:00:04. > :00:08.crisis in confidence in Wales' largest health board after a damning
:00:08. > :00:10.report identifies substantial failings. A change in the law aimed
:00:10. > :00:15.at giving whistleblowers increased protection but could more be done
:00:15. > :00:18.for welsh workers who expose wrongdoing? And calls for tougher
:00:18. > :00:28.laws when it comes to protecting the environment in Wales. Stay with us
:00:28. > :00:48.
:00:48. > :00:50.for the Wales Report. Good evening and welcome to the Wales Report. And
:00:51. > :00:52.it's been quite a week in Welsh politics. There have been
:00:53. > :00:56.resignations, reshuffles, new partnerships AND a by-election date
:00:56. > :00:59.announced. More on all of that later in the programme. But first, let's
:00:59. > :01:02.turn our attention to the health service in Wales, and to a damning
:01:02. > :01:04.report into Wales' largest health board. The chair and chief executive
:01:04. > :01:06.of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health board have both stepped down
:01:07. > :01:16.following a shocking report - that found significant management
:01:17. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:29.failings - which it said could have meeting, not a public meeting, but
:01:29. > :01:34.by any standards it was an extraordinary affair. More than 100
:01:34. > :01:39.people packed into a highly charged atmosphere, but it was not long
:01:39. > :01:44.before individuals were expressing their disquiet. There were pleas for
:01:44. > :01:51.the protesters to stay silent or leave the meeting. One group 's
:01:51. > :01:55.patience snapped when they were told that Flint hospital was to close.
:01:55. > :01:58.Angry and frustrated, they spilled out into the corridors, still
:01:58. > :02:05.protesting and questioning the validity of the boards consultation
:02:05. > :02:10.exercise. Arguably, the writing was on the wall for the health board
:02:11. > :02:18.when, earlier this year, they met to finalise their controversial plans
:02:18. > :02:24.for reorganisation, based in part on a consultation exercise of their own
:02:24. > :02:28.making. Nobody believed them that they had been listening. Many people
:02:28. > :02:32.thought the plans were preordained and the consultation exercise was
:02:32. > :02:37.just a convenient smokescreen. When I spoke to the then chief executive
:02:37. > :02:44.of the health board, she and her staff seemed taken aback by my
:02:44. > :02:53.questions about the cost of that consultation exercise. How much did
:02:53. > :03:03.your consultation exercise cost? I stop you there? Where working it
:03:03. > :03:06.
:03:06. > :03:14.through right now. I can't answer that. That's an unfair question. It
:03:14. > :03:19.is very specific. Gosh, OK! I thought, having gone through a
:03:19. > :03:24.consultation exercise, you might have some idea of the cost of it. We
:03:24. > :03:33.spent probably around �30,000, but I can't guarantee that it will be
:03:33. > :03:37.more. Let's try another one, then. The outgoing chief executive in an
:03:37. > :03:42.interview with me earlier this year. Until now, until the
:03:42. > :03:49.appearance of this report, many health professionals and patients
:03:49. > :03:54.have felt their voices have gone unheard. Not any more, and for the
:03:54. > :04:04.first time, those at the sharp end can France -- Khan expressed their
:04:04. > :04:08.frustration is that at last, something is being done. This doctor
:04:08. > :04:14.is a consultant gynaecologist. He's also the chair of the BMA's Welsh
:04:14. > :04:19.council and gave me his reaction to highly critical report on his
:04:19. > :04:25.employers's failures. What is your overall reaction to what has been
:04:25. > :04:29.widely recognised as a highly critical report? We're not surprised
:04:29. > :04:35.at will by this. It's an issue we have been trying to raise with
:04:35. > :04:44.senior managers for some time. does it reflect and manifest itself
:04:44. > :04:48.here, in hospitals like this? have staff, trying their very best,
:04:48. > :04:54.under very difficult circumstances, to provide high-quality care, and
:04:54. > :05:04.not being given the facilities to practice to be highest standards
:05:04. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:08.they are used to. The consequence is we start chasing targets instead of
:05:08. > :05:10.treating patients. The difficulty we have had is we still have patients
:05:10. > :05:13.coming through our front door needing treatment. We believe the
:05:13. > :05:19.fundamental problem here is we are not starting with the patient and
:05:19. > :05:23.what is needed to treat the patient. We appear to be starting with the
:05:23. > :05:26.organisation of the health service and trying to fit patients to that
:05:26. > :05:33.organisation. It's a very difficult environment to be working in at the
:05:33. > :05:37.moment. It's very frustrating. You've only got to look at what has
:05:37. > :05:45.gone on with neonatal care and the transfer of neonatal intensive care
:05:45. > :05:48.to England, and you create a situation in which you are trying to
:05:48. > :05:53.get clinician engagement. The clinicians say it should stay in
:05:53. > :05:56.North Wales. You have public engagement. The public says it
:05:56. > :06:01.should stay in North Wales. And the health board wants to put it
:06:01. > :06:06.somewhere else. You'll have two ask the health board about that, but
:06:06. > :06:09.fortunately, the first Minister is also asking that question and we are
:06:09. > :06:15.very pleased to see the Royal College of paediatrics doing their
:06:15. > :06:19.review at the moment. This report makes a number of recommendations.
