:00:00. > :00:00.complete. That hasn't happened yet. People here are cautious. They do
:00:00. > :00:00.not want to be taken for a ride. James Landale, BBC News. Now on BBC
:00:00. > :00:19.News time for The Week in Parliament.
:00:20. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to the Week in Parliament. HS2. The guard has blown
:00:25. > :00:36.his whistle, but not everyone's on board. Is this the best way to spend
:00:37. > :00:39.350 billion pounds worth of taxpayers money? MPs will examine
:00:40. > :00:43.the minute details of the project, but is that really the best use of
:00:44. > :00:51.an MP's time? This is a Victorian type procedure. I do not think
:00:52. > :00:58.backbench MPs will be able to do the job properly because of their other
:00:59. > :01:02.responsibilities. Also on the programme: We hear from the man
:01:03. > :01:05.who's been deciding what new powers should go to the Welsh Government.
:01:06. > :01:09.No need to book in advance quite yet. The first HS2 trains won't be
:01:10. > :01:12.departing much before 2026. If it does happen, it'll only be after
:01:13. > :01:28.plenty of arguments, disputes and protests. And MPs will be playing
:01:29. > :01:30.their part in how the High Speed Rail Project develops, with a
:01:31. > :01:33.special committee examining minutely every detail of the 350 billion
:01:34. > :01:36.pound scheme. It's tough work, and two MPs will shortly give us the
:01:37. > :01:39.benefit of their experience. But first, let's backtrack to Monday
:01:40. > :01:42.when the Commons voted massively in favour of the London to West
:01:43. > :01:45.Midlands phase of the project. The Transport Secretary took MPs back to
:01:46. > :01:49.the time of the building of the original West Coast Main Line. It is
:01:50. > :01:53.worth recalling that in 1832 Parliament rejected the initial Bill
:01:54. > :01:56.because some people objected. They argued that the canals were all
:01:57. > :02:04.you'd ever need for long`distance travel. Today we ask far too much of
:02:05. > :02:11.this line. I stand at the dispatch box today to support HS2. A new
:02:12. > :02:14.North`South railway line. I do so with much humility and not a little
:02:15. > :02:17.trepidation, but also confidence, because while I understand the
:02:18. > :02:20.concerns of those whose constituents are affected by the route, I also
:02:21. > :02:31.know that this is a decision we cannot avoid. We have waited long
:02:32. > :02:34.enough. Is it not the case that all major infrastructure projects are
:02:35. > :02:38.rejected at the time they are created, but 50 years on people are
:02:39. > :02:40.fully supportive of what took place? This proposal is deeply flawed, has
:02:41. > :02:51.never been scrutinised properly, or planned properly. That is what we
:02:52. > :02:53.worry about because so many of the independent inquiries find on the
:02:54. > :02:56.negative, not the positive, about HS2. Managed properly HS2 has the
:02:57. > :03:00.power to transform the economic geography of our country. It will
:03:01. > :03:05.build our great cities and bring them closer together. It will
:03:06. > :03:08.connect people. It will help rebalance the economy, creating new
:03:09. > :03:16.skilled jobs and apprenticeships in every nation and region. Is this
:03:17. > :03:24.really the top priority and the best way to spend 350 billion pounds of
:03:25. > :03:28.taxpayers money? I have come to look at this project and I do not believe
:03:29. > :03:44.this is the answer to the UK's transport issues. It sounds like we
:03:45. > :03:47.are being short`sighted. It sounds like we are trying to compete with
:03:48. > :03:51.the rest of Europe. Actually, there is not an awful lot wrong with our
:03:52. > :04:03.rail network if we had invested properly. Next day came discussion
:04:04. > :04:09.about the committee that'll carry out the job of studying all the
:04:10. > :04:12.details of HS2. I am afraid the committee will be rather like a
:04:13. > :04:16.referee in a football match or any other sport. Whatever the decision
:04:17. > :04:24.they make, some people will be upset by it. We should give them as full
:04:25. > :04:36.support as we can. Some expert advice from specialists. We were
:04:37. > :04:39.there to give an independent judgement on the facts, and the
:04:40. > :04:50.whole proceeding was conducted with barristers there arguing for and
:04:51. > :04:53.against the case. Members of these committees were there to analyse and
:04:54. > :04:56.listen to the arguments and then reach a decision on the facts of the
:04:57. > :04:59.evidence that they had been given, on the grounds that they were taking
:05:00. > :05:16.what they believed were the right interests and best interests of the
:05:17. > :05:19.project. The job of the chair will be equally onerous for all members.
