:00:18. > :00:23.Tonight, This Week takes an all expense spared trip to sun-drenched
:00:23. > :00:29.Greece. Should we prepare to bail out the broken Greek economy? Will
:00:29. > :00:35.Hutton thinks it's money well spent. The bubbles in the Greek economy
:00:35. > :00:41.have gone flat. We in Britain do all we can to bring back the fizz,
:00:41. > :00:45.even helping to pay the bar bill. As President Obama orders the
:00:45. > :00:54.military to start to pack its bags and head home from Afghanistan, the
:00:54. > :00:58.BBC's number one, John Pienaar, is Centre Court at Wimbledon.
:00:59. > :01:04.OK, Cameron is on top. Britain's number one. Could he ever have
:01:04. > :01:09.thought it could be this tough? With a potential washout at
:01:09. > :01:14.Glastonbury, we look for some musical agitaters. Stewart Lee
:01:14. > :01:23.thinks it all got too corporate. Should pop and politics go hand in
:01:23. > :01:32.hand? Are they as toxic a mix as Glastonbury mud?
:01:32. > :01:37.I know, you wish you weren't here! Evening all. Welcome to my big, fat
:01:37. > :01:44.This Week. We have been grum pier than a Greek bus driver who can no
:01:44. > :01:47.longer retire on full pension at 50. Why is that, I hear you cry? He was
:01:47. > :01:55.not invited to the royal wedding or Olympics. Fear not, things are
:01:55. > :02:00.looking up. The first invite to pop on to our doormat was to Last
:02:00. > :02:10.Nights transgender party, at Downing Street - naturally. Call me
:02:10. > :02:18.gay friendly Dave was the perfect host. He joked that "Siena Millar
:02:18. > :02:23.is here tonight. They have had two of the most prominent Queens in 24
:02:23. > :02:29.hours! Our next invite came from the gift which keeps on giving -
:02:29. > :02:35.little Leo Blair's end of term party, all at the cost of �10 a
:02:35. > :02:42.head. What's the coach fair? Don't they know you can get two bottles
:02:42. > :02:46.of Blue Nun, and one night's subscription to Babe Station for
:02:46. > :02:50.that? The final stiffy to arise our
:02:50. > :02:55.interest, to the 40th birthday party of the Chancellor, little Boy
:02:55. > :03:00.George. He themed his coming of age party. He made the inspired choice
:03:00. > :03:10.of midsummer. Probably because it's in the middle of June. We party the
:03:10. > :03:10.
:03:10. > :03:15.night away with a motly bunchch of -- bunch of white Middle Englanders.
:03:15. > :03:25.I am joined on the sofa by two of Westminster's biggest party animals.
:03:25. > :03:27.
:03:27. > :03:33.Call them the Anna Nicole Smith of last-night chat. They are wearing
:03:33. > :03:40.their prisoner chic. Other than your two shirts what has been your
:03:40. > :03:47.moment of the week? Mark Pritchard, not normally my cup of tea. He
:03:47. > :03:50.introduced a motion, wanting to ban animals from circuses. He revealed
:03:50. > :03:55.that this item seemed so important to the Prime Minister, that firstly
:03:55. > :03:59.Mark Pritchard had been offered some kind of job that he withdraw.
:03:59. > :04:02.That secondly he was threatened by Number Ten if he did not withdraw
:04:02. > :04:07.his motion and was told the Prime Minister would view the matter very
:04:07. > :04:12.dimly indeed. It makes you wonder what Number Ten is up to, or what
:04:12. > :04:16.the Prime Minister is up to, bothering in a question as to
:04:16. > :04:21.whether a backbench MP puts forward a motion, which has no effect in
:04:21. > :04:25.law, about whether to ban circus animals or not. We are not at war,
:04:25. > :04:31.there's not a sovereign debt crisis. Why not? I loved when he said "I
:04:31. > :04:35.may be just a boy from a council estate, but I won't be intimidated
:04:35. > :04:39.or threatened by the Prime Minister." He said, a council
:04:39. > :04:43.estate and had some back bone and would look for some spine elsewhere.
:04:43. > :04:51.I thought this was a telling remark. We had him on The Daily Politics.
:04:51. > :04:55.He said it was time the Tory had more people like him and less old
:04:55. > :04:59.Etonians. It was Wednesday, Prime Minister's Questions, when I saw
:04:59. > :05:06.the start of the Prime Minister's U-turn when Ed Miliband asked him,
:05:06. > :05:14.why are you taking the DNA of people arrested for rape off of the
:05:14. > :05:18.DNA database, you would see him saying that, "we're not doing that
:05:18. > :05:24.surely?" I've seen this as a car crash waiting to happen for a long
:05:24. > :05:28.time. When we get to report stage, there's no date for it yet, I think
:05:28. > :05:33.people will start realising this is, not only are they cutting police
:05:33. > :05:40.numbers, not only are they forcing these elected commissioners on a
:05:40. > :05:50.reluctant police force, they are hampering their ain't to catch
:05:50. > :05:53.
