:00:04. > :00:09.Another week and another scandal about our meat. We investigate what
:00:09. > :00:14.is really going on between the farm gate and your plate.
:00:14. > :00:22.More powers for the Assembly? Are they really up to it? And what can
:00:22. > :00:27.be done to kick homophobia in Welsh sport into touch for good?
:00:27. > :00:31.I could either be gay or be a professional rugby referee. It was
:00:31. > :00:35.a difficult decision, the most difficult time of my life. So
:00:35. > :00:44.difficult that it drove me to attempt to take my own life.
:00:44. > :00:47.Good evening and welcome to the programme that examines the issues
:00:47. > :00:52.that impact on our lives in Wales and scrutinises those making the
:00:52. > :00:55.all-important decisions. Over the last couple of weeks there seems to
:00:55. > :00:58.have been an endless stream of worrying stories about the meat and
:00:58. > :01:02.what we might have been eating. Latest concerns in Wales revolve
:01:02. > :01:06.around school dinners. In a country with a long tradition of producing
:01:06. > :01:09.high quality meat, what is going wrong with the whole system? Just
:01:10. > :01:14.why can't good quality, locally- produced food also be cheap enough
:01:14. > :01:17.for most of us to afford? Helen Callaghan has been investigating
:01:17. > :01:27.what exactly happens to our meat from farm gate to your plate, and
:01:27. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :01:40.she has discovered some Welsh meat is sought-after and
:01:40. > :01:44.enjoyed around the world. And now that consumers are very keen to
:01:45. > :01:47.know exec the what they are eating and rarities from, what could be
:01:47. > :01:53.more straightforward than eating Welsh meat from the fields and
:01:53. > :01:58.hills all around us? Surprisingly, that is not always the case. If a
:01:58. > :02:05.group of 100 sheep represented the lamb reproduced in Wales every year,
:02:05. > :02:11.60 would go to the rest of the UK. Another 35 would be exported,
:02:11. > :02:15.leaving just five in our field destined for Welsh dinner plates.
:02:15. > :02:20.Ed, who farms in the Vale of Glamorgan, is convinced more people
:02:20. > :02:25.here would love to buy more home reared meat, but only if the price
:02:25. > :02:31.in the shops better reflected the praise he gets at the farm gates.
:02:31. > :02:34.We have lost about 25 to 30% of the value of what we produce. There is
:02:35. > :02:40.an awful lot of money going elsewhere, somebody is making money
:02:40. > :02:44.with a lamb, we are not. Ed gets less than �100 for a lamb, but by
:02:44. > :02:48.the time it is in the shops, the price of the lamb has more than
:02:48. > :02:53.doubled. So is it the slaughterers and processes who are dipping their
:02:53. > :02:57.fingers in the mint sauce and marking up the price of the lamb?
:02:57. > :03:07.Not according to those who monitor the markets. The wholesale price
:03:07. > :03:12.across the UK has also come down. In fact, the abattoirs and
:03:12. > :03:15.processor eggs are being squeezed. Increasingly, the supermarkets are
:03:15. > :03:20.the big players in the market. Their buying power can make or
:03:20. > :03:25.break a product, and half the small abattoirs in Wales have shut down
:03:25. > :03:30.since the 1990s, meaning animals often have to travel further before
:03:30. > :03:36.slaughter. There are fewer and fewer plants that process red meat
:03:36. > :03:42.in the UK. It is increasingly difficult to identify the
:03:42. > :03:48.traceability of animals. We have seen these through... Particularly
:03:48. > :03:52.with highly processed meat products. Finally, the cut and packed parcels
:03:52. > :03:56.of meat end up in the supermarket. The farmers and the abattoirs and
:03:56. > :04:00.processes are getting paid about a third less than last year. But the
:04:00. > :04:05.price we are playing in the supermarket has hardly changed. One
:04:05. > :04:09.of the big supermarket chains, Morrisons, say the market reflects
:04:09. > :04:14.production costs and they in particular pay farmers a fair price.
