0:00:04 > 0:00:08Just over three weeks to go until the election of 2017,
0:00:08 > 0:00:10and we're talking about that vital matter -
0:00:10 > 0:00:12the state of the Welsh economy.
0:00:12 > 0:00:16In the second of our special election programmes,
0:00:16 > 0:00:19we'll be hearing from five parties and finding out what they have to
0:00:19 > 0:00:20offer you as polling day approaches.
0:00:20 > 0:00:30So stay with us for the Wales Report.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33A very good evening.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Welcome to a special election edition of the Wales Report.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39So just over three weeks to go until election day on June 8th.
0:00:39 > 0:00:46This week sees the launch of some party manifestos,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49for the policies and commitments to try to make the Welsh economy
0:00:49 > 0:00:50prosper over the next five years.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53All the parties will be making a range of policy promises but just
0:00:53 > 0:00:55how effective will they be?
0:00:55 > 0:00:56And how will they pay for them?
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Don't forget, you can tell us what you think by getting
0:00:59 > 0:01:01in touch on social media.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04The hashtag is.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08And if you would like to be in the audience for a live leaders'
0:01:08 > 0:01:11debate taking place at the end of May, well get in touch.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13The e-mail is.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16Now before I introduce the guests who will be joining me this evening
0:01:16 > 0:01:17let's hear from some Welsh voters.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19We've been to Pontypridd to ask for views there
0:01:19 > 0:01:24on the state of the economy.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27You are stuck with the same pay.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Obviously the minimum wage is going up, but you don't know
0:01:30 > 0:01:33what's going to happen really in the future.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35Because you can see poverty at the moment,
0:01:35 > 0:01:38it's just a dying town.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41I used to work there and that's gone, nothing.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44So it's a bit of a shame.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47You see all the valleys and all the towns, just
0:01:47 > 0:01:48going down and down.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51I feel the country's doing OK.
0:01:51 > 0:01:56I am a little bit concerned about coming out of Europe.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00But, you know, got to be optimistic.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02I think over the next 12 months I think things
0:02:02 > 0:02:04are going to get tough.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06To be honest with this Brexit and everything,
0:02:06 > 0:02:08it's the youngsters I worry about.
0:02:08 > 0:02:13My grandchildren, that's what I am more concerned about than myself.
0:02:13 > 0:02:19You have all these politicians coming at you in all directions,
0:02:19 > 0:02:20this, that, the other.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Where is all this money coming from?
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Where?
0:02:25 > 0:02:27You know, marvellous ideas, but where is the money coming from,
0:02:27 > 0:02:28really coming from?
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Tell the truth.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33Is there money, is there not any money?
0:02:33 > 0:02:36That's all you want.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39Can they do this, can't they do that?
0:02:39 > 0:02:44I think people that earn more money should pay more tax.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47I worked all my life and to be honest I wonder sometimes why
0:02:47 > 0:02:51they say they haven't got money for this or that.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55Yet we paid into it for over 40 years.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58And it's a funny thing, they seem to find money for certain
0:02:58 > 0:03:05things and yet they tell us they can't find money
0:03:05 > 0:03:10for other things, things that I think are more important.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13I think everybody like myself, if you are working you are
0:03:13 > 0:03:14paying sufficient tax.
0:03:14 > 0:03:19Maybe they should look for cutting in other areas.
0:03:19 > 0:03:21I mean, we are taxed anyway, I am taxed quite heavy
0:03:21 > 0:03:25because I am pensionable.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28So no, I think it should be cut back from other areas where they're over
0:03:28 > 0:03:29spending on other things.
0:03:29 > 0:03:34I am not in agreement with higher taxes.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38I think that we've gone too much into a nanny state, if you like,
0:03:38 > 0:03:43it's like as if the Government is responsible for everything
0:03:43 > 0:03:46and I think that we need to be accountable for our own
0:03:46 > 0:03:48lives, as well.
0:03:48 > 0:03:53We have our deficit to pay off, and personally for the future
0:03:53 > 0:03:57of my children, etc, I am concerned.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00If it was my finances in my household, I would be looking
0:04:00 > 0:04:03at the amount we're actually borrowing and that's going up
0:04:03 > 0:04:06and I would be thinking we need to do something about that.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10I am going to be honest, it always seems they make promises
0:04:10 > 0:04:13when it's due for an election and then after they tell
0:04:13 > 0:04:15you that they haven't got the money to do it.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19You know, I don't see why they tell you that in the first place,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22why don't they tell you the truth and say things are going to be
0:04:22 > 0:04:30tough and I think people would accept it a lot more.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33And to be told one thing and then in a couple of months tell
0:04:33 > 0:04:34you they can't do it.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38I don't even know who I want to be for to be truthful, to me
0:04:38 > 0:04:39they're all the same.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41Well, our thanks to the people of Pontypridd for sharing
0:04:41 > 0:04:44their views with us.
0:04:44 > 0:04:50Now we asked each of the main parties in Wales to put forward
0:04:50 > 0:04:52a spokesperson for this programme.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55I am pleased to say that joining us tonight for the Liberal Democrats
0:04:55 > 0:04:56is Baroness Jenny Randerson.
0:04:56 > 0:04:57Nick Ramsay from the Conservative Party.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59For Labour, we have Wayne David.
0:04:59 > 0:05:00For Ukip, we have Gareth Bennett.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02And for Plaid Cymru, we have Adam Price and it's
0:05:02 > 0:05:04good to see you all.
0:05:04 > 0:05:05Thank you very much.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07We are looking ahead to a good invigorating exchange of views.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09Last week, with some colleagues of yours,
0:05:09 > 0:05:13we talked a lot about Brexit and the potential impact on Wales.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16I know that today's a busy day, some manifestos have
0:05:16 > 0:05:17been launched, as well.
0:05:17 > 0:05:23So we will pick up on some of that.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25Today's about the economy and priorities for the economy.
0:05:25 > 0:05:33Lots of things for us to discuss within that context.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36What I want to do first of all, so that viewers have a good idea
0:05:36 > 0:05:38of where you're coming from is to give each
0:05:38 > 0:05:41of you a chance, just a few sentences, outlining your big
0:05:41 > 0:05:43priority where the economy is concerned.
0:05:43 > 0:05:44Jenny first.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46Well, the first priority is to ensure that this economy
0:05:46 > 0:05:48here in Wales works for small businesses and allows
0:05:48 > 0:05:50small businesses to be established and flourish.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Therefore, we have announced that we will be introducing
0:05:54 > 0:05:58an allowance for people establishing small businesses.
0:05:58 > 0:06:04?100 a week for six months, so that they can pay their basic
0:06:04 > 0:06:07living expenses whilst they set up their businesses.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09Now that should stimulate the small business community.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11There are a number of other things to assist them.
0:06:11 > 0:06:15In addition, the thing that Wales is crying out
0:06:15 > 0:06:21for is better infrastructure, better rail and road connections.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25Therefore, we have a large package, ?100 billion for the UK as a whole,
0:06:25 > 0:06:31of which the due proportion will come to Wales in order
0:06:31 > 0:06:34to improve our infrastructure, make it easier for people to get
0:06:34 > 0:06:37to and from home and work.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40We may talk what the due proportion is in a while, Jenny, thank you.
0:06:40 > 0:06:41Nick.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44On June 8th there is going to be a very simple choice put before
0:06:44 > 0:06:47the people of Wales and the people of the United Kingdom and that's
0:06:47 > 0:06:50going to be between carrying on with the solid and sound economic
0:06:50 > 0:06:55fiscal policies of the Conservatives that have been pursued over the last
0:06:55 > 0:06:58few years or throwing all that away and going down the Jeremy Corbyn
0:06:58 > 0:06:59tax, borrow and spend.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03So what's your economic priority?