:05:53. > :06:01.people guilty of rape and murder. Greece... Greece! Sandy beaches,
:06:01. > :06:07.turquoise sea. I can see myself there now with oust oust in one --
:06:07. > :06:11.with ouzo in one hand and olives in the other. They have the largest
:06:12. > :06:16.cuts in modern history. Call me Dave isn't here, he has been in
:06:16. > :06:22.Brussels. Ducking and diving. We caught up with Will Hutton, just
:06:22. > :06:32.off the Eurostar, to find out why he thinks it would be bonkers not
:06:32. > :06:37.
:06:37. > :06:40.The remarkable St Pancras international station, just another
:06:40. > :06:45.symbol of how close our relationships are with Europe.
:06:45. > :06:51.Thousands of passengers go here every day to the continent. If you
:06:51. > :06:58.need time -- if you think times are tough in Britain, in Greece
:06:58. > :07:01.financial turmoil is raging. The Greeks are up in arms. In effect,
:07:01. > :07:05.the country is broke. Without hundreds of billions from the IMF
:07:06. > :07:10.and the European Union, the Government can't pay its bills. The
:07:10. > :07:16.price is high. One in five Greek public sector workers are to lose
:07:16. > :07:26.their jobs. Swinging tax increases and the biggest, fastest
:07:26. > :07:29.
:07:29. > :07:35.privatisation programme ever. Euro- skepics from Boris Johnson, to Jack
:07:35. > :07:41.Straw are united. What's going on in Europe is for them and their ill
:07:41. > :07:46.conceived euro, we'll stay well out of. David Cameron talks about
:07:46. > :07:55.dealing with a crisis that could overwhelm all of us, not a penny or
:07:55. > :07:59.a creative lead is in offer from The bubble may have bust in the
:07:59. > :08:04.Greek economy, but the idea what's going on there doesn't affect us is
:08:04. > :08:11.just bonkers. We can't put to one side what's happening in Greece.
:08:11. > :08:15.Sooner or later it will affect us. Our banks have lent the best part
:08:15. > :08:21.of a trillion euro to European banks and companies. If Greece is
:08:21. > :08:25.for toss re-pay debts on a scale larger than what Germany was asked
:08:25. > :08:29.to do after repaying after World War I, I have no doubt Greece will
:08:30. > :08:34.default on its debts. Ireland, Portugal and Spain could follow
:08:34. > :08:41.suit. The euro would collapse. We'd be in the middle of a financial
:08:42. > :08:48.disaster. So what to do? Britain needs to
:08:48. > :08:54.stand up for Europe and for Greece. David Cameron, instead of appeasing
:08:54. > :08:58.his Euro-sceptic backbenchers needs to publicly assure the Europeans in
:08:58. > :09:07.the eurozone that Britain will do everything in its power to help.
:09:07. > :09:12.That means putting our hand in our pockets.
:09:12. > :09:17.Will Hutton must be the cheapest champagne in Britain if.... That's
:09:17. > :09:21.where I am going next time. He was in the railway station in St
:09:21. > :09:27.Pancras. Here he is. Welcome back. Let me start with the stripy
:09:27. > :09:31.brothers here. Is Will right? Should the European Union,
:09:31. > :09:35.including the United Kingdom, do everything to keep Greece afloat
:09:35. > :09:38.and in the euro? Will is absolutely right that the Prime Minister
:09:38. > :09:43.should not say he's not going to have anything to do with this. It
:09:43. > :09:47.made me very unhappy when he said that. Will is right, that this
:09:47. > :09:52.crisis is all-embracing of incredible importance and will
:09:52. > :09:56.sweep us all away unless we handle it correctly. If problem is, I
:09:56. > :09:59.don't think the European Union is about rescuing Greece. It is about
:09:59. > :10:03.rescuing the euro. The United Kingdom doesn't have much of an
:10:04. > :10:07.interest in rescuing the euro in the sense of preserving the euro
:10:07. > :10:13.with all the member countries who are presently in it as members in
:10:13. > :10:17.the future. It may be much more sensible to let Greece go. They are
:10:17. > :10:21.not willing to contemplate that. Should we be willing to give money
:10:21. > :10:27.to Greece? We will have to participate in one of the
:10:27. > :10:31.mechanisms. That is the IMF? That happens. Should we, as Will's
:10:31. > :10:37.implication, pony up alon with the -- along with the rest of the
:10:37. > :10:42.eurozone to help? I think we should say we wish to participate in the
:10:42. > :10:47.leadership of the problem. It will probably cost us money. Yes. Where
:10:47. > :10:51.are you? We should either donate a penny or some bright ideas. I agree
:10:51. > :10:59.with the bright ideas. Ed Balls made the point about us being in
:10:59. > :11:03.the position, because our banks are not as exposed as German and French
:11:03. > :11:07.banks, we could be the broker here. We're not part of the euro. Where
:11:07. > :11:13.is Gordon Brown when you need him? He would be in with ideas about how
:11:13. > :11:16.to solve this. Another package will not solve this. Another package,
:11:16. > :11:22.another austerity package will not solve this. There needs to be
:11:22. > :11:31.another bail out? We are spectators at this kind of unbelievable event.
