:00:09. > :00:14.Tonight, the tuition fees gamble, and warnings that the Welsh
:00:14. > :00:20.government's policy could damage universities. The economy has
:00:20. > :00:26.shrunk, is it time for another plan? Will football soon kick rugby
:00:26. > :00:32.into touch to become Wales's national sport? Rugby has become
:00:32. > :00:42.the sick man of Welsh sport. Welcome to a controversial game of
:00:42. > :00:46.
:00:46. > :00:51.two cards. -- too halves. Good evening, and welcome to a programme
:00:51. > :01:00.that looks at the issues to you in Wales, and the important decisions
:01:00. > :01:05.about our lives. It is a Welsh government flagship policy, and a
:01:05. > :01:09.buffer to the rise in tuition fees across the UK. Education experts
:01:09. > :01:13.are warning that the decision by the Education Minister to top up
:01:13. > :01:18.the amount paid by Welsh students through a grant, no matter where
:01:18. > :01:23.they study, is taking vital money away from Welsh universities. The
:01:23. > :01:28.number of Welsh students choosing to study outside of Wales is going
:01:28. > :01:35.up, while the number of students that choose to study inside Wales
:01:35. > :01:45.is going down. There are growing fears that the Government's policy
:01:45. > :01:47.
:01:48. > :01:52.After three years of academic grass, it is time to celebrate. Graduation
:01:52. > :01:57.day at Swansea University, just like anywhere else, is a
:01:57. > :02:02.recognition of achievement, a culmination of a journey. As we are
:02:02. > :02:08.reminded in the ceremony, a university education is not just an
:02:08. > :02:11.investment to shape a graduate's lives, once they become
:02:11. > :02:17.professionals, they are learning experience will help to shape our
:02:17. > :02:25.lives as well. They want future generations are graduates to be
:02:25. > :02:31.just as happy as -- and proud as they are here today. The prospect
:02:31. > :02:36.of debt means that celebrations are muted. Now that degrees are more
:02:36. > :02:44.expensive, the Welsh government will pick up the bill for graduates.
:02:44. > :02:48.The students started his medical course in Exeter last September. It
:02:48. > :02:58.was the first one way universities are charging higher fees. His
:02:58. > :03:03.course costs of �9,000 the AA, and five -- almost �9,000 here, and
:03:03. > :03:13.almost half of that is met by the Welsh government. Summer my sisters
:03:13. > :03:21.are studying writer now -- some of my sisters are studying, and it
:03:21. > :03:26.would not have been financially viable for me to do it. The course
:03:26. > :03:31.is very good, many people want to stay in England to practice,
:03:31. > :03:37.because they feel they are better resources. Able have better
:03:37. > :03:47.opportunities. It is a marketplace. When Welsh
:03:47. > :03:48.
:03:48. > :03:53.students due to leave Wales, their money goes as well. More than 7,000
:03:53. > :03:58.students crossed the border last year, more than the year before.
:03:58. > :04:03.They took with them an estimated �31 million. In Scotland, students
:04:03. > :04:08.to live there get all of their fees paid. Only if they go to a Scottish
:04:08. > :04:12.university. There has always been a question mark about the economic
:04:12. > :04:16.wisdom of giving students a free choice of whether they want to go,
:04:16. > :04:20.been given a subsidy. That does not happen in Scotland, and I can't
:04:20. > :04:26.think of any other countries that would do it. It is generous, but
:04:26. > :04:30.perhaps it is too generous. Welsh universities, the money
:04:30. > :04:35.leaving the country has a serious effect. There is only a finite
:04:35. > :04:41.amount of money in the part, money for fees, and money for grants
:04:41. > :04:48.given directly to universities for teaching and running buildings.