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Our economic priority will be to make sure we carry on with that
0:07:06 > 0:07:07sound fiscal management.
0:07:07 > 0:07:09Yes, we still are borrowing but we are borrowing
0:07:09 > 0:07:10at a level that's reasonable.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14We do not want to see taxes go up in a way that would hinder
0:07:14 > 0:07:17the economy and hinder investment and projects like the City Deal
0:07:17 > 0:07:19in Wales, those must go forward, rail infrastructure,
0:07:19 > 0:07:20as Baroness Randerson said.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22Things like electrification of the main line.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24These are policies we really want to see.
0:07:24 > 0:07:25Thank you.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29Wayne.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32Over the last few years, as the people of Pontypridd have
0:07:32 > 0:07:34indicated, we've seen a country and economy run for the benefit
0:07:34 > 0:07:37of a small minority of people, the very rich and powerful.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41What we need in this country, in Britain as a whole,
0:07:41 > 0:07:45is an economic strategy which is for the many, not the few.
0:07:45 > 0:07:50That means intervene in the economy, mobilising people's expertise,
0:07:50 > 0:07:53their enthusiasm and creating a new kind of country
0:07:53 > 0:07:55here but also it's very important that we recognise that
0:07:55 > 0:07:58there is only one part of the United Kingdom which has
0:07:58 > 0:08:01a Labour Government at the moment, and that is here in Wales.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04That's why it's very important for us to promote
0:08:04 > 0:08:06what the Welsh Labour Government is doing and also the work
0:08:06 > 0:08:09of its leader, in particular Carwyn Jones, and how
0:08:09 > 0:08:12a Labour Government in London might enhance that work,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16might make it more effective still.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18We understand the campaign talk but I am wondering, give me
0:08:18 > 0:08:19a specific economic priority.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21What is it?
0:08:21 > 0:08:25What you want to do is achieve growth in this country
0:08:25 > 0:08:28and if we have much more growth then it's important, I think,
0:08:28 > 0:08:30to redistribute the wealth fairly so that everybody has a stake
0:08:30 > 0:08:31in our country.
0:08:31 > 0:08:32OK, thank you, Wayne.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34Gareth.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37I think it was interesting in the voxpop in Pontypridd,
0:08:37 > 0:08:42the first lady was remarking that wages had remained stagnant for many
0:08:42 > 0:08:46years and that's a big issue and we need to tackle that,
0:08:46 > 0:08:53but we also need to look at how small firms prosper, as Jenny said,
0:08:53 > 0:08:56because they are the backbone of the economy.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01I think one of the themes in coming here, I know you don't want to talk
0:09:01 > 0:09:03about Brexit overmuch, but one of the coming themes
0:09:03 > 0:09:05with Brexit may be striking the right balance between removing
0:09:05 > 0:09:07regulation to allow small businesses to flourish,
0:09:07 > 0:09:10whilst at the same time protecting a certain level of workers'
0:09:10 > 0:09:10rights, that would be country of the key things.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20whilst at the same time protecting a certain level of workers' rights,
0:09:20 > 0:09:21that would be one of the key things.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23Thank you very much, Adam.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26From my entire lifetime we have seen the economic gap between Wales
0:09:26 > 0:09:28and the rest of the United Kingdom get bigger and bigger,
0:09:28 > 0:09:30we have to reverse that decline.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32It's completely unacceptable that we see the extent of the economic...
0:09:32 > 0:09:33How do we do that?
0:09:33 > 0:09:36We need the biggest programme of investment that we've ever seen
0:09:36 > 0:09:39in our lifetime in Wales, a Marshall Plan, if you like,
0:09:39 > 0:09:41for the Welsh economy, a new Welsh deal.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44We have been at the end of the queue in terms of investment for too long.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47We need to reverse that and we also need to use
0:09:47 > 0:09:49the opportunities that will be there post-Brexit, as well.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51Tax levers, for example, that we wouldn't have been
0:09:51 > 0:09:56allowed to use while we're within the European Union.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58We could have a variable rate of VAT to help our tourism sector
0:09:58 > 0:10:00or to help our construction sector.
0:10:00 > 0:10:05Lower rates for corporation tax for those parts of the UK,
0:10:05 > 0:10:09like Wales, that deserve a competitive advantage so we can
0:10:09 > 0:10:12attract business here and also help those that are already here to grow.
0:10:12 > 0:10:13Thank you very much.
0:10:13 > 0:10:19You have raised lots of issues.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22It will be a miracle if we fit all of those in our programme.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25I am going to start with one of the biggest ticket issues,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28if you like, the biggest spending issues we have by far,
0:10:28 > 0:10:29which is the health service.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32And clearly, we're going to have to explain as the programme goes
0:10:32 > 0:10:34on there are issues, of course, which are devolved
0:10:34 > 0:10:35in terms of the UK.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38There are issues Westminster is no longer responsible for in Wales
0:10:38 > 0:10:41and I'm expecting you as well to be upfront about that when you talk
0:10:41 > 0:10:44about the policies that are maybe less relevant or more
0:10:44 > 0:10:45relevant to Wales.
0:10:45 > 0:10:46Let's talk about health.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48Jeremy Corbyn talking about an extra ?7.5 billion
0:10:48 > 0:10:50a year over five years, Wayne, for the health
0:10:50 > 0:10:51service in England.
0:10:51 > 0:10:52Yes.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56That's a very ambitious sum, talking about ?35 billion, at least.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59What would happen then, would there then be a complete
0:10:59 > 0:11:04imbalance in terms of the investment levels in England and in Wales?
0:11:04 > 0:11:09The first point I'd make is that we are in a situation
0:11:09 > 0:11:12already where there is a contrast between the health service in Wales
0:11:12 > 0:11:13and the health service in England.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16I would argue that there are many things being done in Wales
0:11:16 > 0:11:18which are very positive, compared to the privatisation, for
0:11:18 > 0:11:21example, we see apace in England.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24But the important thing to remember, I think, when we talk
0:11:24 > 0:11:29about resources is that most of the resources are coming
0:11:29 > 0:11:32into Wales, come from the bloc grant and what we will see under
0:11:32 > 0:11:36the Barnett Formula, which will be modified, we hope,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38but nevertheless it will be consequentials so Wales
0:11:38 > 0:11:40will get a share of that money which is decided
0:11:40 > 0:11:43by a British Government and we put it to good effect,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46as I believe Welsh Labour has been putting it to good effect already.
0:11:46 > 0:11:47OK.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50I am going to ask each of you about health and then maybe
0:11:50 > 0:11:53ask about how it's paid for because clearly if it's
0:11:53 > 0:11:55a ticket that's costing, I don't know, ?37 billion,
0:11:55 > 0:11:57there are issues there about how the money is raised.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59Nick, your thoughts here.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01Well, it's a shame that the Welsh Labour Government didn't protect
0:12:01 > 0:12:04the health budget at the time that the UK Government
0:12:04 > 0:12:06did and the previous coalition Government did,
0:12:06 > 0:12:07otherwise we wouldn't be playing catch-up.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09I listened carefully to what Wayne said.
0:12:09 > 0:12:14Of course everyone will welcome more investment in the NHS
0:12:14 > 0:12:16but it's vitally important that the Welsh Government
0:12:16 > 0:12:18passes that on here.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21Now I haven't heard a guarantee from them yet that they would.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24They certainly haven't over recent years.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26That has to be paid for, that 6-7 billion.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28How is it going to be paid for?
