:00:13. > :00:15.This week on The Wales Report - the worrying state of our schools. Too
:00:15. > :00:23.many are under-performing. We'll be asking the minister what's going
:00:23. > :00:26.wrong. No women bishops in England - but is the Church in Wales going
:00:26. > :00:29.to take a lead? We talk to the Archbishop. And are some of the
:00:29. > :00:39.poorest people in Wales to become victims of benefit changes imposed
:00:39. > :00:42.
:00:42. > :00:45.by Westminster? Stay with us for Good evening. Welcome once again to
:00:45. > :00:48.the Wales Report, where we explore some of the most important factors
:00:48. > :00:51.in Welsh life and talk to some of those making decisions which affect
:00:51. > :00:56.life throughout Wales. And we start this week with the state of schools
:00:56. > :00:59.in Wales. Too many of them are under-performing. Some of our local
:00:59. > :01:01.education authorities are making a real hash of things and the answer
:01:01. > :01:04.might be to bring everything under central control. That's the broad
:01:04. > :01:07.view of Leighton Andrews, the education minister, the man who's
:01:07. > :01:10.not afraid to make bold decisions. He's the one who ordered the re-
:01:10. > :01:20.marking of GCSE English papers and he's radically reshaping the world
:01:20. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:23.of the universities in Wales. But before we get carried away with his
:01:23. > :01:27.bold statements, we might just remind ourselves that Labour's been
:01:27. > :01:31.in power in Cardiff Bay since 1999, so there have to be some questions
:01:31. > :01:34.about the party's stewardship of education since that time. I'll be
:01:34. > :01:44.talking to Mr Andrews in a moment, but first, David Williams has been
:01:44. > :01:45.
:01:46. > :01:49.hearing from some of those with It is now 18 months since Leighton
:01:49. > :01:55.Andrews took over as the Welsh education minister. A new
:01:55. > :02:00.headmaster, sweeping all before him, lauded in some circles as the man
:02:00. > :02:05.who stopped the rot in education in Wales but, regarded by others as
:02:05. > :02:11.abrasive, and riding roughshod over people's sensibilities, in pursuit
:02:11. > :02:16.of his aims, both political and personal. Very different
:02:16. > :02:22.perceptions, then, of the man in charge of education. But there is a
:02:22. > :02:26.consensus among those who detract him and his supporters, and it is
:02:26. > :02:30.this - he is widely regarded as one of the most able ministers in the
:02:30. > :02:33.Welsh government, a man who knows what he wants and where he is going.
:02:33. > :02:37.And I have given local a authorities time and money to get
:02:37. > :02:44.their house in order but the evidence is overwhelming that this
:02:44. > :02:48.has not happened. I am no longer prepared to wait until 2013. I have
:02:48. > :02:53.instructed my officials to scope out a more wide ranging review of
:02:53. > :02:57.the delivery of education services. That review could see local
:02:57. > :03:01.authorities stripped of responsibility for schools. Clearly,
:03:01. > :03:06.the minister had lost patience with colleagues in local government and
:03:06. > :03:09.pressed the nuclear button. I am concerned this is more about his
:03:09. > :03:13.legacy and the fact he does not want to be yet another Labour
:03:13. > :03:17.minister who has failed to deliver substantial improvements in
:03:17. > :03:21.education in Wales, joining the other 15 years of failure, and he
:03:21. > :03:28.is trying to throw the cards up in the air, to try and achieve
:03:28. > :03:35.something. Leighton Andrews is no stranger to controversy. He seems
:03:35. > :03:41.to relish his role as catalyst for change, unveiling a 20 point
:03:41. > :03:45.improvement plan for Education in 2011. It included the idea of
:03:45. > :03:51.councils grouping together into regional consortia of education
:03:51. > :03:56.services. But, progress in some areas has been painfully slow, too
:03:56. > :04:01.slow for an education minister in a hurry. But, what happens -- lies
:04:01. > :04:06.behind this latest controversial review? Is it feel you're on the
:04:06. > :04:11.part of local authorities to run schools properly or is it more
:04:11. > :04:15.Machiavellian than that, part of some grand plan by the Welsh
:04:15. > :04:19.government to centralise power in hands of a few politicians, Kieran
:04:19. > :04:25.Cardiff Bay? No, says the minister, it is all about improving education
:04:25. > :04:28.standards. Others are more sceptical. Our members are finding
:04:28. > :04:37.it very difficult to keep up with the pace of change in education in
:04:37. > :04:42.Wales. This review is in danger of putting forward the agenda far more
:04:42. > :04:49.quickly when we are not quite sure that there should be changed at the
:04:49. > :04:58.moment, but we would prefer their to be time to prove what old
:04:58. > :05:01.authorities can do through the regional consortia arrangements.