:11:31. > :11:40.Greece is being asked by the IMF and the European Union between
:11:40. > :11:43.2012-2015, to pay nearly as much in that period as the Germans were in
:11:43. > :11:48.reparation payments after World War I. At the same time, their economy
:11:48. > :11:52.will be three more years of decline. They will not do it. It is mission
:11:52. > :11:58.impossible. We are spectators, watching a mission impossible
:11:58. > :12:02.unfolding, which we are going to be hurt by as the consequences of this
:12:03. > :12:06.escape being made... I get that. You say we should throw money in
:12:06. > :12:12.there. We should be part of the next bail out. Are you saying
:12:12. > :12:20.however much it will cost, it will be money well spent? I am saying
:12:20. > :12:26.that we should attempt to shape a bail out, it shares the pain out
:12:26. > :12:29.more eke Qatarably. The creditors to Ireland, to Portugal,
:12:29. > :12:33.simultaneously have to accept they will not get their money back in
:12:33. > :12:37.full. They will not get it back in three, four, five years thaism will
:12:37. > :12:44.get it back over 25 years -- they will get it back over 25 years.
:12:44. > :12:47.That is what they will not agree to and the European Central Bank?
:12:47. > :12:53.There's been an argument between the central bank and the French, in
:12:53. > :12:58.which the Germans want something like this and the central bank and
:12:58. > :13:03.the French oppose it. Chancellor Merkel has appealed to the BRITs to
:13:03. > :13:06.come -- Brits to come to the party, put some money on the table and
:13:06. > :13:11.maybe Britain and Germany could shape a better deal for Greece than
:13:11. > :13:15.the one that is unfolding before our eyes. The grave danger is we
:13:15. > :13:20.are going to watch Greece defaulting in a kind of Lehman
:13:20. > :13:28.Brothers event. We've got, you can argue about the numbers, some say
:13:28. > :13:31.700 billion euro, think it is nearer one trillion. They have
:13:31. > :13:38.enormous loans out to eurozone Governments and Governments.
:13:38. > :13:45.companies. Is Will right, that if it goes
:13:45. > :13:54.pear-shaped in Greece, there's an automatic contagion to Portugal -
:13:54. > :13:58.Yes. It is by far the biggest threat to the British economy and
:13:59. > :14:02.the world economy that is present at the moment. He isn't saying that
:14:02. > :14:09.there is a bail out, he's saying that the people and the private
:14:09. > :14:13.sector have to now participate. precisely. The imaging, as it were,
:14:13. > :14:17.Euro-sceptic position is that unless there's holes are plucked
:14:17. > :14:20.now, all that is going to happen is that five years down the line the
:14:20. > :14:24.burden passed to tax payers is going to be even greater. Unless we
:14:24. > :14:29.get the private sector to participate in the pain, it's all
:14:29. > :14:32.going to be mounting upon the taxpayer. Are we right to think
:14:32. > :14:36.this is another Lehman Brothers? In many ways, we didn't see it coming.
:14:36. > :14:41.This, by virtue of the fact that we are all talking about this, we see
:14:41. > :14:45.it coming? We do, but it doesn't make it any less profound in terms
:14:45. > :14:48.of its effects. In terms of the tour in Parliament about how we can
:14:49. > :14:54.just wash our hands of it, we are not in the euro, it is their
:14:54. > :14:57.problem, it is our problem as well. There are two fans of money, the
:14:57. > :15:01.mechanism and the facility. We are part of one and not part of the
:15:01. > :15:05.other. We didn't put anything into the original bail out. I can
:15:05. > :15:08.understand elected politician saying, look, we are not going to
:15:08. > :15:13.ban taxpayers' money into it. It doesn't mean to say we are not in
:15:13. > :15:16.the game of showing some leadership. When I originally heard what you're
:15:16. > :15:20.going to say, I thought you were going to say that there has to be a
:15:20. > :15:23.lot more money given to Greece, an even bigger bail out and less
:15:23. > :15:33.emphasis on austerity. What you are really talking about is a default,
:15:33. > :15:39.by any other name? And talking about an orderly, organised bail-in.
:15:39. > :15:49.Organised by the IMF, everybody is guide to the part of it, the bond
:15:49. > :15:53.holders take their coat. It's not a default if the country which is...
:15:53. > :15:57.If the country that withholds the obligation says, fine, I'm going to
:15:57. > :16:03.carry on paying vet. The trouble is, what may happen is that they might
:16:03. > :16:08.default and not pay anything to anybody. If we are going to get the
:16:08. > :16:12.right answer we have to be not frightened by particular words.
