:00:00. > :00:16.image of the typhoon that's hit the Philippines. Now it is time for the
:00:17. > :00:20.Week In Parliament. Welcome to the Week In Parliament. As winter
:00:21. > :00:23.arrives, labour says the NHS is already struggling to cope at David
:00:24. > :00:29.Cameron defences government's record. There are more AMD
:00:30. > :00:39.consultants working in a and there were five ago. `` A He is
:00:40. > :00:43.complacent about the A crisis and what is happening in the NHS. Out of
:00:44. > :00:54.the shadows, top spy bosses in Britain talk publicly to an peace.
:00:55. > :00:59.`` MPs. The leaks from Edward Snowden put our operations at risk.
:01:00. > :01:03.It is clear that our advisories are rubbing their hands with glee. We
:01:04. > :01:10.asked two veterans if we have lost faith in our institutions. First,
:01:11. > :01:14.the Labour leader tackled the Prime Minister of the care and Alan A
:01:15. > :01:19.departments. He argued they are in crisis and were before the onset of
:01:20. > :01:25.winter. The Labour leader says there was a lack of senior doctors and a
:01:26. > :01:29.shortage of beds. Across the medical profession, they are saying there is
:01:30. > :01:33.a crisis in A departments and we have a Prime Minister saying that
:01:34. > :01:40.crisis, what crisis? How out of touch can he be? In the last year, 1
:01:41. > :01:51.million people waited more than five hours in A Delayed discharges are
:01:52. > :01:56.up, response times is up, why is this happening? There is top`down
:01:57. > :02:04.reorganisation that nobody is watching and nobody voted for. There
:02:05. > :02:09.are 5500 more doctors in the NHS and fairer 1000 more midwives in our
:02:10. > :02:14.NHS. There are more than 1000 health visitors in our NHS. The country
:02:15. > :02:21.would have hurt today that the Prime Minister is complacent about the A
:02:22. > :02:26.crisis and clueless about what is happening in the NHS. Watch the
:02:27. > :02:30.British people know is that the NHS is heading into winter with fewer
:02:31. > :02:37.nurses, a lack of senior A doctors and a shortage of beds. He promised
:02:38. > :02:43.he would protect the NHS but it is now clear that the NHS is not safe
:02:44. > :02:48.in his hands. He has rolled on the facts. There is a simple fact, there
:02:49. > :02:52.are more A consultants working in A than they were five years ago.
:02:53. > :02:59.That is why we are meeting our targets in England, and that is why
:03:00. > :03:04.Labour is missing targets in Wales. My job is to stand for the NHS and
:03:05. > :03:08.deliver a stronger NHS. When will he understand his job is to stand up to
:03:09. > :03:20.the police of United and show some courage. A member raised the idea of
:03:21. > :03:26.cutting jobs at Scotland and England after the completion of two Navy
:03:27. > :03:30.aircraft carriers. Newly 1800 people have learnt that they will lose
:03:31. > :03:33.their jobs and neither the Leader of the Opposition Prime Minister seem
:03:34. > :03:39.set to raise this issue so far. I hope that the Prime Minister's
:03:40. > :03:44.thoughts are with the families of people who will lose their jobs and
:03:45. > :03:48.will he confirm that he agrees with the statement that Glasgow is the
:03:49. > :03:59.best place to build frigates? I think the sense `` acting this is a
:04:00. > :04:02.vital issue. I difficult decisions and our thoughts should be with
:04:03. > :04:09.those who are affected. I was surprised that the leader of the
:04:10. > :04:13.opposition to the addresses. We need the Royal Navy to have the best and
:04:14. > :04:16.most modern ships with the best technology. We will go on northern
:04:17. > :04:21.warships on the client. We will announce three new offshore patrol
:04:22. > :04:26.vessels keeping that you busy, rather than paying it to remain idle
:04:27. > :04:30.as the last of the proposed. Yes, there will be job reductions, but
:04:31. > :04:34.there are many more people involved in ships servicing them building.