:05:02. > :05:07.The children in whose name and the news interest each review and
:05:07. > :05:14.policy announcement is made could be forgiven for feeling a little
:05:14. > :05:18.confused, as can their parents. do not want to kill that my
:05:18. > :05:23.children are educational guinea pigs at the whim of policy makers.
:05:23. > :05:28.What you're saying is that stability is important. Yes,
:05:28. > :05:32.stability is key, I think, yes. Stability might be difficult to
:05:32. > :05:39.achieve in the current climate. This week, we can expect there is
:05:39. > :05:45.also wrecked another review, this time into the exam system for 14-19
:05:45. > :05:49.year olds. More changes might be on the way to our schools. That was
:05:49. > :05:55.David Williams. I am joined by the education minister, Leighton
:05:55. > :06:00.Andrews. Can you reassure people you believe in local democracy and
:06:00. > :06:06.accountability? The very much so, we have lots of democracy but
:06:06. > :06:11.little accountability. That is borne out by reports from Education
:06:11. > :06:16.Inspectorate, which has shown we only have five good local
:06:16. > :06:22.authorities at of 15 inspected. Five are adequate, or barely good
:06:22. > :06:25.enough, and five are either in need of significant improvement of
:06:25. > :06:31.special measures, so there was a lot to be done. Are their common
:06:31. > :06:37.problems that you want to identify? There are lots of things leaders of
:06:37. > :06:43.local councils have to look at. I want to ask why local councils into
:06:43. > :06:46.been so late in schools or relay at all, as we have seen. They very
:06:46. > :06:53.rarely use powers and integration when schools start getting into
:06:53. > :06:57.trouble. They need to look closely at what they are doing. And when a
:06:57. > :07:02.council is found to be in need of special measures, even then, local
:07:02. > :07:07.government leaders are reluctant to act. What are your thoughts on
:07:07. > :07:11.that? While directors of education who won feeling services staying in
:07:12. > :07:17.their jobs? Why don't people act more swiftly and recklessly to sort
:07:17. > :07:20.out the school system for the young people in their communities?
:07:20. > :07:25.are the education minister - don't you have the powers to intervene?
:07:25. > :07:29.Indeed I have. We have put a ministerial intervention Board into
:07:29. > :07:34.Pembrokeshire. And we now have an intervention Board in Anglesey as
:07:34. > :07:42.well. Illustrating the scale of the problem. It is quite clear that the
:07:42. > :07:49.new inspection framework is tougher, is making more demands of local
:07:49. > :07:53.authorities. They need now to step up to the mark. They seemed angry
:07:53. > :07:58.about the suggestion that this form of local control and accountability
:07:58. > :08:04.should be moved and centralised. You seem angry about what you see
:08:04. > :08:08.as though you to perform. Whereas the compromise? There is a
:08:08. > :08:14.performance issue. This is about their performance as education
:08:14. > :08:19.authorities. I have not ruled anything in or out. It is going to
:08:19. > :08:23.be a proper review. We look forward to him back from local government,
:08:23. > :08:28.from them demonstrating not only that they what local democracy but
:08:28. > :08:35.also to improve performance. I am encouraged by the new leadership in
:08:35. > :08:38.local authorities since May this year, and they could point to
:08:38. > :08:41.applique may Authority, a Labour authority and a Tory authority and
:08:41. > :08:47.people are starting to get to grips with the challenges. People are
:08:47. > :08:51.starting to get this right, but the pace has got to accelerate. People
:08:51. > :08:58.who are jumping to conclusions who say you want to centralise things,
:08:58. > :09:02.they are wrong? I would never have invented myself 22 Oct education
:09:02. > :09:06.authorities and a country the size of Wales. We have too many
:09:06. > :09:12.education authorities. It is very clear some of the smaller ones in
:09:12. > :09:17.particular are not operating at the King of capacity that we want, and
:09:17. > :09:21.that parents and pupils should expect. Why have you not made the
:09:21. > :09:24.rational, valid case for reorganising that number of
:09:24. > :09:31.laboratories rather than waiting for a bad performance in one area,
:09:31. > :09:35.and using that as a tool, if you like, to going? It is my job to
:09:35. > :09:39.driver performance in education throughout the system, and I am
:09:39. > :09:43.focused on the poor performance we have seen in too many education
:09:43. > :09:47.authorities. There are some things we might like to do quickly. Local