:16:12. > :16:16.People keep saying, we can't have a default, it's a bad thing, but it
:16:17. > :16:23.might be worse... Most analysts in the city grave. Other people are
:16:23. > :16:26.saying that Greece can't leave the euro. That bad, but it might not be
:16:26. > :16:33.as bad as the alternative. Greece, it's going to be really
:16:33. > :16:38.hard. Leaving the euro could itself precipitate the collapse of the
:16:38. > :16:42.Greek banking system. It's a Shangri-La world going on. The ECB
:16:42. > :16:46.and the French, and, so far, the German's official line, they don't
:16:46. > :16:51.want to go through the route that we are suggesting, default. They
:16:51. > :16:54.say even if you spread out the credit, it's a credit event and
:16:54. > :16:59.counts as a default. The people of Rhys will determine this. Not a
:16:59. > :17:05.single civil servant has lost their job yet. Not a single public asset
:17:05. > :17:10.has been privatised. I put it to you, it will not happen. I was
:17:10. > :17:15.hearing the other day they have an incredible situation where a
:17:16. > :17:21.pharmacy get guarantees 35% profits. Paying your taxes is a kind of
:17:21. > :17:24.voluntary procedure over in Greece. There is not an easy option. There
:17:25. > :17:32.should be a substantive conversation between the Europeans,
:17:32. > :17:35.the Americans, the whole of the G7, even the big countries. The IMF
:17:35. > :17:38.warned last week that there could be a second financial crisis. It
:17:38. > :17:42.will start here. The Prime Minister of Britain should not be talking
:17:42. > :17:46.about red tape in Brussels this weekend. It's madness. Could the
:17:46. > :17:53.Prime Minister series to carry his party at the put British taxpayer
:17:53. > :17:56.money behind a quick bail out? in isolation. If the Prime Minister
:17:56. > :18:00.seems a position of leadership, I think almost anything is possible.
:18:00. > :18:06.We will have to leave it there, fascinating subject. What do you
:18:06. > :18:11.think will have to happen? I think what will happen is that we will
:18:11. > :18:16.buy two or three months of time. Ultimately, the Greek positional
:18:16. > :18:20.breakdown, the opposition are behind the package, Greece will
:18:20. > :18:24.actually default within the eurozone. I think the Irish and
:18:24. > :18:28.Portuguese will follow suit, there will be substantive write-offs.
:18:28. > :18:33.They knew I into territory that none of us can predict. I agree, it
:18:33. > :18:37.will be fascinating. Now, it is late, but we are ready to pile
:18:37. > :18:41.through to 6am. That is when the last dregs of Olympic tickets go on
:18:41. > :18:45.sale. It is Michael's last chance to get a front row seat at the
:18:45. > :18:48.Greco-Roman wrestling. For those of you with less primeval tastes, we
:18:49. > :18:53.will soon be joined by one of Britain's Ms sophisticated stand-up
:18:53. > :18:57.comedians, Stewart Lee. He's wondering why the music scene has
:18:57. > :19:01.lost its sense of political mischief. For those of you who
:19:01. > :19:05.share Mr Portillo's love of the bear-pit, there is always the
:19:05. > :19:08.dealers comments page. Or you can join the baying mob, as always, on
:19:09. > :19:12.Twitter. It's an edged tonight that Ed
:19:12. > :19:18.Miliband wants to change the way that beta selects its Shadow
:19:18. > :19:25.Cabinet to a system of one man, one vote. To be precise, the one man is
:19:25. > :19:29.his vote. At the moment, Labour MPs choose who is in the Crazy Gang. He
:19:29. > :19:32.thinks it should be up to him alone. I bet the current Shadow Cabinet
:19:32. > :19:36.and over the moon with that overwhelming show of confidence. It
:19:36. > :19:41.looks like the lobbying of Diane Abbott has finally paid off.
:19:41. > :19:51.Fortunately, there are still places left where competition is cherished.
:19:51. > :19:56.
:19:56. > :19:59.Like Wimbledon, where we sent to Tracey. How are you? I'm ready.
:19:59. > :20:03.You've got to get ready, cut the unforced errors down. Lots of
:20:03. > :20:08.movement with your feet, you got to be aggressive, finish the point of
:20:08. > :20:13.at the net and get tough. A big match... Big-match! Keep the feet
:20:13. > :20:18.moving. Stand on the back. Remember, first we need to take this press
:20:18. > :20:26.off. I got to take this off? Yes, I hear that David Cameron is a good
:20:26. > :20:36.player, you've got to play well # If somebody is going to make it,
:20:36. > :20:42.
:20:42. > :20:46.Just like Cameron. Smooth, graceful, born to be at the top, no wonder
:20:46. > :20:49.half the country can't stand him. But it was so much easier on the
:20:49. > :20:54.way up. Criticising the Labour Rousell on the other side of the
:20:54. > :20:57.net. Now every game is harder than the last one, like dropping the
:20:58. > :21:02.idea of half of your sentence if you are a criminal and plead guilty
:21:02. > :21:06.early on. Deon Strong is about being compared to admit you didn't
:21:06. > :21:10.get everything right the first time. -- being strong. That is exactly
:21:10. > :21:14.what we are doing with this. I think that's the right process to
:21:15. > :21:20.follow. That's the style. Even if you miss a point, make it look like
:21:20. > :21:27.it's all part of a plan. I've done many baulks in my time. They should
:21:27. > :21:33.be done with purpose and panache when you have to do them. -- many
:21:33. > :21:38.U-turn in my time. I actually don't think this is a U-turn tour. Look
:21:38. > :21:48.at Ken Clarke, catgut strings, wooden racket, plays his own game,
:21:48. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:03.never learned any different. You've One thing I have learned, it's a
:22:03. > :22:07.team game. OK, I like being in the spotlight, admittedly. But why
:22:07. > :22:10.can't my team just do their job and make me look good? Cameron must
:22:10. > :22:15.feel that way about the generals complaining about the men and
:22:15. > :22:19.resources they have to do the job in Libya. Now Obama says he wants
:22:19. > :22:23.30,000 out by next year. The generals are going to be saying,
:22:23. > :22:26.Prime Minister, do things at your own pace. There are moments when I
:22:26. > :22:32.wake up and read the newspapers and think, tell you what, you do the
:22:32. > :22:36.fighting, I'll do the talking. that a stumble? A mistake? Just a
:22:36. > :22:44.bit too cocky. Miliband is trying to make him pay. Let me say this to
:22:44. > :22:49.him and Olsson Senate seat -- in all sincerity. When our military
:22:49. > :22:52.chiefs raised concerns and raised legitimate concerns about the
:22:52. > :22:56.conduct of about operations, surely it's not the right thing to say to
:22:56. > :23:01.say you did the fighting, I'll do the talking? In retrospect, Mr
:23:01. > :23:05.Speaker, wasn't that very crass and high-handed? Second service.