:06:20. > :06:26.Do you think it is also an opportunity for the health board in
:06:26. > :06:31.this area to grasp the nettle and start again, as it were, and deliver
:06:31. > :06:36.the sort of things that you would wish to see? There are huge
:06:36. > :06:41.opportunities to replan health care in North Wales. We have an interim
:06:41. > :06:45.medical director that we have every confidence in, we have a new
:06:45. > :06:50.director of nursing. All the things are there to engage with the
:06:50. > :06:54.clinical staff in a more proactive way. But that means empowering
:06:54. > :06:58.clinical staff on the front-line in getting rid of some of the big
:06:58. > :07:05.bureaucracy that has paralysed the health board in the past.
:07:05. > :07:10.message, then, is clear enough. The NHS brand has been badly damaged by
:07:10. > :07:14.this report, but it is also seen a chance to improve the service in
:07:14. > :07:22.North Wales, is service in which doctors will be listened to and the
:07:22. > :07:30.needs of patients put first. It may go some way to improving and
:07:30. > :07:32.repairing some of the damage. David Williams there. Legal changes have
:07:32. > :07:35.come into force this week that are aimed at providing greater
:07:35. > :07:38.protection to whistleblowers. Concerns have been raised about
:07:38. > :07:48.whether the law gives enough support to those who expose wrongdoing in
:07:48. > :07:52.
:07:52. > :07:55.the workplace, particularly in the NHS. Brian Meechan reports.
:07:55. > :08:00.Whistleblowers can provide invaluable information that exposes
:08:00. > :08:05.dangerous practices and some cases can save lives. Employers say they
:08:05. > :08:10.need to be able to rely on the confidentiality of their staff and
:08:10. > :08:16.safeguard their reputation. The law can provide a balance between the
:08:16. > :08:23.two. This woman was buoyed at the day centre run by Carmarthenshire
:08:23. > :08:28.Council. In 2005 she blew the whistle on the physical and verbal
:08:28. > :08:32.abuse of people with learning difficulties attending the centre.
:08:32. > :08:36.I've followed the whistleblowing policy. I went through seven
:08:36. > :08:43.reporting of news report I went to the ombudsman outside. Nobody helped
:08:43. > :08:47.me. Staff would come in and say they had aimed to not to speak to me and
:08:47. > :08:51.not to come into my office to talk to me. It was all psychological
:08:51. > :08:55.abuse where you would feel they were trying to wear you down and silence
:08:55. > :09:03.you from telling the truth. It was sort of years that I was being
:09:03. > :09:08.targeted. She eventually complained to the public service ombudsman and
:09:08. > :09:11.the route board concluded there were catastrophic failures in the
:09:11. > :09:18.handling of the case. Although she was in the right she paid a heavy
:09:18. > :09:26.price. I went off sick with work-related stress, my blood
:09:26. > :09:31.pressure was sky-high. I doctor said was no way I go back. I decided to
:09:31. > :09:38.resign, life was not worth living. I decided my health was more important
:09:38. > :09:45.and I designed. Employment law specialist see that whistleblowing
:09:45. > :09:50.is not straight forward. It can be a very long drawn-out process and
:09:50. > :09:54.foreign or even has not got a huge amount of the Rancho means that the
:09:54. > :10:02.fingertips, that can be very costly. The ultimate and Angela Ward that
:10:02. > :10:08.the end of it, may not even meet a cover of the cost of went through
:10:08. > :10:13.the process. With that going on from a financial live and perhaps a
:10:13. > :10:17.person has lost her job as a result of going the whistle, that can put
:10:17. > :10:22.an awful lot of stress on an individual and the family in time.
