:00:23. > :00:29.Tonight, the Grand Prix season reaches the This Week studio.
:00:29. > :00:39.Cameron slums on the brakes for yet more U-turns, is the coalition on
:00:39. > :00:42.
:00:42. > :00:46.the skids? The Daily Mirror's Kevin Maguire tries to keep up. As one
:00:46. > :00:50.new university plans to drive off in a new direction, with fees of
:00:50. > :00:57.�18,000 a year, writer and education campaigner Toby Young
:00:57. > :01:04.gets behind the wheel. Private, Ivy League style colleges could be the
:01:04. > :01:11.solution to the funding crisis in higher education. Is life getting
:01:11. > :01:17.too racy for young girls? The wife of the Speaker, Sally Bercow,
:01:17. > :01:27.always the chequered flag. cannot just look to the States, to
:01:27. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:44.tackle this problem, parents need Evening all. Welcome to This Week,
:01:45. > :01:49.bringing up the political rear, as ever. Say what you like about this
:01:49. > :01:53.government, they know how to exceed expectations. Just when you think
:01:53. > :01:57.they could not come up with anything crazier than putting Ken
:01:57. > :02:07.Clarke in charge of prison policy, they surpassed themselves. Their
:02:07. > :02:10.
:02:10. > :02:15.latest brainwave, NHS reorganisation. What are my
:02:15. > :02:19.blathering on about? Well, I will tell you, the mind bothering idea
:02:20. > :02:23.put forward by Theresa May as part of her so-called prevent anti-
:02:23. > :02:31.terrorism strategy. Apparently, the NHS is not delivering what it was
:02:31. > :02:37.set up to do. Apparently, doctors and nurses are not just there to
:02:37. > :02:44.heal the sick, no, they're critical partners, her words, in the fight
:02:44. > :02:48.against terror. They can help protect people from radicalisation.
:02:48. > :02:57.It is no longer enough for your doctor to ask, where does it hurt?
:02:57. > :03:02.In future, they will be asking, who do you want to hurt? Speaking of
:03:02. > :03:10.people the state should be keeping an eye on, I'm joined tonight by
:03:10. > :03:14.two men who both deserve to see the inside of the Tower of London. I
:03:14. > :03:19.speak of course of Michael Portillo and Alastair Campbell. Good evening,
:03:19. > :03:22.gentlemen. Michael, your moment of the week... Some soldiers, who have
:03:22. > :03:28.been at war in Afghanistan, have been carrying video cameras on
:03:28. > :03:33.their helmets and making films of the wars. On BBC Three a couple of
:03:33. > :03:38.nights ago, they showed some footage from 2007, and there was an
:03:38. > :03:43.incredibly moving passage in which a platoon is deployed against the
:03:43. > :03:49.Taliban, in a firefight, and one of them gets shot, as it turns out,
:03:49. > :03:57.fatally, and they try to rescue him. The immediacy of the war really
:03:57. > :04:03.came home to me. The confusion of battle. Their enthusiasm for battle,
:04:04. > :04:08.the chaos of trying to deal with a casualty. Their affection for the
:04:08. > :04:14.boy who fell and died. Everything is there. It was on BBC Three,
:04:14. > :04:20.forgive me, why was it will be bought three? -- why was it on BBC
:04:20. > :04:25.Three? It increased my understanding of war tenfold.
:04:25. > :04:29.agree, it was an extraordinary piece of film. Your moment? There
:04:30. > :04:32.have been a lot this week. To pick up one, they think it was the
:04:33. > :04:37.exchange yesterday between David Cameron and Tom Watson on phone
:04:37. > :04:41.hacking. May be inadvertently, David Cameron has taken it into a
:04:41. > :04:46.whole new arena, where the activities of other newspapers are
:04:46. > :04:51.now very much could be part of the story. And since that exchange, I
:04:51. > :05:01.subsequently discovered that I have seen a lot of invoices relating to
:05:01. > :05:03.
:05:03. > :05:06.myself in this regard. Being paid by my old newspaper, the Mirror, to
:05:06. > :05:14.dig up whatever it is. We are talking about quite big sums of
:05:14. > :05:17.money. When you see the volume of money that was going out from the
:05:17. > :05:21.newspapers to this private investigator, who was involved in
:05:22. > :05:25.the murder trial, as you know, but I thought it was interesting, it
:05:25. > :05:35.was a very important moment, and people say that PMQs does not
:05:35. > :05:38.matter, but I thought Tom Watson got Cameron to say things...