:05:20. > :05:24.That was Simon Burns predicting tough times ahead for the committee.
:05:25. > :05:29.You were on the committee that looked at the crossrail project.
:05:30. > :05:52.What was life like inside that committee? It was a cross`party
:05:53. > :05:55.committee. At the beginning we decided that we would all get on
:05:56. > :05:59.well together and we drew up a roter to make sure we always have a
:06:00. > :06:03.quorum. There was a high level of cooperation. But it was a marathon.
:06:04. > :06:17.The fact that most of the MPs were independently minded meant that the
:06:18. > :06:19.petitioners got a good hearing. We made recommendations to the
:06:20. > :06:22.Government, to build stations where they have not been proposed, and the
:06:23. > :06:26.governments delivered on those. It was a huge task. You had a slightly
:06:27. > :06:42.shorter time on this committee. Does this process work well? It worked
:06:43. > :06:57.well. Residents felt they had their hearing. Fundamental small changes
:06:58. > :07:00.were made. My problem with this is that this is a Victorian type
:07:01. > :07:11.procedure and we are now living in the 21st`century. Most MPs do not
:07:12. > :07:16.see the role as having this level of scrutiny. They see themselves as
:07:17. > :07:23.local champions on a range of constituency related issues. Because
:07:24. > :07:40.HS2 is close to my constituency I would not be on that sort of
:07:41. > :07:44.committee. The danger is that you have MPs who have no real interest
:07:45. > :07:59.and you have to go through the motions. Give us a flavour of what
:08:00. > :08:19.you actually do. What is the format? It is a quasi`legal process. We have
:08:20. > :08:22.barristers there. We listen to what they have to say. We evaluate what
:08:23. > :08:25.is being said and how the Government should respond. Someone might be
:08:26. > :08:27.concerned because it will damage their property. They might be
:08:28. > :08:35.concerned because they think there should be a railway station and a
:08:36. > :08:38.certain place. `` in a certain place. We will hear the detailed
:08:39. > :08:48.evidence and then make recommendations. It sounds effective
:08:49. > :08:50.in the way you have described it. The danger is that articulate
:08:51. > :08:59.middle`class people have more to say. The worry is that they have
:09:00. > :09:18.their voice in a way that less well off people do not. Would you change
:09:19. > :09:21.the process? I would. I do not think MPs should be the people listening
:09:22. > :09:24.to the concerns because I do not think backbench MPs will be able to
:09:25. > :09:27.do the job properly because of their other responsibilities. To do it
:09:28. > :09:31.properly it is almost a full`time job. I was on three other select
:09:32. > :09:34.committees at the time. I had a range of other matters that I was
:09:35. > :09:38.working on. It was almost impossible to do the job properly. We should
:09:39. > :09:46.keep the strengths of the system, but I am not convinced it is a good
:09:47. > :09:50.idea. Someone has to do it, but the trouble is that MPs will not be able
:09:51. > :09:53.to do it to the best of their ability because they have other
:09:54. > :10:09.demands on their time. It would be better if we had a shorter full`time
:10:10. > :10:12.process. Parliament could perhaps vote on that. Maybe MPs would see at
:10:13. > :10:15.that point. The cumbersome way it is dealt with at the web is not
:10:16. > :10:19.defensible in the 21st`century. Would it be a panel of legal people?
:10:20. > :10:24.It could be. Or it could be politicians. We could have a debate.