:10:22. > :10:26.Coupled with that there are allegations that may have been
:10:26. > :10:36.difficult and caused upset in the organisation that the employee has
:10:36. > :10:37.
:10:37. > :10:39.left. All of that will clock into a very big fish report. The UK
:10:39. > :10:44.government is responsible for whistleblowers because employment
:10:44. > :10:48.law is not devolved. There have been boosts to detection which means
:10:48. > :10:52.whistleblowers will no longer have you prove they were at Dean in good
:10:53. > :10:58.faith when they complained. It also means they will have two sure there
:10:58. > :11:03.are cases in the public interest. suspect the changes on track as well
:11:03. > :11:10.not fundamentally change the way they will courts approach these
:11:10. > :11:16.cases now. I think there is, as with many of these things, policy drive
:11:16. > :11:21.because of some of what has happened over the past year or so, to ensure
:11:21. > :11:25.this is brought into the spotlight and that Rangers have been made on
:11:25. > :11:31.the back of those policy drives. What I do think it's a shame is that
:11:31. > :11:37.we now are potentially encouraging whistleblowers who may not have
:11:37. > :11:43.those good motivations that people expect to see in these sorts of
:11:43. > :11:49.cases. Of whistleblowers charity is asking whether the law should go
:11:49. > :11:54.further, whether companies should he forced to have protection policies.
:11:54. > :12:00.Even whether cash incentives should be offered to whistleblowers as
:12:00. > :12:02.happens in the United States. There is no where near where concern over
:12:02. > :12:11.the protection of whistleblowers is more acute than in the health
:12:11. > :12:14.service, where transparency can be a matter of life or death. A report
:12:14. > :12:21.found years of abuse at Stafford Hospital and covering up of
:12:21. > :12:27.mistakes. A Royal College of nursing survey after that report found
:12:27. > :12:32.nurses in Wales were still worried about whistleblowing. 26% of those
:12:32. > :12:35.asked had been discouraged about raising concerns. 60% were not
:12:35. > :12:43.confident about being protected by the lawyer if he became
:12:43. > :12:49.whistleblowers. -- protected by the employer. The results were quite
:12:49. > :12:57.alarming. It showed that in many instances, over 60% of members in
:12:57. > :13:01.Wales felt that the week have severe repercussions if they were to
:13:01. > :13:05.whistleblowers about issues of concern. When we ask questions about
:13:05. > :13:10.what were those issues of concern, they would talk about immensely low
:13:10. > :13:16.staffing levels and also if they saw something untoward happening within
:13:16. > :13:23.an environment that they felt it was not necessarily the culture within
:13:23. > :13:28.the organisation to be able to share that information. Settlements
:13:28. > :13:32.between an employer and former employee of an include gagging
:13:32. > :13:36.orders which prevent further discussion of the case. There is
:13:36. > :13:40.concern that this leads to re-silencing of the whistleblower
:13:40. > :13:46.and the issues they have raised. Health boards have used these 35
:13:46. > :13:51.times. The UK government has warned that gagging orders should not be
:13:51. > :14:01.used to prevent former employees exposing wrongdoing in the public
:14:01. > :14:09.sector in England. This woman took on her employer and one but at a
:14:09. > :14:13.huge cost to herself. -- took on her employer and won. I do not regret it
:14:14. > :14:18.at all, I would not change anything, I think we are all on this if to
:14:18. > :14:26.help each other and that the end of the day I helped that person who