:04:14. > :04:17.I think if anybody ever goes into the processing plant, a meat
:04:17. > :04:21.processing plant, they are struck by the sheer volume of people
:04:22. > :04:26.working there, it is very labour- intensive, so there is a lot of
:04:26. > :04:30.cost involved in taking the stock from the farm gates and then the
:04:31. > :04:35.meat ending up on the supermarket I all the butcher shelf in the
:04:35. > :04:40.supermarket, so that at some cost to to it. We pay our farmers a fair
:04:40. > :04:45.price and often pay, for example, a bit more than the others are paying.
:04:45. > :04:50.But there is another way, a Welsh wave. It bypasses the supermarkets
:04:50. > :04:55.altogether. Douglas Willis control every stage of their food
:04:55. > :04:58.production, rearing animals near Newport and selling products in
:04:59. > :05:06.their shop. They can tell their customers exactly where it comes
:05:06. > :05:10.from. We have full traceability from our farms to the abattoir to
:05:10. > :05:16.our cutting plant and straight to the shops. This full traceability
:05:16. > :05:20.means they can trust us. There is a saving, nobody else is involved. We
:05:20. > :05:25.give the saving back to the customer. They say what has worked
:05:25. > :05:29.for them could work across Wales. And it would help to address the
:05:29. > :05:33.current concerns about food standards. Customers have seen what
:05:33. > :05:37.can happen when prices are low and supply chains are long and they are
:05:37. > :05:42.queuing up to get back to the local butcher. Business here has gone up
:05:42. > :05:47.by a quarter since the horsemeat scandal. According to industry
:05:47. > :05:52.experts, although exports will always be important for Welsh meat,
:05:52. > :06:00.this is a unique opportunity for the Welsh meat industry to retarget
:06:00. > :06:03.and roll its Hulme mass-market. -- and grow its home mass-market.
:06:03. > :06:08.Ed and farmers like him would love to take the power back from the
:06:08. > :06:17.supermarkets. He says it would be better for him and better for us.
:06:17. > :06:22.think the reality is that what we get and what the consumer pays is
:06:22. > :06:24.out of control in the supermarkets. We have become complacent, we are
:06:25. > :06:29.under control of the supermarket, and they are not giving us enough
:06:29. > :06:34.for what we are producing. So is it time for the Welsh Government to
:06:34. > :06:39.become more involved in making good Welsh meet affordable for all of
:06:39. > :06:42.us? -- Welsh meat. Helen Callaghan reporting. Joining
:06:42. > :06:51.me now is the Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Food and Fisheries,
:06:51. > :06:56.Labour's Alun Jones. Is the Government doing enough? I hope we
:06:56. > :06:58.are. I announced a special package of support for lamb producers
:06:58. > :07:03.saying we would work with individual businesses to make them
:07:03. > :07:07.more efficient and enable them to sell on the product at a more
:07:07. > :07:11.reasonable... Creating a more reasonable profit for themselves.
:07:11. > :07:15.But at the same time, one of the points made in the report was about
:07:15. > :07:18.the whole supply chain. We have said for some years that we need
:07:18. > :07:23.greater transparency in this, but it is not sufficient to simply
:07:23. > :07:27.blame the supermarkets, that is an inadequate response. We need to
:07:27. > :07:31.look at the supply chain and ensure it is fair to everybody. If you
:07:31. > :07:35.might say it is unfair to blame the supermarket, but they have an iron
:07:35. > :07:38.grip on the market. It seems a bit barmy that we are producing all
:07:38. > :07:44.this wonderful food, this magnificent meat coming out of
:07:44. > :07:47.Wales, and only a small fraction has consumed here? I did not say it
:07:47. > :07:51.was unfair, I said it was an inadequate response. We need to do
:07:51. > :07:55.more than just blame the supermarkets. We need to make sure
:07:55. > :07:59.there is profit available through the supply chain and good value for
:07:59. > :08:03.the consumer. In terms of where we are, the amount of meat we produce,
:08:03. > :08:10.we are a small country but we produce a lot of lamb, we are the
:08:10. > :08:16.most significant producers in Europe, so we will always exported.