:04:48. > :04:56.More spent on fees means less bent on block grants. In 2012, the block
:04:56. > :04:59.grant funding was cut. What it means, indirectly, is that the
:04:59. > :05:03.money available for higher education in Wales is less than it
:05:03. > :05:11.would have been, it would be helpful to review the funding
:05:11. > :05:14.system for Welsh universities. We need to focus resources on where it
:05:14. > :05:22.is most needed, and where we are going to get the best value for
:05:22. > :05:27.money for the Welsh government, and the future prosperity Wales. There
:05:27. > :05:32.are students and their fees coming into Wales as well. Last year they
:05:32. > :05:39.brought in �60 million for Welsh universities. The big worry is that
:05:39. > :05:45.fewer English students are crossing the border. Numbers dropped by 17%
:05:45. > :05:53.in 2012. Forever variety of reasons, the number of students coming
:05:53. > :06:00.across the border has declined. -- for a variety. The calculations of
:06:00. > :06:07.how the flow of money is going may have to be revised. It means that
:06:07. > :06:12.the trends are falling application rates. If these trends continue,
:06:12. > :06:22.there will be serious repercussions. Are you surprised by the enrolment
:06:22. > :06:23.
:06:23. > :06:33.figures, and their friends? feared that this would happen. --
:06:33. > :06:34.
:06:34. > :06:38.trends. If the universities don't get stronger, they were not -- they
:06:38. > :06:43.will not attract students. Where are we heading with this policy?
:06:43. > :06:47.fear it is going into trouble. In spite of these warnings, a
:06:47. > :06:52.government rethink is not likely. The Welsh government has issued a
:06:52. > :06:56.statement saying, our policy on this is very clear to the next
:06:56. > :07:00.election. We're not going to change this. There is nothing in the
:07:01. > :07:04.figures to suggest we should. Everyone will be hoping they are
:07:04. > :07:09.right, the new figures showing applications for next year's
:07:09. > :07:18.courses are published this week. Only then will we have an idea if
:07:18. > :07:25.the sums are going to add up. Nobody expected good news on the
:07:25. > :07:29.economy, but it was worse than expected. Economic output fell by
:07:29. > :07:38.0.3% in 2012, and the UK may go into a third recession in four
:07:38. > :07:43.years. Manufacturing output fell by 1.5%, reinforcing the impression
:07:43. > :07:47.that the last year was a year of survival, not growth. There are
:07:47. > :07:52.still no immediate signs of prosperity returning to our
:07:52. > :07:56.factories, and high streets, anytime soon. There are now
:07:56. > :07:59.increasing calls, including from Nick Clegg and Boris Johnson for
:07:59. > :08:06.the Westminster government to change the strategy of public
:08:06. > :08:13.spending cuts, and to plough money into massive infrastructure
:08:13. > :08:18.projects. Would that work for Wales? Joining me is a former
:08:18. > :08:21.economic adviser to Margaret Thatcher. Thank you for coming in,
:08:22. > :08:30.the government has been cutting hard, they have been cutting deep,
:08:30. > :08:38.and eight they have been cutting fast? They have not been cutting as
:08:38. > :08:42.much as the Labour Party, or they have put themselves been -- they
:08:42. > :08:48.themselves have been saying. It has been quite a moderate series of
:08:48. > :08:56.cuts. Welfare spending has risen. If Boris Johnson is saying, hang on,
:08:56. > :09:01.we need to think again about this, we to invest in infrastructure, it
:09:01. > :09:05.just can't be about cutting? That is the problem. Infrastructure is
:09:05. > :09:09.an easy target, that criticism is reasonable. What is not reasonable
:09:09. > :09:13.is the idea that the British government can go ahead, and not
:09:13. > :09:18.worry about the deficit. We have one of the largest ones in the
:09:18. > :09:25.world, and we have to bring it down, the debt will spiral out of control,
:09:25. > :09:29.and we could get into a dangerous place. If you attack welfare, and
:09:29. > :09:37.benefit payments, you are going to have an effect on the economy.
:09:37. > :09:42.There is a whole section of the economy which is dependent on
:09:42. > :09:46.benefits? Economy is poorer as a result of the shock that has
:09:46. > :09:51.occurred. You cannot manufacture of riches in the economy. All we are
:09:51. > :09:55.talking about is the sharing of the austerity measures. Working people
:09:55. > :10:00.have been hit very hard by it. People on welfare benefits,
:10:00. > :10:08.obviously the pain of cuts has got to be shared pretty widely. You
:10:08. > :10:12.cannot let welfare rise by 6% in real terms. Multinationals like
:10:12. > :10:18.Starbucks are benefiting from not paying tax, you are suggesting that
:10:18. > :10:28.we should cut back on but their payments to the most vulnerable in
:10:28. > :10:29.
:10:29. > :10:39.society? There is no way you can let welfare romper away. We have to
:10:39. > :10:43.