:04:35. > :04:38.The workforce will go from 12,000 to 11,000 but nobody should be in any
:04:39. > :04:44.doubt of two things ` under the scum that will have aircraft carriers,
:04:45. > :04:48.frigates, submarines. They should also know that if there was an
:04:49. > :04:52.independent Scotland, we wouldn't have any warships at all. Nearly
:04:53. > :04:58.1800 jobs are to go in British shipbuilding. Now, to Thursday. For
:04:59. > :05:01.the first time, the heads of the British intelligence agencies have a
:05:02. > :05:08.peer to publicly before a committee. Inevitably, one of the main topics
:05:09. > :05:13.was the leaking of information by Edward Snowden. It revealed some of
:05:14. > :05:17.the activities of UK's listening stations, GCHQ. Some of that
:05:18. > :05:23.appeared in The Guardian newspaper. It is sometimes argued that the
:05:24. > :05:27.people responsible for these publications have not mentioned
:05:28. > :05:35.names, details, they have simply rip referred to general capabilities. Is
:05:36. > :05:41.there any validity? It seems on the face of it that that seems to be
:05:42. > :05:49.much less damaging. How do you,? I am not sure that the journalists who
:05:50. > :05:59.are managing this very sensitive information are particularly placed
:06:00. > :06:05.to make these judgements. The leaks from Edward Snowden have been very
:06:06. > :06:11.damaging, put our operations at risk. It is clear our advisories are
:06:12. > :06:23.rubbing their hands with glee, Al Coyte as lapping it up. `` Al`Qaeda.
:06:24. > :06:28.The you feel entitled to say that? Why do you believe it to be true? My
:06:29. > :06:35.colleagues have really set out how the alerting of targets and overseas
:06:36. > :06:42.to our capabilities means it becomes more difficult. Head of MI6
:06:43. > :06:45.answering questions from the chairman of the Intelligence and
:06:46. > :06:51.Security Committee, a conservative and former secretary. He joins me in
:06:52. > :06:58.the studio. Mark, let's begin with your question. Why had this hearing
:06:59. > :07:04.in public? It is an easy one to answer. Most of what the
:07:05. > :07:11.intelligence agencies do is what we do as the committee has to be done
:07:12. > :07:14.in private. We are discussing highly secret material. There is public
:07:15. > :07:21.interest but if you have intelligence agencies spending ?2
:07:22. > :07:24.billion of taxpayers and they have powers to do things that intercept
:07:25. > :07:30.e`mails and conversations on the telephone, these are powers that
:07:31. > :07:34.nobody else has. Therefore, the reason why these powers are
:07:35. > :07:37.necessary, to be reassured that they only use these powers when they have
:07:38. > :07:44.legal authority to do so, that must be part of a wider public debate. It
:07:45. > :07:49.must be an open society. Given what they do, you had to be careful that
:07:50. > :07:55.the things that you could ask them, and so, what did we learn? Would you
:07:56. > :08:02.say that, no, we had to be careful that we had to do so in the
:08:03. > :08:04.knowledge that we had to get into detail and they couldn't answer
:08:05. > :08:06.certain things in public. That is what happened on one or two
:08:07. > :08:11.occasions. I don't criticise them for that. Obviously, most people
:08:12. > :08:18.that have commented on that, they said it was worth having as, it was
:08:19. > :08:21.an historic event. The committee didn't grill them enough. They
:08:22. > :08:26.didn't go into enough detail to prove what they were certain. The
:08:27. > :08:30.reality is, we're not like the Public Accounts Committee or another
:08:31. > :08:33.committee of Parliament. Because we with secret information, and I make
:08:34. > :08:38.an accusation as to where you have done something and you deny it, I
:08:39. > :08:43.would then ask you to reduce evidence. Now, we do do that but
:08:44. > :08:48.that has redone and private sessions. We can't do that in
:08:49. > :08:51.public. The purpose of yesterday was not just theatre, it was to
:08:52. > :08:57.concentrate most of the discussion, which is what we do, on what was the
:08:58. > :09:01.perception of the threat. What is the united kingdom facing? What is
:09:02. > :09:08.the general judgement and the effect of the damage brought out by Edward
:09:09. > :09:12.Snowden? These are the things you can bring out in public. There is no
:09:13. > :09:14.point in expecting to press him on hard secret evidence because you
:09:15. > :09:24.know why they can't provide that in public. The head of liberty said
:09:25. > :09:28.this wouldn't have scared a puppy. Yes, they would have said that.