0:12:28 > 0:12:31There is currently a ?30 billion gap in Labour's spending plans.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33So, the electorate need to ask the Labour Party very carefully
0:12:33 > 0:12:35is this really going to happen?
0:12:35 > 0:12:39Is there going to be an investment and will it be passed on in Wales?
0:12:39 > 0:12:41The Conservative commitment, when I last looked, was an extra
0:12:41 > 0:12:44?10 billion into the NHS.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47This commitment is more like ?37 billion, so already we're
0:12:47 > 0:12:51looking at quite a big gulf between the two commitments.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54Are you saying that the ?37 billion makes sense?
0:12:54 > 0:12:58No, it doesn't make sense because if you look
0:12:58 > 0:13:01at the commitment to tuition fees Jeremy Corbyn has made,
0:13:01 > 0:13:04if you look at the commitment to the NHS, across the board,
0:13:04 > 0:13:06these add up to a huge sum of money.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09Now, you know, we'd all like to live in a land where Father Christmas
0:13:09 > 0:13:14would come along and give us all presents at Christmas and it
0:13:14 > 0:13:17wouldn't have to be paid for but at the end
0:13:17 > 0:13:20of the day this does have to be paid for so we need
0:13:20 > 0:13:22to have investment in our public services.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24We need to have investment in the NHS.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27But the electorate are real, they know that you can only do that
0:13:27 > 0:13:30gradually and you can only do that with the resources you have.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32It's a question of priorities, Adam, isn't it?
0:13:32 > 0:13:32Absolutely.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36It has to be a priority when we look at the pressures in terms
0:13:36 > 0:13:37of an ageing society.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40Then we can see, even within Wales, we should be by no means complacent.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Look at the GP crisis that we have hitting many
0:13:43 > 0:13:45communities at the moment, the inability to recruit
0:13:45 > 0:13:49and retain in some cases, that sort of absolutely vital
0:13:49 > 0:13:54primary tier of care in a community and I think
0:13:54 > 0:14:04that the Welsh Government doesn't have a good story on this.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07What we have said is we need, as a matter of urgency,
0:14:07 > 0:14:10to have a costed detailed plan to recruit 1,000 extra doctors
0:14:10 > 0:14:13and 5,000 extra nurses, otherwise we won't be able to even
0:14:13 > 0:14:15keep up with the extent of pressure that we are seeing
0:14:15 > 0:14:16in our communities.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18What's your estimate to what that would cost?
0:14:18 > 0:14:21I mean, we have said it's about ?120 million on the doctors
0:14:21 > 0:14:22but you could save money, Huw.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25We pay ?100 million a year through agency fees at the moment
0:14:25 > 0:14:28because we don't have the salaried staff within the health service.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30It's madness.
0:14:30 > 0:14:31Jenny, what are your thoughts on this?
0:14:31 > 0:14:34Well, we've announced that we will put a penny on income
0:14:34 > 0:14:37tax specifically for the NHS.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41That would mean ?350 million a year coming in addition to Wales
0:14:41 > 0:14:47from that alone and our view is that we have to concentrate,
0:14:47 > 0:14:51not just on the health service but also on mental health
0:14:51 > 0:14:56facilities, give it parity with physical health problems.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00Most important of all, in terms of that additional money,
0:15:00 > 0:15:04is the link between, the interface between NHS and social
0:15:04 > 0:15:08care because there are far too many people sitting,
0:15:08 > 0:15:12lying in beds in hospitals, who actually could go home.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15They want to go home.
0:15:15 > 0:15:27They want the social care, but that link isn't there.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29That is increasingly a very important issue which maybe people
0:15:29 > 0:15:32have been rather slow to latch on to in recent years.
0:15:32 > 0:15:35You brought the tax up, the tax issue up and I think it's
0:15:35 > 0:15:38a good moment for us to jsut talk about that because the Lib Dems
0:15:38 > 0:15:40are openingly going into a campaign saying -
0:15:40 > 0:15:42we think there should be more money on health,
0:15:42 > 0:15:44we're going to put a penny on income tax.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47Very quickly, are you finding that that's a popular
0:15:47 > 0:15:48policy on the doorsteps?
0:15:48 > 0:15:50Yes, we are because people, first of all, admire us -
0:15:50 > 0:15:53picking up the theme from the film earlier on - people
0:15:53 > 0:15:58admire us for the fact that we are being upfront.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01They put the NHS absolutely at their top of list of priorities
0:16:01 > 0:16:03and they realise that it's under huge pressure anyway.
0:16:03 > 0:16:09That Brexit will mean we have fewer EU doctors and nurses,
0:16:09 > 0:16:124,000 of them are in Wales at the moment, many
0:16:12 > 0:16:14of them would leave.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16That would be a huge crisis.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19So that's people realising there's a crisis and they admire us
0:16:19 > 0:16:26for the fact that we have been absolutely upfront.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28Jenny, you have a Lib Dem in Government in Wales,
0:16:28 > 0:16:31you could put that tax rate up in Wales now.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36So why don't you do it?
0:16:36 > 0:16:41If you want to actually use a hypothecated 1p on the basic rate
0:16:41 > 0:16:42to actually help the NHS, why don't you do it in the only
0:16:42 > 0:16:44part of the UK where you're in Government?
0:16:44 > 0:16:46Is that Plaid Cymru's policy as well?
0:16:46 > 0:16:47I think we should explore these ideas.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49So it's not your policy?
0:16:49 > 0:16:51We have a parliamentary inquiry into this whole question of how
0:16:51 > 0:16:52we build a long-term future.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55It's an election, Adam, you've got a manifesto, so why
0:16:55 > 0:16:56aren't you putting that forward?
0:16:56 > 0:16:59We certainly support - I think that we have to address
0:16:59 > 0:17:01the basic inequality in our society before we talk about raising
0:17:01 > 0:17:03the basic rate of income tax.
0:17:03 > 0:17:04OK.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07You can't put tax up at a time when people are facing pressure.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10You've got to do - That is part of the debate, isn't it?
0:17:10 > 0:17:11Absolutely.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14Wayne, you're in a position where your party again is being,
0:17:14 > 0:17:16you know, very open about this.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18Reintroducing a 50p top rate for very high earners,
0:17:18 > 0:17:22shifting maybe that threshold for the 45p rate.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25So you're going into this campaign actually proposing much higher tax
0:17:25 > 0:17:28increases than Jenny?
0:17:28 > 0:17:30The important thing I would emphasise, right
0:17:30 > 0:17:33at the start of this discussion, is that Britain is an
0:17:33 > 0:17:36extremely unequal society.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39We have the richest society, one of the richest in the world,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42but the wealth is held by a small minority.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46One of the (inaudible) over the last few years is that the rich have
0:17:46 > 0:17:47been getting richer.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49What we propose is, yes, taxation for people earning ?80,000
0:17:49 > 0:17:52and above, but no taxation for the rest of the people.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55What we want to see is those resources going, above all else,
0:17:55 > 0:17:59into the National Health Service, and that is absolutely crucial.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02It's those people in those higher incomes who invest in the economy.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05When will the Labour Party learn that if you take too much money out
0:18:05 > 0:18:08of those salaries at the top end, then there is less
0:18:08 > 0:18:09investment to go around?
0:18:09 > 0:18:12But, there's massive discrepancies in this country
0:18:12 > 0:18:14and they're getting ever wider.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16We cannot live in that kind of unequality society.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20Society's breaking apart because of those extremes
0:18:20 > 0:18:22and what we have to do is create a more equal society, with equality
0:18:22 > 0:18:25of opportunity being at the top.
0:18:25 > 0:18:26OK, Gareth, what's your perspective on this?