:10:43. > :10:47.remember that Starbucks creates jobs. -- romp. They need sensible
:10:47. > :10:51.tax policies, business support, structure, they need to come to
:10:51. > :10:55.their senses over the regulation over the banks, that is killing
:10:55. > :10:59.credit. They need to get that going again, instead of going mad about
:10:59. > :11:05.regulating the banks, and piling up their costs. We need to get credit
:11:05. > :11:10.going. You are talking about what would benefit the Square Mile, the
:11:10. > :11:17.City, the south-east of England. There are two economies, there is
:11:17. > :11:21.that one, and the economy in Wales. That would benefit the people who
:11:21. > :11:31.have done pretty well on the last 30 years, the rest of us will be
:11:31. > :11:32.
:11:32. > :11:39.suffering was -- for sometimes? That is nonsense. This economy
:11:39. > :11:43.needs improvement to credit. We want to create growth in Wales, we
:11:43. > :11:52.don't want to increase handouts. The problem with government is that
:11:52. > :12:00.it has inherited a begin tartan that economy. It cannot afford it.
:12:00. > :12:04.-- entitlement economy. The fact that the matter raised, people in
:12:04. > :12:09.Wales don't have any jobs, they can't get any credit, they are
:12:09. > :12:15.absolutely on the floor, there are people who are suffering at the
:12:15. > :12:21.moment. Your recipe, you're ready, is good for the south-east, but how
:12:21. > :12:24.long would it be before Wales could recover under your plan? Wales is
:12:24. > :12:29.recovering at the same rate as everywhere else. The growth in
:12:29. > :12:36.employment is quite decent, nearly 2%. Wales is Sheringham that. You
:12:36. > :12:40.are painting the wrong picture. -- Wales is sharing in that. There are
:12:40. > :12:45.people who will be shouting at the television, come and live in my
:12:45. > :12:53.life. You are talking as an economist, bankers, profiteers have
:12:53. > :13:01.got us into this mess? Da is not really true. -- that is not really
:13:01. > :13:04.true. Changes in the world economy has affected us. We have to live in
:13:04. > :13:09.the world we are in, we have to adapt to that world, so does
:13:09. > :13:13.government. Ordinary people often feel that government should do more
:13:13. > :13:18.for them, but the problem is, they can look around, and see that the
:13:18. > :13:23.economy is in a bad state, because of the crisis. We'll have to adapt
:13:23. > :13:30.to these changes. Thank you very much.
:13:30. > :13:34.Here are some more disturbing figures, more than half of Welsh at
:13:34. > :13:37.-- adults are overweight, and we have some of the highest obesity in
:13:38. > :13:42.the UK are. The statistics show that the number of obese people in
:13:42. > :13:49.Wales lacks just behind that of the USA. What can be done to tackle the
:13:50. > :13:53.problem? Is surgery one of the solutions? Currently the criteria
:13:53. > :13:58.for surgery is different in England, patients only qualify if they have
:13:58. > :14:03.a higher body mass index, and they must show that they have more
:14:03. > :14:08.problems to qualify. One surgeon is calling for the threshold for the
:14:08. > :14:15.NHS funded surgery to be lowered. We will hear from him in a moment,
:14:15. > :14:25.he is a report. -- here's a report on a woman who tried dieting for
:14:25. > :14:35.
:14:36. > :14:40.years. She had to wait three years Life for me at 22 stone, 22.5, was
:14:40. > :14:47.very hard. I fell down the stairs twice because I could not see where
:14:47. > :14:52.I was going. These are things that people forget about. It is actually
:14:52. > :14:59.a disability as well when you are obese. I was classed as morbidly
:14:59. > :15:05.obese. I look like an elephant, don't I? I suppose I look like a
:15:05. > :15:13.hippo that way. Your confidence is just so low. It is in your feet.
:15:13. > :15:19.You just feel rubbish in yourself. You are at such a low ebb and the
:15:19. > :15:24.lower you feel, the more you eat for comfort. Even though you do not
:15:24. > :15:34.think you are eating much, you actually are. It is lovely when you
:15:34. > :15:37.