:08:16. > :08:21.Coup at 95% of it, why don't we ensure that the market desire for
:08:21. > :08:26.cheap food, good quality food, is being met more effectively? --
:08:26. > :08:30.butter 95% of it. I think it is, but we will always export, we are
:08:30. > :08:33.one of the great lamp producing nations of the world. We need to
:08:33. > :08:39.ensure that Welsh lamb is available to more markets across the world
:08:39. > :08:45.than ever before. One significant home market is local authorities -
:08:45. > :08:50.schools, hospitals etc. Does their meat come from Wales? I hope so.
:08:50. > :08:54.You don't know? If you look at the report about procurement, we have
:08:54. > :08:58.made it clear that we want to see more procurement in Wales from
:08:58. > :09:04.Wales? It is a matter for individual authorities to ensure
:09:04. > :09:10.they get the best value for council tax payers. One question before we
:09:10. > :09:13.move on, where does the Assembly get its meat? In terms of what
:09:13. > :09:19.government and the Assembly, we ensure that it is produced from
:09:19. > :09:23.Wales, I want to see Welsh producers producing food for us.
:09:24. > :09:31.all the food consumed by the Assembly is Welsh produce? I can't
:09:31. > :09:35.give you guarantees. Why not? want to see procurement acting as a
:09:35. > :09:40.tool to enable us to invest in the third production market. But it
:09:40. > :09:45.starts at home, and home in your case is the Assembly. Are you
:09:45. > :09:48.saying you can't tell me whether the meat consumed there is Welsh?
:09:48. > :09:55.The Assembly in Cardiff Bay is a very small element of what we are
:09:55. > :09:59.about. But it is symbolic. Yes, but we were talking about milk last
:09:59. > :10:04.summer, I tried to make the point that the total Welsh procurement is
:10:04. > :10:09.not the answer to the issues facing the market. The issues facing the
:10:09. > :10:15.markets are far more fundamental and wider. With respect, what we
:10:16. > :10:20.need to do was unsure that the Welsh lamb producers is efficient -
:10:20. > :10:24.- is ensure that Welsh lamb production is efficient. And that
:10:24. > :10:29.the processing facilities ensure that their profit is derived for
:10:29. > :10:33.every element of the food chain. With respect, I do have not answer
:10:33. > :10:37.the question, can you give me and the people of Wales and assurance
:10:37. > :10:42.that consuming Welsh products starts at home, that the Assembly
:10:42. > :10:46.is consuming Welsh meat, Welsh produce? The Assembly is governed
:10:46. > :10:52.by members, not the Government. so you can't give me that
:10:52. > :10:57.assurance? It is not my gift to give. It is a tiny, tiny issue,
:10:57. > :11:04.frankly, and it does not address the fundamental issues facing the
:11:04. > :11:08.industry. You might be interested in Cardiff Bay, I am interested in
:11:08. > :11:11.the rest of Wales. In the rest of Wales we have a tremendous food
:11:11. > :11:17.production sector producing excellent products and produce, I
:11:17. > :11:20.am concerned that my mother and other people's mothers elsewhere
:11:20. > :11:24.come by that in their local supermarket, their local shops,
:11:24. > :11:28.wherever they live. What many people watching tonight will want
:11:29. > :11:34.is a guarantee about the quality of the food, they want to buy Welsh
:11:34. > :11:40.food but at a price they can afford. What will you do to help? We can
:11:40. > :11:45.provide that guarantee of assurance. One of the things you saw in that
:11:45. > :11:50.report was the European issue which guarantees that Welsh lamb is
:11:50. > :11:55.sourced in Wales and which meets a very significant quality threshold.
:11:55. > :11:59.We can provide that guarantee. What I think we need to do, a real
:11:59. > :12:07.challenge facing us, is to ensure that food is delivered to the
:12:07. > :12:09.consumer at a fair price which the consumer can afford. Thank you. Now,
:12:09. > :12:12.you might think that pantomime season is over.