:10:25. > :10:36.It would have to be people that were willing to listen to the
:10:37. > :10:41.petitioners. What do you think about that idea? I share some of those
:10:42. > :10:47.concerns. We have a culture in our country which is that you have the
:10:48. > :10:51.chance to have your say. I would not like to see a situation like in
:10:52. > :10:58.China or even in France where a Government can go roughshod. The
:10:59. > :11:02.worry is that with these infrastructure issues that there is
:11:03. > :11:05.a lot of delay and at the end of the day you may not get the sort of
:11:06. > :11:11.improvements that will keep everybody happy. The builders who
:11:12. > :11:19.want the infrastructure projects think the process is too cumbersome.
:11:20. > :11:26.Yes, but they do not want scrutiny. What we are saying is that we want
:11:27. > :11:32.to scrutiny. We want to make sure that people get their objections
:11:33. > :11:36.heard. I am not convinced this is the best way to do it. We need to
:11:37. > :11:39.build on the strengths, not throw the baby out with the bath water,
:11:40. > :11:45.but when you have MPs who already have responsibilities it is not the
:11:46. > :11:48.right way to proceed. In 50 years' time will we look back and think
:11:49. > :12:04.this is how infrastructure projects were dealt with? There will have to
:12:05. > :12:06.be more people with expertise having their say. But ultimately we are
:12:07. > :12:11.representatives of the public. It is important that MPs had their say.
:12:12. > :12:16.What advice would you give to those who will be serving on the HS2
:12:17. > :12:21.committee? I would advise them to get a rotor together. That is what
:12:22. > :12:25.we did. It worked well. Forget about party politics. This is about
:12:26. > :12:39.putting the people first. And make sure you have a big bottle of
:12:40. > :12:42.whiskey. So there we are. We're not at the end of the High Speed debate,
:12:43. > :12:46.not even the beginning of the end, but it is, perhaps, the end of the
:12:47. > :12:49.beginning, to coin a phrase. Now, what else has been going on in
:12:50. > :12:52.Parliament in the last week? Theresa May announced a new code of practice
:12:53. > :13:08.for police using stop`and`search powers. MPs voiced their concerns
:13:09. > :13:10.about who gets and stopped and why. Police officers are required to have
:13:11. > :13:14.a reasonable level of suspicion before they use those powers but the
:13:15. > :13:17.figures suggest in a large number of cases, it is nothing but the colour
:13:18. > :13:21.of the skin of the person being stopped. In a large number of cases,
:13:22. > :13:24.the reasonable grounds were not there and so one can only assume a
:13:25. > :13:28.given that black people are six times more likely to be stopped and
:13:29. > :13:32.searched than a white person, it is likely it is the fact they are a
:13:33. > :13:39.black person that has led to that taking place. It is disgraceful.
:13:40. > :13:41.Delivering for the taxpayer or failing to deliver? The
:13:42. > :13:43.privatisation of the Royal Mail produces skirmishes at Prime
:13:44. > :13:50.Minister's Questions amid claims of favourable treatment for certain
:13:51. > :13:56.investors. Parliament's spending watchdog asked questions about the
:13:57. > :13:59.investor's motives. How do you explain you thought they
:14:00. > :14:05.were believers in the Royal Mail story and it was sold next day? As
:14:06. > :14:08.the share price increased sharply, more sharply than I think they would
:14:09. > :14:17.have anticipated it to increase, some of them held, some of them
:14:18. > :14:21.bought and some of them sold. And those actions were based on their
:14:22. > :14:25.own view in terms of where they saw value on a medium to longer`term
:14:26. > :14:29.basis. Sounds to me as though they didn't
:14:30. > :14:36.support the story but just filled their boots.
:14:37. > :14:38.What could be more agreeable on a summer afternoon than a game of
:14:39. > :14:50.bowls? The future of the gentle sport is under threat, said one MP.
