships
:28:29. > :28:34.are funded by EU money and a lot of the infrastructure projects we have
:28:35. > :28:38.seen develop in the valleys areas and in Westworld in particular, what
:28:39. > :28:43.we really need to see from Theresa May is an assurance that that money
:28:44. > :28:49.will continue to come. And actually, agricultural funding as well.
:28:50. > :28:52.Otherwise we have a real hole in the budget for Wales for funding some
:28:53. > :28:57.crucial improvements for our poorest and most deprived communities. One
:28:58. > :29:02.of the elements of the bad Brexit that I fear is being brewed up by
:29:03. > :29:08.the Conservatives at Westminster as opposed to the best deal we could
:29:09. > :29:12.have, we will be seeking is not just in relation to the negotiations with
:29:13. > :29:16.the European Union but also the internal discussions within the UK,
:29:17. > :29:22.the kind of guarantees of what happens to funding for example or
:29:23. > :29:27.Common Agricultural Policy, support for farmers. I am sure we will get a
:29:28. > :29:30.guarantee from David Davis as he has given a guarantee on immigration
:29:31. > :29:35.that the funding will come. He is not in a position to give that
:29:36. > :29:42.guarantee. We know for example that when it comes to not just money but
:29:43. > :29:45.the powers on how to spend it, UK Conservatives are planning to hold
:29:46. > :29:49.those powers when they come back from Brussels in Westminster until
:29:50. > :29:54.such a time as they can be divvied out to the nations. I don't accept
:29:55. > :30:01.that that is a rock-solid pledge that we need here in Wales to defend
:30:02. > :30:07.our interests as a nation. This was put to Parliament, it was voted down
:30:08. > :30:10.after Plaid Cymru suggested it, let's have a guarantee on future
:30:11. > :30:14.funding, we have not had that. I don't blame those people in Blaenau
:30:15. > :30:22.Gwent for thinking nobody is listening to us. I think what is
:30:23. > :30:26.important is that people voted for Brexit on the basis of those
:30:27. > :30:33.assurances. I would like to see in the Tory manifesto those assurances
:30:34. > :30:37.being written into a manifesto. I'm very confident that in terms of what
:30:38. > :30:43.should be coming to Wales that we may see that covered in the Labour
:30:44. > :30:45.manifesto. I would like to challenge David Davies to make that commitment
:30:46. > :30:51.today that it will also be in the Tory manifesto. What is important is
:30:52. > :30:54.it that, you are the people who make those promises, you have to fulfil
:30:55. > :31:00.them. The confident in politician and it all already at a low and if
:31:01. > :31:04.people were duped into Brexit on the basis of promises that will not be
:31:05. > :31:09.carried out, I think it is a real problem for politics and all of a
:31:10. > :31:12.sudden the future. You will get your child in a second, David. Caroline,
:31:13. > :31:18.a thought about what could happen to money that has been valuable to
:31:19. > :31:21.Wales in the past -- you will get your chance. This is where
:31:22. > :31:23.collaboration is of paramount importance, we all have our
:31:24. > :31:28.political differences but it is about sitting at a table and working
:31:29. > :31:34.collaboratively with every party to ensure that the best deal for Wales
:31:35. > :31:38.is available, working out what we need for Wales and sitting round the
:31:39. > :31:48.table and discussing it. I would like to see an array of MPs elected
:31:49. > :31:52.in this collection from various parties so we can truly hold the
:31:53. > :31:56.government to account. Holding to account is one thing, if we are no
:31:57. > :31:59.longer in the EU at the end of the Brexiters process and don't have
:32:00. > :32:04.access to these funds that I mentioned, the 2 billion, what is
:32:05. > :32:08.your answer to the people who will say, where will we get that support
:32:09. > :32:13.in the future? Will Westminster deliver that? The money we save from
:32:14. > :32:21.being members in the EU will come back to the Westminster government
:32:22. > :32:25.and it is up to us to ensure that Wales gets this deal, the best deal