:23:05. > :23:09.only point I have tried to make in recent days is that I think when
:23:09. > :23:13.you at war, and we are in both Afghanistan and Libya, I think it's
:23:13. > :23:18.very important, whether you are a political or military leader, to
:23:18. > :23:21.think very carefully about what you are about to save. Still, it looks
:23:21. > :23:24.as if Ed Miliband has learned that you trick shots. Maybe there is
:23:25. > :23:28.time for him to turn this thing around. But all of these Labour
:23:28. > :23:32.players have the same problem. When it comes to strike action, they got
:23:32. > :23:36.to choose their words carefully, especially with all of these
:23:36. > :23:41.strikes coming up over pension reform. The trade unions must not
:23:41. > :23:47.walk into the trap of giving George Osborne the confrontation he wants
:23:47. > :23:57.to divert attention from a failure call it -- a quality -- failing
:23:57. > :24:02.
:24:02. > :24:12.Yes, there he is. John Pienaar is coming out on to Centre Court. Just
:24:12. > :24:23.
:24:23. > :24:27.John Pienaar, what a rally. Michael, Mr Obama's speech, he clearly can't
:24:27. > :24:31.wait to get out of Afghanistan quickly enough. What do you make of
:24:31. > :24:34.it? I think the Taliban will understand that perfectly clearly.
:24:34. > :24:37.They will just be hanging around until American forces have gone.
:24:37. > :24:44.It's quite interesting that he now defines the mission as being what
:24:44. > :24:49.it was originally, a very long time ago, simply to deny it as a safe
:24:49. > :24:53.haven for Al-Qaeda. You know, the American public will believe that
:24:53. > :24:57.is given greater force by the fact Osama Bin Laden has been told. It's
:24:57. > :25:02.a great pity, I think, that we departed so far from that objective
:25:02. > :25:08.of denying Al-Qaeda a base in Afghanistan. Of course, any broader
:25:08. > :25:12.objective now looks rather absurd. Because Al-Qaeda is now well
:25:12. > :25:15.established in other countries. Shall we open a book on how long
:25:15. > :25:20.President Karzai will last in Kabul after the allied forces have gone?
:25:20. > :25:25.A week, 10 days, a month? I think the outlook for Afghanistan is
:25:25. > :25:29.pretty grim. Especially if you are a woman. Between now and 2005,
:25:29. > :25:33.there will be some political process. I wouldn't rule out of aka
:25:33. > :25:36.oh you don't think it's a foregone conclusion? I wouldn't rule out
:25:36. > :25:40.that a coalition could emerge between tribesmen, Taliban and
:25:40. > :25:46.Hamid Karzai. The American electoral process is taking a big
:25:46. > :25:50.role. Is it for re-election in 2012. As in this country, the war is
:25:50. > :25:54.unpopular. It would be popular in this country if Mr Cameron could
:25:55. > :25:59.speed up withdrawal as well? I wish Obama was doing it for security
:25:59. > :26:03.reasons. I suspect it's about the politics. He's going against the
:26:03. > :26:10.advice of General Petraeus, against the advice of his own retiring
:26:10. > :26:14.Defence Secretary. And joint chief of staff? Yeah. Cameron, I'm really
:26:14. > :26:20.worried about setting a date. Michael has lots of experience as
:26:20. > :26:24.Defence Secretary. When I was in Afghanistan as Home Secretary, the
:26:24. > :26:29.importance to morale of the troops of not signalling when this is
:26:29. > :26:33.going to come to one end, I think it is really important. I think the
:26:33. > :26:38.chairman of the Defence Select Committee, James Arbuthnot, is
:26:38. > :26:45.absolutely right to worry about this. Both in America and the UK,
:26:45. > :26:50.it's not doing a great deal of good for our troops' morale, or for the
:26:50. > :26:54.issues they have secured, the gains they have made. I just think it's
:26:54. > :26:59.about politics, not about security. We heard William Hague talking this
:26:59. > :27:04.morning, we will be there until 2015, then afterwards but not as a
:27:04. > :27:08.fighting capacity. Can we be blunt? The Americans set the pace on the
:27:08. > :27:14.disengagement. If the Americans are going, we have to go, they provide
:27:14. > :27:17.their whole infrastructure which all forces operate on there? We are
:27:17. > :27:20.in there because the United States I in there, we will be out of there
:27:20. > :27:25.because they are getting out of there. We will get out as quickly
:27:25. > :27:35.as them question that we are an entirely junior partner, and Thai
:27:35. > :27:38.