0:18:26 > 0:18:30So we have a penny on the basic rate that Jenny's talking about.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32We have a very different policy actually from Labour,
0:18:32 > 0:18:36which is to do with reintrodeucing a 50p top rate and changing
0:18:36 > 0:18:43the threshold for the 45.
0:18:43 > 0:18:53Where's Ukip?
0:18:54 > 0:18:55-- reintroducing.
0:18:55 > 0:18:59Well, I think with taxation - before I go on to Ukip -
0:18:59 > 0:19:02I think we need to look carefully at what the eventualal tax take
0:19:02 > 0:19:05is going to be because there has been a lot of research into this
0:19:05 > 0:19:06over the years.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09We've had Labour governments in the past which have had high tax
0:19:09 > 0:19:12rates, there is a point at which the actual revenue goes
0:19:12 > 0:19:15down because at some point, the people who are affected by those
0:19:15 > 0:19:18high tax rates take more action, in terms of tax avoidance or simply
0:19:18 > 0:19:20shifting their money to another country and we are in a very
0:19:20 > 0:19:23mobile, global economy now where people can do that.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26So I think the voters would have to be very wary of thinking
0:19:26 > 0:19:27about electing a high tax Labour government.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Is the tax take ultimately going to go up overall with those
0:19:31 > 0:19:33plans or would it actually go down, that is a possibility?
0:19:33 > 0:19:34OK.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36That's an argument that, you know, we're familiar with.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38I'm wondering, so Ukip's position on this is -
0:19:38 > 0:19:41if you're going to fund very big investment, for example
0:19:41 > 0:19:43in the health service, what is your tax policy behind that,
0:19:43 > 0:19:45how do you fund it?
0:19:45 > 0:19:47Well, the funding for the health service can come through
0:19:47 > 0:19:48a variety of sources.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51Adam mentioned the waste of money on agency staff and connecting
0:19:51 > 0:19:53that to what Jenny said about the potential loss
0:19:53 > 0:19:55of doctors and nurses who are from abroad,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58ultimately, we need to train more of our own doctors and nurses to cut
0:19:58 > 0:20:00down on the waste of agency staff.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03So we need to look more at vocational training in those areas.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05There is also the issue of the foreign aid budget.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Why are we giving such large amounts of money in foreign aid
0:20:08 > 0:20:10when we are massively in debt as a country.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Surely that money should be redirected into areas
0:20:12 > 0:20:13like the health service.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16There is also potentially an ?8 billion per year Brexit dividend.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18That is the net contribution we make to the EU budget,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21some of that could be channelled into the health budget.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25Going back to what Wayne referred to as the privatisation
0:20:25 > 0:20:27of the health service in England, I'm not sure exactly
0:20:27 > 0:20:32what area he's referring to with the term "privatisation",
0:20:32 > 0:20:35but it was Gordon Brown, when when was running the Treasury
0:20:35 > 0:20:44for the Labour Government, who brought in PFI's.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47So that, to some people, is part privatisation
0:20:47 > 0:20:48of the health service.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50The health service is still burdened with massive debts
0:20:50 > 0:20:51because of those PFI agreements.
0:20:51 > 0:21:00Just to be clear - sorry, I'll just clear this up
0:21:00 > 0:21:02and then I'll come - is Ukip going into this election
0:21:02 > 0:21:05saying that it will cut taxes or put them up?
0:21:05 > 0:21:07Not just to do with the health service but, basically,
0:21:07 > 0:21:09broadly in terms of Government spending programmes.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11What's the Ukip policy here on tax?
0:21:11 > 0:21:12The Ukip policy on tax?
0:21:12 > 0:21:13Yes?
0:21:13 > 0:21:15Well, I'm sorry to sound rather biennial, but you would have
0:21:15 > 0:21:28to wait for the manifesto, but I would say there has
0:21:28 > 0:21:30been attention in Ukip - as in all political parties -
0:21:30 > 0:21:31between the different view points.
0:21:31 > 0:21:32Traditionally, Ukip is more of a libertarian party,
0:21:32 > 0:21:32kind of economically on the right.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35So I would say the idea of bringing in higher tax rates probably
0:21:35 > 0:21:41would go against the Ukip ethos.
0:21:41 > 0:21:42I perfectly understand the manifesto point
0:21:42 > 0:21:43which you made very reasonably.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45However, you've given us a hint actually, Gareth,
0:21:45 > 0:21:48but why don't you just underline your view on it?
0:21:48 > 0:21:51If you were in charge of the policy then, going into this manifesto,
0:21:51 > 0:21:52what would be your guidance?
0:21:52 > 0:21:54Well, I'm not somebody who mixes with billionaires on yachts
0:21:54 > 0:21:57and things like that, as people like Peter Mandelson
0:21:57 > 0:21:58in the Labour Party did.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00What's that got to do with your tax policy?
0:22:00 > 0:22:01I will connect it, Huw.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03Possibly, I'll think about giving - No.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05Some guidance, where are you coming from on tax?
0:22:05 > 0:22:08Well, if it was proven - well, you can't prove these things.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11If you have strong impirical evidence that if you raise these tax
0:22:11 > 0:22:14bands it would give us a better tax take and we could then
0:22:14 > 0:22:16divert that into the areas like the health service,
0:22:16 > 0:22:19I would be all in favour of it, but I'm very sceptical.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21But a penny on income tax, we all know the basic
0:22:21 > 0:22:23rate, Gareth, there's no debate about this.
0:22:23 > 0:22:24OK.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26That'll yield you at least ?4 billion.
0:22:26 > 0:22:27We know that'll happen.
0:22:27 > 0:22:28That would therefore be worth considering.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30That would be worthy of consideration.
0:22:30 > 0:22:31Your thoughts on that, Nick?
0:22:31 > 0:22:34It goes back to my earlier comments that there's a very clear choice
0:22:34 > 0:22:37for the British people on the 8th June, and the Welsh
0:22:37 > 0:22:39people on the 8th June, between the Welsh Conservatives
0:22:39 > 0:22:40and all the other parties.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42My party's manifesto hasn't been published yet,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45but I can quite categorically say that we do not intend to raise
0:22:45 > 0:22:47taxes on higher rate earners or medium earners.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Clearly, the implication of that is, you'll have less money
0:22:49 > 0:22:51to invest in the health service, for example?
0:22:51 > 0:22:53Well, over time, of course, as the deficit comes down,
0:22:53 > 0:22:55then we have more money anyway.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58But what you can't do - I mean, this idea that you can lower
0:22:58 > 0:23:00the threshold of the 45p rate down to...
0:23:00 > 0:23:0340p down to 80,000 and not have an effect on the economy,
0:23:03 > 0:23:04that would be highly detrimental.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07At the end of the day, there will not be enough
0:23:07 > 0:23:08money to pay for that.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11If Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party have their way,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14then ultimately the tax burden will fall on the lower
0:23:14 > 0:23:17rates as well.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20It always has in the past under Labour and it would again.
0:23:20 > 0:23:21No.
0:23:21 > 0:23:22I'll come to Wayne.
0:23:22 > 0:23:23Jenny.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27Well, Wales is the poorest part of the UK and in Wales, from the EU,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30we have benefitted to the tune of well over ?600
0:23:30 > 0:23:34per person, per year.
0:23:34 > 0:23:36That money's been invested in our young people.
0:23:36 > 0:23:37It's been invested in infrastructure.
0:23:37 > 0:23:42In 17,000 jobs created, for example.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45Now, you know, I want to pick Gareth up on the bonanza
0:23:45 > 0:23:47that is going to come when we leave the EU.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51In your dreams, Gareth.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55You know, that money is going to be sorely missed in Wales and I have
0:23:55 > 0:23:57absolutely no confidence that a Conservative-run UK Government
0:23:57 > 0:24:05will be replacing that money.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09Before you bring either the Conservatives or Ukip in here,
0:24:09 > 0:24:13let's remember actually what we were promised.