:09:29. > :09:32.Unless they revealed tried to reveal every single secret that they had,
:09:33. > :09:36.they would have found reasons to complain, that is a job. I don't
:09:37. > :09:42.blame them. They are not representatives of the general
:09:43. > :09:45.public. All of the evidence of whatever Zorzi go to, there is
:09:46. > :09:49.understanding that if you have secret agents, and sadly we need
:09:50. > :09:55.them, if you have them, they have to retain secrets. Their objective is
:09:56. > :10:01.to ensure that we have, as a committee, we ensure that they are
:10:02. > :10:08.obeying the law, behaving in a reasonable way, there is acceptable
:10:09. > :10:12.reasons for what they do, and if we find they are failing, we can
:10:13. > :10:17.condemn them in public. How much of your time in his private sessions as
:10:18. > :10:21.spent making sure that they go by the law, and how do you know they
:10:22. > :10:25.are doing it? If you are asking me a year ago and would have had to admit
:10:26. > :10:30.that we didn't have the kind of powers we would need to do our job
:10:31. > :10:34.properly. Law passed in the past few months has given us power that we
:10:35. > :10:38.need. We reviewed our powers at the beginning of the Parliament and set
:10:39. > :10:43.it the committee needs updated powers of a substantial kind. For
:10:44. > :10:49.example, in the past we could only ask intelligence agencies for
:10:50. > :10:57.information, we couldn't requirement to provide it. The tragic death of
:10:58. > :11:01.Lee Rigby, we are a one star. For the first time ever, we can go into
:11:02. > :11:07.the intelligence agencies' and buildings, look at their files, and
:11:08. > :11:22.ask staff. `` there . Sometimes expand most of the day in
:11:23. > :11:27.the headquarters of GCHQ and MI6 looking at what they do and getting
:11:28. > :11:32.full briefings with ordinary star. This is a serious operation. By its
:11:33. > :11:42.nature, most of it has to be done behind doors. What which include...
:11:43. > :11:45.That is only can go public. It is also up to us to demonstrate that
:11:46. > :11:55.Allah judgement deserves to be trusted. `` that alloy judgement.
:11:56. > :12:00.Do you think this will become a regular event? Yes, but not a
:12:01. > :12:04.substitute to what we already do and what we will continue to do. I
:12:05. > :12:10.imagine 90% of our meetings will have to be in private because there
:12:11. > :12:16.is no use having security and spends all of its time and public sessions.
:12:17. > :12:21.To do our job, we need private sessions but there will be other
:12:22. > :12:24.public sessions. We perform a viable role in the name of Parliament and
:12:25. > :12:28.public to understand a lot more about the intelligence agencies
:12:29. > :12:34.without giving comfort to the bad man.
:12:35. > :12:44.There was another dramatic committee hearing here in the week. The latest
:12:45. > :12:48.twist in what is known as an affair where police officers gave evidence
:12:49. > :12:56.over a meeting with Andrew Mitchell. He is the former chief whip resigned
:12:57. > :13:00.after an with police officers. The officers who were called to the home
:13:01. > :13:03.affairs Select Letta held a meeting with him about the incident. Their
:13:04. > :13:07.version of the meeting had been called into question. The officers
:13:08. > :13:12.had then summoned to a committee and then recalled. The question was,
:13:13. > :13:21.what they apologised to the former Minister? `` would they. I can't
:13:22. > :13:24.apologise for something I haven't done and a number of accusations
:13:25. > :13:27.have been raised which I totally refute and to which I was not party,
:13:28. > :13:30.so I cannot apologise for something I haven't done. But I certainly
:13:31. > :13:34.regret any distress caused and it wasn't my intention. To Mr Mitchell
:13:35. > :13:37.and his family? Yes. I recognise the distress it has caused his family
:13:38. > :13:40.and I would urge that the CPS report and the investigation into that
:13:41. > :13:48.matter is concluded as speedily as possible. So you are not wanting to
:13:49. > :14:00.apologise to Mr Mitchell and his family for distress, as your
:14:01. > :14:03.colleague has? I am saying that I recognise distress has been caused
:14:04. > :14:06.and I think it would be best if... I think the answer is no, you are not
:14:07. > :14:09.going to apologise. I cannot apologise for something I didn't do.