:27:38. > :27:42.elite -- and entirely secondary We were fighting in two theatres at
:27:42. > :27:47.the same time, at the same time as cutting the defence budget.
:27:47. > :27:53.struck by Mr Obama talking about the cost in terms of lives and in
:27:53. > :27:57.many of this twice as long as the Second World War operation. It's
:27:57. > :28:01.worth just thinking about that. He said it was time for nation-
:28:01. > :28:06.building at home. You are bound to be saying that when you are coming
:28:06. > :28:12.up for re-election and you have to 9.5% unemployment. I wonder if
:28:12. > :28:15.there is a danger at some stage if Libya will become that for others,
:28:15. > :28:19.at some stage we will think the cost is too much and it will be
:28:19. > :28:25.time for nation-building at home? We saw the cost revealed this week.
:28:25. > :28:29.It is much more than was predicted. I still support... I supported
:28:29. > :28:34.resolution 1973. I am becoming more and more concerned that this is
:28:34. > :28:39.about us supporting the weaker side in a civil war, rather than
:28:39. > :28:45.supporting a popular uprising. The longer it goes on... You are
:28:45. > :28:50.getting nervous? I am, quite frankly. I've always wondered, is
:28:50. > :28:54.it a civil war popular uprising? It looks more like the former than the
:28:54. > :28:58.actor -- latter. As former defence secretary, you had to deal with the
:28:58. > :29:04.top brass. Let me ask you two questions. Are the top brass are
:29:04. > :29:09.more outspoken than ever before? In recent times, recent memory, in our
:29:09. > :29:16.military? And was Mr Cameron right to a kind of slap them down? And I
:29:16. > :29:19.put that in quotes. Yes, they are more outspoken, no, he was wrong to
:29:19. > :29:24.slap them down. Nothing made me more annoyed than when the military
:29:24. > :29:28.spoke out of turn, and they did occasionally. What I then did was I
:29:28. > :29:32.summoned them for what was known as an interview without coffee.
:29:32. > :29:36.show you were really, really angry question are privately, they would
:29:36. > :29:41.come in and I would say, look, we are working together. We have made
:29:41. > :29:46.our decisions jointly, we have some difficulties making the decisions.
:29:46. > :29:49.We have made the decisions together and I don't expect you to speak out
:29:49. > :29:53.of line. Because of their sense of honour, they found this terribly
:29:53. > :30:01.embarrassing when they were caught out against the Secretary of State.
:30:01. > :30:08.But I think they have to be done in The phrase, I'll to the talking,
:30:08. > :30:11.they should to the fighting - was a mistake? I am afraid so. Kenneth
:30:11. > :30:16.Clarke - we saw there on our film. You are a former Home Secretary,
:30:16. > :30:20.you know what it's like. He's the Justice Secretary. He has a big
:30:20. > :30:24.part of the responsibility as you have before it was split. Did you
:30:24. > :30:28.see that U-turn coming? Did you understand that was what was going
:30:28. > :30:33.to happen? Yes. I think this is different n the sense that Cameron
:30:33. > :30:38.had a perfectly good afternoon. I didn't agree with it. He had a
:30:38. > :30:43.perfectly good argument about putting more resources into
:30:43. > :30:47.rehabilitation, et cetera. There's a �130 billion hole in his funding.
:30:47. > :30:51.This was obviously thought through. This is a case where he just seemed
:30:51. > :30:56.to be frightened of the tabloids. Frightened of the reaction. It
:30:56. > :31:01.wasn't a case where he thought this is a genuine mistake. He'd... This
:31:01. > :31:05.is the problem here, with that and the NHS. You cannot convince me
:31:05. > :31:09.that the Prime Minister wasn't absolutely clear and supportive of
:31:09. > :31:13.his Secretary of State going down that road. Now he's just pulled the
:31:13. > :31:17.rug from under them. The problem is these U-turns don't solve the
:31:17. > :31:24.problem. Having done a U-turn on the NHS, it has not solved the
:31:24. > :31:29.problem. There's a �20 billion hole. In this case there's a �120 billion
:31:29. > :31:34.black hole. These looming public sector strikes - do you agree with
:31:34. > :31:38.Ed Balls that they are walking into a Government-laid trap? I think
:31:38. > :31:42.they might be premature. My understanding is the negotiations,
:31:42. > :31:47.they are putting a lot of effort into those negoshtkwraigss. No-one
:31:47. > :31:53.from Will Hutton -- negotiations, no-one from Hutton to others are
:31:53. > :32:02.not saying it is not serious. You have to be careful about the timing
:32:02. > :32:05.of these disputes. They are well led by Brendan Barber. You are an
:32:05. > :32:09.old union leader. Should Labour show more solidarity with the
:32:09. > :32:13.unions in this? It is difficult, particularly when there is strike
:32:13. > :32:17.action and people's services are being affected. I'm with the unions
:32:17. > :32:22.on this. There is a good argument that we've done enough in terms of
:32:22. > :32:26.pensions to reduce it as a proportion of GDP. Need to do more.