0:24:13 > 0:24:17?680 million a year that Wales currently gets from the EU.
0:24:17 > 0:24:27We were told that we wouldn't lose a penny on that and of course,
0:24:28 > 0:24:31remember the famous bus, the ?350 million a week in Wales,
0:24:31 > 0:24:32that's another ?17 million a week.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34Put the two together, that's ?30 million a week
0:24:34 > 0:24:37that we were promised as a result of leaving the European Union.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40Where is the money?
0:24:40 > 0:24:42Where is the promises in either of your two manifestos?
0:24:42 > 0:24:43?30 million a week.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46I mean, that's building a new District General Hospital
0:24:46 > 0:24:47for Wales every month etc.
0:24:47 > 0:24:52Where is the investment?
0:24:52 > 0:24:54Adam, there's no point re-running the arguments
0:24:54 > 0:24:55of the referendum a year ago.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58The people have spoken, the choice has been made.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01We've a very simple principle in a democracy, OK -
0:25:01 > 0:25:04promises made to the people should not be broken.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07You know, if you do that, if you allow that to happen,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09then we lose all basis of trust in our democratic system.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13Make your point, Wayne, then I'll come to you.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16This election is about choice, it's between whether or not
0:25:16 > 0:25:19you have a Labour Government or a Conservative Government.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21The important thing to stress is that the emphasis
0:25:21 > 0:25:23is very, very clear.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26As far as the Conservatives are concerned, they want business
0:25:26 > 0:25:29as usual, a continuation of what we've had in the past.
0:25:29 > 0:25:30The rich getting richer.
0:25:30 > 0:25:34The National Health Service being starved of resources.
0:25:34 > 0:25:38If you want to see a fairer society and the NHS being developed
0:25:38 > 0:25:40on the basis of an Aneurin Bevan, then people in Wales
0:25:40 > 0:25:41have to vote Labour.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45That's the clear choice.
0:25:45 > 0:25:46...Frankly are irrelevant.
0:25:46 > 0:25:47It's a clear choice between Welsh Labour
0:25:47 > 0:25:49or the Conservatives.
0:25:49 > 0:25:50You're making that point very clearly.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53I'm just wondering, given that this was said
0:25:53 > 0:25:56in the context of European money, so Labour's going into this campaign
0:25:56 > 0:25:59saying what about the money that Wales potentially could lose coming
0:25:59 > 0:26:01out of the EU, that you'll make it up?
0:26:01 > 0:26:09That Wales won't be at a loss at all, is that you're saying?
0:26:09 > 0:26:10Indeed.
0:26:10 > 0:26:11That's right, yes.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13So you're promising Wales ?30 million a week,
0:26:13 > 0:26:14as a result of this?
0:26:14 > 0:26:17We are maintaining our commitment to ensure that Wales continues
0:26:17 > 0:26:19to get the resources from the European Union and,
0:26:19 > 0:26:22more over, make sure that those resources are not channelled -
0:26:22 > 0:26:24Wayne, I put a figure on it, let's hear your figure?
0:26:24 > 0:26:26What is Wales going to get?
0:26:26 > 0:26:28I think it's impossible to give a precise figure.
0:26:28 > 0:26:34Typical!
0:26:34 > 0:26:38The principle initially was that whatever Wales would lose would be
0:26:38 > 0:26:40made up by Westminster, a combination of Westminster
0:26:40 > 0:26:41and some other means.
0:26:41 > 0:26:42Indeed.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44So, is that the commitment?
0:26:44 > 0:26:48The money from Europe will be made up whatever it is.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51We don't know precisely how much that figure will be because we don't
0:26:51 > 0:26:54know the exit arrangements which have yet to be negotiated,
0:26:54 > 0:26:58but we will make up the resources which would have been coming
0:26:58 > 0:27:01from the European Union and we'll make sure that those resources go
0:27:01 > 0:27:04into the areas of need and are not channelled off to relatively
0:27:04 > 0:27:05rich parts of Wales, as the Conservatives
0:27:05 > 0:27:06would want to do.
0:27:06 > 0:27:07Let's get Jenny in.
0:27:07 > 0:27:08Jenny.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11Well, of course, Labour waved the white flag on leaving the EU
0:27:11 > 0:27:13and Brexit many months ago when they decided to
0:27:13 > 0:27:15vote along with Ukip and the Conservatives
0:27:15 > 0:27:17for Article 50.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19I'd love to see this money tree that Jeremy Corbyn
0:27:19 > 0:27:22and the Labour Party are going to get their
0:27:22 > 0:27:24money from because.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26Well, taxes is part of the picture, they've explained that.
0:27:26 > 0:27:34But they are tying up massive amounts of money in a big programme
0:27:34 > 0:27:36of renationalisation.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38I wanted to come on to that.
0:27:38 > 0:27:39Look at the processes for renationalisation.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41You buy the shares of the people who own the current
0:27:41 > 0:27:42utilities and so on.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46You buy the shares off them.
0:27:46 > 0:27:52You're opposed to public ownership for lots of these big industries ?
0:27:52 > 0:27:55You are therefore giving money to the well off, who own the shares,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58which could otherwise be spent on the NHS, on our education
0:27:58 > 0:28:00service, on the things that the people in areas
0:28:00 > 0:28:03like Pontypridd want to see flourishing.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05I'll let Wayne and others answer this.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08But surely, Jenny, there'll be people in your party who take
0:28:08 > 0:28:10the view as well that, for example, a natural resource
0:28:10 > 0:28:12like water shouldn't be in private hands.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14I know the picture in Wales, with Dwr Cymru,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16is slightly different.
0:28:16 > 0:28:17Yes.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20The policy in England with Labour is to do with English
0:28:20 > 0:28:22regional water companies, but it's a very, very big policy
0:28:22 > 0:28:24with clear implications for other parts of the UK.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27So your Lib Dem perspective on that?
0:28:27 > 0:28:29A natural resource, like water, should be
0:28:29 > 0:28:30in public or private hands?
0:28:30 > 0:28:33Well, to be honest, we are not that hung up on the idea
0:28:33 > 0:28:36of whether something is in public or private hands as long as it
0:28:36 > 0:28:38works efficiently...
0:28:38 > 0:28:39Even a vital national resource?
0:28:39 > 0:28:41..and effectively.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43Now, we would not have privatised the water industry,
0:28:43 > 0:28:48but we are where we are and we are in a situation of crisis
0:28:48 > 0:28:50in our economy, a situation where wages are going down,
0:28:50 > 0:28:54where money is very short.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56So that shouldn't be a priority?
0:28:56 > 0:28:58You have to choose what your priorities are.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00Wayne, there's a big question on this of course which is,
0:29:00 > 0:29:03given that we're going into this UK general election, what is the price
0:29:03 > 0:29:07tag attached to privatising these water companies in England
0:29:07 > 0:29:09because there doesn't seem to be a lot of detail around
0:29:09 > 0:29:12that and it's a very, very big number, isn't it?
0:29:12 > 0:29:13It's a very big commitment?
0:29:13 > 0:29:16Yes, and I think the fine detail is yet to be worked out.
0:29:16 > 0:29:19The principle is established firmly in the manifesto however.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21We believe water is such an important resource that it
0:29:21 > 0:29:26shouldn't be up to private venture to handle that.
0:29:26 > 0:29:28It should be something which belonged to the people,
0:29:28 > 0:29:29belongs to the nation.
0:29:29 > 0:29:30It didn't bother previous Labour governments?