:12:12. > :12:15.Yes? Well, oh, no it isn't! According to the First Minister's
:12:15. > :12:19.political opponents, anyway. In the week that the Welsh government said
:12:19. > :12:23.it would like more powers to be devolved to Cardiff Bay, the Wales
:12:23. > :12:25.Report has been asking are they - or us - ready for it? Opposition
:12:25. > :12:28.politicians say they already have enough difficulty getting answers
:12:28. > :12:32.to questions on existing policy areas, and Punch and Judy style
:12:32. > :12:42.politics is getting in the way of real debate. David Williams has a
:12:42. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :12:56.front-row seat for the biggest Richard Rogers, the eminent
:12:56. > :13:02.architect, dismissed his critics and told me that what he had
:13:02. > :13:07.creators was just a small house on the Bay. It was a modest
:13:07. > :13:13.description of what was a very beautiful place with a very big
:13:13. > :13:20.message to convey. That the home of Wales has New democracy was open
:13:20. > :13:26.for business. It is a wonderful idea of this. A glass gallery from
:13:26. > :13:33.which we can watch politicians at work. Democracy at its transparent
:13:33. > :13:39.best. There is no hiding place in this bubble. Good for democracy,
:13:39. > :13:49.but not so good when those who worked here start trading insults
:13:49. > :13:49.
:13:49. > :13:57.with each other instead of engaging in serious debate. What discussions
:13:57. > :14:07.have there been? Many. I am pleased to hear that. Thank you for your
:14:07. > :14:07.
:14:07. > :14:13.There is increasing concern that while the Assembly building itself
:14:13. > :14:19.has been something of a winner, those who inhabit it have not been
:14:19. > :14:25.such a success with the public. First Minister's Question Time, a
:14:25. > :14:35.weekly forum intended as a showcase of political debate, often
:14:35. > :14:45.degenerates into petty squabbling. That is why I am here today. It was
:14:45. > :14:45.
:14:45. > :14:50.a chance to meet those who defend the Labour government. This woman
:14:50. > :14:56.is still fiercely defensive of the current First Minister and does not
:14:56. > :15:04.share the view that First Minister's questions is an
:15:04. > :15:14.important public dwindled to this place. Nobody watches of this.
:15:14. > :15:18.they should. You have said this is a theatre. This is not as important
:15:18. > :15:27.as what we are delivering on the ground. The important part of what
:15:27. > :15:36.is going on here or art the Assembly members holding the
:15:36. > :15:42.government to account? It takes two to tango. And the Conservative
:15:42. > :15:52.member for the opposition is no pushover. You are acting like a
:15:52. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :15:59.petulant child. Perhaps we should buy you a romper suit. A former it
:15:59. > :16:04.turned politician, he knows a thing about herding animals. But the
:16:04. > :16:12.human variety here confined him. He wants a review of Assembly
:16:12. > :16:18.procedures in attempt to increase public engagement. I am a street
:16:18. > :16:25.fighter at the end of the day. I did not vote for higher education
:16:25. > :16:31.paid for by the state. My life was selling potatoes and farm produce.
:16:31. > :16:39.Now I have a suit and a silk tie. I am prepared to have a fight if I
:16:39. > :16:49.need to. I am also very came in to provide solutions to problems.
:16:49. > :16:49.
:16:50. > :16:59.Their new leader on the block is Plaid Cymru's leader. She has
:17:00. > :17:01.
:17:01. > :17:06.described First Minister's Question Time as... Are you insulted by it?
:17:06. > :17:11.Some times, I do feel insulted on behalf of the New democracy we have
:17:11. > :17:20.got here. People deserve to hear their ministers justifying their
:17:20. > :17:28.policies. How can you and the Welsh public have any confidence in a
:17:28. > :17:34.health minister the refuses to be straight with ours? For some reason,
:17:34. > :17:43.Carwyn Jones seems at to single out the Liberal Democrat leader for
:17:43. > :17:50.particular attention. We think very carefully about what questions we
:17:50. > :17:54.are asking, about devolved issues, things that ministers should care
:17:54. > :18:00.about and take action on. But he very rarely gives a straight answer.
:18:00. > :18:06.He is more interested in trying to avoid giving an account of himself
:18:06. > :18:10.and his government. Will you try again this afternoon? Yes, we will.
:18:10. > :18:17.And here they come up for another round of First Minister's Question
:18:17. > :18:21.Time. Another chance for the opposition to put the First
:18:21. > :18:27.Minister and his deputies on the spot. To get a more intimate feel
:18:27. > :18:34.of what it is really like, it is best to observe from the same level
:18:34. > :18:44.on which they operate. Here, you can see it all and you begin to
:18:44. > :18:46.