:14:10. > :14:12.Two police officers defending their role in the Plebgate affair.
:14:13. > :14:19.Which got us thinking ` have we lost trust in our public institutions?
:14:20. > :14:22.Are we all just more sceptical than we used to be when it comes to the
:14:23. > :14:25.police, parliament, the NHS or any of our big state institutions?
:14:26. > :14:32.I asked two MPs with long experience of Parliament and power.
:14:33. > :14:34.Ken Clarke is in the Cabinet as Minister Without Portfolio, but has
:14:35. > :14:37.held a cornucopia of Government jobs, from Home Secretary, to
:14:38. > :14:39.Health, to Chancellor of the Exchequer. While Labour's Margaret
:14:40. > :14:41.Hodge is currently best known for chairing the no`holds`barred Public
:14:42. > :14:44.Accounts Committee, which delves deep into who's spending our money
:14:45. > :14:47.and how. I asked Ken Clarke how trust in our
:14:48. > :14:50.institutions has changed over his 30 years in politics.
:14:51. > :14:58.Completely. In my lifetime, certainly, it has transformed. The
:14:59. > :15:02.1960s were a formative time for me, I wasn't in the House of Commons
:15:03. > :15:05.then but I was one of those youngish guys who delighted at the end of the
:15:06. > :15:08.age of deference, the closed world of politics suddenly opening up to
:15:09. > :15:14.more public scrutiny and some of the dafter traditions beginning to fade.
:15:15. > :15:17.Now we have gone completely to the other extreme and the current mood
:15:18. > :15:20.of the public about all public institutions, including Parliament,
:15:21. > :15:25.is one of deep cynicism and a deep sense of distrust, which has gone
:15:26. > :15:30.too far the other way. It is dangerous to democracy. Standards of
:15:31. > :15:34.honesty and ability in politics are somewhat higher than they are in
:15:35. > :15:41.most other walks of life in this country but that is regarded as a
:15:42. > :15:45.startling thing to say. We will pick up on some of those points later but
:15:46. > :15:48.what I really wanted to ask you to start with is how has the Government
:15:49. > :15:51.responded to that change in trust? It has tried, but it hasn't been
:15:52. > :15:55.very successful. The best way to respond is by demonstrating that you
:15:56. > :15:58.can deliver. The problem the Government and the Opposition have
:15:59. > :16:02.is we are in the age of mass media, which is fine, no complaint about
:16:03. > :16:05.that, but we have a public with very much higher expectations than it
:16:06. > :16:14.used to have, so we do have constant campaigning. You can no longer just
:16:15. > :16:21.govern and then electioneer every now and again when your term is
:16:22. > :16:24.coming to an end. Every day of the week now is some hysterical subject
:16:25. > :16:29.matter being subject to the great crisis of the day and you have to
:16:30. > :16:31.campaign your way through it. Margaret Hodge, do you think we have
:16:32. > :16:35.seen an increasing demand for transparency in all things? That
:16:36. > :16:38.doesn't necessarily make things easier for people to understand,
:16:39. > :16:46.because more information can make life more complicated. Two words I
:16:47. > :16:49.was thinking of as Ken was answering the question was that people are
:16:50. > :16:51.demanding more transparency and they are demanding clearer
:16:52. > :16:56.accountability, and part of that is 24/7, but also it is the revolution
:16:57. > :17:04.of various other things. There is distrust in politics and here I
:17:05. > :17:08.disagree with Ken a little bit. In 2001, I had a very low turnout in my
:17:09. > :17:14.constituency, and then later on, the BNP found their way into Barking. I
:17:15. > :17:17.did some work, among women in particular, on one of my more
:17:18. > :17:20.deprived estates and what I found there was there was not apathy about
:17:21. > :17:28.what we were up to here in Westminster, but there was real
:17:29. > :17:31.anger about what we were up to. And most of their politics, and this is
:17:32. > :17:34.what is so interesting, starts from the very local. They really care
:17:35. > :17:39.about what is happening in their immediate community. Is that one of
:17:40. > :17:43.the reasons people can be very angry, seeing failings like things
:17:44. > :17:48.in the police? We all have examples where policing has gone wrong, or
:17:49. > :17:51.the NHS? Things like Stafford? These are the things that people can
:17:52. > :17:55.understand and connect with and these failings make them angry.