0:29:30 > 0:29:33Well, I think it's important to recognise that we've got
0:29:33 > 0:29:36a radical manifesto now and we're impirically learning from what has
0:29:36 > 0:29:38happened in the past.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41It's very, very important that we have a partnership in this
0:29:41 > 0:29:44country between a dynamic private-sector, but also a public
0:29:44 > 0:29:47sector which acts on behalf of the country as a whole.
0:29:47 > 0:29:49It's not the only project, is it?
0:29:49 > 0:29:51I mean you're talking about National Grid, you're talking
0:29:51 > 0:29:52about the rail network.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54I mean, these are exceptionally ambitious commitments and people
0:29:54 > 0:29:56are quite rightly saying, if you're talking about
0:29:56 > 0:29:59a fully costed manifesto, you can't go into a manifesto
0:29:59 > 0:30:02without properly costed numbers.
0:30:02 > 0:30:05They are ambitious.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09As far as the electricity industry is concerned,
0:30:09 > 0:30:12what is being suggested is not old fashioned nationalisation,
0:30:12 > 0:30:15but a new form of public ownership and intervention.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18As far as the railways are concerned, it's not been
0:30:18 > 0:30:20suggested that on day one or day five or whatever, that
0:30:20 > 0:30:31the railways will suddenly come into public hands.
0:30:31 > 0:30:32It'll be a gradual thing.
0:30:32 > 0:30:39What's been suggested is a gradual programme where the franchises
0:30:39 > 0:30:41for different railway companies in different parts of the country
0:30:41 > 0:30:46come to an end, then the state will take them over.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48We are still waiting for your manifesto, of course.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50You have a slight advantage on this one.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53I am wondering, from your point of view when you see a policy
0:30:53 > 0:30:55like privatising the rail network which by all accounts -
0:30:55 > 0:30:57sorry nationalising, taking back into public ownership,
0:30:57 > 0:31:00when you see that policy by all accounts is a popular one,
0:31:00 > 0:31:02do you have second thoughts about whether you have
0:31:02 > 0:31:03got that right?
0:31:03 > 0:31:06No, because the situation is, we are where we are,
0:31:06 > 0:31:08as Jenny said, and first of all, we have the commitment
0:31:08 > 0:31:10to privatising the railways, now the commitment to privatising
0:31:10 > 0:31:11- sorry nationalising...
0:31:11 > 0:31:21It's you now!
0:31:28 > 0:31:29Nationalising railways, water, having some arrangement,
0:31:29 > 0:31:31we are not clear yet with the National Grid.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34What strikes me, if the Government puts money into all of these areas,
0:31:34 > 0:31:36that's money that isn't going into infrastructure
0:31:36 > 0:31:37we need to improve.
0:31:37 > 0:31:39So gradually, the money tax situation you are proposing
0:31:39 > 0:31:40will make the economy worse.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43There'll be less money overall and you'll be spending what we do
0:31:43 > 0:31:45have on these priorities that are not the priorities
0:31:45 > 0:31:46of the public.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48It is like return to the 1980s.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50It's not the strong and stable leadership we need.
0:31:50 > 0:31:51It's Corbyn-omics.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53You don't think a publicly owned railway is popular?
0:31:53 > 0:31:54Yes, exactly.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57No, I think at the moment if you ask the public
0:31:57 > 0:32:00where would you like the railways to be, national or private?
0:32:00 > 0:32:03You may well in one poll get, oh, well, it would be nice
0:32:03 > 0:32:06if it was in the national sector.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09If you say to them would you rather have an improved public transport
0:32:09 > 0:32:11system, would you rather have an improved infrastructure
0:32:11 > 0:32:14and do you really mind at the end of that whether it's privatised
0:32:14 > 0:32:16or nationalised, the public will opt for an improved infrastructure.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20Adam.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23I remember, you know, when I was an MP and we were both
0:32:23 > 0:32:26MPs together in Westminster, you know, your Government then
0:32:26 > 0:32:28was arguing totally against these ideas of public ownership
0:32:28 > 0:32:32which Plaid Cymru were promoting.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35If you actually believe in the public ownership
0:32:35 > 0:32:37of the railways, why is your own Government in Wales
0:32:37 > 0:32:40actually negotiating with four global private companies?
0:32:40 > 0:32:45Why doesn't it say, let's actually reject them,
0:32:45 > 0:32:47let's have a public sector, publicly owned rail franchisee.
0:32:47 > 0:32:53Why are you negotiating a franchise over 18 years?
0:32:53 > 0:32:59There are massive resource implications to that, Adam.
0:32:59 > 0:33:00That's nonsense, and you know it's nonsense.
0:33:00 > 0:33:09In terms of resources you save money because instead of putting profit
0:33:09 > 0:33:19into the pockets of these global companies you actually maintain it
0:33:21 > 0:33:24Once again it's an example, isn't it, of the Labour Party
0:33:24 > 0:33:26assaying one thing in its British manifesto under Jeremy Corbyn
0:33:26 > 0:33:28and doing an entirely different thing here in Wales.
0:33:28 > 0:33:30The kind of thing that gives politics a bad name.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33The reality, Wales hasn't got the powers to do
0:33:33 > 0:33:34what Adam is talking about.
0:33:34 > 0:33:35And that's why Labour has...
0:33:35 > 0:33:36That's not true.
0:33:36 > 0:33:37...arguing for more devolution.
0:33:37 > 0:33:38Gareth is listening very carefully.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41I am just wondering, on this principle of taking some
0:33:41 > 0:33:42of these big industries back into public ownership,
0:33:42 > 0:33:44what's your stance on that?
0:33:44 > 0:33:46Well, I'm glad that Wayne saw the value of empirical evidence
0:33:46 > 0:33:48but perhaps he wasn't being empirical enough
0:33:48 > 0:33:51because in the 60s and 70s we had a whole era of
0:33:51 > 0:33:52Conservative Governments denationalising things.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54Labour governments coming in and renationalising them.
0:33:54 > 0:33:55My father worked in the steel industry.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57It was nationalised in 1949.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00It was privatised in 1953.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02It was nationalised again in the late 60s and then
0:34:02 > 0:34:04it was privatised again.
0:34:04 > 0:34:10The cost of all of this toing and froing must have been absurd.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14It's taking resources out of the economy and this argument
0:34:14 > 0:34:18was essentially won by Mrs Thatcher in the 80s and it was a done deal
0:34:18 > 0:34:20that the nationalised industries didn't work,
0:34:20 > 0:34:22they were grossly inefficient.
0:34:22 > 0:34:27They didn't respond to customer need and that was why they got scrapped
0:34:27 > 0:34:30and why we had a whole era of acceptance, political consent
0:34:30 > 0:34:38in the private sector and even the Labour Government only got
0:34:38 > 0:34:40in in '97 under Blair with the consent that there
0:34:40 > 0:34:41would be privatised...
0:34:41 > 0:34:42Sorry, Wayne.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45It has been said by the Conservative Party that Ukip
0:34:45 > 0:34:47is a Conservative Party mark II.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51I think those comments prove that conclusively.
0:34:51 > 0:34:55Isn't it sad that the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru are so busy arguing
0:34:55 > 0:34:58these arguments of the past about nationalisation,
0:34:58 > 0:35:00privatisation, let's move on.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03Let's put the investment in the economy in our public
0:35:03 > 0:35:05services because if you carry on like this, we're
0:35:05 > 0:35:06going to go nowhere.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08Let's talk about the future.
0:35:08 > 0:35:17I referenced at the start of the programme the fact
0:35:17 > 0:35:20that we have new possibilities, new opportunities as we come out
0:35:20 > 0:35:23of the European Union which would be hugely useful in terms of actually
0:35:23 > 0:35:24renewing and rebuilding the Welsh economy.