:14:26. > :14:31.could not speak up for herself so I have got no regrets. Some people can
:14:31. > :14:37.do it easier than others that it is a very lonely path to take. I have
:14:37. > :14:43.no regrets. The real test of these legal changes will be whether the
:14:43. > :14:51.help create the kind of environment where this woman and people like her
:14:51. > :14:59.can expose wrongdoing without having to pay such a heavy price. I am
:14:59. > :15:07.joined by Ian Hughes from the Welsh audit office. Part of your title is
:15:07. > :15:13.the whistleblowing manager, what does that mean? I look at internal
:15:13. > :15:19.arrangements if there are staff concerns. I can receive disclosures
:15:19. > :15:22.from people who work for the public sector in Wales. There might be
:15:22. > :15:26.people particularly in the public sector who are thinking right now
:15:26. > :15:34.they have seen something going on in the work base and they are
:15:34. > :15:39.concerned. They really have to bring this to public attention, they are
:15:39. > :15:44.going to blow the whistle and top to you, what protection can you give
:15:44. > :15:46.them? The simple answer to protection is none, we do not
:15:46. > :15:51.actually protect anybody. This is where they'd is a lot of confusion
:15:51. > :15:56.and potentially a weakness. The employment position of the personal
:15:56. > :15:59.and public issue disclosure act of the legislation to protect people
:15:59. > :16:03.means that should something and auction it happen to them by blowing
:16:03. > :16:09.the whistle when they get sacked, the are denied training
:16:09. > :16:17.opportunities, in they can bring a claim for detriment to the tribunal.
:16:17. > :16:22.They play a part in the tribunal proceedings. Do you regret that?We
:16:22. > :16:28.have no control authority over it, that is a legislation as it stands.
:16:28. > :16:37.That puts me right off, I might see something I am concerned about but I
:16:37. > :16:41.am really going to think you fully know, am I not? This should not be a
:16:41. > :16:47.factor. As an employee you want to know that if you have concerned you
:16:47. > :16:52.can act on them and eel with them. The fact it is detection at tribunal
:16:52. > :16:59.stage should be the last thing you have to think about, you want to put
:16:59. > :17:05.right whatever your concerns are. Other important as it that people do
:17:05. > :17:11.come forward in the public interest? It is very important. There is no
:17:11. > :17:15.way to go after that. The last place an employer can go is to blow the
:17:15. > :17:21.whistle. Everything has failed by then. What sort of thing are you
:17:21. > :17:24.looking for and with the interested in? We can receive allegations but
:17:24. > :17:30.we are not in investigating body that would investigate on behalf of
:17:30. > :17:36.people. The audit organisations so we would take on-board information
:17:36. > :17:40.received but they have no right to deceive an investigation from us. We
:17:40. > :17:46.will investigate if we think it is appropriate and with an Arab powers
:17:46. > :17:52.but we are not obliged. government at Westminster has been
:17:52. > :17:56.thinking of making much about protection for people but the
:17:56. > :18:00.reality on the ground seems to be something else. If people want to
:18:00. > :18:05.come forward and blow the whistle, see there is something seriously
:18:05. > :18:10.wrong in my public environment and the public as to bite this, they
:18:10. > :18:13.will be putting their jobs on the line. There should be proper
:18:13. > :18:20.procedures in place to make sure people can come forward without
:18:20. > :18:25.feeling recrimination. That is good practice. It should not happen.