:17:56. > :17:58.First of all, I think you rebuild trust by delivering the local, so if
:17:59. > :18:02.you can deliver cleaner streets, build a new bus stop, that begins to
:18:03. > :18:05.build trust and secondly, yes, you are right and I think one of the
:18:06. > :18:08.reasons that the Public Accounts Committee has captured the public
:18:09. > :18:10.mood is because we reflect the frustration that people feel about
:18:11. > :18:23.things going wrong not once, but time and time and time again. Their
:18:24. > :18:29.money is being used to deliver services and we don't deliver
:18:30. > :18:32.efficiently. This isn't a partisan view, we don't deliver efficiently,
:18:33. > :18:37.they see their money wasted and nothing seems to change. I think us
:18:38. > :18:40.shining a light on that from our committee has really captured and
:18:41. > :18:44.touched the public mood. Ken Clarke, do you think that in a
:18:45. > :18:46.way, that can add to the problem? One of the standard Parliamentary
:18:47. > :18:52.Government responses to anything going wrong is to set up an enquiry.
:18:53. > :18:55.It looks at the problem, it shines a light on it, it gets a lot of
:18:56. > :19:00.publicity and it makes people more disillusioned, more cynical. It has
:19:01. > :19:03.always been the case that public attention has focused more on the
:19:04. > :19:05.failings of Government and anything else, that is inevitable because it
:19:06. > :19:11.is more newsworthy apart from anything else. You can cope with
:19:12. > :19:14.that normally, because there are ways in which you are held to
:19:15. > :19:18.account that change over the years. I don't think that is the problem. I
:19:19. > :19:22.don't disagree with what Margaret said. What she said about her
:19:23. > :19:28.electors in Barking applies to electors everywhere. There is a deep
:19:29. > :19:31.cynicism and distrust and anger. That is why all Western democracies
:19:32. > :19:36.are producing right wing fringe parties. They don't actually
:19:37. > :19:42.represent any particular policies, they represent an anger at the
:19:43. > :19:45.political class. One of the things that government
:19:46. > :19:48.does to try and say how you can trust these institutions is to set
:19:49. > :19:52.targets for everything. That doesn't work either. No, I'm not in favour
:19:53. > :19:55.of setting targets. The targets started because the ministers liked
:19:56. > :20:02.taking credit for the targets. It is easier to set them than it is to
:20:03. > :20:05.achieve them. So your target is so attractive that you get a vast
:20:06. > :20:08.amount of applause for setting it but some unfortunate successor has
:20:09. > :20:11.to explain why you didn't hit it. Just to be a little party political,
:20:12. > :20:17.we inherited dozens of those, Margaret. I know, so we move from
:20:18. > :20:27.targets to outcomes. I can't really see the difference. We are actually
:20:28. > :20:29.judged by our outcomes. The sensible public judge Government and public
:20:30. > :20:34.services by whether they feel they are get better or not. They take
:20:35. > :20:45.these individual things in proportion. The trouble with three
:20:46. > :20:48.Police Federation officers in the West Midlands has not destroyed
:20:49. > :20:50.trust in the police. Those things are not cumulative.Trust in
:20:51. > :20:54.institutions is a cumulative thing, so you may have a problem with the
:20:55. > :20:57.NHS, in Stafford in particular, so the Government launches an enquiry,
:20:58. > :21:02.look at the problem and come up with recommendations. You might think it
:21:03. > :21:06.make things better until the next hospital failure and trust in the
:21:07. > :21:11.NHS is damaged over a period of time. The NHS is the biggest
:21:12. > :21:14.employer in Western Europe, there are very few rivals to such a giant
:21:15. > :21:18.organisation. The Chinese People's Army, the Indian state railways.