:09:47. > :09:51.government reorganisation can take a long time to implement. Parents
:09:51. > :09:57.and pupils watching this will be focusing on something rather more
:09:57. > :10:01.basic, rather than talking about processes and structures, they will
:10:01. > :10:06.think about quality of teaching, resources and facilities, some
:10:06. > :10:13.schools do not have good facilities, buildings are crumbling, where, in
:10:13. > :10:19.all of this debate is this talk about the nitty gritty? That is
:10:19. > :10:21.part of this agenda. If we do not have the right level of support to
:10:21. > :10:27.schools you find a situation where schools do not get the support
:10:27. > :10:31.needed, and that is at the heart of what we are seeing, but, we are
:10:31. > :10:37.investing in new buildings and new technology and I have to say to
:10:37. > :10:42.local authorities, as I have said in my statement, I am concerned
:10:42. > :10:48.about poor quality of Internet access for schools, and something I
:10:48. > :10:53.am working very hard on. When you get your powers, and the powers you
:10:53. > :11:00.have to intervene already, are you not tempted just to say, I have got
:11:00. > :11:07.the powers in place, why can't I just run the education system
:11:07. > :11:11.without this halfway house of local education authorities? We need
:11:11. > :11:16.something between the government and the school, and that could be
:11:16. > :11:22.local authorities, it could be regional consortia, such as we are
:11:22. > :11:28.developing, and it could be regional school boards. If we took
:11:28. > :11:30.most of the education responsibilities away from the
:11:30. > :11:35.authorities are currently closed fidgeted and ran it on and regional
:11:36. > :11:44.basis. We must face up to the fact that performance in education
:11:44. > :11:49.service is overall, not good enough. We talk a lot about reviews, and
:11:49. > :11:53.people's eyes glaze over when you talk about lots of reviews, because
:11:53. > :11:58.they want practical results - when are we going to see them? If I just
:11:58. > :12:04.acted, I would be accused of acting like a dictator. We have these
:12:04. > :12:07.reviews, in order to get the views of the public. We will be
:12:07. > :12:14.publishing an exciting qualification group review this
:12:14. > :12:19.week. When you see the performers of Welsh schools, compared to parts
:12:19. > :12:24.of the rest of the UK, not to mention abroad, it is not a very
:12:24. > :12:30.competent position for you to be in. Standards have been increasing
:12:30. > :12:36.throughout the period of devolution. There are 12% more people getting
:12:36. > :12:39.A-star grades in A-level, and there are fewer young people leaving
:12:39. > :12:42.schools without qualifications, so there have been significant
:12:42. > :12:46.improvements during the period of devolution, but we can do better,
:12:46. > :12:52.and if we could implement best practice across the wall of Wales,
:12:52. > :13:02.then we would be moving very fast in terms of making national
:13:02. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:10.progress -- the whole of Wales. Thank you Mr Andrews. Education is
:13:10. > :13:12.one area where policy stands out in marked contrast to England and the
:13:12. > :13:15.week brought another stark illustration when the General Synod
:13:15. > :13:17.of the Church of England rejected plans to appoint women bishops. It
:13:17. > :13:20.dismayed and angered many - including the outgoing Archbishop
:13:20. > :13:23.of Canterbury Rowan Williams - and his successor Justin Welby - not to
:13:23. > :13:26.mention many women who felt this was a major setback. Women should
:13:26. > :13:29.not be barred from being in the House of Bishops. It is ridiculous
:13:29. > :13:37.in today's society to have a boys' club of men who make decisions on
:13:37. > :13:41.behalf of the church. It does not Some of the strongest voices in
:13:41. > :13:43.favour were within the Church in Wales, which was in the vanguard of
:13:43. > :13:46.the campaign to ordain women priests twenty years ago. So will
:13:46. > :13:56.the Church in Wales now move independently to appoint women as
:13:56. > :14:02.bishops? Joining me is the Archbishop of Wales, Barry Morgan.
:14:02. > :14:07.County are coming in. Pleasure. What is your response to the vote?
:14:07. > :14:13.A I was deeply disappointed. I knew would be close but I did think the
:14:13. > :14:19.vote would go through. It was a great shock. I understand how they
:14:19. > :14:24.feel. In 2008, at the same thing happen to as in Wales where the
:14:24. > :14:31.Bill was lost by about five votes in the House of clergy.