:05:38. > :05:44.Cameron probably wants this to go away, I would have thought. But I
:05:44. > :05:49.think he has a slightly opened the floodgates on it. There was another
:05:49. > :05:55.moment which happened tonight, the news of these amazing memos which
:05:55. > :06:01.the Telegraph is publishing tomorrow, from Mr Brown and Ed
:06:01. > :06:06.Balls, showing that within days of the terrorist attack in London, on
:06:06. > :06:10.the Underground, that Gordon Brown and his allies, including Ed Balls
:06:10. > :06:14.and Mr Miliband, had begun a brutal campaign to get rid of Tony Blair
:06:14. > :06:21.as Prime Minister, what you make of that? It is true, I walked into the
:06:21. > :06:26.building tonight, and you have thrown these things at me. I was
:06:26. > :06:33.involved, I came back, having left in 2003, and helped to put Tony and
:06:33. > :06:39.Gordon together. We did win! There was also involved a little bit
:06:39. > :06:44.beyond that in trying to keep them working together. I'm not totally
:06:44. > :06:48.surprised by seeing this, because I think Gordon did feel fairly soon
:06:48. > :06:54.into that third term that it was about time Tony started signalling
:06:54. > :06:59.when he might leave. I think the most interesting thing for me, the
:06:59. > :07:03.one I think I have seen before, is Tony basically same to Gordon, I
:07:03. > :07:08.will help you or I can, but I have just been elected for a third term,
:07:08. > :07:13.and I have got a reform agenda, and I want or support. But Mr Brown's
:07:13. > :07:19.reply to that, he scribbles in the margins, and you used to scold
:07:19. > :07:22.people like me for making too much of this... Not by 2005, I didn't.
:07:22. > :07:29.He described the words of Mr Blair as a shallow, inconsistent and
:07:29. > :07:33.muddled. Which he was not, he was not any of those things, he pretty
:07:33. > :07:37.much knew most of the time what he was up to. Mr Balls, who was
:07:37. > :07:41.involved in most of this, and we have got handwritten memos from him,
:07:42. > :07:46.has previously insisted people like me that he has never been involved
:07:46. > :07:52.in attempts to undermine colleagues, including Mr Blair - is that now
:07:52. > :07:56.sustainable position? If you look at some of them, they look fairly
:07:56. > :07:59.ordinary, it is a political operation. I have always said about
:07:59. > :08:09.Gordon, the ambition to become Prime Minister, seeing nothing
:08:09. > :08:10.
:08:10. > :08:17.wrong with that. We were joking about Michael... I don't remember.
:08:17. > :08:21.You do. Mr Brown orders Mr Balls to take a bluetongue approach to
:08:21. > :08:31.cleanse the Labour Party of Mr Blair's influence. Well, if that is
:08:31. > :08:33.accurate, then it was not a terribly wise thing to say. I'm not
:08:34. > :08:40.pretending the relationship between the two of the was hunky-dory, it
:08:40. > :08:44.wasn't. However, the reason why I went back to help Gordon in 2010
:08:44. > :08:48.was because together, they did achieve issue demand. At times the
:08:48. > :08:53.relationship was really bad, this was clearly one of those times.
:08:53. > :09:00.didn't we get this in your diaries? You got quite a bit, actually.
:09:00. > :09:04.sense that it. A I did, I was straightforward about that. Thanks
:09:04. > :09:09.for the plug, there is another one coming out on July 7th. There is
:09:09. > :09:19.quite a lot of it. But even despite all of that, when it was bad, we
:09:19. > :09:19.
:09:19. > :09:25.still got a helluva lot then. hated and despised Blair, it is
:09:25. > :09:31.clear. At times, he had such a negative view, he was so clear
:09:31. > :09:40.about his own ambition to be Prime Minister that sometimes, I think he
:09:40. > :09:44.underestimated just how talented Tony was, and how strong he was.
:09:44. > :09:51.The haunting question is, particularly in the latter years,
:09:51. > :09:57.how much more could Tony have done if he had not been blocked? Let's
:09:57. > :10:07.leave that hanging in the air, because we need to move on. Most
:10:07. > :10:11.
:10:11. > :10:15.universities are hotbeds of dissent. If there is one thing arts students
:10:15. > :10:20.cannot handle, apart from basic mental arithmetic, it is big
:10:20. > :10:24.business. So, the news this week of plans to open a private university
:10:24. > :10:29.funded by investors rather than the state was greeted with fury from
:10:29. > :10:39.students and arts academics. A handful of protesters went to throw
:10:39. > :10:40.
:10:40. > :10:45.smoke bombs at the cuddly Nafti academic masterminding the project.
:10:45. > :10:55.Writer and campaigner Toby Young thinks private education is worth
:10:55. > :11:05.
:11:05. > :11:13.fighting for. Here is his call to arms. AC Grayling Bundled plans to
:11:13. > :11:19.set up a private university of humanities, but he was told, he had
:11:19. > :11:23.no right to speak by one group. Public education is the last
:11:23. > :11:28.redoubt of the Progressive Left. They will stop at nothing to defend
:11:28. > :11:33.the state's position as a monopoly provider. They were particularly
:11:33. > :11:38.incensed by the professor, because he used to be one of them. But now,
:11:38. > :11:41.they will not rest until they have bullied him into denouncing his
:11:41. > :11:51.radical ideas. Is that the Archbishop of Canterbury? In
:11:51. > :11:56.