:15:37. > :15:41.go looking at the clothing that you have not had on in months. It is
:15:41. > :15:46.not a major operation. It is keyhole surgery and just because of
:15:46. > :15:51.that I have had a major life change. Every Tuesday I weigh myself to see
:15:51. > :15:59.what I have lost. Within the last five-and-a-half months I have lost
:15:59. > :16:06.5.5 stone. I am just absolutely over the moon. I am a totally
:16:07. > :16:10.different person. I am working. I am saving the NHS money. I am
:16:10. > :16:17.saving the council money. I am saving benefits money because I was
:16:17. > :16:23.on all that before. Now I suppose I am adding to the public purse,
:16:24. > :16:28.really. This is the size of a plate that I would eat normally, about
:16:28. > :16:35.four tablespoons, and I am full. A tour of beans does me three days.
:16:35. > :16:45.Marvellous. I get great value out of my foot now. I have had negative
:16:45. > :16:46.
:16:46. > :16:50.feedback from having a gastric sleeve done. I was quite shocked. I
:16:50. > :16:56.had an email from somebody saying to me, why don't you just shut your
:16:56. > :17:03.mouth and eat less and then lose weight? That was not the point.
:17:04. > :17:08.Give people the choice that are obese to have a life, to live, to
:17:08. > :17:17.come off these benefits and the NHS and everything else, by doing one
:17:17. > :17:24.simple operation. The operation is �20,000. Even that, I mean think of
:17:24. > :17:29.the long term. I have another 20 odd years working life. What am I
:17:29. > :17:32.paying back in with that? If I was to meet the people in Wales that
:17:32. > :17:38.have the say on who gets the operation and who does not, I would
:17:38. > :17:43.tell them to walk 10 miles in my shoes. At the end of the day, I
:17:44. > :17:48.think it is a right, I think it is everybody's right to live. Jenny
:17:48. > :17:53.cannon with some positive thinking. Joining me is Jonathan Berry, a
:17:53. > :17:59.consultant surgeon who carried out with operations at a hospital in
:17:59. > :18:07.Swansea. -- carries out weight loss operations. That look like a
:18:07. > :18:12.drastic operation but how effective is it? It is very effective. It is
:18:12. > :18:21.keyhole surgery and it removes a 2% of the stomach. It has a twofold
:18:21. > :18:25.action. -- 80% of the stomach. She will lose 60% of her weight over
:18:25. > :18:29.two years, but it is not so much just the weight loss, it is the
:18:29. > :18:34.improvement in diseases related to obesity. But it is quite an
:18:34. > :18:38.expensive procedure. What do you make of the opinion that somebody
:18:38. > :18:43.expressed, emailing her, by telling her not to eat so much? I disagree
:18:43. > :18:46.that it is expensive. We know that this kind of surgery is not just
:18:46. > :18:50.one operation but a number of operations, which pay for
:18:50. > :18:54.themselves in about two-and-a-half years. What I mean is that lots of
:18:54. > :18:59.people have issues with being overweight. We know with these type
:18:59. > :19:04.of operations that patients with diabetes, blood pressure issues, a
:19:04. > :19:07.multitude of issues associated with being overweight, they all go away.
:19:07. > :19:14.I sympathise with some arguments that these people should just go
:19:14. > :19:18.and eat less. However, if your vice is eating, much like smoking or
:19:18. > :19:24.alcohol, you can completely abstain from smoking or drinking alcohol,
:19:24. > :19:28.but we have all got to eat. Well, your solution might sound fine, but
:19:28. > :19:33.it is expensive at a time when the NHS is trying to find any way that
:19:33. > :19:39.it can to save money. Would it not be better to spend that money on
:19:40. > :19:42.prevention rather than an expensive cure? I completely agree. There are
:19:42. > :19:46.some public health strategies in place at the moment that believe
:19:46. > :19:50.that prevention is better than cure but that will not help my patients
:19:51. > :19:55.that are 25 stone, sitting at home. We all know that we should get off
:19:55. > :20:00.the bus one stop earlier, eat more fruit and fresh vegetables, but
:20:00. > :20:04.that is not the solution to these problems that the patients have.
:20:04. > :20:08.What are the criteria that should be used in Wales to decide whether
:20:08. > :20:12.a patient should qualify for the procedure that we saw in that film?