:14:31. > :14:35.Consequently, we are at this stage were we to need to make sure we
:14:35. > :14:43.bring in another bill in order to make it possible for a woman to be
:14:43. > :14:49.elected as bishops. Just another thought on the outcome of this vote,
:14:49. > :14:54.you have an outgoing Archbishop of Canterbury suffering a setback, an
:14:54. > :14:58.incoming archbishop who made his views very plain. They have been
:14:58. > :15:03.rejected. Is it not very destabilising for the Church
:15:03. > :15:09.itself? Yes, of course, it is very disappointing for both of them.
:15:09. > :15:14.People are in favour of bishops, but they do not always listen or
:15:14. > :15:18.follow where bishops lead. The Bar is quite high, it is two-thirds in
:15:18. > :15:23.each house. I know lots of people have spoken about the fact we
:15:23. > :15:29.should change the rules, but you cannot do so in the middle of the
:15:29. > :15:34.game. You have to play it and then think about the implications.
:15:34. > :15:39.are the signals now, forgive me, which would inured you give
:15:39. > :15:44.encouragement to women in Wales are who are looking at his push --
:15:44. > :15:49.position in the Church in Wales? Next year the bishops will
:15:49. > :15:53.introduce a Bill to the governing body. It will be a simple bill
:15:53. > :16:00.talking about accepting the principle of women as bishops. In
:16:00. > :16:04.that Bell, we separate any pastoral provisions. This bill will not come
:16:04. > :16:08.into force we will say unless and until a second Bill is passed
:16:09. > :16:14.making special provisions for you. The idea is to have the principal
:16:14. > :16:19.out of the way so that as a church we're saying positively we believe
:16:19. > :16:24.women should be allowed in the episcopate. A are using to people
:16:24. > :16:29.you hope the Church in Wales will move to a point women bishops
:16:29. > :16:34.before the Church of England gets his own opportunity to do so?
:16:34. > :16:40.not a competition. That is attractive to you However? We have
:16:40. > :16:46.been talking about it for a long time in Wales. It is only right we
:16:46. > :16:51.should now, four years after 2008, bring it back. In the hope that
:16:51. > :16:56.people accept the privet -- the principle. If that is passed, it
:16:56. > :17:03.gives a strong indication to the church and the world that we really
:17:03. > :17:09.do believe that women ought to be ordained. Then, all that does is
:17:09. > :17:16.make it possible for women to be elected. One such caution, you are
:17:16. > :17:20.presenting us with lots of caviar at. -- lots of caution. Why can you
:17:20. > :17:25.not say, we end in a position where the Church of Wales presents a
:17:25. > :17:30.woman be shipped to the world? Because I have tried that before.
:17:30. > :17:35.It is not about what I want as archbishop. I would love to be able
:17:35. > :17:41.to say the Church in Wales has elected a woman bishop. It is not
:17:41. > :17:45.about what I want but about what is right for the Church. I believe
:17:45. > :17:49.that it is right for women to be bishops in the Church of God. I
:17:50. > :17:55.hope it will be possible, but we have to go through the processes
:17:55. > :18:02.and we have to carry people with us. I hope by doing it in this way we
:18:02. > :18:07.might just win over enough people so that they vote. We also have to
:18:07. > :18:10.have a two-thirds majority. In that is not delivered in the next fears,
:18:10. > :18:16.with people already expressing concern about the strength of the
:18:16. > :18:22.judgment in Wales, where does that leave you? I think in a very sad
:18:22. > :18:24.and sorry state. We have seen the reaction of the wider society to
:18:24. > :18:29.the church. People do not understand the arguments against
:18:29. > :18:33.the ordination of women to the episcopate. It does not make any
:18:33. > :18:39.sense to me that if you ordain women as deacons and priests, not
:18:39. > :18:44.to allow them to be bishops. We have the same arguments we had when
:18:44. > :18:47.we talked about ordaining women to the priesthood. Thank you very much.
:18:47. > :18:50.Archbishop, thank you for joining us. If you have any comments on
:18:50. > :18:57.these or any other subjects, please get in touch. You can email
:18:57. > :18:59.thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk or we're on twitter @thewalesreport.
:18:59. > :19:02.Of all the policies being pursued by the coalition government at
:19:02. > :19:06.Westminster, reform of welfare is proving to be highly controversial,
:19:06. > :19:09.with changes to housing benefit heading the list. Experts and
:19:09. > :19:11.campaigners claim they will have a brutal impact on some of the most
:19:12. > :19:17.vulnerable families and households in Wales, with the to under-25's
:19:17. > :19:20.facing some drastic change. In a moment, we'll be getting the view
:19:20. > :19:22.of a leading Liberal Democrat, who's taking a keen interest in the
:19:22. > :19:32.debate, but first David Williams examines the potential impact of
:19:32. > :19:35.