:11:56. > :12:00.The professor is proposing to charge students �18,000 a year,
:12:00. > :12:03.enabling his opponents to brand the New college of the humanities
:12:03. > :12:09.socially exclusive. But the high fees will allow the college to
:12:09. > :12:13.subsidise poorer students, in some cases of in them 100% bursaries, a
:12:13. > :12:21.system which works well in America, giving children from low-income
:12:21. > :12:24.families access to higher education. As a founder of the west London
:12:24. > :12:27.free school, I have to put up with daily attacks from the
:12:27. > :12:31.stormtroopers of the hard left. They do not care about helping the
:12:31. > :12:34.poor gain access to good schools or universities. If you're setting
:12:34. > :12:40.yourself up as an independent provider, free of state control,
:12:40. > :12:49.then you are the enemy and you must be stopped. Welcome to the fight,
:12:50. > :12:52.Professor Grayling. That was Toby Young playing
:12:52. > :12:58.soldiers at the national Army museum in central London. He joins
:12:58. > :13:05.us now. Welcome back to the programme. First of all, Alastair,
:13:05. > :13:15.you were a celebrity teacher in Jamie's Dream School, so there --
:13:15. > :13:17.
:13:17. > :13:22.to this must be right up your Not really. Teaching is really,
:13:22. > :13:27.really, really lard. I saw that. was voted the best by the kids, but
:13:28. > :13:32.I thought it is not the job for amateurs. I think that this new
:13:32. > :13:35.university it's got a slightly odd feel to it to me. The guys who have
:13:35. > :13:42.made themselves very well known in their own field and they come along
:13:42. > :13:47.and I think the other thing - and they say they can give this great
:13:47. > :13:49.course and all this money and so on. It takes a long, long time to
:13:49. > :13:55.establish a reputation as an educational establishment. The
:13:56. > :14:00.second thing, it is slightly taking us off the main point, which is the
:14:00. > :14:03.80% cuts in teaching grants. It's probably what is making them think
:14:03. > :14:08.there's this market opportunity opening for them now. I think we
:14:08. > :14:12.are talking about the 80% cuts about a potential disaster for
:14:12. > :14:16.universities that we should and they should be fighting to protect
:14:16. > :14:20.and support. Do you think, Michael, it's part of a movement which some
:14:21. > :14:24.would like to see, to a more morn- style higher education system,
:14:24. > :14:28.where in addition to the state- funded universities, which there
:14:28. > :14:33.are many in America and nearly all in this country, there are private-
:14:33. > :14:37.higher education institutions? Absolutely. I think Alistair is
:14:37. > :14:41.taking it too literally. The new future is that places like Oxford
:14:41. > :14:44.and Cambridge I think have to go private. They have to put
:14:44. > :14:48.themselves beyond the reach of the state. Why is that? It's because
:14:48. > :14:54.the state will suffocate them. It's because the state won't like them
:14:54. > :14:57.to charge enough money and then the state will have all sorts of social
:14:57. > :15:00.engineering agendas, which will compromise their academic
:15:00. > :15:06.excellence and it is really important nationally, because it is
:15:07. > :15:09.important to us that we should have the outstanding educational
:15:09. > :15:13.institutions in country. Unfortunately, not the outstanding
:15:13. > :15:18.ones, because the American ones are better, but we need to get back on
:15:18. > :15:23.to the track. They have potential to be independent and private. They
:15:23. > :15:26.have the potential to be massively endowed, which is the pod elon
:15:26. > :15:31.which the American universities are funded. They try to do now, but
:15:31. > :15:36.they don't appear to be able to do it. If you have that, cue provide
:15:36. > :15:39.lots of bursaries so you overcome that social problem. You should
:15:39. > :15:45.have a needs blinds policy. You should not know the background of
:15:45. > :15:49.the students on deciding whether to let them in. I agree. When you have
:15:49. > :15:53.a $20 billion endowment then you have do that. I understand. Toby,
:15:53. > :15:57.this isn't going to be anything like this, but a Swiss finishing
:15:57. > :16:03.school in the middle of London for rich kids that couldn't get into
:16:03. > :16:10.Oxford or Cambridge? I don't think that's particularly fair. They have
:16:10. > :16:15.an outstanding rota of professors. How many do you think Neil Ferguson
:16:15. > :16:21.will give in between teaching at Harvard and New York and lecturing
:16:21. > :16:26.to Goldman Sachs? Bearing in mind 220,000 university applicants
:16:26. > :16:29.aren't going to get places this year. If you allow private
:16:29. > :16:31.providers to enter the sector you'll increase the number of
:16:31. > :16:36.places and give education to the people who need it. Students should
:16:36. > :16:41.be backing this. Only if you can afford �18,000 a year. It's going
:16:41. > :16:49.to be, as you say, means blind and about 25% of the places will be
:16:49. > :16:52.subsidised so not everyone who goes will have to afford that. 75% are
:16:52. > :16:58.paying �54,000 for an education when most students are up in arms
:16:58. > :17:01.that they might pay �9,000. If you increase the number of places by
:17:01. > :17:06.breaking the monopoly of the state then you'll increase supply and the
:17:06. > :17:14.prices will go down, which is why students should be backing this.