:32:26. > :32:30.for our farmers, for agriculture, for our investment. I live in one of
:32:31. > :32:33.the poorest regions in Aberavon and it is of paramount importance to me
:32:34. > :32:38.to ensure that the people of Wales do not suffer and that Brexit is
:32:39. > :32:42.going to be a positive thing as opposed to negative. Caroline is
:32:43. > :32:47.framing it in terms of what might be achieved if people work together
:32:48. > :32:50.which clearly isn't the same as that the government saying don't worry,
:32:51. > :32:54.you're not going to be at a loss, any funding you may have lost
:32:55. > :33:00.because of our ending of membership will be made up. Wales is a net
:33:01. > :33:03.beneficiary, that will not change in terms of the kind of investment put
:33:04. > :33:08.into communities. What is the answer? First of all the government
:33:09. > :33:15.has already given these guarantees, on agriculture for example. We pay
:33:16. > :33:20.?18 billion a year into the EU, we get about 9 billion back. We will
:33:21. > :33:23.not only be able to continue funding all of the European projects that
:33:24. > :33:26.are currently funded but we will have a lot more money to put more
:33:27. > :33:37.money in. How much more will come to Wales? I don't know. One of the
:33:38. > :33:40.issues, I can't give that... I can say with absolute certainty because
:33:41. > :33:43.the ministers are already confirmed this, they will continue the funding
:33:44. > :33:51.at the same levels. What happens to be extra money, I don't know. It
:33:52. > :33:54.will depend on if we have do pace thing to get access to the single
:33:55. > :33:58.market. The ministers have been clear about that. There is a
:33:59. > :34:01.question as to how much the those powers get devolved to the Welsh
:34:02. > :34:06.Assembly and how we distribute it. Do we give out a blank cheque? Do we
:34:07. > :34:09.maintain some similar pattern to what we have at the moment where
:34:10. > :34:15.Brussels decides things and the nation state divvy it out and
:34:16. > :34:21.maintain the day-to-day running of the scheme? Do we move that to
:34:22. > :34:25.London, to the nation states? I think it will probably be
:34:26. > :34:28.impractical to have Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales
:34:29. > :34:34.all doing slightly different things. Isn't that devolution? With the
:34:35. > :34:43.subsidy payments. That is the feeling that the NFU and the F2
:34:44. > :34:49.watts at as well. -- and the FUW. You can't have a situation where
:34:50. > :34:54.markets are being distorted. You wouldn't want Nicola Sturgeon giving
:34:55. > :34:56.huge amount to support Scottish beef market if Wales was putting money
:34:57. > :35:02.elsewhere, you don't want market distortion. You will get what we
:35:03. > :35:06.already have now. That is the guarantee? The government have been
:35:07. > :35:12.clear that no powers will be taken away. To be clear, we will come to
:35:13. > :35:19.powers in a moment, with talking cash. Hard cash. Will that be in
:35:20. > :35:27.your manifesto? I don't write the manifesto. You keep on ducking out.
:35:28. > :35:31.All these is your -- assurances that will not be in the manifesto. I have
:35:32. > :35:36.given you very straight answers. You're making it up, David. You're
:35:37. > :35:43.making up policy. Do you fully accept Brexit like your leader? I
:35:44. > :35:50.do. It is the good point to clarify, I'm bound to ask you as well because
:35:51. > :35:53.yesterday when Laura Coombs big interviewed Jeremy Corbyn there was
:35:54. > :35:57.a direct question which was, if there was a Labour government, are
:35:58. > :36:00.you saying that we definitely come out of the EU. He found it difficult
:36:01. > :36:04.to answer that question for some reason, he would not give that
:36:05. > :36:09.specific assurance. It was clarified later by his office. What is your
:36:10. > :36:13.take on that? We voted through the House of Commons and House of Lords,
:36:14. > :36:17.there was a Labour whip on it, the people have spoken and we will be
:36:18. > :36:23.coming out of the EU. Under a Labour government that is not in doubt? No.