:18:46. > :18:52.wonder weather transparency is such a good thing. -- 1 De whether. If
:18:52. > :19:02.they paid more attention, they might appreciate more what is going
:19:02. > :19:09.
:19:09. > :19:14.on. I'd read, he is on a lead. think we are allowed to answer this.
:19:14. > :19:20.It has been an interesting day at the Welsh Assembly. It is a
:19:20. > :19:25.different place to the one that I remember, or is it? Was my view of
:19:25. > :19:30.the place obscured by my need to look at it through the prism of
:19:30. > :19:38.professional duty? Released from such responsibilities, I now see it
:19:38. > :19:46.for what it is. But it is probably wise for me to keep my council and
:19:46. > :19:54.my opinion to myself. It is easy enough. Take a peek through the
:19:54. > :19:58.looking-glass. David Williams with his take on
:19:58. > :20:00.what goes on at the Assembly. Well, joining me now is someone who has a
:20:00. > :20:06.rather different opinion to David the Labour Assembly Member Vaughan
:20:06. > :20:12.Gething. What do you make of that? It is a
:20:12. > :20:21.pretty stilted view. In reality, First Minister's questions is an
:20:21. > :20:29.opportunity for members to raise a host of issues. Is anybody any good
:20:29. > :20:33.at it? Is that Chamber not just full of hot air? It has not
:20:33. > :20:38.captured the public imagination of. I think it is very different to
:20:38. > :20:42.Westminster. Their tradition and the set-up is completely different
:20:42. > :20:47.to Prime Minister's questions. But some people are better at it than
:20:47. > :20:57.others. Surely you have to acknowledge that the level of
:20:57. > :20:58.
:20:58. > :21:06.debate is generally pure, the level of visibility is the generally poor.
:21:06. > :21:10.-- generally poor. People are not being fired up by it. There is much
:21:10. > :21:20.more to debate than First Minister's questions. There is a
:21:20. > :21:20.
:21:20. > :21:25.lot of work done in committee room. Senior figures, of all political
:21:25. > :21:30.persuasion, they are not engaging with the public enough, they are
:21:30. > :21:36.not visible enough. People do not know who they are. I am always
:21:36. > :21:42.happy to engage with the public. That might be true of you, but what
:21:42. > :21:45.about the rest of them? I would not accept that this is about senior
:21:45. > :21:55.figures are failing to engage. There is a wider problem of how
:21:55. > :22:00.people communicate and engage with politicians. Is a problem not that
:22:00. > :22:04.the politicians in the Assembly, you have got to get the message out
:22:04. > :22:13.to the people of Wales and that is not happening. Communication is
:22:13. > :22:21.very poor. There is more than one problem here. There is a problem in
:22:21. > :22:28.the media... Is it our fault? people get their information from
:22:28. > :22:35.other sources, unlike Scotland for example. Social media is different
:22:35. > :22:44.now. When I was young, and there were only three or four channels,
:22:44. > :22:51.people had to get the information through other channels. I'd be
:22:51. > :23:01.engaging people in the Assembly is a longer term process. There is a
:23:01. > :23:01.
:23:01. > :23:06.real problem in engaging the public in politics. I recognise I have a
:23:06. > :23:14.duty to go up there and be proactive. And I think people in
:23:14. > :23:20.all parties in the Assembly would accept that as well. It cannot be...
:23:20. > :23:30.There is a big challenge for all of us. Just look at when the debate
:23:30. > :23:34.
:23:34. > :23:36.happens on one particular section in the Assembly. Thank you. Now, as
:23:36. > :23:39.we've been hearing, swapping insults, in a light-hearted way of
:23:39. > :23:42.course, might be part of the cut and thrust of politics, but just
:23:42. > :23:45.when does banter cross the line into bullying? In the sporting
:23:45. > :23:48.world, pitch side participation is key in the enjoyment of sporting
:23:48. > :23:51.events, but a recent survey by Sport Wales and the gay rights
:23:51. > :23:53.group Stonewall Cymru showed that up to 75% of people taking part in
:23:53. > :23:57.sport have heard homophobic banter. And revealingly in professional
:23:57. > :24:00.sport in this country, there are only a handful of athletes who have
:24:00. > :24:03.publicly said they are gay. Rugby referee Nigel Owens, the first
:24:03. > :24:06.openly gay man to referee at international level returns to his
:24:06. > :24:16.home club Pontyberem RFC to explain how he thinks homophobia in sport
:24:16. > :24:27.