:21:19. > :21:25.Every now and again, you will find bits of it that makes mistakes. The
:21:26. > :21:28.important thing, one of them, about the Stafford review is that the old
:21:29. > :21:31.instinct that pervaded the entire public sector when I started, to
:21:32. > :21:35.cover up and make sure that the criticism does not get to the
:21:36. > :21:48.outside world and you all close ranks, which is an understandable
:21:49. > :21:52.reaction, that is being blown apart. I have to say, we have had
:21:53. > :21:55.Colchester this weekend that was a cover`up of poor standards, so there
:21:56. > :21:58.is still a tendency and you could argue, because you have targets, if
:21:59. > :22:01.you don't meet the targets, you cover`up. I think one of the real
:22:02. > :22:04.challenges facing us in the public sector, if you're going to build
:22:05. > :22:07.trust, is you have to have measurements that will allow you to
:22:08. > :22:12.assess if the service is delivering what you want. Whether you call it a
:22:13. > :22:19.target or an outcome, it does have unintended consequences. So people
:22:20. > :22:39.go for one thing and they missed the main point of the target for a
:22:40. > :22:43.public service. One very last and quick thought from
:22:44. > :22:47.both of you, do you think we are looking at this the wrong way around
:22:48. > :22:50.and we should get used to the idea that the public did not have trust
:22:51. > :22:53.in the big institutions anymore and maybe embrace that? No, I think it
:22:54. > :22:55.is hugely important if you're talking about politics and
:22:56. > :22:59.parliament, it is hugely important that we listen to the anger that
:23:00. > :23:06.people feel and that we look at ways of re`establishing trust. And my
:23:07. > :23:09.answer to this is you start not from setting an agenda, allow your
:23:10. > :23:12.constituents to set the agenda, build the trust on what matters to
:23:13. > :23:14.them then engage them on the rather bigger national issues which obsess
:23:15. > :23:19.us here. Ken Clarke? Hugely important. You
:23:20. > :23:22.don't have a healthy democracy from most of the population don't vote,
:23:23. > :23:25.people don't vote the local Government institutions and you
:23:26. > :23:28.don't have a healthy democracy if it is obvious that a significant
:23:29. > :23:30.proportion of those who do vote of casting angry protest vote. I have
:23:31. > :23:33.never, throughout this programme, denied that there is a deep
:23:34. > :23:44.underlying problem but there is no populist, simplistic way out. It is
:23:45. > :23:47.just about raising the performance of institutions, Parliament and what
:23:48. > :23:50.they deliver and then lecture the public a bit and say you need to
:23:51. > :23:53.take it seriously and adolescent cynicism should not be applied to
:23:54. > :23:56.every aspect of public life. Listen, not lecture.
:23:57. > :24:00.Thank you both very much for coming in to see us.
:24:01. > :24:03.Ken Clarke and Margaret Hodge on public trust.
:24:04. > :24:19.At the end of a week dominated by spooks, ships and the NHS.
:24:20. > :24:27.The wettest stay is likely to be Saturday. A repeat performance of
:24:28. > :24:32.what we had previously. Some sunny weather on Saturday morning across
:24:33. > :24:40.eastern Scotland will stop a touch of frost. Some showers coming into
:24:41. > :24:45.the north`west of England, east of the Pennines should be dry and
:24:46. > :24:47.brighter. A dry start in the Midlands to was to ``