:20:12. > :20:17.When I was training in the surgery in England, if you were a patient
:20:17. > :20:23.with a body mass index of more than 40, that being a ratio of your
:20:23. > :20:30.height to wait, or the ratio of 35 with any issues like swollen ankles,
:20:30. > :20:34.you are eligible for this surgery. We have a bizarre situation in
:20:35. > :20:42.Wales where they have to have a body mass index of 50, twice the
:20:42. > :20:47.weight they should be, and have an controlled illnesses like diabetes,
:20:47. > :20:52.blood pressure and sleep apnoea. That clearly cannot go on. Would
:20:53. > :21:01.you so that they have to be parity between Wales and England? -- would
:21:01. > :21:05.you say? Certainly. We should move towards the English criteria. We
:21:05. > :21:09.should have 300 patients per year on a population of 3 million and we
:21:09. > :21:12.have 67, so there is catching up to do. Thank you.
:21:12. > :21:16.It is a moment that will live on in sporting history and it is
:21:16. > :21:26.incredible to think that it is 40 years ago to the date that this
:21:26. > :21:38.
:21:38. > :21:48.John Williams! Ryan Williams! John Dawes. Great dummy. Tom Davies. The
:21:48. > :21:53.
:21:53. > :21:58.Well, the try-scorer himself will be joining me to talk about but
:21:58. > :22:01.iconic moment and a very different sporting life. Four decades on, and
:22:01. > :22:05.it is football and not rugby drawing the big crowds to weekly
:22:05. > :22:09.matches in Wales, with the success of Cardiff city in the championship
:22:09. > :22:13.and Swansea's promotion to the Premier League. A question that
:22:13. > :22:19.once seemed unthinkable is now being asked. As football replaced
:22:19. > :22:22.rugby in the sporting hearts of the nation? Well, yes, according to one
:22:22. > :22:32.Welsh historian. He has been to his own theatre of dreams to tell us
:22:32. > :22:34.
:22:34. > :22:39.I think the time has come to face the fact that rugby has become the
:22:39. > :22:43.sick man of Welsh sport. We have got it wrong in terms of politics
:22:43. > :22:46.and administration. The focus has switched away from the clubs to the
:22:46. > :22:54.regions in a way that indicate that rugby is no longer catching the
:22:54. > :23:01.imagination of the people of Wales. There are some vibrant, lively
:23:01. > :23:04.clubs in Wales, like Party Brit. To be absolutely honest, the level of
:23:04. > :23:10.rugby in the Welsh Premiership is very poor indeed. The game has
:23:10. > :23:19.become tedious and boring. What of the international days? What are
:23:19. > :23:23.they now? The folk festival rather than imaginative in -- adventures
:23:23. > :23:26.that they once were. Football is a different kettle of fish. Everybody
:23:26. > :23:35.is talking about the game. In Singapore people are talking about
:23:35. > :23:42.Wayne Rooney, and of course of in that list is the Swansea. People
:23:42. > :23:46.are talking about Swansea around the world. Swansea being in the
:23:47. > :23:52.Premiership has taken Welsh sport to universal audience which has
:23:52. > :23:54.happened in an unprecedented way. Rugby, where are you? One
:23:54. > :23:59.consequence of this has been the whole nature of sporting
:23:59. > :24:04.conversation has changed in Wales. In the old days, we used to talk
:24:04. > :24:08.endlessly about the Welsh Rugby 15. We were always picking our dream
:24:08. > :24:12.team and we took great pride in spotting the new centre, the new
:24:12. > :24:20.back-row forward. It has all gone. Now we just talk about whether
:24:20. > :24:24.Bellamy will take City into the Premiership. Football no longer
:24:24. > :24:29.belongs to the fans in a bobble hats. Everybody is jumping on the
:24:29. > :24:34.bandwagon. If you know nothing about football, soccer, you can go
:24:34. > :24:40.to any social event, any dinner party at your peril. Those of us
:24:40. > :24:46.who grew up in the old days, when we stood with 5000 others, we know
:24:46. > :24:50.in our heart of hearts that the bubble might burst. The television
:24:50. > :24:53.money and foreign investment will go. But for the time being we have
:24:53. > :24:58.the festival of football, which has brought great players from all
:24:58. > :25:02.round the world to play in Cardiff and Swansea. What we must do at
:25:02. > :25:09.this vital moment is ensure that we invest in our own talent and
:25:09. > :25:12.produce our own stars. But the football culture that we are
:25:12. > :25:20.creating should be one of excellence, it should be home-grown.