:14:51. > :14:52.The reassuring click, kissing wood, is gradually being replaced by the
:14:53. > :15:00.unsettling clank of mechanical diggers that are ripping up greens
:15:01. > :15:05.in every corner of Britain. Our greens continue to be trapped in
:15:06. > :15:14.a vicious pincer movement. Council`owned greens are falling
:15:15. > :15:18.victim to spending cuts. There is an ability to say this is an asset we
:15:19. > :15:22.want to preserve in its current use and we want to have a bit of time in
:15:23. > :15:27.order to raise money through a local appeal or whatever it is to be able
:15:28. > :15:30.to acquire this asset. And time to reflect on a long
:15:31. > :15:33.Westminster career ` the splendidly bearded Sir Robert Rogers announces
:15:34. > :15:37.he is retiring as Clerk of the House of Commons after 42 years of serving
:15:38. > :15:45.Parliament. The Speaker reads his resignation letter.
:15:46. > :15:47.This House is the precious centre of our parliamentary democracy. With
:15:48. > :16:07.all my heart, I wish it well. Yours sincerely, Robert Rogers. Not a dry
:16:08. > :16:10.eye in the house. Hardly a day goes by without mention
:16:11. > :16:14.of that Scottish independence referendum. What are the Welsh
:16:15. > :16:16.getting up to? No serious independence moves there so far
:16:17. > :16:19.anyway but the Wales Bill going through the Commons gives the first
:16:20. > :16:21.tax raising powers to the Welsh government, one of many
:16:22. > :16:28.recommendations of the Silk Commission into every aspect of
:16:29. > :16:38.Welsh devolution. The man himself faced questions on Tuesday.
:16:39. > :16:40.It is interesting to know how you would respond to people who have
:16:41. > :16:43.expressed their weariness, really, with the time that people spent at
:16:44. > :16:48.the time on process and structures and powers. You referred to it a bit
:16:49. > :16:51.in the introduction. We were asked to do a job which was
:16:52. > :16:56.essentially about process, not outcomes. We hope we have done that
:16:57. > :16:59.job and we hope it will lead to a consensual approach and to a system
:17:00. > :17:08.of governance in Wales, which will lead to the outcomes we all want for
:17:09. > :17:11.the people of Wales. How long do you think, if your
:17:12. > :17:15.recommendations are implemented, how long will the settlement be good
:17:16. > :17:19.for? Is it permanently? A couple of years? Six months or a couple of
:17:20. > :17:25.weeks, like it seemed to me happened last time around? How long before we
:17:26. > :17:30.have you back for Silk Three, pleasure though it is?
:17:31. > :17:35.You will never have me back for Silk Three! We do hope that what we
:17:36. > :17:47.recommend, if it is implemented, will lead to stability for a
:17:48. > :17:50.generation. A generation. 25 years. That has answered the question.
:17:51. > :17:55.Paul Silk talking to the Commons Welsh Affairs Committee on Tuesday.
:17:56. > :18:00.Joining us in The Week In Parliament is Paul Silk. Welcome to the
:18:01. > :18:03.programme. Turnout in referenda on Welsh devolution, I think it was 50%
:18:04. > :18:06.in 1997 and 35% three years ago. It doesn't suggest there is a huge
:18:07. > :18:15.amount of interest in Welsh devolution. Is that fair? Anybody
:18:16. > :18:20.who's interested in devolution would like to see more people taking part.
:18:21. > :18:23.I think some of the questions that have been asked in referendums in
:18:24. > :18:26.the past have been questions that people find difficult to understand,
:18:27. > :18:29.so whether the Assembly should have lawmaking powers is a question some
:18:30. > :18:33.people might think they don't really understand and don't feel qualified
:18:34. > :18:38.to answer. There may be reasons why the turnout has been low.