:17:14. > :17:20.you think an eng-lit degree is really worth �54,000, plus living
:17:20. > :17:25.expenses? I could see becoming an engineer might be worth �54,000.
:17:25. > :17:29.There will be a market. If people want to buy, why not? Can there be
:17:29. > :17:33.any harm in it, Alistair? Well, maybe there's not any harm, but
:17:33. > :17:40.going back to the earlier point, I think I just worry that we are
:17:40. > :17:47.slightly looking at this kind of group abdemic celebs who are --
:17:47. > :17:51.academic celebs who are off going around, but I worry - You have to
:17:51. > :17:56.put in three hours in the Dream School. Slightly more than that. I
:17:56. > :18:02.was there and you weren't. The point is I think - I'm amazed that
:18:02. > :18:04.the 80% cut has not had more debate and coverage, because that is what
:18:04. > :18:08.will devastate the future of universities and I think these guys
:18:08. > :18:11.should be thinking about that, because I don't buy the line that
:18:11. > :18:16.if you go down the route that Toby is talking about that you'll get
:18:16. > :18:20.the sort of increased access for poorer kids into the universities.
:18:20. > :18:23.I think we are going in the opposite directions. I don't think
:18:23. > :18:28.people should be terrified about free choice. This is a market thing.
:18:28. > :18:32.That is the point. Some someone wants to spent 54,000. How many
:18:32. > :18:36.people can. If somebody decides that, that is sending a signal and
:18:36. > :18:40.telling you that some people believe this institution is
:18:40. > :18:43.offering something that even Oxford and Cambridge at half the price are
:18:43. > :18:46.not offering. I think they'll struggle. Maybe they will. If they
:18:46. > :18:50.go out and pay that money then there will be a really important
:18:50. > :18:54.message being sent by that. reason they can command the fees is
:18:54. > :18:58.because it's a sellers' market, because there are far fewer
:18:58. > :19:02.university places than there are people who want an education. The
:19:02. > :19:07.way to drive prices down and make it more affordable is to open up
:19:07. > :19:10.the market and allow different providers to enter. One of the
:19:10. > :19:13.consequences of Labour education policies that you spend a lot of
:19:13. > :19:17.time attacking is there were more people going to universities and
:19:17. > :19:21.there will be fewer people going because of scrapping the EMAs and
:19:21. > :19:27.because of the rising fees and because of the huge cuts in
:19:27. > :19:31.teaching grants. That, I think, is far more important whether AC
:19:31. > :19:37.Grayling has half-baked ideas. of the fundamental problems we face
:19:37. > :19:42.in this country is getting bright kids from poor backgrounds into our
:19:42. > :19:51.elite universities. It's proving to be really a struggle. How does this
:19:51. > :19:56.help? Well, if there are bursaries it doesn't make any -- make things
:19:56. > :20:00.any worse. If 25% will apply on a means blind basis then it's not
:20:00. > :20:05.worse, but here we come back to what was achieved in the Labour
:20:05. > :20:11.years and many years before that, why is it now that so few kids from
:20:11. > :20:14.state schools find it possible to get in on their merits to Oxford
:20:14. > :20:21.and Cambridge? I think it's because in looking at the secondary
:20:21. > :20:24.education system, we felt that selection was a bad thing, so -
:20:24. > :20:31.why? Because the secondary modern schools weren't very good, so
:20:31. > :20:39.instead of trying reform them, we destroyed the grammar schools.
:20:39. > :20:43.know you don't agree with that. will work like an ivy Leith college.
:20:43. > :20:46.They charge people who can afford slightly over the odds and then
:20:46. > :20:51.they can enable poorer children who wouldn't otherwise have access to
:20:51. > :21:01.that quality of higher education to go. I'm not worried that there will
:21:01. > :21:04.
:21:04. > :21:07.be a lot of rich kids from China and the ol gashing sons going there.
:21:08. > :21:11.The Government's own social mobility report says that state
:21:11. > :21:15.school kids who get to universities are getting better degrees than
:21:15. > :21:19.those out of the private schools and the problem with Oxbridge is
:21:19. > :21:23.they haven't tackled what they need to do to get more state school kids
:21:23. > :21:27.going into the universities. There are a handful that dominate the
:21:27. > :21:32.state school sector. Toby - it includes a lot of the remaining
:21:32. > :21:36.grammar schools. You have a free school in west London. When does it
:21:36. > :21:40.open? September. How much money have you got from the Government?