:18:25. > :18:29.Organisations should be making that clear. There should be proper
:18:30. > :18:35.policies that are easy to understand. It should work well. We
:18:35. > :18:42.hear mainly about the cases where it does not work well. Can people come
:18:42. > :18:45.forward to you in confidence? will respect the full's
:18:45. > :18:51.confidentiality where we can but we cannot guarantee it, if we go in and
:18:51. > :18:56.ask questions about a particular alien sometimes the organisation can
:18:56. > :19:01.work out who has come to us. If matters all within our audit we met
:19:01. > :19:07.we will look into them and we will, depending on what they find,
:19:07. > :19:13.exercise our structure tree powers. Our statutory powers mean we can
:19:13. > :19:18.report in the public interest but we cannot discipline or prosecute. That
:19:18. > :19:26.is the furthest we can never take it. In most circumstances it is a
:19:26. > :19:30.very powerful mechanism. So what we are seeing is that to see effective
:19:30. > :19:34.whistleblowing and give people the protection they need, especially
:19:34. > :19:38.where these are genuine issues of public concern, there is still some
:19:38. > :19:47.way to go even after this legislation to give them the
:19:47. > :19:56.protection and support they should have. We have just had the
:19:56. > :20:05.whistleblowing commission set-up. It has worked in some places, but there
:20:05. > :20:08.is a long way to go until it is Now, it's been quite a week here in
:20:08. > :20:10.the home of Welsh democracy. began with the shock resignation of
:20:10. > :20:16.a Cabinet heavyweight, the Education Minister, Leighton Andrews,
:20:16. > :20:19.triggering an emergency reshuffle. The Rhondda AM has recently
:20:19. > :20:21.struggled to balance his government and constituency commitments, first
:20:21. > :20:24.by opposing the Labour-led decision to reorganise health services, and
:20:24. > :20:33.then for backing a campaign to save a school in his constituency which
:20:33. > :20:37.faces closure as a result of his own policy. And when Carwyn Jones failed
:20:37. > :20:43.to come to his aid here in the Chamber, the writing was clearly on
:20:43. > :20:46.the wall. So was it a simple "confusion" of roles? And what lies
:20:46. > :20:49.ahead for the man who has taken over that role, the new Education
:20:49. > :20:59.Minister, Huw Lewis? I've been speaking to former Minister Rhodri
:20:59. > :21:03.
:21:03. > :21:10.Morgan. It was a week in Welsh politics, but
:21:10. > :21:14.how damage to Labour? I don't think it's necessarily damaging.
:21:14. > :21:18.there's obviously a dispute at the heart of it, but I don't think it
:21:18. > :21:28.would lead to the kind of factions you have seen in the Australian
:21:28. > :21:31.
:21:31. > :21:40.Labour Party. Had you been a first Minister, would you have taken the
:21:40. > :21:44.same action? Without actually being there and knowing what the
:21:44. > :21:52.conversation was about the previous incident, but the hospital and the
:21:52. > :21:57.website, I don't know. Clearly, the minister is responsible for the
:21:57. > :22:00.policy on places, it is the local authority which then has the
:22:00. > :22:05.responsibility to implement or interpret those guidelines and
:22:05. > :22:10.policy. If you think the local authority has made a mistake, you're
:22:10. > :22:15.entitled to write a letter pointing that out. Are you entitled to have a
:22:15. > :22:23.placard, though, which makes it look as though you are undermining the
:22:23. > :22:30.whole policy? That is where I thought red card. That would be my
:22:30. > :22:34.interpretation. He is undoubtedly one of the big beasts of Labour
:22:34. > :22:43.politics in Wales. Can they afford to lose him at such a crucial moment
:22:43. > :22:51.in education? That's an egg that -- that's an academic question. There's
:22:51. > :22:54.no he will start challenging the first Minister for the leadership.