:36:24. > :36:27.It is about the conditions. And hopefully Jeremy Corbyn will find it
:36:28. > :36:31.as easy to answer. The nice thing is that you are all offering me
:36:32. > :36:37.guarantees on all kinds of things! Powers are very important. We are in
:36:38. > :36:40.the last section of the programme, so your thoughts as a Liberal
:36:41. > :36:44.Democrat about not just access to very important funds we have had in
:36:45. > :36:48.the past but also what happens, as quite a few of you have raised,
:36:49. > :36:53.about the power was coming back from Brussels? Will they stick at
:36:54. > :36:58.Westminster for some of the bees and David has offered? What is your
:36:59. > :37:04.perspective? I think there is a very real danger that this negotiation
:37:05. > :37:08.process and the repatriation of powers might mask a power grab back
:37:09. > :37:12.to Westminster powers that are currently in Wales. There may be
:37:13. > :37:15.practical reasons why it is difficult to take powers, for
:37:16. > :37:18.example without the funding that comes with it, and the two things
:37:19. > :37:25.are linked. Looking at agriculture, we the powers over agriculture but
:37:26. > :37:28.if we don't get the funding to deliver the agricultural payments,
:37:29. > :37:31.that is a challenge. I want to come back to the point about ministerial
:37:32. > :37:36.assurances because they are not quite what David Davis has told you.
:37:37. > :37:40.Which ones? The assurance that funding will continue at the current
:37:41. > :37:45.level, that is not correct. The assurance that Wales has been given
:37:46. > :37:50.is that projects that are currently an already been signed off will be
:37:51. > :37:53.funded. There is absolutely no future assurance for any of the
:37:54. > :37:57.structural funds or indeed the agricultural funding that comes to
:37:58. > :38:02.Wales. None of that has been assured, it is a very small envelope
:38:03. > :38:06.of things which have been assured and there are still ongoing
:38:07. > :38:09.negotiations about a particular project which the Welsh government
:38:10. > :38:12.as I understand it is believed to have signed and that funding
:38:13. > :38:18.envelope is still under question in many cases. Please, don't give us
:38:19. > :38:24.assurances that are much more broadbrush than the reality. Have
:38:25. > :38:28.you been overpromising, David? No George used as was clear about this.
:38:29. > :38:31.I'm not the ministers is easy for everyone to say that I can't promise
:38:32. > :38:37.anything. I can tell you what has been said. I can assure you that all
:38:38. > :38:41.Conservative MPs as far as I'm aware have been clear that we want levels
:38:42. > :38:43.of funding to stay the same, we don't want to throw people out of
:38:44. > :38:47.the country, you won't find this stuff being said by any Conservative
:38:48. > :38:52.MP. We want a smooth transition, we have not wasted the last year. We
:38:53. > :38:56.could have left on the 24th of June, but instead the Conservative Party
:38:57. > :38:59.under David Cameron and Theresa May have said that we should not rush
:39:00. > :39:08.into this, to do in a responsible fashion. We may well spend another
:39:09. > :39:13.two years negotiating and it doesn't matter because we will do this in a
:39:14. > :39:16.smooth and sensible fashion. The powers that will be repatriated,
:39:17. > :39:21.what will happen and what should happen to them? It is a matter of
:39:22. > :39:25.taking back control. For those people who took that particular
:39:26. > :39:30.phrase seriously, wanting to repay trade powers from Brussels, I don't
:39:31. > :39:34.believe that they wanted to see those powers being brought back from
:39:35. > :39:42.Westminster and given to Westminster when those powers are over devolved
:39:43. > :39:46.areas already, agriculture, economic development and so on, they should
:39:47. > :39:51.be coming back to Wales. I think it is section 4.2 of the great repeal
:39:52. > :39:56.paper that says quite clearly that powers are in danger of going back
:39:57. > :40:00.to Westminster with them being divvied out later. I don't accept
:40:01. > :40:06.that the practical way forward. We have these two years, it was always
:40:07. > :40:11.going to be that, that was way the Article 15 process works, and we
:40:12. > :40:15.need an assurance that those powers, we need the working out of how they
:40:16. > :40:19.will come straight back to the communities in Wales. -- Article 50.