:18:39. > :18:44.A key part of Silk One, a key part is tax`raising powers. How important
:18:45. > :18:49.is it for the National Assembly of Wales to have some tax`raising
:18:50. > :18:53.powers? What we thought in our report and
:18:54. > :18:56.what we recommended was if there is going to be accountability for the
:18:57. > :18:58.National Assembly, and it is important they should have this
:18:59. > :19:02.possibility for raising their own revenue. We decided the best way
:19:03. > :19:08.would be to combine some block grant from the UK government with some
:19:09. > :19:20.devolution of tax`raising powers. That is what is going through
:19:21. > :19:24.Parliament at the moment. If we look at Silk Two, and I'm just looking at
:19:25. > :19:26.one or two of the things you've recommended to be devolved ` speed
:19:27. > :19:29.limits, sewage, rail franchising ` it seems a bit of a miscellaneous
:19:30. > :19:32.bunch and limited in scope. We were really directed by the
:19:33. > :19:36.evidence for what we received to look at the areas we looked out and
:19:37. > :19:39.one of the things we found was an absence of clarity and lack of
:19:40. > :19:42.coherence about the way the devolution settlement had been set
:19:43. > :19:44.up for Wales and therefore we thought some of these areas which
:19:45. > :19:48.might look pretty minor were anomalies that need to be rectified.
:19:49. > :19:54.It is not really bold compared with the Scottish parliament in
:19:55. > :19:59.Edinburgh. Well... It is very important for us not... Of course,
:20:00. > :20:04.Scotland is another example of devolution within the United
:20:05. > :20:07.Kingdom, as is Northern Ireland. We looked at what was going on in
:20:08. > :20:10.Scotland and Northern Ireland and we used that as an example, a template,
:20:11. > :20:13.for what we would recommend but what we wanted to recommend were things
:20:14. > :20:16.that were appropriate for Wales and there are historical differences
:20:17. > :20:19.between Scotland and Wales. Scotland has had a separate legal system and
:20:20. > :20:29.has never not had a separate legal system. Far more people live within
:20:30. > :20:32.a few miles of the border in the case of England and Wales than
:20:33. > :20:39.England and Scotland, so there are differences we have to recognise in
:20:40. > :20:43.part one and part two reports. Various things going on all around
:20:44. > :20:48.the UK. There is a huge referendum in Scotland and recently more
:20:49. > :20:51.recognition of Cornwall. What's your opinion of where all this is
:20:52. > :20:57.leading? What do you think the UK will look like in 20 years' time?
:20:58. > :21:00.A difficult bit of speculation to make. Obviously, what is going to
:21:01. > :21:04.happen in September in Scotland is going to affect the nature of this
:21:05. > :21:07.country and if Wales and England and Northern Ireland become a country
:21:08. > :21:13.and Scotland is a separate country, then that has quite major
:21:14. > :21:16.implications for Wales. One of the difficulties, I think, for us was
:21:17. > :21:21.one of my colleagues on the commission talked about the
:21:22. > :21:24.difficulty of England. Of course, there are institutions for Scotland
:21:25. > :21:26.and institutions for Wales, there are institutions for Northern
:21:27. > :21:29.Ireland but there are no institutions for England alone and
:21:30. > :21:32.that is a question that I think will need to be addressed and resolved
:21:33. > :21:35.about the constitutional convention, which the First Minister in Wales
:21:36. > :21:39.has proposed, and it is something we will need to have and hopefully our
:21:40. > :21:46.work will play into that if it is set up.
:21:47. > :21:49.And on a lighter note, I gather when you are looking into the devolution
:21:50. > :21:55.of taxing black taxi cabs, you came across an obstacle. It transpires
:21:56. > :21:59.the Law Commission believed that the taxi cab regulation was devolved to
:22:00. > :22:02.Wales but there are others who think that isn't the case so I think that
:22:03. > :22:04.says something about the clarity of the settlement if the Law
:22:05. > :22:07.Commission, with distinguished judges and professors of law as
:22:08. > :22:15.their members, don't know if something is devolved or not. One of
:22:16. > :22:25.those great mysteries. Thanks for joining us, Paul Silk.
:22:26. > :22:28.You are watching The Week In Parliament after a week when High
:22:29. > :22:45.Speed Two started its long, slow parliamentary journey. The forecast
:22:46. > :22:50.for the week ahead has been keeping us on our toes over the last few
:22:51. > :22:57.days. It's a bank holiday long weekend after all. Chilly with frost
:22:58. > :22:58.in some places. On Saturday, dry with bright spells in many areas,