:19:35. > :19:40.the changes. You have to seek work and take work or you will lose your
:19:40. > :19:47.benefit. We are going to look at ending automatic access to housing
:19:47. > :19:50.benefit for people under 25 as well. She shock and disbelief. I cannot
:19:50. > :19:55.believe that any so-called government would put in something
:19:55. > :20:00.that is so targeted at the most vulnerable in our society. Hard-
:20:00. > :20:05.working young people have to live at home while they work and save,
:20:05. > :20:08.so why should it be different for those who do not? We go from the
:20:08. > :20:12.situation where we have a well- regarded system with good social
:20:12. > :20:22.support, to a system which is forcing young people onto the
:20:22. > :20:23.
:20:23. > :20:28.streets. This boy is 19 years of age and is one of 22,000 young
:20:28. > :20:32.people in Wales on housing benefit. Last year he was thrown out of the
:20:32. > :20:36.family home after a strained relationship with his mother came
:20:36. > :20:41.to a head. He now lives and supported housing in Caerphilly and
:20:41. > :20:44.is looking to move into his own property. He says he would have
:20:44. > :20:51.ended up on the streets and unemployable under the current
:20:51. > :20:56.plans. If I did not have housing benefits, I would be homeless and
:20:56. > :21:05.then I could not get a job because you need an address. It is not a
:21:05. > :21:10.lifestyle choice at all. Sitting around all day doing nothing. The
:21:10. > :21:18.government might think I am lucky but I am not. He is not alone.
:21:18. > :21:22.recent survey by the homeless charity said that 90 % of the young
:21:22. > :21:30.people it helps are afraid of finding themselves homeless. With
:21:30. > :21:34.nowhere to turn, if there housing benefits are scrapped. We work with
:21:34. > :21:40.around 40,000 young people a year and they are reliant on housing
:21:40. > :21:43.benefit to have a roof over their head because they're homeless. Or
:21:43. > :21:48.there threatened with being homeless. If they had safe and
:21:48. > :21:55.secure family homes to live in, that is where they would be. The is
:21:55. > :22:03.change will not just affect single people. Nearly 45 % of under 25s
:22:03. > :22:08.have received housing benefits and her appearance. This couple live in
:22:08. > :22:18.a three-bedroomed house with their two children and received �320 a
:22:18. > :22:18.
:22:18. > :22:27.week towards their rent. We as a happy family ex -- we are a happy
:22:27. > :22:35.family! They struggled to make ends meet. I got made redundant. I had
:22:35. > :22:40.to go to job seekers. We're now on the dole and cannot afford anything.
:22:40. > :22:47.We have to rob Peter to give to Paul and then we have to take back
:22:47. > :22:51.off Peter. In the 10 years I have worked, this is the longest I have
:22:51. > :22:57.been out of work minus six months. If they withdraw housing benefit
:22:57. > :23:01.there is nothing we can do but go on the streets. We're talking about
:23:01. > :23:06.young families in. Not just individuals. This will affect them
:23:06. > :23:10.just as much as individuals, without access to housing benefit
:23:10. > :23:16.even when in employment, you need that additional support provided by
:23:16. > :23:25.the state. Government spending has ballooned in the last decade on
:23:25. > :23:31.housing benefits. This is predicted to rise to 25 billion by 2015. Of
:23:31. > :23:35.this almost 2 million -- 2 billion is bent on the under 25. The
:23:35. > :23:40.coalition government says enough is enough. We as people understand we
:23:40. > :23:45.cannot allow the situation to remain as a tizz. The Government is
:23:45. > :23:50.right to look at all aspects of spending. We have well duty to look
:23:50. > :23:56.at welfare budget which has doubled. No proposals have been forthcoming
:23:56. > :24:00.as yet. Protection is in the system for the most vulnerable. I do think
:24:00. > :24:05.we have a responsibility to look at elements of government expenditure
:24:05. > :24:10.which is as significant at �2 billion which is a third of the
:24:10. > :24:14.Welsh NHS budget. The Department of work and pensions insists that
:24:14. > :24:24.under the new proposals the Most Honourable will continue to receive
:24:24. > :24:25.
:24:25. > :24:30.help. Experts in the field are not convinced. -- most vulnerable.