:21:40. > :21:48.Exactly the same amount that any ordinary school would have. We get
:21:48. > :21:51.something like between five to six,000 per pupil. Who has bought
:21:51. > :21:56.the site? The department for education. Let me just say, I don't
:21:56. > :22:02.oppose everything that Labour did. I'm wholly in favour of their city
:22:02. > :22:06.academies programme, something I wish your wife was too. You wish
:22:06. > :22:11.Gordon hadn't blocked it as much too. Absolutely. Toby, keep us up-
:22:11. > :22:19.to-date with the free school. There is no mystery on what keeps us up
:22:19. > :22:24.late, super-strong coffee and Blue Nun and saup-weak bladder control.
:22:24. > :22:29.-- soup-weak bladder. Sally Bercow will join us to talk about the
:22:29. > :22:33.sexualisation of society. If you want to witness deluded moral
:22:33. > :22:42.outrage there's nowhere better than the viewers' comments page on the
:22:42. > :22:46.interweb. Or you can express your disgust with fewer swear words by
:22:46. > :22:49.following us on twitter. Painfully steal, that is the verdict of the
:22:49. > :22:53.Archbishop of Canterbury today. We thought he was talking about this
:22:53. > :22:58.programme, but no, it turns out he meant David Cameron's big society.
:22:58. > :23:06.He could have gone on to say cheap, soft and low on protein, but then
:23:06. > :23:09.he really would have been talking about this programme, or modern
:23:09. > :23:15.mass-produced bread, which Britain invented 50 years ago this week we
:23:15. > :23:17.should hang our heads in shame. We asked Kevin Maguire to remember a
:23:17. > :23:27.simpler time, when bread and politics were made the traditional
:23:27. > :23:39.
:23:39. > :23:47.Last on the round would be old ma Cameron's place. It was like taking
:23:47. > :23:53.bread to the top of the world. Mrs Cameron. I've got your organic sour
:23:53. > :23:58.dough and raspberry bloomer. World were a simpler place once, but
:23:58. > :24:02.these days everything's going up in price. Economists say elderly folk
:24:02. > :24:12.have to choose between eating and heating. This week's been about one
:24:12. > :24:19.
:24:19. > :24:25.thing, bread. Well, dough to you and me. They don't make them like
:24:25. > :24:31.they used to, you know. Time were a Lib Dem were a Lib Dem. And now
:24:31. > :24:37.he's a delivery boy for Mr Osborne, the butcher. The case for changing
:24:37. > :24:40.strike law is not a compelling one. However, should the position change
:24:40. > :24:47.and should strikes impose serious damage to the economic and social
:24:47. > :24:57.fabric, the pressure on us to act will ratchet up. That's something
:24:57. > :25:01.
:25:01. > :25:04.which both you and I will Beth both collectively want to avoid. -- will
:25:04. > :25:10.both collectively want to avoid. talked tough before, but he didn't
:25:10. > :25:14.rise to the occasion. This debate about strike laws is nothing but a
:25:14. > :25:20.distraction. There is no justification for tightening up
:25:20. > :25:24.even further already extremely restrictive laws. The Tories are
:25:25. > :25:28.really needing the Lib Dems with them, being pum eld and pounded and
:25:28. > :25:33.David Cameron is getting on with the U-turns. We'll not cut spending
:25:33. > :25:37.on the NHS, but increase it. If you are worried that we'll sell off the
:25:37. > :25:47.NHS or create something American- style private system, we will not
:25:47. > :25:48.
:25:48. > :25:53.do that. Cameron faced the wrath of God, oh, how much the prime baker
:25:53. > :25:55.must wish the Church of England was still the Tory Party at prayer. The
:25:55. > :26:05.Archbishop of Canterbury said the poor need more than a few crumbs
:26:05. > :26:25.
:26:25. > :26:31.Labour says the Government's plans are half-baked and not just on the
:26:31. > :26:37.NHS. Ken Clarke's plans for half sentencing were meant to safe a --
:26:37. > :26:41.save a load of dough. Ed Miliband should have had David Cameron on
:26:41. > :26:46.toast at Prime Minister's questions. He knows he's in a total mess on
:26:46. > :26:55.the policy. Just like on all of the other crime policies and I now want
:26:55. > :26:59.to ask about another area where he's in a complete mess.
:26:59. > :27:05.Miliband failed to singe Cameron. I'm not surprised he wants to move
:27:05. > :27:11.on, because on the first subject he was found guilty. We all know, on
:27:11. > :27:16.the Irish of discounts it was the last government that introduced a
:27:16. > :27:23.33%, a third discount on sentences, so there is, as I say, more than a
:27:23. > :27:27.whiff of jumping on a bandwagon. This Government has more twists and
:27:27. > :27:37.turns than my bread, but Labour is still finding it hard to slice
:27:37. > :27:42.
:27:42. > :27:45.Out Pop Tony Blair, flogging his book to make more bread.