:25:20. > :25:25.We must not just be spectators at this current feast of football.
:25:25. > :25:29.Joining me now is a rugby legend Gareth Edwards. First of all, we
:25:29. > :25:33.have to talk about that try. Did you think when you've scored it
:25:33. > :25:37.that you would be asked questions about it for the rest of your life?
:25:38. > :25:41.I was wondering if I would be asked questions about it after the game
:25:41. > :25:48.because I remember it was very early in the game. The only thought
:25:48. > :25:51.on mind and everybody else's minds was to beat New Zealand and I knew
:25:51. > :25:55.there would be a reaction. I thought it was vitally important to
:25:55. > :25:58.win the match but little did I think that at the time. I had a
:25:58. > :26:01.feeling from the noise of the crowd that maybe it had been something
:26:01. > :26:06.special, but I never thought for one minute that we would still be
:26:06. > :26:11.discussing it years later. It was not just special. It was
:26:11. > :26:16.inspirational, and not just for rugby players and supporters.
:26:16. > :26:23.Inspirational for sports men of all kinds. But picking up on that
:26:23. > :26:27.report, the suggestion is that a young generation now is being
:26:27. > :26:31.inspired by football and not by club rugby. That may very well be
:26:31. > :26:37.the case. I have enjoyed football all my life. I could have become a
:26:37. > :26:42.professional footballer. They ended up playing rugby, with no regrets.
:26:42. > :26:47.-- I ended up playing rugby. I enjoyed watching Swansea play this
:26:47. > :26:55.year and over the last years I have watched Cardiff City play. I like
:26:55. > :26:58.all sports in Wales. I don't care which side of the coin you on.
:26:58. > :27:03.you were a multi-talented sportsman as a young man, would you have made
:27:04. > :27:08.the same decision again? Would you go for rugby or football now?
:27:08. > :27:11.you are young, you do not think about money. Lots of people say
:27:11. > :27:15.that you want to play football because there is more money in it,
:27:15. > :27:21.but I don't think young children do that. I have grandson's that play
:27:21. > :27:26.rugby and soccer on the weekend, and they enjoy them both. I am
:27:26. > :27:31.encouraging them to do that. Nobody knows what the future is. Some
:27:31. > :27:37.children stop growing, so rugby, physical game, is not for them but
:27:37. > :27:41.football is. This is an old chestnut. We have discussed this
:27:41. > :27:49.over 30 or 40 years. When Wales beat Russia in the World Cup,
:27:49. > :27:53.soccer was the best game in Wales. When Wales did well winning the
:27:53. > :28:00.Grand Slam and the World Cup, rugby was the best game. Has regional
:28:00. > :28:04.club rugby inspired the following that soccer has got? I think that
:28:04. > :28:08.rugby per se needs to have a good look at itself. There is no doubt
:28:08. > :28:11.that there is excitement about soccer and the way it is played at
:28:11. > :28:17.the moment and of course there is the success that the local sides
:28:17. > :28:21.have had, Cardiff and song say, over recent years. That is a fact.
:28:21. > :28:26.-- Cardiff and Swansea. The regional game has not enjoyed the
:28:26. > :28:29.success that people had. They have not won the European Cup, which is
:28:29. > :28:36.possibly the stages by which we would be measured. But the Welsh
:28:36. > :28:40.national side has done extremely well. As much as I enjoy watching
:28:40. > :28:43.the national soccer side play, we have not won the World Cup
:28:44. > :28:49.qualifier never mind the World Cup. You have to compare like with like
:28:49. > :28:54.but that is difficult. Yes. We will all be rooting for Wales in the Six
:28:54. > :28:58.Nations. What is your tip? I think we can cause an upset. Everybody
:28:58. > :29:05.tends to think of Ireland as a favoured when they come to Cardiff,
:29:05. > :29:09.but I cannot see that. -- a favourite. It depends on injuries,
:29:09. > :29:14.no question, but if we can get some people back into the team, nothing
:29:14. > :29:18.will stop Wales. There will only ever be one Gareth Edwards. Thank
:29:18. > :29:23.you for joining us. That is it for the programme this week. You can