:32:26. > :32:31.A 3% increase in contributions, which is a 50% in real terms,
:32:31. > :32:35.increase in country buegs, means people will leave pension
:32:35. > :32:40.schemes.Ly be the welfare bill which will have to step in.
:32:40. > :32:44.Eventually the taxpayer will have to step in. Should Mr E Miliband be
:32:44. > :32:49.allowed to appoint his own Shadow Cabinet? Absolutely. Are you with
:32:49. > :32:53.him on that? Should have done it 15 years ago. You are not that happy!
:32:53. > :32:57.Happy now. You know what people say? This week is the new
:32:57. > :33:04.rock'n'roll. It wasn't always the case, you know. Michael and I have
:33:04. > :33:10.paid our dues. For years we toured the nation in a battered touring
:33:10. > :33:17.band, playing clubs to a handful of fans. It is a desire to make a
:33:17. > :33:23.difference in our lives. Without a tail drooping anywhere in sight,
:33:23. > :33:29.how times have changed! We used to do it just for kicks. Since the BBC
:33:29. > :33:39.signed us ut, it's got so corporate, man. We decided to recreate some
:33:39. > :33:44.
:33:44. > :33:50.magic and put political music in As the mainstream hits the main
:33:50. > :33:55.stage at Glastonbury, has modern music lost its political edge?
:33:55. > :34:00.And the good old days the Sex Pistols, the Clash and Jam used
:34:00. > :34:06.music as a tool for anti- establishment protest. At fst
:34:06. > :34:14.values, they were a place -- at festivals, they were a place to
:34:14. > :34:20.break free. As for fertility rights, naked dancing and the drug-taking.
:34:20. > :34:24.As Michael Evis calls for the festival to re-claim its radical
:34:24. > :34:32.roots, is the time changing or is the future of political music just
:34:32. > :34:39.stuck in the mud? Well, am I glad I'm not there. Mr
:34:39. > :34:43.Lee, thank you for joining us. This chap Michael Evis, who is Mr
:34:43. > :34:50.Glastonbury in a way. He said this Glastonbury will be more political
:34:50. > :34:54.- there's not much evidence, is there? The thing about Glastonbury,
:34:54. > :34:58.it is such a Masai event, kit be all things to all people -- it can
:34:58. > :35:05.be all things to all people. Everything to the right of the main
:35:05. > :35:08.stage, there's young head onist dancing to fast music. To the left
:35:08. > :35:11.there's fringe theatre and political debates, like the House
:35:11. > :35:16.of Commons. I think you can make of it what you will. It is difficult
:35:16. > :35:20.for it to be politicised in the way that festivals were in the 1970s
:35:20. > :35:25.and 1980s. The kind of people who made them political do not exist
:35:25. > :35:29.any more. They were put together and staff and patronised by hippies
:35:29. > :35:35.and the peace convoy types who have been legislated out of existence.
:35:35. > :35:40.Now when you look at that news footage of people wandering into
:35:40. > :35:44.Glastonbury, they are Hunter, designer wellies. The amazing thing,
:35:44. > :35:49.it has gone full circle. There'll be a protest, as I understand it,
:35:49. > :35:55.this year. It will be a protest against Bono and U2 for not paying
:35:55. > :36:01.enough taxes in Ireland T protest will come from the fans, not the
:36:01. > :36:06.bands. That is absolutely brilian. One of the great things is --
:36:06. > :36:14.brilliant. One of the great things is unexpected things do happen.
:36:14. > :36:18.Also, U2 are really good at working out what will be attention-grabbing.
:36:18. > :36:25.Using Bono as a focus for tax evasion, given how many people do
:36:25. > :36:30.it and given how corporations do it, is a hilarious thing to do. You are
:36:30. > :36:35.an old rocker. I was a mod, not a rocker!
:36:35. > :36:43.You're a rocker. Has music become less political? I don't think so.
:36:43. > :36:47.There's a band called Everything, Everything; an album called Come
:36:47. > :36:52.alive Diana. Our Diana? It's social observation. The worst political
:36:52. > :36:59.songs are the ones that are, are the ones with politics written on
:36:59. > :37:07.them, like the protest songs from the 60s. Elvis Costello's Ship
:37:07. > :37:13.Building is where it is more subtle. I wonder whether the political
:37:13. > :37:21.music owes its again sis to more austere times, divided times like
:37:21. > :37:26.the 60s and the 707s? I think it does. It -- 70s. I think it does.