:27:45. > :27:50.largest private donor to him is Alastair Campbell, you're not
:27:50. > :27:54.putting your money where your mouth is yet... Well, I'm certainly very
:27:54. > :28:04.happy to support them in any way I can. I didn't realise Alastair had
:28:04. > :28:04.
:28:04. > :28:14.achieved that great accolade. were a grand ride back again, time
:28:14. > :28:20.
:28:20. > :28:30.for a mother of pearl grey. -- a mug of Earl Grey. This Week, As
:28:30. > :28:32.
:28:32. > :28:39.Good For You are now as it has always been. We thank the baker for
:28:39. > :28:49.letting us film there. We are joined by a Lib Dem commentator. Mr
:28:49. > :28:55.Cameron, his U-turn, or concessions, on health reforms - right or wrong?
:28:55. > :29:03.Wrongish. Right fish in the right direction but he needs to go
:29:03. > :29:13.further and drop the whole bill. Right. U-turn on sentencing policy?
:29:13. > :29:17.
:29:17. > :29:22.Wrongish. Wrong. Wrongish. How far are these U-turns down to Mr Clegg,
:29:22. > :29:27.should he be claiming some credit for them? I think he is claiming
:29:27. > :29:33.credit for the NHS one. Probably not the sentencing one. As always,
:29:33. > :29:37.we learn more detail, as time goes on, and we learn that the
:29:37. > :29:40.coalitions within the coalition are the unexpected. You will find that
:29:40. > :29:46.there will be Conservative Cabinet ministers who disagree with their
:29:46. > :29:50.fellow Conservative ministers, so I think sometimes it is a slightly
:29:50. > :29:55.smoke and mirrors about this kind of, we're going to go into the
:29:56. > :29:58.Cabinet and fight for a particular issue. I spoke to somebody very
:29:58. > :30:03.senior in the Conservatives who said they thought the Andrew
:30:03. > :30:09.Lansley stuff was pretty crazy. So I think a lot of Tories had spotted
:30:09. > :30:14.that. I think Mr Cameron would like to be shot of a lot of it as well
:30:14. > :30:18.now, I don't think he understood what the implications were. But as
:30:18. > :30:21.he backtracked enough to satisfy the Liberal Democrats? I do not
:30:21. > :30:27.entirely know the answer to that, because we're waiting for the
:30:27. > :30:30.detail. But there if -- but if there is a sufficient pull back
:30:30. > :30:35.from a single body which are driving towards competition, then
:30:35. > :30:39.obviously that will alleviate a lot of the problems that were raised in
:30:39. > :30:45.the Liberal Democrat amendments to motions at the spring conference.
:30:45. > :30:50.Mr Cameron seems quite adept at U- turns. We in the media, no matter
:30:50. > :30:53.who is in power, we make a big deal about U-turns, probably too much -
:30:53. > :30:58.from your experience inside government, do they Harmer
:30:59. > :31:03.government? No, I think John Major was damaged through the whole sense
:31:03. > :31:09.of dithering and taking different positions. I think ultimately what
:31:09. > :31:11.matters is the policy position you get to. Where I think David Cameron
:31:12. > :31:17.is in trouble on this one, there was a discussion on Newsnight the
:31:17. > :31:23.other night, with Norman Lamb, and the Tory MP who's in the news for
:31:23. > :31:27.other things tonight, a bit of a right winger, I think, and they
:31:27. > :31:32.were both same, following David Cameron's speech, they're both
:31:32. > :31:39.really happy. Now that's totally impossible, this Liberal Democrat
:31:40. > :31:43.and the right-wing Tory. Opposite working good guys from within the
:31:43. > :31:48.health sector, saying they were totally confused by what the policy
:31:48. > :31:52.was. I think Cameron, if he is up for the whole you turn business, he
:31:52. > :31:58.could do worse than just drop the whole bill. A lot of what he says
:31:58. > :32:01.he wants to do, he could do by just using existing reforms. Alan
:32:01. > :32:06.Milburn has said you do not really need a Bill to do what he wants to
:32:06. > :32:10.do. Is there a danger that looking beyond this, Mr Cameron gives the
:32:10. > :32:16.impression that he's just not prepared to stand and fight on some
:32:16. > :32:18.things? Absolutely, there is such a danger. He desperately needs
:32:18. > :32:22.competition in the national Health Service, partly because that's what
:32:22. > :32:29.he believes in, partly because the national Health Service has to make
:32:29. > :32:33.enormous savings in order to live within its budget. The budget is
:32:33. > :32:37.rising in real terms, but that is nothing compared to the extra
:32:37. > :32:43.incidence of diseases which we can treat, and the longevity of the
:32:43. > :32:46.population and so on. So, we need extra competition. I think it was
:32:46. > :32:50.part of the radicalism of the coalition, which I thought was
:32:50. > :32:55.extremely attractive, that in areas like criminal justice, it was
:32:55. > :32:59.prepared to look at new solutions, different ways of trying to reduce
:32:59. > :33:04.the prison population, not just building new prisons, and part of
:33:04. > :33:08.that is, in certain cases, if somebody says you the trouble of
:33:08. > :33:12.taking them through the criminal justice system, they should be
:33:12. > :33:17.offered a discount on their sentence, it is just common sense.