0:35:24 > 0:35:26The power to set our own differential rates
0:35:26 > 0:35:29for certain sectors in VAT and tourism and construction.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31The power to have a variable corporation tax rate
0:35:31 > 0:35:34which would give Wales a competitive advantage so we can
0:35:34 > 0:35:36actually bring business here and build the ones we have.
0:35:36 > 0:35:38Are you going to give us those powers?
0:35:38 > 0:35:44The UK Government has given Wales loads of powers.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46When Plaid Cymru was in power with the Welsh Government we didn't
0:35:46 > 0:35:47see much action then.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50Answer the question that's put to you.
0:35:50 > 0:35:58Those specific tax levers which would be incredibly useful
0:35:58 > 0:36:00are you going to give them to us?
0:36:00 > 0:36:02in terms of building up the Welsh economy,
0:36:02 > 0:36:04are you going to give them to us?
0:36:04 > 0:36:06We're already getting taxation powers next April.
0:36:06 > 0:36:07We're already getting income tax.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09I am talking about economic powers, business taxation.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11You don't want to use the powers you have got.
0:36:11 > 0:36:15I tell you what, I am glad you have recognised that Brexit is happening
0:36:15 > 0:36:18and there's only one party and one Prime Minister that will deliver
0:36:18 > 0:36:20the full benefits of Brexit that the Welsh Government will then
0:36:20 > 0:36:23be able to maximise the advantages of and that's Theresa May
0:36:23 > 0:36:24and the Conservative Party.
0:36:24 > 0:36:25Let's pause for a second.
0:36:25 > 0:36:27The viewers will get slightly impatient.
0:36:27 > 0:36:28We have a few minutes left.
0:36:28 > 0:36:31I want to - you brought up the issue of leadership.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33That's a very good area for us I think to bring
0:36:33 > 0:36:34this to a conclusion.
0:36:34 > 0:36:35The question of leadership.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38Theresa May's been accused of being slightly reluctant to meet voters.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41Yesterday she certainly met a voter in Abingdon who said what's happened
0:36:41 > 0:36:42to welfare benefits?
0:36:42 > 0:36:45I am down to ?100 a month with all the welfare changes.
0:36:45 > 0:36:46I didn't like it.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49I mean, it was quite a memorable encounter simply because we haven't
0:36:49 > 0:36:50had many encounters of that kind.
0:36:50 > 0:36:55What is Theresa May offering beyond the phrase "strong
0:36:55 > 0:36:56and stable" in this campaign?
0:36:56 > 0:36:59Theresa May has been out and about since this election kicked
0:36:59 > 0:37:01off and before meeting voters across the country.
0:37:01 > 0:37:02Conservative voters.
0:37:02 > 0:37:03Not only Conservative voters.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06Let Nick answer.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09As Huw said, we saw her meeting that voter and answering those issues.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12I don't think she was a Conservative voter!
0:37:12 > 0:37:16The job of being Prime Minister is incredibly difficult.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19This Government and the previous coalition Government had a hell
0:37:19 > 0:37:23of a task to accomplish and of course there are people out
0:37:23 > 0:37:26there who are going to find that the policies have meant
0:37:26 > 0:37:29that there have been reductions in spending which has affected them.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32But we have to look beyond that.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35We have to look to the long-term and the only way that we can
0:37:35 > 0:37:37lift this country up, particularly once we leave
0:37:37 > 0:37:40the European Union, the only way we can do that is with -
0:37:40 > 0:37:43I will avoid the term strong and stable leadership -
0:37:43 > 0:37:44I probably just used it again!
0:37:44 > 0:37:46The only way is by sound economic management.
0:37:46 > 0:37:49If we can't get the economy right, we can't get anything else right.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52Wayne, here's the tough question which is, do you think Jeremy Corbyn
0:37:52 > 0:37:53would make a good Prime Minister?
0:37:53 > 0:37:54Yes, I do.
0:37:54 > 0:37:57I mean, Jeremy and myself have had differences in the past.
0:37:57 > 0:37:58You are a master of understatement.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00He is not my favourite person.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02The important thing is it's about choice.
0:38:02 > 0:38:07This is about choice, it's about comparisons and if you compare
0:38:07 > 0:38:09what Jeremy Corbyn stands for, compared with Theresa May, there
0:38:09 > 0:38:12is no choice at all, in my view.
0:38:12 > 0:38:13He is a principled, decent man.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16But the important thing here in Wales is that we've got
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Carwyn Jones as the leader of Welsh Labour...
0:38:18 > 0:38:20You are embarrassed of Jeremy Corbyn, aren't you?
0:38:20 > 0:38:24...that's important to include as part of the equation,
0:38:24 > 0:38:26it's Welsh Labour and Carwyn Jones is our leader.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28What's Carwyn Jones got to do with this election, I thought
0:38:28 > 0:38:30it was a Westminster election.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32He is nothing to do with this, is he...
0:38:32 > 0:38:34Because the policies decided in Westminster,
0:38:34 > 0:38:36many of them will be devolved to Wales and it's important
0:38:36 > 0:38:39to examine, like for health service, what's going to be done in Wales
0:38:39 > 0:38:40with those extra resources.
0:38:40 > 0:38:41That's why it's important.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44It sounds like you are putting Carwyn Jones out front so that
0:38:44 > 0:38:48Corbyn can hide behind him in Wales.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51The reality, the most important leader in Wales is Carwyn Jones
0:38:51 > 0:38:52and he is heading our campaign.
0:38:52 > 0:38:53That's the reality.
0:38:53 > 0:39:01Let's talk about Ukip's leadership.
0:39:01 > 0:39:03Where's Ukip leadership in your estimation,
0:39:03 > 0:39:04your own party leadership?
0:39:04 > 0:39:06Well, our party leader is Paul Nuttall and I don't think
0:39:06 > 0:39:10that people really think that we are a genuine party
0:39:10 > 0:39:13of Government realistically, so we're not talking about putting
0:39:13 > 0:39:16Paul Nuttall into Number 10, that would be rather odd if I tried
0:39:16 > 0:39:19to make a case for that.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23What Ukip has to be is a strong pressure group with parliamentary
0:39:23 > 0:39:26representation so that we do hold the Government to account over
0:39:26 > 0:39:29Brexit and we do get the kind of Brexit that the Leave voters
0:39:29 > 0:39:31voted for, that's where we are with Ukip.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34What's the point of people voting for Paul Nuttall if you don't
0:39:34 > 0:39:35intend to be in power?
0:39:35 > 0:39:39We would love to be in power but we're hardly likely to win
0:39:39 > 0:39:40a majority of 650 seats, that would be...
0:39:40 > 0:39:46So you could allow Jeremy Corbyn in?
0:39:46 > 0:39:48He could allow Jeremy Corbyn in...
0:39:48 > 0:39:50Well, we have a first-past-the-post system, so I understand the point
0:39:50 > 0:39:52that you are making, it would be dangerous
0:39:52 > 0:39:55to vote for anything other than the Tories to let Corbyn in.
0:39:55 > 0:39:56I suppose ultimately the electoral...
0:39:56 > 0:40:00Both sides of the same coin.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02Many critics say you kind of joined forces anyway.
0:40:02 > 0:40:03That's the reality.
0:40:03 > 0:40:04That's the claim being made.
0:40:04 > 0:40:08Adam, leadership, what is Leanne Wood offering in this campaign?
0:40:08 > 0:40:10Well, you know, Nick referred to our country,
0:40:10 > 0:40:12my country is Wales, you know.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15The question I ask - who's going to speak up for us?