:24:27. > :24:32.Being an international referee can be a lonely job. The final word,
:24:32. > :24:37.the authority figure and the butt of many a joke. But that is nothing
:24:37. > :24:43.at all compared to the loneliness of concealing your own sexuality.
:24:43. > :24:51.The human spirit goes through anguish to comply with the world's
:24:51. > :25:00.prejudice. And the sporting world is behind the rest of society. It
:25:01. > :25:10.is a deep-rooted problem. In a recent survey, 75% of people said
:25:11. > :25:17.
:25:17. > :25:21.When I started my refereeing career, I knew that because of the
:25:21. > :25:25.homophobia that existed in sport, I could either be gay or a
:25:25. > :25:30.professional will be refereed. It was a difficult decision to make
:25:30. > :25:35.there was difficult time of my life. So difficult that it drove me to
:25:35. > :25:41.attempt to take my own life. I came out at the beginning of my
:25:41. > :25:46.international career. Gareth Thomas kick-out awards at the end of his.
:25:46. > :25:51.I hope that what we have both done is a tremendously important thing
:25:51. > :25:55.that will show people the way forward. We have all long way to
:25:55. > :26:01.goal but we have a responsibility. Homo phobia in sport is
:26:01. > :26:06.unacceptable. We have to encourage gay, lesbian and bisexual people to
:26:06. > :26:13.feel safe and be included what ever their chosen sport. The best way to
:26:14. > :26:18.do that is to lead by example. We need role models at the top end of
:26:18. > :26:26.the sport had to give a clear and positive message. Intolerance
:26:26. > :26:33.towards gay people is not acceptable. Rugby has spoken.
:26:33. > :26:37.Football, we are waiting for you. The international rugby referee
:26:37. > :26:45.Nigel Owens there. Joining me now is Laura McAllistair, the chair of
:26:45. > :26:53.Sport Wales. I'll be 20 years behind in the sporting world?
:26:53. > :26:58.are much further behind on the issue of sexual orientation in
:26:59. > :27:03.sport than we are on the race and disability. It is important that
:27:03. > :27:10.the address of this agenda. There is still a lot of homophobia in
:27:10. > :27:17.sport. It is not just about professional sport. It is about
:27:17. > :27:27.sport in school and all the way up. Would it help if big name its
:27:27. > :27:40.
:27:40. > :27:46.spores men came out? -- sports men. It is tremendously helpful if that
:27:46. > :27:49.were to happen. How do we stop the name-calling from the terraces?
:27:50. > :27:54.need better education amongst our school teachers to be aware of all
:27:54. > :28:02.the issues that face children. We need our clubs and our governing
:28:02. > :28:09.bodies to buy into this agenda. And they are starting to. We have
:28:09. > :28:14.launched a lesbian, gay and bisexual network. People are taking
:28:14. > :28:18.this seriously. They are taking this seriously and the
:28:18. > :28:28.organisational level, but it is actually at they are so routes with
:28:28. > :28:28.
:28:29. > :28:33.the message needs to get across. -- grassroots. Nigel Owens says it is
:28:33. > :28:37.time for football to catch up. cannot force individuals to come
:28:37. > :28:41.out and they would not wish to do that. It is good and proper that
:28:41. > :28:51.there is a range of role models, but we need to look at the reasons
:28:51. > :28:51.
:28:52. > :28:56.why football does not have high profile out gay footballers. That's
:28:56. > :28:59.it for this week's programme. I'll be on Week In Week Out on Tuesday
:28:59. > :29:04.investigating sham marriages and Huw Edwards will be back with the
:29:04. > :29:06.Wales Report next week. You can get in touch with us about the issues