:33:17. > :33:21.I want to move on to Ed Miliband. There is a perception growing at
:33:21. > :33:26.Prime Minister's Questions that there is a regular open goal
:33:26. > :33:30.staring him in the face, and the ball gets kicked over the bar.
:33:30. > :33:35.think he is just going through one of those phases, where there is a
:33:35. > :33:38.media mood of negativity around him. I did not see PMQs yesterday, but I
:33:39. > :33:44.think Ed Miliband is one of the few people I have noticed who can get
:33:44. > :33:47.under the skin of David Cameron, and who I think has had some decent
:33:47. > :33:52.kits at Prime Minister's Questions. They think he's right not to be
:33:52. > :33:59.going too fast on the policy review process. He is still in the process
:33:59. > :34:08.of getting known by the public. The problem we have got now, I used to
:34:08. > :34:12.feel terribly sorry for Olly, when she was a press officer for the Lib
:34:12. > :34:19.Dems, but we have to accept now, we are the third most interesting
:34:19. > :34:23.party. Nick Clegg's tactics, is it really just to stay behind the
:34:23. > :34:28.scenes at the moment I have been writing about this for some time,
:34:28. > :34:32.and I think it is borne out by what you have written, and a lot of the
:34:32. > :34:36.stuff I have read from Labour, when they were in government, which is
:34:36. > :34:45.this obsession with making speeches and announcements and trying to
:34:45. > :34:49.turn the media image of somebody. It is not achievable. Therefore, a
:34:49. > :34:53.long-term media strategy has to be backed up by kneeling down the
:34:53. > :34:57.details of the policy, and the policy having some kind of
:34:57. > :35:02.coherence. I think Nick Clegg will damage himself even more by trying
:35:02. > :35:05.to give this sense that the policy debate is now about he can
:35:06. > :35:10.influence every policy. He is now the Deputy Prime Minister of the
:35:10. > :35:14.government, his only hope I think in rebuilding any sense of
:35:14. > :35:19.credibility is to be the guy who just takes the hits, says, I'm
:35:19. > :35:23.doing what is white for the country, and I will tough it out. To a
:35:23. > :35:29.certain extent, he has been doing that. Does it matter these days
:35:29. > :35:32.what the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks about politics? The column
:35:32. > :35:38.he wrote in the New Statesman could have been written by a political
:35:38. > :35:42.commentator. Does it matter? happens every time you have Tories
:35:42. > :35:46.in government now. This thing about the Church of England being the
:35:47. > :35:52.Tory Party at prayer is so far out of date. I'm amazed by the
:35:52. > :35:55.political naivety. I draw exactly the opposite lesson from the
:35:55. > :35:59.Archbishop of Canterbury. In a modern democracy, you will never
:35:59. > :36:03.get people telling you what to do in government, what needs to be
:36:03. > :36:08.done. The miracle is that in democracies, you still get people
:36:08. > :36:12.who, when they get into power, to what is the right thing to do. They
:36:12. > :36:16.will not tell you in advance. The Archbishop Canterbury saying this
:36:16. > :36:20.is terrible because they did not tell us in advance, no, that's not
:36:20. > :36:27.terrible. The wonderful thing is that they're actually doing the
:36:27. > :36:32.right policy now. We were talking about this story earlier, have the
:36:32. > :36:36.police spoken to you? I have been speaking to the police about the
:36:36. > :36:39.Glenn Mulcaire stuff, but I have not decided what to do about that.
:36:40. > :36:43.But I think this Jonathan Rhys stuff is going to go into a
:36:43. > :36:49.different area. We're not just talking about phone hacking, we're
:36:49. > :36:53.talking about bank details, building societies, the further
:36:53. > :36:59.they get into the details of a D George's mortgage, if that is what
:36:59. > :37:05.it was, this is beginning to unravel now. -- Eddie George. We
:37:05. > :37:08.have had the first police investigation, which was a joke.
:37:08. > :37:15.Then we have had the, it is just a Rogue reporter, but that has gone
:37:15. > :37:24.as well. But this shows newspapers systematically hiring people to
:37:24. > :37:28.do... We need to leave it there. There's nothing we like more than a
:37:28. > :37:33.good old fashioned moral panic. Whether it's too much violence or
:37:33. > :37:37.too much sex. In the case of Michael Portillo, too much wearing
:37:37. > :37:41.of his violently sexy green satin shirt. We believe the public should
:37:41. > :37:47.be protected from all such degenerate influences, even at this
:37:47. > :37:52.time of night. But are the latest tabloid headlines about
:37:52. > :38:02.inappropriate influences just scare stories? We decided to put the
:38:02. > :38:03.