:40:20. > :40:27.Was Carwyn Jones right to talk about some sort of constitutional crisis,
:40:28. > :40:31.if this repatriation doesn't work in the way he considers is right for
:40:32. > :40:36.Wales? What you have to remember is when we went into the EU, devolution
:40:37. > :40:39.did not exist. We are coming out to a different world, you can't go back
:40:40. > :40:43.to what was there before. We do have a construct within the UK that
:40:44. > :40:48.allows for a sample for a single market within the United Kingdom
:40:49. > :40:52.that is not under the framework of the single market of Europe. We are
:40:53. > :40:57.going to have to create a new construct and that means we will
:40:58. > :41:02.have to have new kinds of relationships between the UK and we
:41:03. > :41:07.will have to formulate a system, a mechanism, which actually respect
:41:08. > :41:12.the devolution settlement that is already there are also so that he
:41:13. > :41:17.will not see London undercutting Wales if they want to subsidise. You
:41:18. > :41:20.have to make sure that the competition within the United
:41:21. > :41:24.Kingdom works. What is important is that those powers should come back
:41:25. > :41:27.to Wales first, where I think they legally should and RB based at the
:41:28. > :41:32.moment if the UK Government wants them, they have to take is on and
:41:33. > :41:38.take us to court. But it may be that after that we can pass back some
:41:39. > :41:41.powers to the UK but it will be about us volunteering those powers
:41:42. > :41:46.back from Wales. What kind of powers? For example, in the area of
:41:47. > :41:50.agriculture we have to understand that it would make sense to have
:41:51. > :41:53.some kind of system where there would be a mechanism where you could
:41:54. > :41:58.only subsidise to a certain extent and you are not undercutting each
:41:59. > :42:01.other. The Ukip view of that? Devolution is here to stay and the
:42:02. > :42:07.devolved powers we already have we want to ensure that we retain them.
:42:08. > :42:12.And obviously we want more powers, we want our tax raising element to
:42:13. > :42:17.go ahead as well because what I would like to see is a low tax
:42:18. > :42:22.economy in Wales so that we attract high earners to Wales so we can
:42:23. > :42:26.stimulant the economy. Obviously in the interests of the people of Wales
:42:27. > :42:32.it is important to make devolution work and to insist that we have all
:42:33. > :42:35.our devolved powers back from the UK Government. And the extra power is
:42:36. > :42:44.coming back from Brussels at the end of Brexit should all go to? Wales?
:42:45. > :42:48.All that Wales is capable of managing but devolution can increase
:42:49. > :42:52.as time goes on and I think that is what will happen. We are into the
:42:53. > :42:56.last minute and I will give David a final say on this. There are powers
:42:57. > :43:00.in Wales, in London, in Brussels, we will not take any powers away from
:43:01. > :43:06.Wales. I recognised the referendum result on the EU, but those powers
:43:07. > :43:10.that have come from Brussels, they will go back to London, we will not
:43:11. > :43:14.take anything away from Wales and at some point some will go to Wales.
:43:15. > :43:17.The Conservatives have devolved rather a lot of extra powers to
:43:18. > :43:22.Wales in the last few years and they will not hesitate to do it further.
:43:23. > :43:25.These are areas we already control. No you don't, Brussels controls them
:43:26. > :43:30.and they have come to London. They are only a bit further up the
:43:31. > :43:33.motorway now. What we have heard from Blaenau Gwent and other places
:43:34. > :43:37.that people feel disempowered and the purpose of devolution was to put
:43:38. > :43:41.power closer to the people. I want to see powers not only coming from
:43:42. > :43:45.Westminster to Wales but also from the what assembly to our local
:43:46. > :43:50.communities and authorities. This is a complex and long conversation but
:43:51. > :43:55.we need a fundamental rethink about how the balance of powers will lie
:43:56. > :43:59.between the nations of this country. Brussels has never willingly given
:44:00. > :44:02.away powers but London has also it is about working collaboratively,
:44:03. > :44:05.the UK Government with the Welsh government to ensure Wales
:44:06. > :44:08.progresses along with the rest of the UK. It has been a very
:44:09. > :44:14.interesting exchange! Thank you to all of you for coming in. Four weeks
:44:15. > :44:14.to go and we will have another chap as the campaign goes on.
:44:15. > :44:19.I'll be back next week with the second of our special
:44:20. > :44:22.If you'd like to get in touch about that,
:44:23. > :44:25.or if you'd like to be in the audience for a live
:44:26. > :44:27.debate with the Welsh party leaders, email us.
:44:28. > :44:28.The address is thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk,
:44:29. > :44:31.or use the social media hashtag thewalesreport.
:44:32. > :44:34.But for now, diolch am wylio, a nos da.
:44:35. > :44:38.Thanks for joining us, and good night.