:22:54. > :23:00.He will look after his constituency and, as has happened on many
:23:01. > :23:06.occasions before, he will have a very good chance of coming back into
:23:06. > :23:13.the Cabinet. And even his political opponents would have to acknowledge
:23:13. > :23:18.he was a man of substance, a man of great intelligence, and a man of
:23:18. > :23:26.personality who was driving through changes, whether popular or not. And
:23:26. > :23:34.taking on Michael Gove. Are there is a sufficient number of individuals
:23:34. > :23:39.like that in Welsh politics today? He's found Hugh Lewis, but is that
:23:39. > :23:44.enough strength in depth of the squad? There's never enough strength
:23:44. > :23:48.in depth when you only have 60 people overall in the Assembly and
:23:48. > :23:53.30 on the Labour side, and nine Cabinet positions to fill. You will
:23:53. > :24:00.always struggle because of the small numbers. Juggling the small numbers
:24:00. > :24:06.is a huge issue because the Assembly is so small. Big issues at the
:24:06. > :24:12.moment. Lack of confidence, not only in education, but in the NHS. It's
:24:12. > :24:17.not lack of confidence. It's a very difficult issue. We got to discuss
:24:17. > :24:25.this in a grown-up way because public service reform in an era of
:24:25. > :24:31.spending cuts, something will happen in their constituency. People will
:24:31. > :24:36.tell ministers about that. undermines effective government,
:24:36. > :24:41.though, if everyone is watching what is going on in their backyard, it
:24:41. > :24:45.really suggests a kind of parochial attitude. People need to rise to the
:24:45. > :24:50.challenge of taking on these major issues facing us as a nation in
:24:50. > :24:56.dealing with them effectively. They are getting ever bigger because
:24:56. > :24:59.spending cuts will continue. But I think you can find a way of allowing
:24:59. > :25:05.ministers to represent their constituents, because that is their
:25:05. > :25:10.first duty. Doing that while implementing public service reform
:25:10. > :25:16.to save money and improve public services at the same time. And you
:25:16. > :25:22.need a top minister to deal with that. He will be given his
:25:23. > :25:27.opportunity to prove himself. We have to see, like all other
:25:27. > :25:31.ministers, you will learn on the job. I have been impressed with his
:25:31. > :25:37.first 48 hours on the job, but really, only time will tell. So
:25:37. > :25:43.where does the world 's government go from here? It will recover from
:25:43. > :25:50.the tremors of this week, and it's up to the new ministers, taking on
:25:50. > :25:55.their portfolios now, to work up as quickly as possible so they can
:25:55. > :26:00.stick -- so they can step up to the big shoes and get on with the job.
:26:00. > :26:10.It's up to, assuming Labour does well, to think seriously about where
:26:10. > :26:16.
:26:16. > :26:20.to accommodate Leighton. Are we doing enough to protect the
:26:20. > :26:23.great outdoors? Public Bodies in Wales COULD have to
:26:23. > :26:29.consider the impact their decisions have on the environment under plans
:26:29. > :26:32.by the Welsh Government. The proposed Sustainable Development
:26:32. > :26:35.Bill would make the public sector in Wales change the way it works in
:26:35. > :26:45.order to improve the effects its policies have on the environment and
:26:45. > :26:53.
:26:53. > :26:58.We only have one planet. Some of the resources on that planet are
:26:58. > :27:02.limited. We have got a growing population as well, so growing
:27:02. > :27:06.demand for those resources. Lots more competition, and if were not
:27:06. > :27:16.careful, we will find ourselves outcompeted and some of the things
:27:16. > :27:21.we depend on now. The consequences of global competition are being felt
:27:21. > :27:25.on our high streets. You can see that in rising prices, when we have
:27:25. > :27:31.a crisis of overproduction of wheat, and in some countries, there were
:27:32. > :27:36.riots over the price of bread. We have to put sustainable development
:27:36. > :27:44.at the heart of what we do in order to be able to cope with the kind of
:27:44. > :27:47.shocks the global system will throw at us. I guess, in Wales, we have
:27:47. > :27:54.had ten years of government taking small steps towards sustainable
:27:54. > :28:00.development. There's some really good examples of things, like here,
:28:00. > :28:04.we have got new homes built to much higher energy efficiency standards,
:28:04. > :28:08.so bills are lower the people, they can live in a nice house that
:28:08. > :28:14.doesn't cost them as much, and that is helping to tackle climate change.
:28:14. > :28:18.The trouble is there are lots of small examples. There isn't the
:28:18. > :28:22.scale of change necessary to meet the demands of the future, so what
:28:22. > :28:28.we really need is a sustainable development bill that will enable
:28:28. > :28:33.this to become the norm. The Welsh Government needs to strengthen its
:28:33. > :28:38.proposals for the bill. It must define what it means by sustainable
:28:38. > :28:41.development in the bill so that everybody is clear, and we don't
:28:41. > :28:47.saddle future generations with the consequences of our unsustainable
:28:47. > :28:51.choices. That's it for this week's programme.
:28:51. > :28:54.We'll be back next week where we'll be talking to the First Minister. If
:28:54. > :28:58.you have any questions for Carwyn Jones or comments on the issues