:37:27. > :37:31.There are the opportunities for the cross-platforms. The Clash, their
:37:31. > :37:36.thing was they wouldn't go on Top of the Pops T70 things was about
:37:36. > :37:45.not selling out. Now bands think, how do we get on Top of the Pops,
:37:45. > :37:52.how do we get stuff on a -- an advert? You are a major expert on
:37:52. > :37:56.this - what is your view? We have at least ten seconds! My view is it
:37:56. > :38:01.is puzzling that youth is so unpolitical at the moment. When you
:38:01. > :38:05.think about all the provocations. You were mentioning more
:38:05. > :38:10.ideologically divided times. There have been rarely more times than
:38:10. > :38:14.now as in the United States. We fought wars in Iraq, Afghanistan,
:38:14. > :38:19.Libya. Yet nothing has happened N the 60s, the music and the feeling
:38:19. > :38:22.of young people went hand in hand. In the United States in the 1960s,
:38:22. > :38:30.students actually died in demonstrations. They were gunned
:38:30. > :38:34.down. There was a big thing happening. There is no sign of life
:38:34. > :38:40.in youth, politically speaking at all. When you talk about political
:38:40. > :38:44.music, it's a one-party state. It's left-wing, political protest. Music
:38:44. > :38:48.today is really corporate - it's business. They don't kind of go too
:38:48. > :38:53.well together? It is still interesting. Political music used
:38:53. > :38:58.to be of the left. It is strange now that because we have youthful
:38:58. > :39:02.politicianen the right, they try to claim it and yet a lot of the bands
:39:02. > :39:05.that David Cameron says he loves are forced to issue an official
:39:05. > :39:11.statement saying they hope he stops listening to them. When David
:39:11. > :39:15.Cameron tried to get photographed outside a Salford's lad's club,
:39:15. > :39:18.Hazel Blears put the lain into action to make sure there was no
:39:18. > :39:24.way he could stand outside it without there being a placard. It
:39:24. > :39:31.is a weird thing. Shall we be honest - the sad truth is
:39:31. > :39:36.Glastonbury is part of the summer season. It supthere with Ascot,
:39:36. > :39:41.Wimbledon.... If people object to it, what is difference to ten years
:39:41. > :39:47.ago is there are a vast majority of festivals. All over the countries,
:39:47. > :39:55.there are different ones. Unlike Ascot they don't fight each other
:39:55. > :40:01.with champagne bottles! Where does Wagner fit into this?
:40:01. > :40:09.You are not referring to the one who died in the 180s? Not the one
:40:09. > :40:14.that -- 1870s? Not that one. If you want to hear about political music
:40:14. > :40:20.I will tell you about him. We have run out of time. We have a quiz.
:40:20. > :40:27.You know we are all tennis-mad on This Week, we know the names of two
:40:27. > :40:33.or three of the top players. That is that guy Borg somebody and
:40:33. > :40:38.McEnroe, and Connors - we know them all. We think of not spending two
:40:38. > :40:43.whole weeks every year for indulging our passion for all
:40:43. > :40:47.things Wimbledon. How better than to get things flowing than a tennis
:40:47. > :40:51.political quiz, with world number one Austin. Oh, yes, Tracey, first
:40:51. > :40:55.question? When David Cameron challenged
:40:55. > :41:01.British number one, Andy Murray to a tennis match, where did they
:41:01. > :41:05.play? A, at Wimbledon? B, Queen's Club. C, Downing Street state
:41:05. > :41:11.dining room? Answer?
:41:11. > :41:16.Queen's Club. Let's get the right answer. The answer is, C, in the
:41:16. > :41:24.Downing Street state dining, room, complete with chandelier. See how
:41:24. > :41:30.useless they are. Another question. A City bankers paid �160,000 to
:41:30. > :41:33.play tennis at Chequers with which politician? A, Winston Churchill. B
:41:33. > :41:38.Margaret Thatcher or C Tony Blair? Tony Blair.
:41:38. > :41:42.I think they have got this one. Give us the answer. The answer is,
:41:42. > :41:48.of course, Tony Blair, at a charity auction in 2004. That was easy.
:41:49. > :41:53.Let's see if we have the third question. When David Cameron played
:41:53. > :42:01.Nick Clegg at tennis, David Cameron won. What did Cameron claim was the
:42:01. > :42:07.reason for his victory? A, he was more wielly? B, a better cheat than
:42:07. > :42:17.Nick Clegg? C, his racket was much bigger than Nick Clegg's?
:42:17. > :42:21.Come on? A, wielly. The answer is? The answer is, A, he was more wiley
:42:21. > :42:24.than Nick Clegg, as Nic is finding out to his cost in Government.
:42:24. > :42:31.There you go. Better than usual. Thank you for
:42:31. > :42:38.being with us. Thanks for having us. That's your lot for tonight. With
:42:38. > :42:42.Glastonbury upon us, sit back and watch as the funkiest diva struts
:42:42. > :42:46.her stuff. The biggest soul sister on planet Parliament didn't
:42:46. > :42:53.disappoint. No, I am not talking about Beyonce. I don't know what
:42:53. > :42:57.she is! I'm talking about Betty Boothroyd, when she took centre
:42:57. > :43:01.stage to tear a strip. You could hear the Deputy Prime Minister
:43:01. > :43:06.weeping all the way from his Downing Street broom cupboard.
:43:06. > :43:11.Night, night, night, don't let the former Speaker of the House bite.
:43:11. > :43:16.Our fatal flaw is we are not directly accountable to the British
:43:16. > :43:20.people. That's absolutely true. Nor is the monarchy. Nor is the