:24:30. > :24:35.they would do is force people into a spiral of decline, where it
:24:35. > :24:39.becomes so vulnerable that they can access support. That is not what we
:24:39. > :24:45.want. It is still not clear whether the government will go ahead with
:24:45. > :24:49.these proposals. Things may become clear in the Autumn Statement in
:24:49. > :24:54.two weeks' time. In the meantime, those speaking out for young people
:24:54. > :25:00.on the breadline her pleading with the Westminster Government to think
:25:00. > :25:08.again. The Scothern says, do not worry, current claimants will not
:25:08. > :25:16.be affected. -- his government says. I am delighted that those 4,000
:25:16. > :25:22.will not be affected this year, but they will be affected the next year.
:25:22. > :25:29.We are going to have a floods of of vulnerable people being made
:25:29. > :25:35.vulnerable by this appalling policy decision. With me is Lord German of
:25:35. > :25:38.the Liberal Democrats. A former Deputy First Minister in Cardiff
:25:38. > :25:47.Bay, who's now chair of the Lib Dem parliamentary committee on work and
:25:47. > :25:51.pensions. On the housing benefit chain, where do you stand? In his
:25:51. > :25:56.is not a policy that the Liberal Democrat support. We're trying to
:25:56. > :26:01.find savings again which will have to come into effect at another
:26:01. > :26:05.round of savings already made. It is not a Liberal Democrat policy,
:26:05. > :26:10.it is a Conservative proposal. The Liberal Democrats do not support
:26:10. > :26:14.this proposal because of the hardship it will cause. I am
:26:14. > :26:17.certain Liberal Democrats have made their position clear to the Deputy
:26:17. > :26:22.Prime Minister that a blanket ban of this sort will not work. Think
:26:22. > :26:28.of the sort of people we are trying to encourage back into work. People
:26:28. > :26:31.need to have my ability, the need to go out and find a job. A lot are
:26:31. > :26:36.finding part-time jobs and jobs which do not pay much, but they
:26:36. > :26:41.have to travel for them. You have to help them with housing well
:26:41. > :26:47.they're getting on the job market. You were careful to seek a blanket
:26:47. > :26:53.ban, so at partial ban would be OK? No, I am saying we need to look at
:26:53. > :26:58.the savings in the Budget which covers a whole raft of things.
:26:58. > :27:02.There her to fundamentals about her welfare system, it has to act as a
:27:02. > :27:06.safety net to protect the most vulnerable. Secondly, it has to
:27:06. > :27:12.help people to help themselves - so in this case getting them back to
:27:12. > :27:17.work. We have to find ways which do not affect those two principles and
:27:17. > :27:21.find extra spending cuts somewhere else. Let us give a sense of the
:27:21. > :27:25.work he had been doing in the last year. When you take your opposition
:27:25. > :27:29.to this proposal to the Conservative members of the House
:27:30. > :27:35.of Lords, what did they say? They say we need to find savings and I
:27:35. > :27:41.accept that. The overall picture of our economy is not too bright. The
:27:41. > :27:45.welfare budget is huge. We an already cutting as much as we are
:27:45. > :27:48.cutting, the whole of the welfare budget has been cut from the
:27:48. > :27:53.welfare budget. I understand we have to find more money, but we
:27:53. > :27:58.have to find better solutions than blanket bans. Perhaps we should
:27:58. > :28:04.hold benefits down to a late -- a level of wage increases? The sort
:28:04. > :28:09.of thing which is acceptable, not nice but acceptable. It was saved
:28:09. > :28:14.as much money as we are talking about. It comes to housing benefit
:28:14. > :28:18.change, that is the one people have latched on to, if you have George
:28:18. > :28:23.Osborne and colleagues insisting on this as a proposal that should be
:28:23. > :28:27.enacted, what will he do? We will know more when we get to the Autumn
:28:27. > :28:32.Statement. The debates in the next two weeks are all inside government
:28:32. > :28:36.and about these issues. Is there any way you could back it in any
:28:37. > :28:41.form? I do not think this is a proposal that Liberal Democrats
:28:41. > :28:46.could support. I sense that my colleagues are saying that to me as
:28:46. > :28:51.well. I have a feeling that this is a very big red line which it
:28:51. > :28:55.Liberal Democrats will draw in the sand. Thank you very much. Lord
:28:55. > :28:58.German there. Thanks. Don't forget to get in
:28:58. > :29:01.touch with your thoughts on opinions - and tell us what you'd
:29:01. > :29:03.like to see covered on the programme - email at