0:40:15 > 0:40:19You know, Nicola Sturgeon is there for Scotland,
0:40:19 > 0:40:21Theresa May may be a strong leader for England, but who
0:40:21 > 0:40:24will speak for Wales?
0:40:24 > 0:40:28You know, we hear Leanne, standing up there, speaking
0:40:28 > 0:40:30in that working-class, authentic Welsh voice,
0:40:30 > 0:40:33and I think it's resonating right across the whole of Wales
0:40:33 > 0:40:34at the moment.
0:40:34 > 0:40:36Because, you know, at the moment, we're invisible.
0:40:36 > 0:40:40We're invisible in the political landscape.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43We have to plant our Welsh flag on the 8th June and Leanne
0:40:43 > 0:40:45is the one to lead us forward.
0:40:45 > 0:40:48Well, you say we're invisible but, you know, time and again
0:40:48 > 0:40:51it's been said that, given her profile in the last
0:40:51 > 0:40:55election campaign, one thing Leanne Wood was, was not invisible.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58She's been very prominent and she's maximised her prominence
0:40:58 > 0:40:58in that way?
0:40:58 > 0:41:01And she emerged out of that election, in opinion polling,
0:41:01 > 0:41:02as the most popular leader.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06What did that translate into in terms of performance?
0:41:06 > 0:41:08But you, as a student of Welsh history, you, Huw,
0:41:08 > 0:41:11will know that sometimes the seeds have to be planted and
0:41:11 > 0:41:13the fruit will come later.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16I think we will see the fruition of what -
0:41:16 > 0:41:19But it's important - We'll see the fruition
0:41:19 > 0:41:21of her leadership at this election because, you know,
0:41:21 > 0:41:23this is the party of the status quo.
0:41:23 > 0:41:24This is the -
0:41:24 > 0:41:26A vote for Plaid Cymru -
0:41:26 > 0:41:28Adam, wait, I'll bring you back in again.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30He's trying to shout down other voices.
0:41:30 > 0:41:34That time is over, it is now time for Wales to stand up
0:41:34 > 0:41:35and make our voice heard.
0:41:35 > 0:41:38So by fruition, you say you are going to increase the number
0:41:38 > 0:41:40of seats that you have in this election?
0:41:40 > 0:41:42Absolutely.
0:41:42 > 0:41:46I think we will have the best ever record number of Plaid Cymru MPs,
0:41:46 > 0:41:48and that's what will make Westminster and Whitehall
0:41:48 > 0:41:49sit up and listen.
0:41:49 > 0:41:50OK.
0:41:50 > 0:41:55Not by re-electing Labour, not through a blue wave,
0:41:55 > 0:41:58it'll be actually ourselves, voting for our own party
0:41:58 > 0:41:59and our own voice.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01I'm going to ask Jenny because Jenny hasn't had a go yet.
0:42:01 > 0:42:02Right, hang on a sec.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04Jenny, yes.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06This is a UK election and the Liberal Democrats
0:42:06 > 0:42:09are the only UK-wide party which is standing up clearly
0:42:09 > 0:42:13on a pro-EU stance saying, we want to remain members
0:42:13 > 0:42:16of the single market.
0:42:16 > 0:42:20We want the best possible situation for leaving the EU.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23And, Tim Farron has run a brilliant campaign, really putting that
0:42:23 > 0:42:26absolutely centre stage.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30At the moment, whether you vote Conservative or Ukip,
0:42:30 > 0:42:39you get the same message, and we're in danger
0:42:39 > 0:42:41of a Conservative coronation, of Theresa May's coronation.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45What we need is a strong opposition and the Labour Party gave up on that
0:42:45 > 0:42:48ages ago when they voted for Brexit.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52So, therefore, we are in favour and we are putting ourselves forward
0:42:52 > 0:42:56as being that strong opposition, a positive, constructive opposition,
0:42:56 > 0:42:59making sure that the future Government really does
0:42:59 > 0:43:01the best for Britain.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05We are almost out of time, and I know that one or two
0:43:05 > 0:43:07of you are itching to come back in.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09I'm going to give you each a sentence, which is the last
0:43:09 > 0:43:12message you want viewers to take away with them tonight
0:43:12 > 0:43:14as they think about this polling day, which is coming up
0:43:14 > 0:43:15in three weeks' time.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18I'm going to start with Gareth, first of all, on this one.
0:43:18 > 0:43:21I think people should seriously consider voting Ukip to hold
0:43:21 > 0:43:24the Government to account over Brexit, so that the Government does
0:43:24 > 0:43:29deliver the hard Brexit that a lot of people wanted,
0:43:29 > 0:43:31particularly with regard to immigration controls.
0:43:31 > 0:43:35Nick, your last message.
0:43:35 > 0:43:388th June, there will be a very clear choice put before the Welsh
0:43:38 > 0:43:41and the British people, that is between the strong
0:43:41 > 0:43:45and stable leadership of Theresa May or the coalition of chaos that
0:43:45 > 0:43:46will be provided by Jeremy Corbyn.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50It's as simple as that.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53It's either continuum with solid economic policies and making sure
0:43:53 > 0:43:56that Britain beyond Brexit is solid and strong, or it's a leap
0:43:56 > 0:43:59into the dark and a Britain that will be going back to the past
0:43:59 > 0:44:02and all the failures that Labour have delivered in the past.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05I knew you'd get to "strong and stable" somewhere, Nick,
0:44:05 > 0:44:06thank you very much.
0:44:06 > 0:44:07Adam.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09We, as a nation, have been forgotten too long.
0:44:09 > 0:44:10We've been neglected by successive governments,
0:44:10 > 0:44:13Conservative and Labour.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16We can change that as a nation on the 8th June if we put our
0:44:16 > 0:44:17country first and vote Plaid.
0:44:17 > 0:44:18Thank you very much.
0:44:18 > 0:44:19Jenny.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22The Liberal Democrats are standing on a message of hope.
0:44:22 > 0:44:24We want a country that is outgoing.
0:44:24 > 0:44:30We want optimism and we want prosperity in the future.
0:44:30 > 0:44:35We are the only party standing on a pro-European platform,
0:44:35 > 0:44:38that is fighting across the UK and, therefore, can have a real
0:44:38 > 0:44:39influence in Government.
0:44:39 > 0:44:40Thank you.
0:44:40 > 0:44:41Wayne.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44This election is a clear choice between the Conservatives
0:44:44 > 0:44:48and Welsh Labour.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51A vote for the Liberal Democrats or Plaid Cymru make a Conservative
0:44:51 > 0:44:52Government more likely.
0:44:52 > 0:44:54We know what Conservativism has meant for Wales
0:44:54 > 0:44:57over the recent past.
0:44:57 > 0:45:00If we don't want the Conservatives walking over Wales then
0:45:00 > 0:45:02there's no alternative, people have to vote Welsh Labour.
0:45:02 > 0:45:04I'm a bit exhausted after all that.
0:45:04 > 0:45:06Thank you all very much for coming in.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08We'll see what happens on the 8th June.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10A good exchange of views and thank you all for entering
0:45:10 > 0:45:11into the spirit of that.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13That's all we have time for tonight.
0:45:13 > 0:45:16If you'd like to get in touch about anything we've discussed,
0:45:16 > 0:45:19or if you'd like to be in the audience of a special live debate
0:45:19 > 0:45:21with the Welsh Party leaders, you can email us.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24The address is: thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28We're on social media, the hashtag is thewalesreport.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30But for now, thank you very much for joining us.
0:45:30 > 0:45:31Nos Da i chi.
0:45:31 > 0:45:35Good night.