:38:03. > :38:06.sexualisation of society under the House of society become too
:38:06. > :38:12.sexualised, especially where children are concerned? David
:38:12. > :38:19.Cameron thinks so. The Government has decided it is time for action.
:38:19. > :38:25.Parents told me they did not want further regulation. What they
:38:25. > :38:30.wanted was the barriers which stopped them being good parents to
:38:30. > :38:37.be taken away. But can children be prevented from growing up too
:38:37. > :38:46.quickly? It has not stopped the opening of a new Playboy Club in
:38:46. > :38:50.London. That's despite the protests. Meanwhile, women have been walking
:38:50. > :38:57.the streets protesting about their right not to be judged by the
:38:57. > :39:05.clothes they wear. Is society really going to hell in a handcart,
:39:05. > :39:09.or are we just jumping on a typical tabloid bandwagon? That picture
:39:09. > :39:17.speaks volumes for our relationship, I'm the one doing all the punning.
:39:17. > :39:21.Anyway, we joined now by Sally Bercow. His David Cameron right to
:39:21. > :39:25.be worried about this? I think he is. It is an issue for
:39:25. > :39:28.all parents, children are becoming more sexualised, but the question
:39:28. > :39:32.is really whether the Government should be doing something about it,
:39:32. > :39:36.or whether really, parents should be stepping in. I think parents
:39:36. > :39:42.have to take some responsibility. A padded bikini top does not by
:39:42. > :39:47.itself, a parent buys it. When you see kids wearing T-shirts saying
:39:47. > :39:52.things like, future WAG, it makes you wonder whether parents allow
:39:53. > :39:57.that. Absolutely, it can be pester power. I know what is like, you
:39:57. > :40:04.come in from a long day, the kids say, I want this, I want that, and
:40:04. > :40:07.you agree, but you have to draw a line in the sand. Do you think it
:40:07. > :40:17.comes from children who want to copy their parents, when they're
:40:17. > :40:17.
:40:17. > :40:24.young? There's a beauty salon which has opened at the weekend which is
:40:24. > :40:34.doing exactly that for 16-month-old babies. Painting toenails, doing
:40:34. > :40:38.
:40:38. > :40:42.sprayed towns and so on. You almost think that should be illegal.
:40:42. > :40:48.Absolutely, it has been opened at the weekend. But I think the key
:40:48. > :40:53.thing is that parents need to be firmer with their children.
:40:53. > :40:58.Youngsters today have access, when I was a kid, it was TV, but today,
:40:58. > :41:05.it is laptops, I phones, i-Pads, there are pin their rooms all the
:41:05. > :41:15.time. It is an incredible array of influence. -- they are up in their
:41:15. > :41:16.
:41:16. > :41:19.rooms. A lot of it is a good thing, enriching the life experience of a
:41:19. > :41:26.child. But parents do have to take more of an interest in their
:41:26. > :41:30.children. It is not just up to the government to babysit them.
:41:30. > :41:34.government do much about this? not have a problem with Cameron
:41:34. > :41:38.saying, there is a problem. What I cannot workout is what the
:41:38. > :41:43.government actually does about it. I spoke to my daughter tonight, to
:41:43. > :41:48.see what she thought, she's 17 now. She says, there is no doubt there
:41:48. > :41:55.is more of this stuff, but she thinks a lot of kids have worked
:41:55. > :41:59.out how to sail through it. My take is that you cannot do this without
:41:59. > :42:04.changing society. Most of us are attracted by advertisements which
:42:04. > :42:09.promote sexuality, scantily clad people, good-looking people, and
:42:10. > :42:19.unless we are prepared to change society, it is just not going to
:42:20. > :42:24.
:42:24. > :42:29.happen. Should we be careful that we are not just part of the old
:42:29. > :42:32.thing where every generation thinks the same thing? I do not think we
:42:32. > :42:41.should wrap children up in cotton wool at all. That's why sexual
:42:41. > :42:49.education is important in school. And you have got two young kids.
:42:49. > :42:54.Three. Are you conscious that this is a problem for them? Absolutely.
:42:54. > :43:00.Thanks for being with us. That's your lot for tonight. Michael and I
:43:00. > :43:04.are off to cry ourselves to sleep. Why? I hear you ask. Like everyone
:43:04. > :43:10.else we meet, we failed miserably to get any tickets for the Olympics.
:43:10. > :43:14.So, no synchronised swimming for me. No Greco-Roman wrestling for
:43:14. > :43:20.Michael. You know how much Michael loves his Greco-Roman wrestling. He
:43:20. > :43:23.does. Shambles, Seb Coe, you should hang your head in shame. But we
:43:23. > :43:27.were heartened to see the Speaker of the House of Commons back in the
:43:27. > :43:33.news, he gallantly came to the defence of his wife this week,